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The U.S. Is No Longer a Democracy?





jajarvin
Here is some opinnions of Jimmy Carter:
    "It violates the essence of what made America a great country in its political system.
    Now it's just an oligarchy with unlimited political bribery being the essence of getting the nominations
    for president or being elected president. And the same thing applies to governors,
    and U.S. Senators and congress members. So, now we've just seen a subversion
    of our political system as a payoff to major contributors, who want and expect, and sometimes get,
    favors for themselves after the election is over.
    ... At the present time the incumbents, Democrats and Republicans, look upon this unlimited money
    as a great benefit to themselves.
    Somebody that is already in Congress has a great deal more to sell."
    Possum
    America is a Republic first and a democracy second.
    deanhills
    For me the US is a plutocracy. A country governed by a very small elite group of super wealthy tycoons who have the Government in their pay through handsome election contributions and well-paid congress lobbyists and negotiators.
    handfleisch
    hard to say
    crawfish
    USA is the best. great country. lots of power
    BigGeek
    America is no longer a great country - I have watched the demise of my country over my lifetime - the country that led the world in education - no longer does so. The country that led the world in production - no longer does so. We have a tax system that although has the highest corporate taxes in the world has so many loop holes that the largest corporations pay zero in taxes - while we wage war on the poor and claim they are ripping off our government and causing us to go bankrupt and are responsible for the deficit - all the while if only the two largest oil companies paid 8% taxes on their money rather than zero - we would have a surplus - this happens while we give money to these corporations - sad and sick - a company run by the elite and wealthy because they can buy politicians and get their way!!

    Here you go - this is a great video - he speaks nothing but the truth!!!

    https://youtu.be/VMqcLUqYqrs
    deanhills
    BigGeek wrote:
    America is no longer a great country - I have watched the demise of my country over my lifetime - the country that led the world in education - no longer does so. The country that led the world in production - no longer does so. We have a tax system that although has the highest corporate taxes in the world has so many loop holes that the largest corporations pay zero in taxes - while we wage war on the poor and claim they are ripping off our government and causing us to go bankrupt and are responsible for the deficit - all the while if only the two largest oil companies paid 8% taxes on their money rather than zero - we would have a surplus - this happens while we give money to these corporations - sad and sick - a company run by the elite and wealthy because they can buy politicians and get their way!!

    Here you go - this is a great video - he speaks nothing but the truth!!!

    https://youtu.be/VMqcLUqYqrs
    Great post BigGeek, you've said everything that was going around in my head but not the same ability to say it as succinctly and to the point including most of everything. What particularly scares people is this gun thing. Not so much the guns, but a society that seems to be aggressive to the point of using guns to express their deep seated rage against society or to conquer territory for themselves, and others needing guns to protect themselves against those guns. Pretty destructive all round.

    Maybe this is testimony to generations of kids that have had to fend for themselves at home, spending too much time in front of TV and violent computer games, being bored out of their minds, and fantasizing about fantasies, getting completely divorced from reality. A society that keeps your poor poor, and has impoverished its middle classes to the point where those kids will probably keep having to look after themselves with parents that can't really be parents any longer.

    Nothing is as real as it used to be. Even the politics with the election games are unreal. Presentation is everything and substance means very VERY little. Even the President and his family appear plastic to me. Just too perfect, too wealthy, too out of reach for the real people. Just completely farcical from beginning to end.
    Da Rossa
    Well I can't say anything about how you fell up there in the US, but before thinking you don't have a democracy, look at South America. Brazil included. We do have a democracy, which is being faded by the use of democratic tools themselves. Something similar to destroying capitalism using capitalism's tools.
    deanhills
    I wonder how democratic democracy really is. How many laws are created every day under the false pretense of "protection of the public". We hear it everywhere, especially on the internet. A new rule that is created to protect users. And just a little more freedom lost in the process.
    Da Rossa
    Yes, this is true. I used to compliment the US for having a relatively small Legal System. Some acts from the 19th century still apply in good symbiosis with the contemporary times.

    Now everything is about passing a new bill. The Law is supposed to be comprehensive, albeit small in size. A lot of ordinances, executive acts and statutes brings legal insecurity for the citizen.

