I am a guy come from China.
I'd like to say something about democracy and dictatorship.
Different with many my congeners, and many of you maybe, I actually do not think democracy is absolutely better than dictatorship in politics.
China is a giant nation with thousands years of dictatorship - the nation was controled by different emperores.
In ancient China, there were many "good" emperors who managed the country and made it prosperous times. So do the ancient Rome, Egypt etc. in the west.
What I want to say is that in brief:
1. If the dictator is a good one, he can make the government run much more effective.
In democracy, things need to be decided by the public are actually blind - many voters may not know much about the topic or politician he votes. It has been questioned in the other topic in this forum - "to vote or not to vote". That is right, in many times, we did not have choice to get what we really need - We can hardly say that our rights have been ensured in this situations.
The politic system of China now is a collective dictatorship - not controled by a sigle person but a single party. Many friends believe that a multiparty political system might be better for the people.
I don't think so.
The reason is not complex - China is a nation with a tradition of dictatorship, most of its citizens do not know how to exert their rights. Many thought democracy is that one can do what he want to do. So when the governors showed enlightened, there will soon be a time of chaos in the public. The status of nowaday Taiwan is a very good example.
(to be continued)
I disgree your opinion.i am also come from China .
dictatorship is very bad,democracy is bad,too.but when
existing a better polictical system ,worse system
should be get rid of gradually.
dictatorship is only adapt to manage war time,i think so.
dictatorship government's essence is not respond for people,so it's action is uncertainty. so that the world turn to more unsafe ,especially mankind at nuclear times.
Continued 01
It was said that there are thousand political parties in nowaday Taiwan - they may be divided into two or three groups by their political opinions, but they can hardly agree with each other. The reason is that, all the leaders of the parties want to be the No.1.
Haha!
China is now enjoying a good time of growth and prosperity. This big change in direction from the old times is not simply due to a sudden enlightment of their dictators.
This change is simply due to the fact that China leaders were smart enough to understand that communist ideology was not working and the entire world was supporting the decline of communism.
In order to detain their power communist leaders realized that life condition of their citizens had to be improved. Basically they gave up the control of economy "comunist style" turning it into a full capitalist model.
They however did not change anything as far as the political control is concerned. They will not turn their comunist dictatorship in a democracy.
As long as the Chinese people is happy with making money and not being involved in the "res publica" well this new style commies will be able to govern the country unchallenged.
Chine people are used to be ruled un-democratically. Their history is proof. I believe their atitude is about making money and accumulate wealth. Look at Singapore, another fake democracy. People are sufficiently happy of their status quo , as long as they can make money in a ggod economy. No one, reaaly challenge the system.
Probably American or European people are more prone to personal freedom than their Asian counterpart.........
| intle wrote: |
I am a guy {afraid of execution} come from China.
I'd like to {reiterate the party line} about democracy and dictatorship.
Different with many my congeners, and many of you maybe, I {profess for the safety of my family that} democracy is [not] absolutely better than dictatorship in politics. |
Oh, are you in China now?
| Quote: |
| China is a giant nation with thousands years of dictatorship - the nation was controled by different emperores. |
true that.
| Quote: |
| In ancient China, there were many "good" emperors |
Good? Good for whom?
| Quote: |
| who managed the country and made {themselves} prosperous |
Yes, dictators grow prosperous at the expense of the oppressed. Take a look at North Korea.
| Quote: |
1. If the dictator is {ruthless}, he can make the government run much more effective. |
Yes, powerful fascists can optimize the system at the expense of freedom. More fascism however is not better.
| Quote: |
| In democracy, things need to be decided by the public are actually blind - many voters may not know much about the topic |
Ignorant free people are still free people.
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.i'd have to say i agree with gonzo
well put
| Quote: |
1. If the dictator is {ruthless}, he can make the government run much more effective. |
Yes, powerful fascists can optimize the system at the expense of freedom. More fascism however is not better.
Gonzo,
Could you please explain what do you mean for FASCISM ?
It is a weel abused word and seldom used correctly in my opinion.
Wrongly associated to dictatorship.Let me say something on this subject. I think Democracy is a really really bad form of government system, BUT (don't shout at me yet) the best compared to all others that have ever been practically tested.
