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What is love like today?





Haiku2016
OK. Let's get this straight. I'm from the last century, y'know, when marriage was forever and that sort of thing. It's not that I disapprove of what goes on with people today but I don't get it. It seems that having sex is not as big a deal as it used to be. I understand that most people would have lost their virginity before they get married. And we are tolerant to all kinds of sexual relationships. So, all well and good.

So:
1. Why is marriage still so popular? I would have thought it died with the sixties.
2. Why are people still so affected by infidelity? I mean, if having sex is not something you reserve for the one and only, then doesn't it stand to reason that most people will have sex with someone else if they feel unhappy in their relationship and need some comforting?

I get the other bits. Like divorce being bad for the children, and pedophilia being morally apprehensible, and so on. There are good reasons why some morality is needed. But I don't get what love means today. In those good old days, love is just for that one person and so, of course, you need to get married and being faithful is everything. But we all know it didn't work and there were many people who were unhappy in their marriages and were unfaithful anyway. So, it's great that we don't have those rules anymore. But the new freedom is not enabling us to be happier, to have better relationships and to be more understanding of one another.

What is love like today?
loveandormoney
Quote:
1. Why is marriage still so popular? I would have thought it died with the sixties.


Some sentences are wrong. This for example. The majority in Western Countries is living alone und is proud to be single.
They see a relationship as prison.
Others jump from bed to bed
66% of married people love and do sx with strangers or in red light.

We are now in the time after Disney love.
Its reality.
And its your life to enjoy it or teach alone the world like a Single.
Haiku2016
Hi there, @loveandormoney. Your name is as intriguing as your answer. I'm not here to judge nor to some extent quarrel over statistics. I'm just wondering if what you describe constitutes love to you. To some extent, I think living a single life is not really love, in the romantic sense. Nothing wrong with living a single life, just that it's not addressing the question: what is love, or is there still a need for life long partnership? Or maybe it's more that romantic love is no longer relevant. If that's the case, great. I'm just curious. For example, one of the recent hot topics on sexuality is polyamory. What're your thoughts on that?

Sure, different strokes for different folks. To some extent, I kinda expected this. A broadening of what is acceptable. I'm more surprised that the tradition of marriage is still as popular as it is.
Ankhanu
Haiku2016 wrote:
OK. Let's get this straight. I'm from the last century, y'know, when marriage was forever and that sort of thing.
We grew up in different centuries last century Razz

Haiku2016 wrote:
So:
1. Why is marriage still so popular? I would have thought it died with the sixties.
2. Why are people still so affected by infidelity? I mean, if having sex is not something you reserve for the one and only, then doesn't it stand to reason that most people will have sex with someone else if they feel unhappy in their relationship and need some comforting?

I get the other bits. Like divorce being bad for the children, and pedophilia being morally apprehensible, and so on. There are good reasons why some morality is needed. But I don't get what love means today. In those good old days, love is just for that one person and so, of course, you need to get married and being faithful is everything. But we all know it didn't work and there were many people who were unhappy in their marriages and were unfaithful anyway. So, it's great that we don't have those rules anymore. But the new freedom is not enabling us to be happier, to have better relationships and to be more understanding of one another.

What is love like today?

Many cultures have a very strong institution of monogamy, which is likely somewhat based in biology (though there are very, VERY few truly monogamous species, and we're not one of them), though is heavily enforced by culture... it's a meme. I really don't think that anything's changed with people, nothing has changed with what love is... what's changed is perhaps views on duty versus personal happiness.

I'd argue that (romantic) love is still generally for one person today, just as it was in the past. The difference is that we accept and recognize that feelings and realities can change over time; that love can die, and that when it dies it's healthier to move on than to just stay calm and carry on, dutifully maintaining the institution, even when the institution isn't serving anyone's best interest. this isn't a bad thing; what's the value of a marriage that lasts, but in which the individuals are miserable and sometimes don't even like one another.

I really don't think infidelity is any more prevalent now than in the past... though we are more willing to discuss topics centered around sex than we were. Less of a change in frequency and more of a change in reporting. Monogamy is a social contract, one built on a foundation of trust. Infidelity is a breach of that trust, and that's why it affects people. It's not about the sex, or whether or not someone has had multiple partners through their lives, it's entirely about the breach of trust. The sex itself is basically immaterial.

Love today is what it's always been, an institution of trust and admiration. It's as fragile and enduring as it's ever been... it's the social accessories around it that have ever so slightly shifted.
Haiku2016
Ankhanu wrote:
Many cultures have a very strong institution of monogamy, which is likely somewhat based in biology (though there are very, VERY few truly monogamous species, and we're not one of them), though is heavily enforced by culture... it's a meme.