    About a statute to protect the Internet user: here in Brazil they passed the Internet Civil Framework. In essence, it sets forth the users rights in the web. However, think about it: we already had those rights. Why regulating something we already took for granted? Also, think alongside with a more fundamental right: the freedom of movement, ability to walk, to come and go. Do we need a sub-constitutional statute to assert this right? I think this is more like a liability rather than a guarantee.
    RosenCruz
    Check out last 30 years. Two families dominated. Clinton's and Bush family. If Hillary wins again, Clinton's will rule again.
    deanhills
    RosenCruz wrote:
    Check out last 30 years. Two families dominated. Clinton's and Bush family. If Hillary wins again, Clinton's will rule again.
    Never thought about it that way and you're right. Must say though that the pickings of the available candidates are so poor, Hillary seems to be the only worthwhile candidate around, which is saying how very poor the others are. Not how good she is. Razz
    Da Rossa
    Two families, but what exactly do you think the US missed in that period? What was forfeit, what could have been done or conquered?
    younelba
    ooh yes, and this is the case for a long time now, but people did not pay attention to what was happening
    RosenCruz
    Da Rossa wrote:
    Two families, but what exactly do you think the US missed in that period? What was forfeit, what could have been done or conquered?


    I am talking about a power elite. A group of families, businessmen etc. taking control of things and not letting go. Jesus Bush family is still trying to make a comeback with Jeb. For what ? To serve more to Wall Street, Oil and Weapon lobby???


    United States missed a lot. Second Bush era devastated the economy while a treat in China growed and Russia fixed things with Putin. You can check Northern Europe. They are doing great in wellfare. US missed that.
    Da Rossa
    Quote:

    I am talking about a power elite. A group of families, businessmen etc. taking control of things and not letting go. Jesus Bush family is still trying to make a comeback with Jeb. For what ? To serve more to Wall Street, Oil and Weapon lobby???


    People like to point the oil business as a great evil. But why?

    I'm not deeply into the US 21st Century Geography, but couldn't we say any administration that takes the Oval would necessarily miss some things? I think you maybe talking in hindsight.

    China would raise regardless. What do you see now that could be done to stop that 'threat'?
    deanhills
    @ Da Rossa - Good question. Here's a debate among politicians about your question:
    http://www.politico.com/arena/archive/can-romney-shake-off-romneycare.html

    The discussion is dated 2011, but the arguments are still valid.

    I like the point Lisa Margonelli made:
    Quote:
    Oil companies are exactly as bad as we want them to be. They are bad enough to get a quarter of the world's oil production drilled, refined, and delivered to 169,000 US gas stations - basically every street corner in the U.S. - without fail. They do it through revolutions, hurricanes, scandals, and wild price gyrations. Who but a bunch of rick-managing spreadsheet-obsessed badasses would really want that job?
    RosenCruz
    Da Rossa wrote:
    Quote:

    I am talking about a power elite. A group of families, businessmen etc. taking control of things and not letting go. Jesus Bush family is still trying to make a comeback with Jeb. For what ? To serve more to Wall Street, Oil and Weapon lobby???


    People like to point the oil business as a great evil. But why?

    I'm not deeply into the US 21st Century Geography, but couldn't we say any administration that takes the Oval would necessarily miss some things? I think you maybe talking in hindsight.

    China would raise regardless. What do you see now that could be done to stop that 'threat'?


    I am not saying that they are evil. But one has to admit that oil and weapon industry has strong lobby activities in DC. What happens when their interests and taxpayers' clash ? Usually lobbyists win and people are disappointed. I am impressed with the recent price drops in oil and feeling better towards the industry. However, they really do affect US politics too much imho, together with some other lobby groups.

    Any administration might miss some points. You are right. But Bush administration missed everything but war imho. They focused too much bringing democracy into Middle East. Russia and China gained great economic power during his presidency and he did little to re-empower American economy. May be you can not stop China or other rivals. But Bush should have left a stronger economy after 2 terms of presidency. All that debt, lack of production. Where is American economy going? As an outsider, I believe Obama's presidency was inspirational for America.
    BigGeek
    deanhills wrote:
    BigGeek wrote:
    America is no longer a great country - I have watched the demise of my country over my lifetime - the country that led the world in education - no longer does so. The country that led the world in production - no longer does so. We have a tax system that although has the highest corporate taxes in the world has so many loop holes that the largest corporations pay zero in taxes - while we wage war on the poor and claim they are ripping off our government and causing us to go bankrupt and are responsible for the deficit - all the while if only the two largest oil companies paid 8% taxes on their money rather than zero - we would have a surplus - this happens while we give money to these corporations - sad and sick - a company run by the elite and wealthy because they can buy politicians and get their way!!

