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Brazilian labour law





Da Rossa
This is a question for you guys from the northern countries: here in Brazil we have a wide variety of labour rights. The employee is entitled to a 13th extra salary when he completes 12 months working for a single employer; also, if he leaves that company before that time, he's entitled to have a proportional amount of your 13th salary.

There is also the right for paid holidays with additional payment of one third, not to mention a deposit your employer has to make monthly associated yo your total work time. This goes to a fund and the worker can retrieve this money in certain cases or if some conditions are met, like acquiring a new place of residence or in case of illness. This is called "FGTS".

And don't even think about firing your employees without cause here in Brazil. You're gonna have to pay a fine of 40% of the amount due to FGTS.

Anyway, the labour law in here is very protective to the employee, but very restrictive to businesses. And I didn't even mention half of the main rights. Do you see this all as positive or risky for a country in general?

Thanks for your inputs.
BigGeek
Here is the US and especially in Colorado the labor laws favor the employer - Colorado is what is called a "Right To Work" state - which means that there are some rights the employee has but the employer has the right to hire and fire at will. They can fire you for any reason and they cannot be sued for any compensation if they do so.

They can fire you is the simply do not like you. So the employees have few rights in the work place.

Now on the unemployment end of things - they can fire you for any reason however they cannot deny you unemployment. The only reason they can deny unemployment is for criminal reasons - like sexual harassment or theft. The other good thing about this is that the employer cannot claim theft, harassment, sexual harassment, assault or any other criminal reason without having filed charges with the police - this prevents employers from claiming they fired you for say theft - they can' just claim it they have to prove it with a police report and charges filed.

Next right we have is any agreement you sign with your employer us null and void - the Companies cannot have you sign anything the denies unemployment or prevents you from taking another job. For instance IBM (my past employer) gave employees 3 months pay as a severance package when they laid us off. We signed an agreement that we would not apply for unemployment until the 3 months had expired. Myself and almost all the rest of the employees on the day we were laid off applied for unemployment - of course IBM denied it and said we were not eligible! We appealed the decision and when the case was taken before the unemployment judge - the ruling was - they were not fired for any criminal reasons, any agreement they signed is null and void - and unemployment pay was granted from the day we were laid off.

Also - My present employers had us sign an agreement that we would not hold a second job or moon light - my colleague was fired because he had a part time job, when he applied for unemployment my employer denied it stating he was in violation of his terms of employment - upon appeal he was granted unemployment ruling was they could not deny unemployment based on a non moon lighting agreement - it is a right to work state he can work an job or jobs he wants and if he was fired for no criminal reasons then he was eligible to receive his unemployment pay.

So other than a few things that protect the employee from company fraud or abuse - the employee here is Colorado - and most of the US - is not protected or assisted financially in any way by the government of the the laws.

In the US we are ruled, and dominated by the Corporations and the laws the protect them and work in their favor.
standready
As BigGeek said, U.S. tends to favor the employer.
Sounds like Brazil mandates a lot of benefits for employees. Yes, that put a strain on business and increases end user cost.
Da Rossa
Thanks for your input BigGeek, sorry for the long time.

Quote:
Here is the US and especially in Colorado the labor laws favor the employer - Colorado is what is called a "Right To Work" state - which means that there are some rights the employee has but the employer has the right to hire and fire at will. They can fire you for any reason and they cannot be sued for any compensation if they do so.


I thought this was a general rule in the US, no only in some states.

Quote:
They can fire you is the simply do not like you. So the employees have few rights in the work place.


In here too, but the employer will have some debts to satisfy afterwards. And good thing about the denial, the way I see it prevents discrimination, right?

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We appealed the decision and when the case was taken before the unemployment judge - the ruling was - they were not fired for any criminal reasons, any agreement they signed is null and void - and unemployment pay was granted from the day we were laid off.


Hehe, some protective rules I see. Maybe an ethical thing, was it? Or did IBM put you in a checkmate position by having you sign that agreement?

Quote:
In the US we are ruled, and dominated by the Corporations and the laws the protect them and work in their favor.


Apart from the major lobby players, do you see it as a downside? They say in Brazil the employee has the same weight for the employer than there in the US, only the government takes a (big) fraction of what the employer would pay the employee. This is a "parental" country, so to speak.

@standready:

Quote:
Sounds like Brazil mandates a lot of benefits for employees. Yes, that put a strain on business and increases end user cost.