If you look at history you will realize that systems of government which were ruled by only one (emperor, king, dictator or whatever) or a small group of people (nobility, communist committee or whatever) even if they started out with good intentions ended up working for their own profit. And always the guy on the street had to pay for it.
Democracy gives the people a vote and that is where I see the problem. In a Democracy the majority of people decides what should be done but in my humble opinion the majority doesn't have a clue about what is the right thing to be done. People believe a lot of stuff when you tell them in the right way as election campaigns show.
Anyway, I think being governed by a lot of stupid and easy to mislead people is still better than by a dictator who will just do what he wants.
Here's a thought. How bout you Chinese get an education and stop taking the high paying American jobs.. You wonder why people are so pissed with GW Bush. The source is losing their jobs to overseas cheap ass labor like yours.
If I were prez I'd go all out on a military offensive vs. China and force all nations over there not to sell anything here! 
I can hardly say anything more.
Thanks all for attention!
I'd like to talk about the PROMLEM not the current political system itself - not because of anything, just want to find the best way for managing a nation.
Let's see the status of US(or any such notion else - only for sample). Many may agree with that it is a very democratic nation. How it runs? Seemed everyone has the same power in election - actually, far not that - the governors never care much about the poor people. It's a government of the wealthy, A general employee and the great moneybags say the same thing, it's influence never be the same. Why the two parties have their own financial supporters? They offer money only for charity, for fun? NO, I cannot believe so!
OK, actually, I mentioned the deep nature of so called DEMOCRACY, it's just a show off of different interest groups. Bush used the money from munitioners he must do his best to pay back by the government finance, or, there will be no one else want to support him anymore.
It's a little bit go astray from the main topic, but worth to have it clearfied about DEMOCRASY.
| tribe wrote: |
Here's a thought. How bout you Chinese get an education and stop taking the high paying American jobs.. You wonder why people are so pissed with GW Bush. The source is losing their jobs to overseas cheap *** labor like yours.
If I were prez I'd go all out on a military offensive vs. China and force all nations over there not to sell anything here! |
Well this is an opinion too !!!
However if the Chinese get an education they will not only take away low paid jobs in the US but also highly paid jobs.
What is happening with China now already happened with Japan, Korea and Taiwan. Look at history in S.E. Asia in the past 35 years.
The difference is that China has 1.3 billion people and this process whew a country has competitively cheap labour force did not last that long in Japan, Korea or Taiwan because their economies and living standard , therefore labour costs, improved very quickly.
The same thing will happen with China, but it will take a long time. If the western countries do not find a way to become more efficient than China and India soon, yhere will be very difficult times for low end income workers all over the world.
I think your president would secretly love the idea to take military action against China, if not only to please his friends who manufacture armaments. However this is going to remain one of his secret dreams for a while.Hello,
Bcause someone has ruled your country for so long it does not mean his ideas are the right ones for your country. Just because your people are not used to choosing what is best for them it does not mean they are not going to make the right choice in the future. Democracy gives you the chance of making mistakes and fixing them with your vote. It´s not perfect but your oppinion can make a difference in the end.
Your country is wonderful but I belive Democracy is coming your way too, it´s just a matter of time!
Everything will go well.We need more time,it is a endless course.
What I really want to say?
In brief, I want to say is that:
What ever the system of the government is not that important.
The WISDOM and MORAL CHARACTER are most important QUALITIES the governors should HAVE. I have to say that most politicians are wisdom but less moral 
We really need knowledgable experts with virtue to manage our country. It is much betterrrrr than any politician who was elected by 49% or more percentage of blackballs after months' even year's boasting and fawning without a firm and reasonablestandpoint. This kind of so called DEMOCRACY is a kind of blind and fatuous. It is not good at all.
It will be a long way from the beginning to take me here, so I'd like to brief here and would like friends offer opinions.
Last edited by intle on Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:20 am; edited 8 times in total To the above view of point, I have to say:
the central government (not specificly any person) now running China is very good one, better than most of the governors before.
I do know there are many problems exist widely in the country - it is not the faulty of the superior but the immoralty of the people in the system
- any person or system of governing cannot wipe it out
- I believe corruption in every government level is widely exist in the world. Anyone cannot except - this is the nature of human being - so build a good control and monitoring system to decrease it is the only we can do.