    Here you go - this is a great video - he speaks nothing but the truth!!!

    https://youtu.be/VMqcLUqYqrs
    Great post BigGeek, you've said everything that was going around in my head but not the same ability to say it as succinctly and to the point including most of everything. What particularly scares people is this gun thing. Not so much the guns, but a society that seems to be aggressive to the point of using guns to express their deep seated rage against society or to conquer territory for themselves, and others needing guns to protect themselves against those guns. Pretty destructive all round.

    Maybe this is testimony to generations of kids that have had to fend for themselves at home, spending too much time in front of TV and violent computer games, being bored out of their minds, and fantasizing about fantasies, getting completely divorced from reality. A society that keeps your poor poor, and has impoverished its middle classes to the point where those kids will probably keep having to look after themselves with parents that can't really be parents any longer.

    Nothing is as real as it used to be. Even the politics with the election games are unreal. Presentation is everything and substance means very VERY little. Even the President and his family appear plastic to me. Just too perfect, too wealthy, too out of reach for the real people. Just completely farcical from beginning to end.


    The Firearm problem in the US is one strange thing and is one of those things that makes you wonder what the hell is going on. I am one of those people that owns firearms and will not relinquish my right to do so. Our right to bear arms was given to us by our founding fathers to protect us from a tyrannical government. I honestly believe this and as long as the asshats rule our country I am going to keep mine and plenty of ammo - what happens in Washington DC is scary and myself and all of my friends agree that having an arsenal at our disposal is one of the main reasons our leaders are cautious about crushing our rights. If they try and make them illegal and confiscate them they will be in for a war, especially in the South! It just seems way to out of norm for all these shootings to take place and it seems to me and many others I know - like it is staged - like some group is creating these shootings - and it is being used as propaganda to disarm us. An unarmed population is easier to control and abuse!! I know that seems paranoid to say that and a bit on the conspiracy theory side of things - but is it just so out of the norm and strange that it keeps happening - there are that many people that are so hateful that they want to murder innocent people?

    As far as the oil companies go yeah they are and they are not evil. They are a typical corporation with profit and monopoly attitude - they want to dominate the market and control their profits and keep their money. I think it is sick that we subsidize the industry, and hand them over 27 billion a year, I also think it is sad that they pay NO taxes. My other complaint about them is that they are known for buy up competing technologies and shelve them so that they can continue their dominance and profits. Is that evil, or just standard operating procedure for wealth executives and their greedy corporations.

    The other aspect of the US is the FDA - and the hold Monsanto has on them - that is another topic of disgust for most US Citizens - they have basically destroyed our food supply and replaced it with crap!
    Da Rossa
    Quote:
    But one has to admit that oil and weapon industry has strong lobby activities in DC. What happens when their interests and taxpayers' clash ?


    Yes, like the cement industry here in Brazil! But in here no one is painting a target at the cementers. About the clash of interests, then a Republic should use their institutions. I believe more in yorus than in mine. Edit: at the bottom of your post I realised you're not american, so replace it with "I believe more in American institutions than the Brazilian ones."

    Quote:
    But Bush administration missed everything but war imho. They focused too much bringing democracy into Middle East.


    You're right about that. But the war had its motives. I'm not here to defend the 'imperialism' how people in Latin America like to name it, but if you look around the globe, the free world is no longer the majority. Possibly it never was. So the sole idea of bringing democracy to the Middle East is a bold move imo. Too bad Bush didn't succeed.

    Quote:
    But Bush should have left a stronger economy after 2 terms of presidency. All that debt, lack of production. Where is American economy going? As an outsider, I believe Obama's presidency was inspirational for America.


