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Same-sex marriage opponents in U.S.





Domikrohn
A very controversial topic right now in the US is same-sex marriage. Everyone has different opinions on this matter so I will try to stay as neutral as possible. As you may already know, roughly 2 dozen states in the US are not against same-sex marriage. The number is growing quickly, and the fact remains that many citizens are in an uproar and are completely against it. The advocates for same-sex marriage are also pressing hard, but according to some same-sex marriage opponents, they will keep fighting despite the fact that gay rights are "winning", to say the least.

Quote:
Not so fast, say those opposed to letting same-sex couples tie the knot; the battle is not over.

"We aren't waving a white flag at this point," Julaine Appling, president of a group called Wisconsin Family Action, said in an interview. "It's premature to say that this is all over."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/same-sex-marriage-opponents-in-u-s-aren-t-waving-a-white-flag-1.2793879

Personally I have do not have a problem with gay rights. I would like to see same-sex marriage be legal all around the world, but we all know that isn't going to happen for a long while. Due to the amount of heat following this topic, I wanted to bring more attention to it and see what opinions the other members of Frihost have. It certainly will be interesting to see a discussion of different beliefs. Please try to keep it civil if you do reply, as this is all just a matter of opinion, not a war.
Afaceinthematrix
This isn't really a matter of opinion. It doesn't really matter what your opinion is on the topic of gay rights. This is an issue of guaranteeing an equal protection under the law for all groups and ensuring that the LGBT is given the rights that they are guaranteed by the constitution. That is why we are moving away from voting on this topic in election and moving towards the SCOTUS ruling on the matter from an objective legal point-of-view.
Domikrohn
You're right on that one, Afaceinthematrix, but to some it is. Religious groups have a lot of power in terms of whats "right" and what is "wrong", and when a large portion of them say gay-rights are bad, people will listen to their opinion. Whether or not it is the "right" opinion, it is still an opinion. Some people may think that the LGBT community are all devil-worshippers, and to them that is fact in their mind.
Quote:
Everyone has different opinions on this matter so I will try to stay as neutral as possible.

Some people strongly believe in the Bible, specifically Leviticus 20:13. This is partly where the controversial part of homosexuality comes from. They feel that their beliefs are being ignored, despite the obvious implications from the constitution.

One example of such is here: http://www.bible.ca/s-homo=sin.htm

Just because you think it isn't a matter of opinion (fact), doesn't mean others don't believe it isn't either. Let's not let this slide away from the original topic, which is that people are getting angry over change. And this change is completely against their beliefs. Wars have been started in the past due to strong beliefs.
Afaceinthematrix
Sure, these religious right have their opinion. Whatever, that's fine. However, we do not live in a theocracy and their religion isn't the basis of our law. Therefore, their opinion doesn't matter when it comes to making law. We have a clearly defined constitution and bill of rights and that guarantees equal protection under the law. That's why the SCOTUS keeps overturning these laws (DOMA, Prop 8, etc.). They have found them to be unconstitutional. These laws clearly undermined the constitution and anyone who simply reads the constitution can see them. This shouldn't even be a debate. Eventually SCOTUS will just make a final ruling and that will be that. Civil rights should NEVER be left to a vote. EVER. These religious right know that they're losing this battle in the States which is why many of them are taking their battle overseas to various countries in Africa.
kaysch
I do not have any objection to same-sex marriages. In Germany it has been legal for 13 years now to have registered partnerships, which is sort of an equivalent to marriages. I am not sure about the exact legal differences, but I suppose they are marginal. I think there is no reason why two people should not marry if they decide to do so, whether they belong to the same sex or not, it's a private affair and should be none of a government's business. With regards to adoption of children I am not sure whether it's a good idea though. I tend to believe that children should be raised by a male and a female although I agree there are many unhappy marriages, so I am not sure.
On Wikipedia there is an interesting overview of worldwide law referring to same-sex marriage. The legal consequences range from perfectly fine to death penalty. I find it interesting to see how different the same issue is being handled around the world. When I see that overview I have to admit I have to say I am happy I am not gay.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage
Afaceinthematrix
There has actually been significant research showing that same sex couples on average are much better parents (in terms of how successful their children are, college rates, crime rates of children, etc.).

I think that these statistics are slightly misleading because homosexual parents are probably equally as good as heterosexual parents and the statistics probably come from the fact that half of pregnancies are unplanned and so you have a lot of children born into dysfunctional families where the parents never wanted the child whereas almost one-hundred percent (I'm saying almost because you can probably find some obscure counter-example) of homosexual couples that have children chose to have children. This means that they were probably financially settled and ready to raise a child.
Domikrohn
In Canada we don't have laws against same-sex marriage, yet many people I know seem to believe it is vile and disgusting. It doesn't seem to matter what their age is. The media often likes to back-up same-sex marriage whilst shaming other countries and continents for their restrictions and laws regarding the LGBT community. African countries in particular seem to have been receiving the short-end of the stick. The media tends to exaggerate topics and I'm wondering what citizens from countries other than the US or Canada have going on pertaining to the current topic. Canada right now is relatively quiet. Many European and N/S American countries do not have laws against same-sex marriage.