Indeed. I don't see with good eyes these restrictions and tax burdens the companies have to bear. Not good for economy and initiative.
tonberry
It's both positive and risky at the same time. Balanced approach is always the best solution instead of punishing workers or company owners. It's good to hear that in some countries it's that way, here in Poland it's employees who always get the short end of the stick.
Da Rossa
Tonberry, why exactly does that happen in there? The law is too liberal towards the enterpreneur?
tonberry
Da Rossa, Poland is a country of relatively cheap labour. It seems like it's a good business, because a lot of companies outsource work to Poland - we're intelligent and relatively hard working but pretty cheap at the same time. On the other hand, our economy is a European money toilet of sorts - people come to do their dirty work and then make money off it elsewhere. This money could be made by Polish businessmen to empower the Polish economy.

I'm no economist, but maybe for that reason the market is skewed towards employee abuse - work is expected to be done on the cheap side and because of that employers actively seek to cut corners by abusing workers.
Da Rossa
That's very unfortunate, tonberry. I hope the culture in there changes.

But as for the law itself: does it favours the employee or the employer? Do the employees, albeit cheap, get a lot of guarantees?
tonberry
When we're hired legally, we're moderately protected. A lot of people don't though and therefore even minimal wage is not met. For some jobs, it is a common standard for the employer to abuse few laws, the most common one broken is that any work beyond 40 hours in a week needs to be paid better.

It's our (employees) fault partially though, we rarely sue companies that abuse us and if we'd be doing that more, they would stop doing that. If I had employer like that and wouldn't like him, I'd definitely gather evidence material and when it's time to leave the work, I'd sue and tell the court that was the reason I quit Smile
LxGoodies
Sue ? Why not vote other politicians, tonberry.. Poland is a democracy, isn't it ? Here, in the Netherlands, political parties on the left and unions struggled for years, to improve the situation. Now we hardly have any poor people left, mainly middle class, working hard and with good motivation. You Poles come work here because you get better pay. But actually, our employers underpay the Poles.. they make use of you as cheap labour and earn a lot of money of you, putting you in bad houses or even caravans, etc. It would not be needed, if Poles would fight for their collective rights ! But indeed.. somehow, Poles are easy to make use of. And employers do.. not only in Poland.
tonberry
"Why not vote other politicians, tonberry.. Poland is a democracy, isn't it ?"

That's what we are about to do in two weeks and the ruling party is finally going away after 8 years. That doesn't change the fact that politicians are usually corrupted and constantly under pressure from corporations to keep things the way they are - profitable for big corporations, at the cost of employees. Germany is doing everything they can to keep us down as well - as our richer, more powerful neighbours they benefit the most from our dependency and mediocre economy. It's not as simple as vote for someone and things will magically change. It never is.

"Here, in the Netherlands, political parties on the left and unions struggled for years, to improve the situation."

Here, in the Poland, political parties on the left have been doing everything they can to destroy this country for the last 70 years Smile Luckily, judging from polls it looks like their time has come, or at least they will start to struggle.

"But actually, our employers underpay the Poles.. they make use of you as cheap labour and earn a lot of money of you, putting you in bad houses or even caravans, etc. It would not be needed, if Poles would fight for their collective rights ! But indeed.. somehow, Poles are easy to make use of."

This is common to all immigrants in every country on Earth. That's why your employees offer us jobs - because they can cut corners and pay us less. If immigrants start protesting, they lose jobs because why would your companies pay as much to unknown foreigners, who don't even speak Dutch, as they would pay to you Dutch people?
Da Rossa
Tomberry, now I've read it through.

Quote:
Da Rossa, Poland is a country of relatively cheap labour. It seems like it's a good business, because a lot of companies outsource work to Poland - we're intelligent and relatively hard working but pretty cheap at the same time.


This seems to be an unstable scenario. If the workforce is qualified, I don't see how this quality vs. price relation sticks in time for that long. Isn't it high time the polish start... demanding more?

Quote:
On the other hand, our economy is a European money toilet of sorts - people come to do their dirty work and then make money off it elsewhere. This money could be made by Polish businessmen to empower the Polish economy.


And why isn't it?

Quote:
It's our (employees) fault partially though, we rarely sue companies that abuse us and if we'd be doing that more, they would stop doing that. If I had employer like that and wouldn't like him, I'd definitely gather evidence material and when it's time to leave the work, I'd sue and tell the court that was the reason I quit


@LxGoodies

Quote:
Sue ? Why not vote other politicians, tonberry.. Poland is a democracy, isn't it ?