    Now I understand what you meant by "stopping that threat". But, for other reasons, and as outsider, I think just the opposite of you: Obama is not that inspiring. He could either bring troops to fight ISIS on ground or do not intervene at all, but spending a billion a week with sparse bombings but no occupation seemed pointless to me.
    RosenCruz
    Quote:
    Yes, like the cement industry here in Brazil! But in here no one is painting a target at the cementers. About the clash of interests, then a Republic should use their institutions. I believe more in yorus than in mine. Edit: at the bottom of your post I realised you're not american, so replace it with "I believe more in American institutions than the Brazilian ones."


    I do not know how you can compare these two. I have no idea about the Brazilian Cement Industry but I am sure they are not as powerful and as global as oil manufacturers.

    Quote:
    So the sole idea of bringing democracy to the Middle East is a bold move imo. Too bad Bush didn't succeed.


    I live very close to the Middle East. I have travelled to Syria, Iraq, Iran. As a secular Muslim, I know one thing or two about the dynamics of the region. Western world knows nothing about Middle East. Trying to bring democracy by weapons is useless. It will create nothing but terror and shock here. As it did. ISIS is the child of actions of Bush administration. If a society is not ready for democracy, you should wait and set the conditions first. Iraq for example, was simply not ready for such a bold move. Now it is tearing into pieces and terrorists are hanging around.


    Quote:
    Obama is not that inspiring. He could either bring troops to fight ISIS on ground or do not intervene at all, but spending a billion a week with sparse bombings but no occupation seemed pointless to me.


    Same sex marriages, legalization of pot in some states, getting US soldiers out of Middle East and ObamaCare was great moves in my opinion. Of course he has less influence on state level. But these could not be possible under Bush administration imho. Bush was the kind of president that would never do a Redd.it AMA. Obama was the kind of. I like the guy. USA needs more leaders like him.
    Da Rossa
    Quote:
    I do not know how you can compare these two. I have no idea about the Brazilian Cement Industry but I am sure they are not as powerful and as global as oil manufacturers.


    Yes, but the comparison is still valid. If you were to ask who is the strongest lobbyist here in Brazil, then we would have the construction sector as the answer. And, as for the necessary level of juice to 'convince' the lawmakers, then they would be quite as determinant.

    Quote:
    Trying to bring democracy by weapons is useless. It will create nothing but terror and shock here. As it did. ISIS is the child of actions of Bush administration. If a society is not ready for democracy, you should wait and set the conditions first. Iraq for example, was simply not ready for such a bold move. Now it is tearing into pieces and terrorists are hanging around.


    I agree with everything you said but the 'ISIS is the child of actions of Bush administration'. Is this so black and white as a cause-and-consequence relation? The only thing I would agree would be about the timing. After Obama loosened the offensive by replacing it with bare sparse bombings, terrorists could thrive. But you see, that's why I said Bush failed.

    Do you see democracy itself do not take into account the way it was forced in applying to Middle-Eastern countries?

    Quote:
    Same sex marriages, legalization of pot in some states, getting US soldiers out of Middle East and ObamaCare was great moves in my opinion. Of course he has less influence on state level. But these could not be possible under Bush administration imho. Bush was the kind of president that would never do a Redd.it AMA. Obama was the kind of. I like the guy. USA needs more leaders like him.


    But I was talking about the state level alone. I'm against pot and same-sex marriages are not due to Obama, since the states legalised one by one by itselves, until the US Supreme Court declared it illegal to deny. Obama did nothing but a public support by speaking in favour.
    RosenCruz
    Bush administration is the reason why so many terrorists are freely hanging around in Middle East, with USA origin weapons. The weapons that USA donated or sold to Iraq army are captured or given to ISIS by cowards of Iraq army. Now they have their own arsenal, plenty of ammunition and even oil refinery's to make cash.

    Obama is definitely right. US soldiers has nothing to do in middle east but losing their lives. This is sad for their family and homeland. We should have clearly seen now that, sending ground troops to Middle East is useless. Two Gulf wars, post 9/11 war and things happening in Syria show that what is needed in Middle East is not guns. Education, jobs and secularism is needed.


