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Music theory





VladimirIsayev
What do you think about music theory? What do you think about the old style composition: baroque, classicism, romanticism? Do you feel that nowadays musicians need more music theory in their “works”? Do you separate show business from music or they are the same thing to you? How do you feel about “ass-shake-ism” in nowadays music?
VladimirIsayev

Find a musician
Peterssidan
I think music is only the sound. If someone shakes their ass it's not part of the music, but it can accompany music and change the experience for the audience, for better or for worse. I don't have much of an opinion about it, but I don't usually watch music videos or scene performances.

I don't listen much to classical music. It's not bad but when I listen to music I prefer having a voice to listen to and maybe sing along with. Classical music is more suitable for background music in a game or movie.

I'm far from being an expert on music theory (I don't even play an instrument) but I thought all musicians used music theory. Do you mean if they should stick more to the "rules"? If it sounds good I don' see why. If it sounds good someone should study it and come up with a theory for why is sounds good and then it becomes music theory, right?
VladimirIsayev
Peterssidan wrote:
I think music is only the sound. If someone shakes their ass it's not part of the music, but it can accompany music and change the experience for the audience, for better or for worse. I don't have much of an opinion about it, but I don't usually watch music videos or scene performances.

I don't listen much to classical music. It's not bad but when I listen to music I prefer having a voice to listen to and maybe sing along with. Classical music is more suitable for background music in a game or movie.

I'm far from being an expert on music theory (I don't even play an instrument) but I thought all musicians used music theory. Do you mean if they should stick more to the "rules"? If it sounds good I don' see why. If it sounds good someone should study it and come up with a theory for why is sounds good and then it becomes music theory, right?


There are many classical compositions with voice: chorales, cantatas, operas, romances etc...

All nowadays "musicians" just play random notes. They call it improvisation. Rules are based on the physics of sound. The thing is that a sound engineer can record any noise and it will be good. It is about sound recording not music composing. And their extraordinary performances serve to get more attention/viewers/listeners.
Ankhanu
VladimirIsayev wrote:
What do you think about music theory? ... Do you feel that nowadays musicians need more music theory in their “works”? ... How do you feel about “ass-shake-ism” in nowadays music?

There's a bit of danger in this kind of thinking, and views on what is and is not "music" based on classical biases. I mean, no matter what music you're listening to, it is steeped in theory... it may be using some basic concepts, but theory is always demonstrated within it. There's a lot of theory and psychology that goes into "ass-shake-ism", and the writers of those music styles rely heavily upon theory that bridges the ear and actually inducing a feeling in the listener. That connection between the music and the listener is hard to achieve, and often music that is written specifically to explore concepts of theory falls flat in that regard.

Pop music, for example, for all of its flaws and vapid elements, is often jammed with somewhat interesting theory when you bypass the performer, and actually listen to the melodies, timbres, and in particular the rhythms being used. Very rarely these days are pop songs just simple 4/4 rhythms through each of their instrumental or vocal layers. I mean, I kinda hate everything on popular radio, but, props where they're due, right?

VladimirIsayev wrote:
What do you think about the old style composition: baroque, classicism, romanticism?

I appreciate them, but they're rarely what I want to listen to.
VladimirIsayev wrote:
Do you separate show business from music or they are the same thing to you?

I think for most, the performance is far more important than the music... but that could just be my semi-elitist bias Razz
Music is music, the industry is another beast that makes use of it. I mean, suggesting that music and the business of music are the same ignores all the people out there making music without any intent to make profit from it; those of us who create and share for free, for the love of it... and those who create, never to share it. Of course, the importance (historic, perhaps?) of the business of music since recording and album distribution became a real thing in the prior century, and its impact upon music, and culture in general can't be understated.

VladimirIsayev wrote:
All nowadays "musicians" just play random notes. They call it improvisation. Rules are based on the physics of sound. The thing is that a sound engineer can record any noise and it will be good. It is about sound recording not music composing. And their extraordinary performances serve to get more attention/viewers/listeners.

I really disagree with this.
I mean, yeah, there are some genres or components of songs where improvisation are heavily used, but to say that it's random, is, well, quite ignorant. Take jazz, for example. Jazz makes heavy use of improvisation, but it also requires some of the most advanced understanding of theory and composition to do well; without those foundations, the improvisations will go no where and sound terrible. The improvisation works because the performers know the language of music and how notes work together... or don't work together in order to make use of dissonance within an appropriate context.

If you don't think that symphonies make use of "extraordinary performances" to get more attention, views and listeners, well... I don't know why you think they perform Razz
VladimirIsayev
Ankhanu wrote:
Take jazz, for example. Jazz makes heavy use of improvisation, but it also requires some of the most advanced understanding of theory and composition to do well; without those foundations, the improvisations will go no where and sound terrible.

They sound terrible. Jazz is a ... I don't have words for it.
Do you really think that Rammstein, Britney Spears, Shakira, Beyonce, Metallica etc use music theory? Maybe they are just a bunch of alcoholics and narcomaniacs who occupied show business?
What is music theory to you?
VladimirIsayev

Some modern composers...
Ankhanu
VladimirIsayev wrote:
They sound terrible. Jazz is a ... I don't have words for it.

That's a matter of personal taste, not a reflection of whether or not there is use of music theory within the genre. Very different.
VladimirIsayev wrote:
Do you really think that Rammstein, Britney Spears, Shakira, Beyonce, Metallica etc use music theory? Maybe they are just a bunch of alcoholics and narcomaniacs who occupied show business?