Of cause, the well conduct of the government is nothing to do with Communism but free economy and EXPERT DICTATORSHIP - I'd like to name it so personally.
In nowadays China,if your English is not good,that mean you have to face a filter and raped and powelful nation system to stop you get right and all-sides news and information,this is your admired expert dictators?funny!
Without heavy cost for lots of Chinese people (poor and misery fate) at 1960s-1970s,even thirty millions lifes, your admired good dictators free will to change his extreme action way?
Who know history can not replay?
Shortsighted and satisfied reality is dictators's best friend.
I am excited to see this debate because too much of the world loks at things only their way (people like Tribe embarrass the rest of us).
Dictatorship, if it is enloightened and benevolent, can be the best, but if it is not, it can be the worst. There needs to be a process for change and that is what Western 'democracy' is. In fact it is not a real democracy (rule by the people), but actually the elected government is a temporary dictatorship of often one party, but one that has limits.
Is there something in between?
Hi ppl,
i think tat before experiencing u cant comment on any political system n even though all hav some ot the other weakness Democracy seems to b the best
coz :
1)a dictator wud run the country accordin to his whims n fancies n even if he is gud ,money n power might corupt him coz after all he is human
so u cant leave billions of ppl just on 1 man
2) single party system like china in the long run r bound to follow demcracy coz as the ppl become rich ,their livin standards inprove they r more aware of their rights, they want to speak up ,express themselves
n let them vote let them decide wats wrong n right ? they 'l vote n fix the problem in the long run..
ultimately any gud form of goverance is for the ppl, by the ppl n of the ppl
(jfk)
You are a guy from china I am a guy from Nepal, your neighbour. I completely liked your opinion about democracry and dictatorship.
| jaro wrote: |
i'd have to say i agree with gonzo
well put |
| biga57 wrote: |
| Quote: |
1. If the dictator is {ruthless}, he can make the government run much more effective. |
Yes, powerful fascists can optimize the system at the expense of freedom. More fascism however is not better.
Gonzo,
Could you please explain what do you mean for FASCISM ? |
I used the word correctly. I tend to do that.
| NobodiesHero wrote: |
| I think Democracy is a really really bad form of government system, BUT (don't shout at me yet) the best compared to all others that have ever been practically tested. |
Then you must really really really really really really hate: socialism, marxism, and outright fascism.
| Quote: |
| If you look at history you will realize that systems of government which were ruled by only one... ended up working for their own profi |
how bout that. Could it be a lack of "checks and balances"?
| Quote: |
| majority doesn't have a clue about what is the right thing to be done. |
Then they take on the consequence for THEIR poor choices.
| intle wrote: |
| the status of US...Many may agree with that it is a very democratic nation |
Then those many are ESSENTIALLY WRONG. The united states is not a democracy. The united states is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC.
| Quote: |
| the governors never care much about the poor people...It's a government of the wealthy |
Do you refer to the bane that is welfare? Prior to its inception the "wealthy" were charitable. Much of that charity has evaporated under the oppression of socialist programs.
| Quote: |
| A general employee and the great moneybags say the same thing, it's influence never be the same |
One man: one vote.
Each person is entitled to fail. Each person is capable of making his own way. Each person is capable of becoming his own "moneybags".
| intle wrote: |
| What ever the system of the government is not that important. |
It certainly is important when the form does not respect individual dignity.
| Quote: |
The WISDOM and MORAL CHARACTER are most important QUALITIES the governors should HAVE.
|
Thomas Jefferson, one of the founding fathers of the United States said something similar about representatives.