    This is all because of neocons and their so called new millennium plan. They did nothing but stupidity in Middle East. US soldiers has nothing to do here. If you want democracy in Middle East, all you have to do is to help by teaching it, endorsing it, not interfering with internal issues of Middle East countries and support them economically. Sometimes, the worst authoritian presidency is better than a ruined democracy. See what happened in Iraq and Syria. They were better off with Saddam and Bessar Eshad. No one can deny that.

    Speaking of democracy, why is no western country trying to bring democracy into Saudi Arabia? May be because they are a submissive ally of USA ?
    standready
    Of course the United States is a democracy. "We vote and they decide."
    SpaceInvader75
    I don't believe the political system is working for us. I don't know what the solution to the problems are, but the shrinking middle class and income equality clearly demonstrate that the system is failing us. I know this is a problem with many other countries, but it is a sad realization that more and more of our freedom is being taken away all the time, even though the very concept of the founders was to have more freedom. Apparently, whoever has the most money can just do whatever they want. even though it's not what the majority of us want. Why it works this way doesn't really make sense to me, although brainwashing, fear, ignorance, and greed certainly seem to be at the core of it. But possibly we could find a solution if more people were willing to think for themselves and do something to initiate changes.

    I don't think we're going to be able to make the right changes by voting. The fact that only 2 parties even get elected sort of shows me that the political system just isn't serving the people.
    RosenCruz
    US really needs some deep reforms if it wants to be a super power.
    Insanity
    The US is a constitutional republic.
    BigGeek
    I realize that the publicized reason that the Bush administration went to war in Iraq was to combat a threat that they had weapons of mass destruction. I also realize that they said that the secondary purpose was to bring democracy to the middle east.

    This was plain old lies - the reason that the Bush administration wanted to go to war in Iraq was to gain control of the oil industry and to feed billions of dollars in contracts to Dick Cheney's company Halliburton, and to allow the private contract armies a place to earn big bucks in a war zone. They had little to no intention of bringing democracy to Iraq, and the small effort they put forth to do so has been a dramatic failure.

    The whole war was a scam to oust Saddam, and gain control of the oil in the region! That is my honest opinion from everything I have read and what we have seen happen in Iraq.
    deanhills
    BigGeek wrote:
    That is my honest opinion from everything I have read and what we have seen happen in Iraq.
    Sounds almost like mine, although with greater specifics. I also thought there was plenty of defense related multi billion dollar contracts going to buddies, also helping to get re-elected as those defense contracts would lead to jobs, keeping things afloat and making the numbers look good. I wonder whether the control over oil was more to keep it from others than to really use the oil for the US. At any rate I agree with you here too. Plan was (still is) to get control over oil supply in the Middle East.
    BigGeek
    deanhills wrote:
    BigGeek wrote:
    That is my honest opinion from everything I have read and what we have seen happen in Iraq.
    Sounds almost like mine, although with greater specifics. I also thought there was plenty of defense related multi billion dollar contracts going to buddies, also helping to get re-elected as those defense contracts would lead to jobs, keeping things afloat and making the numbers look good. I wonder whether the control over oil was more to keep it from others than to really use the oil for the US. At any rate I agree with you here too. Plan was (still is) to get control over oil supply in the Middle East.


    Oh hell yes there was plenty of buddy buddy contract letting going on too - They misplaced a trillion dollars in Iraq - just misplaced it - lost it!!! People formed companies by filing the paper work in the US as defense contractors and went over there and handed in contracts to perform services scribbled on pieces of note book paper and were awarded stacks of cash for their effort. Millionaires were created over night by the simple handing out of millions of dollars cash, with no one keeping track of it, or who got paid for what. In one example the contractor was paid to supply all new ground support equipment to the International Airport in Baghdad, he was awarded millions of dollars to supply all new baggage transports, airplane tow vehicles, and so on, he bought some paint and painted the old equipment that was there and they signed off on the contract as being completed!

    They were awarded contracts to rebuild buildings and the infrastructure, and they delivered sewage systems that dumped raw sewage on to the streets, buildings that flushed the toilets into the roofs, and so many violations and complete fraud and non performance of the contracts and delivery of goods and services it was not funny!! AND not one word of it was said in the press, and not one investigation or suing contractors for abuse - NOTHING!!

    YES you are 100% correct the scene was to help Bush and Cheney's buddy defense contractors get rich, rape the Iraq government of all its wealth, and profit big time off of the war!!