What exactly is the problem? A lawsuit is a democratic instrument. Not only the legislative branch must be shaken, but the judiciary too. And it is good that Poland has two (three, actually) separate branches. The two fronts of battle (not to be confused with revolution or violent uprisal) should be carried out independently: voting for better politicians and seeking compensation for the abuse of rights in the judiciary.

Quote:
Here, in the Netherlands, political parties on the left and unions struggled for years, to improve the situation. Now we hardly have any poor people left, mainly middle class, working hard and with good motivation. You Poles come work here because you get better pay. But actually, our employers underpay the Poles.. they make use of you as cheap labour and earn a lot of money of you, putting you in bad houses or even caravans, etc. It would not be needed, if Poles would fight for their collective rights ! But indeed.. somehow, Poles are easy to make use of. And employers do.. not only in Poland.


You see tonberry? Now you have a "in-house" testimonial. LxGoodies, what about Brazilians in the Netherlands?

Quote:
That's what we are about to do in two weeks and the ruling party is finally going away after 8 years


Wow, I envy you. At least you polish have a shorter fuse: here in Brazil, it's been 13 years and counting!

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It's not as simple as vote for someone and things will magically change. It never is.


Hey, please, do not scare me. What do you have in mind? Please don't tell me you're for grabbing rifles and joining your pals at the main square!

Quote:
Here, in the Poland, political parties on the left have been doing everything they can to destroy this country for the last 70 years Smile Luckily, judging from polls it looks like their time has come, or at least they will start to struggle.


One more reason for me to tell you something: love your country. There are worse out there. In that matter, Brazil included: the left here has been in power since the '88 Constitution.

Quote:
f immigrants start protesting, they...

...start being even more discriminated or banished Very Happy
tonberry
Da Rossa wrote:
If the workforce is qualified, I don't see how this quality vs. price relation sticks in time for that long. Isn't it high time the polish start... demanding more?


Unfortunately, politicians and the media brainwash us that this is good. Big corporations pay very little taxes and on top of that our tax office is less and less successful year on year anyway - successful GDP taxing went from 17.5% to 13.5% in 4 years. The idea that gets through the media is that big companies choose our country to make business in so we should be happy. At the same time, they completely ignore the fact that so many do so because we're selling ourselves cheap.

Another thing is that in modern Europe, patriotism is considered something to be ashamed of. If you're a patriot, you're a nationalist. If you're a nationalist, you're a nazi! Modern propaganda logic Smile This idea is spread in our country so deeply to prevent it from standing for its rights when big corporations and shady European Union deals grab their hands to take whatever they want. Of course when it's time for them to show solidarity, they are only protecting their business (and WILL sue in Trans-Pacific Partnership courts if anyone dares to oppose!). But if we want to protect our businesses, suddenly we're these primitive people who don't show European solidarity. It always goes one way.

Quote:
Wow, I envy you. At least you polish have a shorter fuse: here in Brazil, it's been 13 years and counting!


We have been fooled for 8 years but the way they handle immigration has hit the nail in their coffins! Luckily, sometimes good things come out of bad things Very Happy
Da Rossa
Quote:
Another thing is that in modern Europe, patriotism is considered something to be ashamed of. If you're a patriot, you're a nationalist. If you're a nationalist, you're a nazi! Modern propaganda logic Smile This idea is spread in our country so deeply to prevent it from standing for its rights when big corporations and shady European Union deals grab their hands to take whatever they want. Of course when it's time for them to show solidarity, they are only protecting their business (and WILL sue in Trans-Pacific Partnership courts if anyone dares to oppose!). But if we want to protect our businesses, suddenly we're these primitive people who don't show European solidarity. It always goes one way.


OMG this makes sense. In Europe, national identity has become a taboo. I don't see what exactly is bad about nationalism. If the nazis were nationalists, this is a circumstance.
The mechanics about solidarity is also very convenient. Maybe idealised by a genius, sorry.
tonberry
Yeah, it's the XXI century, borders aren't questioned, wars aren't fought between civilized countries so cooperation plays bigger role. On top of that, there are powerful countries like yours. Even if an average standard of living in Brazil isn't big, you country is still huge, populated and therefore very powerful economically.