Being a dictator and having "moral character" are diametrically opposed.
| Quote: |
| We really need knowledgable experts with virtue to manage our country. |
What is an "expert"? Is it not enough to have virtue?
| intle wrote: |
| the central government ... now running China is very good one, better than most of the governors before. |
Better how??
| Quote: |
| but the immoralty of the people in the system |
Do you mean the people RUNNING the system?
| Quote: |
| this is the nature of human being |
Wickedness is NOT the nature of man. Goodness is the nature of man.
| Quote: |
| so build a good control |
Government should NOT try to CONTROL citizens! Are they really citizens? Controlled people have almost no ability to exercise free will. How can that be called good?
| Quote: |
| the well conduct of the government is nothing to do with Communism |
Correct. The government of China has VERY LITTLE to do with communism. .... As you yourself said: it has EVERYTHING to do with control!i would agree 
but i china is not a dictatorship its a capitalist country now
nothing against capitalists btw What is worse is that China is a capitalist country where capitalism is embedded in an old layer of comunist structure.
It gets the worst of both systems.
Impenetrable burocracy that harms anyone who is not willing to "oil" the wheel with red envelopes and a copycat capitalist system that has no protection for workers (infacts there no Unions that deserve to be called so in China) no effective social security. A ridicolous pension scheme.
At least during the communist era , hospitals were free (OK lousy service, but free) and now if you have no money you can be left dying at their doors.
Rich Chinese become more rich as they can afford to bribe here and there. The poor fellows in the street is struggling to get a reasonably paid job.
Low cost labour will still be available in China for a long time. What makes Chinese Factories so competitive is just this the non-existent social cost of workers.
I agree that if a dictator is a good person the country does run more efficent, but if they are considered corrupt, like Castro, the country slowly dies. On the other hand a democracy allows people to make their own choices. However big countries need representitive democracy because it will take too long to count all the votes of the people. Even though dictatorships may be more efficent, you don't want an evil/untrust worth dictator who will steal from the people.
My original intent is to discuss the best way of running a country.
Now, the topic is going astray by some people who are over emotional.
I do not like so kind of discussion and so would not say anything for its distorting of my idea as well as the facts; moreover, I do not have time to entangle such kind of emotional dispute.
Many wise friends may now easier to understand the difficulty of talking over with "chinese dissidents" the chinese governors trying to do.
Anyway, there is no PERFECT in the World, let's try to understand all and let all go in their way. The most important thing is to live wise and calm.
I'd like to say again - I would not do AGGRESSIVE DISCUSSION, so would like such kind of posters leave me alone. Thanks a lot. I'd like to discuss with some friends:
YES, china now is more capitalism.
The best of capitalism is that the people driven by profit and then works harder to gain more. SO, the major and leading part of Chines are busy for open/run-ning businesses and earning more money - the productivity is devoloped well. This is very important for a nation, area, society to keep going forward - I like and agree with it much.
The problem accompany this is that the unfair distribution the wealth. Many people and companies are going the way the western began its capitalism - BIG wealth of the public and nation owned is going to the pocket of small part of person in grey - the taxation system is holed.
Actually, it is not difficult to understand - the nation have 1.3 billion people - the new reformed governing system cannot soon able to meet the requirement in so short time.
This might be the expenses for the reform, and, for the better development of the future, it values, I believe.
[quote="intle"] The best of capitalism is that the people driven by profit and then works harder to gain more. SO, the major and leading part of Chines are busy for open/run-ning businesses and earning more money - the productivity is devoloped well. This is very important for a nation, area, society to keep going forward - I like and agree with it much.
The problem accompany this is that the unfair distribution the wealth. Many people and companies are going the way the western began its capitalism - BIG wealth of the public and nation owned is going to the pocket of small part of person in grey - the taxation system is holed.
[quote]
Actually the problem i see with the current structure in China is that the capitalism showing up with its nastier face. The Communist/ Socialist system is only concerned with keeping its power and profiting as well.
The worst of two system.
Intle don't you think that workers should be a little bit more protected ?
I do not think discuss China here is well.
There is very little discussion on the internet of any kind about China. China remains a mystery to most of the world. It is not just the bamboo curtain but cultural differences as well. I would be very interested in continuing this thread if we can get a bit more information on what is really going on in China. Even in a supposedly open society like the US a lot of things are not open to public disclosure. Last night I saw a program on the Discover Channel about the Lebanon bombings of the US embassy and marine barracks. The main interest in the story was how a CIA operative discovered Iran's and Syria's involvement and was subsequently fired because the government was not interested in escalating hostilities between those governments and the US. If this kind of major news story can be suppressed in the US would it be fair to say that in China virtually any thing could happen without anyone on the outside knowing about it?