    Along with that - gain control of the middle east oil. You are also correct not so much to use it in the US, but to control the price per barrel, and to control production - In 2015 the US was the number one producer of oil in the world - and Halliburton cleaned up with US and middle eastern contracts. Control the oil out of Iraq, limit production because a US company holds the reigns on every drill rig in the country, and lower the price along with becoming the number one producer of oil and ensure that the currency used to trade oil remains the US dollar into the foreseeable future.

    Seems to me like the plan worked!!

    Back on topic - It is these sorts of things that the US Government does, along with giving complete reign to our corporations to screw us (the middle class), and anyone else in the world that does business with them that has me laughing about the US Government - we are no longer a democracy - we are a Corporate Aristocracy - the wealthy corporate leaders do what ever they want to whom ever they want and our elected representatives do anything they want as long as they get a kick back or a bribe - really doesn't matter which party the belong to, they are pretty much all the same!!

    The press is owned by them, and is more controlled with their propaganda than Communist Russia ever thought about being, so it continues on with no end in sight, and no chance any politician will ever stand up to change the system!
    deanhills
    BigGeek wrote:
    It is these sorts of things that the US Government does, along with giving complete reign to our corporations to screw us (the middle class), and anyone else in the world that does business with them that has me laughing about the US Government - we are no longer a democracy - we are a Corporate Aristocracy - the wealthy corporate leaders do what ever they want to whom ever they want and our elected representatives do anything they want as long as they get a kick back or a bribe - really doesn't matter which party the belong to, they are pretty much all the same!!

    The press is owned by them, and is more controlled with their propaganda than Communist Russia ever thought about being, so it continues on with no end in sight, and no chance any politician will ever stand up to change the system!
    Corporate Aristocracy is a good description. I see an identical system of "governance" by the European Union. The EU for me IS a Corporate Aristocracy, used to legislate business in Europe in favour of, for and on behalf of the large corporations.
    BigGeek
    deanhills wrote:
    BigGeek wrote:
    It is these sorts of things that the US Government does, along with giving complete reign to our corporations to screw us (the middle class), and anyone else in the world that does business with them that has me laughing about the US Government - we are no longer a democracy - we are a Corporate Aristocracy - the wealthy corporate leaders do what ever they want to whom ever they want and our elected representatives do anything they want as long as they get a kick back or a bribe - really doesn't matter which party the belong to, they are pretty much all the same!!

    The press is owned by them, and is more controlled with their propaganda than Communist Russia ever thought about being, so it continues on with no end in sight, and no chance any politician will ever stand up to change the system!
    Corporate Aristocracy is a good description. I see an identical system of "governance" by the European Union. The EU for me IS a Corporate Aristocracy, used to legislate business in Europe in favour of, for and on behalf of the large corporations.


    Yeah that is a really good point about the EU. Great Briton just left the EU and sighted the fact that officials were appointed to their offices - not elected - and they serve for life once they become an officer of the EU.

    Funny how so much of what George Orwell wrote about is coming true - how we are slowly becoming a world ruled by our Corporations - I used to think conspiracy theories were BS - but as time goes by I have to wonder why so much of what they predicted has come true.

    Kind of scary if you ask me???
    deanhills
    [quote="BigGeek"][quote="deanhills"]
    BigGeek wrote:


    Funny how so much of what George Orwell wrote about is coming true - how we are slowly becoming a world ruled by our Corporations - I used to think conspiracy theories were BS - but as time goes by I have to wonder why so much of what they predicted has come true.

    Kind of scary if you ask me???
    Absolutely true. Exactly what was going through my mind tonight when I was checking the news about France extending its state of emergency by six months. One of the rules during the state of emergency in France is that Government officials can do searches of houses/apartments without needing to get a warrant. Worse, they are allowed to use any data that is found on mobile phones and computers on the premises. Same thing obviously happening in Turkey, but much MUCH worse, as the President in power already exhibited all signs of wanting to be a dictator before the coup happened. He didn't need much of a coup to get him to fire all of the judges and public prosecutors in Turkey and incarcerate thousands of people, no doubt some innocent among them except they voted against him when he was elected with 50% votes. Two countries I won't include in my travels right now.
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