In order to compete, Europe has to step up and start cooperating more so the whole continent can become a force to be reckoned with. It works to some degree, but EU is so corrupted and looking for the interests of its most powerful members only while constantly increasing marginalization of its weaker members that it's clear for a long time what their true intentions are - to create one supercountry. One government, one rule. Without the need to kill everyone who oppose. Their weapon is "humanitarianism", "liberalism" etc. etc. Won't you sacrifice another piece of your independence and individual sustainability for the greater good? Oh you selfish you! Here's some money to wipe your tears with.
deanhills
tonberry wrote:
but EU is so corrupted and looking for the interests of its most powerful members only while constantly increasing marginalization of its weaker members that it's clear for a long time what their true intentions are - to create one supercountry.
That's so very true. It feels almost like moving back to despotism. Keeping people in bondage with their financial arrangements. I also feel the same about corruption with looking after the most powerful financial corporations only. The one's that are cross Europe and you see their products in many languages. They're also the ones that probably finance Merkel and others indirectly, i.e. backing them for re-election.
tonberry
Yeah, it's one rotting financial knot that bleeds this world dry. USA has it the worst, ironically, I think. Despite running worldwide scams 365 days a year, it's drowning in debt ocean. Scammers get theirs, everyone else doesn't see a dime.

Ironically, taking things one step back is the solution to this mess - bankers use socialism as their tool for success - remove all borders, we are all one big family etc. Propagating this ideology slowly reduces any obstacles that corporations face when doing business on global scale. Putting national interest in front of false multi-culti advertisement cuts their ties and brings local businesses back to the game to level the playing field.
Da Rossa
Quote:
On top of that, there are powerful countries like yours.


Mine?? Read the topic title, this is Brazil! With our current government, this is indeed a 'diplomatic dwarf', a very fit expression by a Israeli aide. We're far from powerful. We only have power when it comes to giving billions to Cuba, Bolivia and Venezuela or forgiving debts from African countries.

Quote:
Even if an average standard of living in Brazil isn't big, you country is still huge, populated and therefore very powerful economically.


Money is not the whole picture... and we're facing a crisis triggered by our government...

Ah! Greater good my a**. I have sympathy for your feelings about that. But ok, if they (the EU countries, particularly the strongest) are seeking a more solid, common block, then they probably have elected an enemy. Who is that?

Quote:
Putting national interest in front of false multi-culti advertisement cuts their ties and brings local businesses back to the game to level the playing field.


Is that a common idea/complaint among the polish population, specially among the politicians?
tonberry
Da Rossa wrote:
Money is not the whole picture... and we're facing a crisis triggered by our government...


Perhaps I didn't phrase things properly - I meant that your country is very big so even if the economy suffers, you will always be big players on the international forum. I understand your frustration about the state of things, as i.e. France has stronger economy than yours despite having a population 3 times smaller than Brazil and tons of problems of their own (like the backlash of the 75% rich tax fiasco).

Da Rossa wrote:
Ah! Greater good my a**. I have sympathy for your feelings about that. But ok, if they (the EU countries, particularly the strongest) are seeking a more solid, common block, then they probably have elected an enemy. Who is that?


Russia is the number one enemy in the region, as they are trying to take over Ukraine and mess around in various other ways like blatantly creating USA's opposite front in Syria by supporting Assad, aiding migrant crisis (Russian mafia is heavily engaged in making illegal documents and organizing transportation to Europe for "refugees"), steering away countries from the "Western way" (destroying NATO progress with Serbia by giving them a helping hand and arming them heavily). Russia also actively tries to monopolize the energy market (gas mainly) and terrorizes countries which act pro-USA or anti-Russian by threatening to cut down supplies and by rising prices for each m3 for every country that "misbehaves".

Germany and Brussels are at the heart of European Union though and the first country has a long history of positive political and economical relationships with Russia. So, ironically, EU's heart regularly goes to bed with its biggest threat, doing business to blindly gain money when it clearly destabilizes the EU, or at least its eastern flank which is closest to Russia. Nord Stream 2 being the best example of that. Extremely dangerous game those idiots are playing, all just to gain money, without any long term consideration, with smaller countries the first ones to pay but everyone losing, one way or the other. Everyone except corporations that make money off of those deals, of course.

As for declared enemies of EU, there are none, actually. There is no scarecrow. Any wrongdoings go in the name of noble intentions here are hidden behind fake courtesies and higher moral ground judgements.

Da Rossa wrote:
Putting national interest in front of false multi-culti advertisement cuts their ties and brings local businesses back to the game to level the playing field.