PS is it true that Google has been banned in China? If not try the tool bar it is helpful.
China is well country.Chese is great.China will grow rich and strong!
I come from Jilin province of China,I am pride of my mother land though there are so many unjustness sometime. My English is not so good but I must express my thanks to those foreign friends for your friendly comments about China!
China is a country with rich cultural and historical heritage. It would just need to give it's citizen's better human right and freedom. they should try to achieve more transparenccy in their society. To much is just hush hush, and don't ask- don't tell. Just like the chemical factory explosion that was hidden by the chinese government, until the chemically toxicated water had reached the cities and people had to cut their water off.
More transparency and better civil rights is all chine needs. Otherwise it's a country with great hopes in the future.
Actually the scary part of working in China is that you never know the truth on what is really happening. Not only the chemical plant..remember the story with SARS ?? sick patients hurled into ambulances from one hand to the othet of the city ?
Who really knows what is going on with bird flu?
Freedom of press and expression is non existent. I would understand control on political issues, but in China even the simplest news, are closely censored.
Only when the s..t hits the fan and there is no more cover-up possible, than the news make it to the people...
Scary..really scary, considering the bird flu issue...
Thanks all for attention.
I don't think that in nowaday China, the government has the power of control any news of public events - the local government might try to do so for showing their better behaving to the up level government. They tend to decrease the neg news. The central government is always asking the locals to tell the truth before things go out of contral.
Many years before, the government did reveal as little as possible neg news to show a peaceful society to the people and World; as well as, to protect the public from 'unnecessary' worry.
BUT now, it is impossible. The internet is connected everywhere over the country - if anyone believe that any person have the ability to control the PUBLIC event news through the net, he must do a kick in his gallop - that is absolutely impossible - we just see all around us reasonably.
| intle wrote: |
Many years before, the government did reveal as little as possible neg news to show a peaceful society to the people and World; as well as, to protect the public from 'unnecessary' worry.
BUT now, it is impossible. The internet is connected everywhere over the country -........................... |
In western democracies , in Europe , USA and somewere in Asia too, the problem of separating/ minimizing political control from the media is serious and quite hardly undertaken.
Nevertheless , the control of media by political power does exist everywere. Maybe it is not so openly known , but it is there.
Now , given that it is so difficult to have a "political power" free media in countries with no dictatorship, you argue that in China it was a thing of the past !!!
Sorry, I disagree completely with you.
China is now more than before manupulating the media in favour of its political power. Local governments are closely scrutinized for their actions it is true. However if their cover-ups of "negative" news is successful, they get the prize from the central government.. If they screw-up the cover-up they get busted.
This "apparent" transparency of the current situation of the pblic information in China is not even dented by the internet. Yes internet for Chinese Communist Government is a pain in their arses, however the control that they exercise on internet is strictier than what you may think... maybe after this post they are after me too!!! 
What is news in China today?
Here in Hangzhou today there are no significant news.
Just the usual stuff about avian flu, another victim and other suspected cases ...all reported by CCTV.
Mine accident in the north and attempts to save some lives..
Mines in China are the most dangerous ones on earth. Being a miner in China is more dangerous than playing russian roulette with a fully loaded revolver....
Last edited by biga57 on Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:25 am; edited 1 time in total
Hey man!
I too know about China cuz it is one of my neighbouring country.
And my opinion about China is that it has Been increasing in Information Technology day by day and is a real modal of 21st Century. U see but I think that Chinese Products are really cheap and use and throw type here
They can't be used for a long time as most of the things are Non- branded or Artificial(I mean not original) But also I think that it will be one of the Super power of the world if it keps on going furthur..
I did get to know that china is going to do sometyhing on the Moon til 2020 from a part of the Forum on frihost and if they succeed i this then they will create history
but i cant say about the Poliical Situation in China as i am really bad in Politics
Avk :-)
Dear Intle,
You may want to comment the news published today on the South China Morning Post (first page bottom left and full report on page A6 ).
You may access SCMP on their website: www.scmp.com : Family tells of rape despite ban. (or www.scmp.china.com ).