Interesting point here, Ankhanu. If we are not biologically monogamous, why institute monogamy?

Quote:
I'd argue that (romantic) love is still generally for one person today, just as it was in the past.

So, we're monogamous? Or is monogamy an ideal? Why? Is monogamy a social solution, eg. it's needed because children need parents to be there to take care of term, or we need someone to take care of us as we grow old? This argument is easily disputed. Is it biological? Hardwired into us?

Actually, very few societies are monogamous. The Jews weren't, neither are the Muslims. Having mistresses, concubines, harems, etc. is practiced nearly everywhere. Prostitution, the oldest profession, probably serves more married men than singles. Certainly, it's polygamy more than polyandry. But monogamy, to my understanding, is actually almost exclusively a Christian ideal. Wasn't in the Old Testament.

Quote:
The difference is that we accept and recognize that feelings and realities can change over time; that love can die, and that when it dies it's healthier to move on

That's exactly what I thought. At least, that's the prevalent view in the sixties. My parents didn't get along and I was glad they separated. Why marry? Just live together as long as you love one another. When I got married, I certainly didn't think that I'd stay if the marriage didn't work. And there were times when I felt staying in the marriage was suffocating me. I realised now that marriage is a contract precisely because of this. It held me to the relationship whether I wanted to or not. It also gave me boundaries because, at the back of my mind, I couldn't take our quarrels to a point of no return.

Quote:
I really don't think infidelity is any more prevalent now than in the past... though we are more willing to discuss topics centered around sex than we were.

I agree. And I think we should. I feel though, that we're not addressing the problem.

Quote:
It's not about the sex

So, why do we expect sexual fidelity? Especially since it is so acceptable to have sex outside marriage and even have recreational sex. Are we as upset if our partners went to our best friend and just talked to him about our problems? Why can't we say to our partners, look, I know we're going through a bad patch. Go sleep with my brother and he'll help you through this. I'll sleep with your best friend. I trust them both to want to keep us together. Why is this a weird suggestion?

Quote:
Love today is what it's always been, an institution of trust and admiration. It's as fragile and enduring as it's ever been... it's the social accessories around it that have ever so slightly shifted.

I think my question is, are love and marriage two sides of a coin? Marriage is necessary because it reminds us that love is, or should be, forever. Like I said, I think this is an exclusively Christian thing. Every other culture, society or religion I know of does not make monogamy as big a deal. The Western society is based on Christianity, I get that. But we've moved so far away from accepting Christianity as the foundation of our society. We do not say that something should be this way just because Jesus said so.

So, I don't get it. Something should change. If marriage is not the answer, why can't we come up with a better solution? Or have we got a better solution but I'm just not aware of it?
Haiku2016
Plus, and I apologize if I offend anyone, why is the gay community fighting for marriage? And why are we stopping them? In the first place, I don't understand why they would want it, and for the second, if they do, I don't see why not?

Just so I make myself clear, my question is what is love like today. There is a Western tradition, I believe stemming from Christianity, that love is monogamous. But we're no longer ruled by Christianity. So, why marry? And does love work without marriage? I'm not arguing for or against any position.
loveandormoney
Sorry

You did not understand. People who live alone and who wants to live alone they dont do love.
The husband bringing now Sunday morning 7b am breakfast for his darling in the bed: He is doing love.

I say love is fun.
Whats Your opinion.
Is love boring and TV watching better to enjoy 80 years of life?
Haiku2016
loveandormoney wrote:
Sorry
You did not understand. People who live alone and who wants to live alone they dont do love.
The husband bringing now Sunday morning 7b am breakfast for his darling in the bed: He is doing love.

I think you're being sarcastic here. At least it sounds really silly when you put it that way. Of course, single people are 'doing love' as much as 'the husband bringing breakfast for his darling'. I do apologize if I came across as being that naive. Perhaps I am. But I don't mean it that way.

Quote:
I say love is fun.
Whats Your opinion.

Yes. And no. It needs to be fun, or else why would anyone fall in love? Long term love, however, the kind between parents and children, or between couples (gay or otherwise), can be very rough. I've come to believe that the institution of marriage existed to emphasize that commitment, that love needs to be strong to see you through the hard times. But it doesn't work. We get abusive and are unfaithful anyway, despite the marriage institution.

Quote:
Is love boring and TV watching better to enjoy 80 years of life?