Of course they use music theory... I don't think it's possible to write music without it, whether one can articulate the concepts being used in classical language or not. Of course, I'm not sure if Britney Spears or Shakira actually write any of their songs (they might, I don't know), but the professional song writers writing the songs they perform definitely have a strong basis in music theory (the majority of them are music school trained professionals).
Again, don't conflate the performance of music with the writing of music... they are different.

VladimirIsayev wrote:
What is music theory to you?

The structural concepts and relationships between pitch, timbre and timing of sounds in music; music being (in short, and most inclusively) organized sound in time. Music theory may or may not be academic.

I feel it prudent to ask you the same question; I have a feeling you're using a very restricted definition of music theory Razz
VladimirIsayev
Ankhanu wrote:
Of course they use music theory...

They don't.
Ankhanu wrote:
I feel it prudent to ask you the same question; I have a feeling you're using a very restricted definition of music theory Razz

I'm not using a restricted definition.
Why do you defense those people? Have you tried to compare classical music with this modern noise? Also, you sound like a liberal.
Those modern... performers offense me. I think that they are the disgrace to Western culture.
Ankhanu
I suggest engaging in discourse, rather than just making assertions Wink
VladimirIsayev
Ankhanu wrote:
I suggest engaging in discourse, rather than just making assertions Wink

They don't have voice leading in their music. They don't have themes, counterpoint, chord progressions, modulations, phrases, episodes and other parts of the composition. They don't use any kind of harmony rules.
They just piss on each other and shake their asses to impress the audience.
Ankhanu
Have you ever attempted to break down songs from any of these bands/performers?

Again, don't confuse the performance of music with the music itself. I suggest focusing on the music rather than any stage antics.
VladimirIsayev
Ankhanu wrote:
Have you ever attempted to break down songs from any of these bands/performers?

I have. What about you?
Ankhanu wrote:
Again, don't confuse the performance of music with the music itself. I suggest focusing on the music rather than any stage antics.

The problem is that there is no music. Only performance.
Ankhanu
I think we're at an impasse Razz
VladimirIsayev
Those guys used a very restricted definition of music theory.
deanhills
I don't know much about music theory, but I find Mozart and Bach unrestricted. Like trying to follow the notes of Mozart is like going on dizzy roads to dizzy heights that never seem to end. Like magic stuff with millions of notes in quick succession of one another, but still in perfect harmony. Bach is a smoother version - but completely unrestricted, like so many people can do improvisations of Bach's preludes and fugues, they have limitless possibilities. His preludes and fugues inspire people to write music.



OK now see what Bobby McFerrin does with Bach - like there has to be something in Bach's music theory that has limitless possibilities:



Here Bobby Ferrin does live music theory Smile



By the way I'm just as inspired by Gary Moore of Parisienne Walkways. I'm not sure what kind of music theory he used, I'd imagine he'd have started classical at one stage, but some of his compositions knocked my socks off. So does some of the works of Brian May of Queen, who I think is working on a PhD in music. I can imagine him learning classical music theory as well.

Then there's this musician that has me inspired as wel - Eicca Toppinen of Apocalyptica. I'm certain he must come from classical beginnings. Here is a discussion about music theory with the band:



Wonder what music theory Eicca Toppinen used for his composition of Wagner Reloaded a couple or more years ago:



And Yngwie Malmsteen definitely came from classical beginnings, although lost me once he went to the US. This is one of his compositions around 1998.

VladimirIsayev
deanhills wrote:
Mozart and Bach - unrestricted.

Facepalm

Maybe it's better to confess all mistakes and stop the degradation.
deanhills wrote:
bobby macferrin - Ave Maria

Stop it, please. It offenses me.
Yngwie Malmsteen is a poseur.
All those people bought their glory. They don't care about music. They only care about money. They fool us. They humiliate us.
VladimirIsayev
European culture is dead. Europe belongs to arabs, gays, africans, alcoholics, narcomaniacs, lesbians, pedophiles. They rape European Marias... I regret that I spent my time learning English reading about European culture. It was a waste of time.
loveandormoney
VladimirIsayev wrote:
What do you think about music theory? What do you think about the old style composition: baroque, classicism, romanticism? Do you feel that nowadays musicians need more music theory in their “works”? Do you separate show business from music or they are the same thing to you? How do you feel about “ass-shake-ism” in nowadays music?


We go some steps further:

How about the music in Rome, 2,000 years ago.
How about music in China, 3,000 years ago
Music in America, 500 years before Columbus arrived.

Very interesting to watch that in Cuba.
VladimirIsayev
loveandormoney wrote:
How about the music in Rome, 2,000 years ago.
How about music in China, 3,000 years ago
Music in America, 500 years before Columbus arrived.

You are trying to say that all noise is music.
Peterssidan
Nothing is fixed. Everything evolves. Clumping things together and calling it European culture is too simplistic. There has never been one single culture that all of Europe lived by.

I don't really understand your definition of music. Is everything you don't like not music? What has money and alcohol got to do with it? It's got to be music nevertheless.

I like programming and I like free open source software. I don't like proprietary software but I don't go around saying Microsoft Word is just random bits and that it's not worthy of being called a computer program. It's a computer program even though I don't like it. Same with music.
VladimirIsayev
Peterssidan wrote:
Nothing is fixed. Everything evolves.

Degradation is not evolution.
Peterssidan wrote:
Same with music.

It is not the same thing.
Ankhanu
There's apparently no honest desire for discussion here, just an intent to state an opinion and be "right" without ever attempting to explain, or demonstrate validity. Add in the bigoted commentary a couple posts up, this thread is over.

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