Its the story of a rape in Hebei province where the police did nothing to chase the offender and did a lot to stop the family to air their anger to the international media.
This is just an example. And if you consider that South China Morning Post is NOT a paper that usuallu criticises Beijing policy (I mean they are usually measuring their words
very very very very carefully when they mention Beijing and its policy), well I guess there could be a lot of similar news that cannot become widely known to us.
This kind of protests are not "political" so in a way they can "escape" the tight censorship excerted on media by your government. However freedom of speech is , in the best case, quite a difficul pursuit in PRC.. They want me to pay to acces the articles on SCMP. You can read the main page but a lot of content is pay only.
| wolfhnd wrote: |
| They want me to pay to acces the articles on SCMP. You can read the main page but a lot of content is pay only. |
Sorry I just read the article on printed newspaper version..I quoted my source but I didn't know you have to pay.
Yes they want you to register to read the full story, I checked too late. Sorry.No problem I just thought you would like to know China crece a un ritmo imparable, algun dia alcanzara a Occidente y lo situara bajo su dominio
Chinos Powa!! The thing about China is that even when it was the most powerful nation on earth it never really tried hard to dominate any other nation accept Japan. I have to think that even after the devastation of the divine wind China could have conqueror Japan if it had had the desire to do so.
| wolfhnd wrote: |
| The thing about China is that even when it was the most powerful nation on earth it never really tried hard to dominate any other nation accept Japan. I have to think that even after the devastation of the divine wind China could have conqueror Japan if it had had the desire to do so. |
Maybe you forgot something. Do you remember what China did to TIBET in the fifties?
China OCCUPIED another country TIBET and wiped out 99 % of their temples not to mention the many tibetan people killed.
In my opinion this cannot be defined otherwise but BRUTAL AGGRESSION.
Unlike IRAN, Tibetan monks didn't have any Weapons of Mass Distruction or Oil. Not even an army to shield off the Red Army for a few days...I was not referring to recent history but only commenting on the inward focus that traditional has keep China out of the empire building mode so common to Western European nations.
Sadly, as good as a 'benevolent dictator' ever gets, he is limited by his life span. Dictatorship, no matter how beneficial, can never ever be a stable system because the whole system collapses with the death of the dictator.
What is needed is a system of laws that survive each regime change. Experience has proven all over the world, and in all times and places, that governments which have solid systems -- even somewhat harsh -- which survive their individual human members decade after decade are the best for the long-term health of the polity. This is why China, undemocratic as it is, offers at least a portion of its citizens (the urban proletariat) a reasonably opportunity-rich life; at least citizens may count on things not drastically changing in unpredictable fashion during their lifetimes.
| drtvats0n wrote: |
Sadly, as good as a 'benevolent dictator' ever gets, he is limited by his life span. Dictatorship, no matter how beneficial, can never ever be a stable system because the whole system collapses with the death of the dictator.
What is needed is a system of laws that survive each regime change. Experience has proven all over the world, and in all times and places, that governments which have solid systems -- even somewhat harsh -- which survive their individual human members decade after decade are the best for the long-term health of the polity. This is why China, undemocratic as it is, offers at least a portion of its citizens (the urban proletariat) a reasonably opportunity-rich life; at least citizens may count on things not drastically changing in unpredictable fashion during their lifetimes. |
Maybe you are right. However if in 1989 the Tienanmen revolution would have had a dent in the system,instead being washed away in blood, probably P.R.China was a different place now.....Hey I'm from India which as you may know is a Republic. After China India is the most populated country in the world. But as opposed to China India is a very small piece of land which translates into the fact that our population density is far too high. Naturally we people here are struggling and the competition in academic and and professional levels is almost deadly. Alothugh slowly, we are making progress from our current state. Now this could well be the most difficult economic scenario for any dictator because he would have to keep so many things in mind just to run the state for one day. But the republic system is doing much better balthough here, as always, there are lots of bribing asnd cheating which is slowing down / weakening the system. From my point of view that's the only advantage of dictatorship: Things happen fast according to the dictators commands. But this happens to be the greatest problem with dictatorship too: The dictator can do anythong according to his whims and fancy and no one can question him. Best example for both sides of dictatorship: HITLER! Think about it.