Haha. I dunno. We need to each decide for ourselves. I chose marriage and to stay and make it work despite some very difficult times. I came really really close to calling it quits. And I probably would have, if I weren't married. But I was brought up to believe in this. The world has changed so much since then. And I grew up in the sixties where all these traditions and institutions are questioned. I'm just curious what happened since then.
loveandormoney
You are married.
You are happy.
My questions is: What is the fun to live alone.
The thing is
in the Western World You have the free choice to marry
even You can marry a man as a man.

So where is the problem to sit together Sunday morning
and have fun together having breakfast
instead alone watching the wall.

Regards
Haiku2016
loveandormoney wrote:
You are married.
You are happy.
My questions is: What is the fun to live alone.
The thing is
in the Western World You have the free choice to marry
even You can marry a man as a man.

So where is the problem to sit together Sunday morning
and have fun together having breakfast
instead alone watching the wall.

Regards


Dunno about you, but it doesn't seem to be as simple as that. If it were, there wouldn't be so many divorces.
Ankhanu
Not marrying and living alone are not the same thing. There are many who choose not to go through with a marriage ceremony who are in strong, long-term relationships... There are those who live alone, but, it's not as simple as loveandormoney likes to think. There is naivety at play here... but I'm not sure it's on your end, Haiku Razz

Quote:
Quote:
Love today is what it's always been, an institution of trust and admiration. It's as fragile and enduring as it's ever been... it's the social accessories around it that have ever so slightly shifted.

I think my question is, are love and marriage two sides of a coin? Marriage is necessary because it reminds us that love is, or should be, forever. Like I said, I think this is an exclusively Christian thing. Every other culture, society or religion I know of does not make monogamy as big a deal. The Western society is based on Christianity, I get that. But we've moved so far away from accepting Christianity as the foundation of our society. We do not say that something should be this way just because Jesus said so.

So, I don't get it. Something should change. If marriage is not the answer, why can't we come up with a better solution? Or have we got a better solution but I'm just not aware of it?


Love and marriage aren't necessarily connected, though often are. Love doesn't require marriage and marriages don't require love. Marriage is just a contract. Like any contract, there are difficulties and consequences in breaking or dissolving it; yeah, that'll keep many couples together when they might otherwise dissolve, but that's not always a good thing. The idea that love is forever is fallacious, love can be fleeting, and it can endure; there are many kinds and lengths of love.

I wouldn't say we've moved very far from the Christian bases for many of our Western cultural practices; sure, we've recognized how Christianity has coloured our history, but in many ways, we're very much glued to its influence... these things take a lot of time to change, and require a will to change them; we haven't seen a lot of either yet. While we (some of us) may not say that something should be because God or Jesus say it should be, it's hard to dump the historic baggage as a culture; we might not recognize the "authority", but that doesn't mean that we've abandoned the lesson.

There may well be better solutions, but, there can never be an universal solution... marriage was kind of set up as one, and it just isn't Razz Different types of people will have different types of relationships. Some will be fleeting, some will endure... some will be fine without social/legal contracts, others require them. Perhaps a mild relationship anarchy is the answer... in which couples (or more than couples, as the case may be) deem and decide what works best for them.

Quote:
It's not about the sex
Why can't we say to our partners, look, I know we're going through a bad patch. Go sleep with my brother and he'll help you through this. I'll sleep with your best friend. I trust them both to want to keep us together. Why is this a weird suggestion?[/quote]
Some people can... most people can't Razz Again, cultural baggage, expectations and puritanical views on sex give the act far more power than it should have, and it's difficult to move past that.
Haiku2016
Many thanks for this, Ankhanu. Best answer I got so far. To summarise, I guess we're still experimenting with options. The most interesting comment is that love can be fleeting or enduring. For me, I didn't expect it to be enduring. I wasn't ready to put in the effort to make it enduring. Yet it was, and I did. What held me to it was marriage. I was too conservative, I guess, to break away. Despite the sacrifices, I'm glad I stayed.

Thank you, everyone, for writing in. I've gotten the answer I wanted. Ankhanu, I think, spoke for everyone and summarized it well. Many thanks.
loveandormoney
Quote:

unno about you, but it doesn't seem to be as simple as that. If it were, there wouldn't be so many divorces.



It is easy:

1/3 of the relationships are happy
2/3 are fighting and or doing divorce

What is the difference?
Education.
A good husband is not educating the bad husband is educating.

So
dont educate and You have a happy marriage.

Educate and scream and punish like every divorced relationship
then marriage is bleeding.

So best thing for today is;:
Stop punishing Your darling.
Become happy.
Do love.
Not insult.
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