Quote:
Is that a common idea/complaint among the polish population, specially among the politicians?


I haven't heard anyone speaking about fighting corporations by closing boarders, people wouldn't take kindly to that anyway probably. As for the need to look closer at national interests in light of global corporations abuse, it is a common theme in Poland and in whole Europe lately, as people realize more and more every day how much they are getting screwed by the system.
Da Rossa
I'm back at this topic!

Quote:
Perhaps I didn't phrase things properly - I meant that your country is very big so even if the economy suffers, you will always be big players on the international forum. I understand your frustration about the state of things, as i.e. France has stronger economy than yours despite having a population 3 times smaller than Brazil and tons of problems of their own (like the backlash of the 75% rich tax fiasco).


International forum?? Like an israeli said, Brazil is a diplomatic dwarf, and I agree. People here in Brazil are literally losing their memory about the prices as they were two years ago. They don't stand up for a bogus, corrupt, disqualified government. And they have their manpower to fill the streets in a business day so people think they have support. Only Dilma Rousseff has 7% popularity here, 10% according to the most favourable pollings.

I agree about that tax rate being a fiasco in France. They're this close of implementing something similar here in Brazil.

Quote:
Russia is the number one enemy in the region, as they are trying to take over Ukraine and mess around in various other ways like blatantly creating USA's opposite front in Syria by supporting Assad, aiding migrant crisis (Russian mafia is heavily engaged in making illegal documents and organizing transportation to Europe for "refugees"), steering away countries from the "Western way" (destroying NATO progress with Serbia by giving them a helping hand and arming them heavily). Russia also actively tries to monopolize the energy market (gas mainly) and terrorizes countries which act pro-USA or anti-Russian by threatening to cut down supplies and by rising prices for each m3 for every country that "misbehaves".


I knew Russia does everything in its power to make a stand in the eastern Europe region, but I was completely unaware that the mafia is busy creating false documents for 'regugees'. I believe this all has everything to do with the Eurasian doctrine Putin is pushing westwards.

Quote:
As for declared enemies of EU, there are none, actually. There is no scarecrow. Any wrongdoings go in the name of noble intentions here are hidden behind fake courtesies and higher moral ground judgements.


No EU leader wants to come forward to point finger at anyone besides ISIS, which is stateless. If a western European country or leader were to name an enemy, what would they be? (The country and the enemy, in your intuition?)
tonberry
Sorry, didn't notice your response.

Quote:

No EU leader wants to come forward to point finger at anyone besides ISIS, which is stateless. If a western European country or leader were to name an enemy, what would they be? (The country and the enemy, in your intuition?)


That is a tough question that I'm too green to answer. I'm sure that to some extent, the perpetrators are, just like ISIS, stateless too. Banks, corporations, Soros and the likes of him. As the boundaries for international business are eroding, so do probably localizations - people responsible are having no loyalty to anything except for their cashflow, which comes from all directions. To know the answer to your question, we'd have to follow the money trail and the truth will surely be at the end of it Smile All countries are playing dirty games one way or the other, it's just that countries like USA and Russia play the dirtiest of them all! Sorry for a useless answer haha.
Da Rossa
tonberry wrote:
Sorry, didn't notice your response.

That is a tough question that I'm too green to answer. I'm sure that to some extent, the perpetrators are, just like ISIS, stateless too. Banks, corporations, Soros and the likes of him. As the boundaries for international business are eroding, so do probably localizations - people responsible are having no loyalty to anything except for their cashflow, which comes from all directions. To know the answer to your question, we'd have to follow the money trail and the truth will surely be at the end of it Smile All countries are playing dirty games one way or the other, it's just that countries like USA and Russia play the dirtiest of them all! Sorry for a useless answer haha.


I'm back at this topic!

Yes you're right that the organised crime is borderless, so as the corporations, but it goes only until some extent. There is a point in which oppression or terror is backed up by states and governments, who sponsor them or, at least, ommit on condemning. Example: in Brazil, the suspended president Dilma Rousseff said "FARC is not a Brazilian problem". Only it is. They operate on Amazon Forest and nothing says they can't already have an advanced outpost in our territory to operate their drug, guerilla and kidnapping business. Turns out both FARC and Rousseff are members of the same protocol of intentions called Foro de São Paulo. A reunion of left-wing organisations in latin america with a single major agenda: implanting here what failed on the Eastern Europe. Yes, communism.

But that's beside the point Razz
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