Quote:
I think there is no reason why two people should not marry if they decide to do so, whether they belong to the same sex or not, it's a private affair and should be none of a government's business.


I think the same way, but many people right now do not. Like you said, kaysch, some people will stone a homosexual or bisexual to death because of their orientation. That's just sheer discrimination and shows how an opinion, if it has a large following, can wreck havoc. It's the same with terrorism.

Quote:
Civil rights should NEVER be left to a vote. EVER.


You're completely right. Some people however just can't get their mind and thoughts to the present time. They keep thinking like barbarians, where if a majority is in favour of beheading a man for believing that a woman has equal rights to a man, it will be law. That's the past, and some people can't get out of the past.
kaysch
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
There has actually been significant research showing that same sex couples on average are much better parents (in terms of how successful their children are, college rates, crime rates of children, etc.).

I have just read a study by the German ministry of justice.
http://www.bmjv.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/pdfs/Forschungsbericht_Die_Lebenssituation_von_Kindern_in_gleichgeschlechtlichen_Lebenspartnerschaften.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

They come to the following conclusions:
- It many ways it does not matter whether the parents are of same or opposite sex: there is no significant difference with regards to children's behaviour or development. What matters is the quality of the relationships between the family members, not its structure.
- Children of rainbow families are reported to have a higher self-esteem and more autonomy in their relationships to their parents

If that study reflects reality rather than being politically motivated (one never knows) I have no objection to rainbow families having children. And of course there are many ways they can have children, for example as a result of a prior opposite-sex relationship


Afaceinthematrix wrote:
Civil rights should NEVER be left to a vote. EVER.

I disagree. Every constitution reflects public opinion and should be therefore be subject to a vote. What is the alternative? Implementing a dictator who chooses which civil rights are best for a nation?
Domikrohn
Quote:
Civil rights should NEVER be left to a vote. EVER.

I disagree. Every constitution reflects public opinion and should be therefore be subject to a vote. What is the alternative? Implementing a dictator who chooses which civil rights are best for a nation?


You make a fair point, but either way there are issues. If Yes, then like you said a dictatorship could choose what is best for a nation (or him/her). If No, then a more controlling entity such as Islam could impose that women are not legally allowed to marry by their choice, for example. Keep in mind that what I just said was an example, and in no way a representation of all of Islam. Some religions could have more grip over one country, and other religions might be pushed aside and ignored if a majority are of one religion. Influential groups, or groups with plenty of money also come into play. It might not just be a Yes or No question. Perhaps I should remove my "Agree" choice in light of this.
Afaceinthematrix
kaysch wrote:
I have just read a study by the German ministry of justice.
http://www.bmjv.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/pdfs/Forschungsbericht_Die_Lebenssituation_von_Kindern_in_gleichgeschlechtlichen_Lebenspartnerschaften.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

They come to the following conclusions:
- It many ways it does not matter whether the parents are of same or opposite sex: there is no significant difference with regards to children's behaviour or development. What matters is the quality of the relationships between the family members, not its structure.
- Children of rainbow families are reported to have a higher self-esteem and more autonomy in their relationships to their parents

If that study reflects reality rather than being politically motivated (one never knows) I have no objection to rainbow families having children. And of course there are many ways they can have children, for example as a result of a prior opposite-sex relationship


That was actually my point. I said that it doesn't make any difference and the reason why children from homosexual parents statistically end up better off is simply because they are always planned. A planned child from heterosexual parents would statistically be just as well off.


Quote:
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
Civil rights should NEVER be left to a vote. EVER.

I disagree. Every constitution reflects public opinion and should be therefore be subject to a vote. What is the alternative? Implementing a dictator who chooses which civil rights are best for a nation?


That's extremely outdated thinking. The U.S. actually fought a war over this idea. Quite a few people in the South didn't want slavery to end. Theoretically, if we voted to reinstate slavery, and 51% of people voted in favor, then does that justify re-enslaving people of African descent? What about giving women the right to vote? I am sure that wasn't popular opinion upon men (who were the only ones able to vote at that time which means that the majority of people would have voted AGAINST woman suffrage. However, women fought for their RIGHT and were granted suffrage). Jim Crow laws? Any person with an ounce of morality knows that you can't vote on peoples' rights. Human rights need to be granted; not voted on. That's why we have a Supreme Court. I have no right to vote on if you receive human rights or not. You're guaranteed civil rights.
coolclay
I am a firm opponent of artificial insemination or other pregnancy "cheats" for not only homosexual parents but for everyone in general. Why the hell are we spending millions of dollars to bring more children into this world, when we can't even take care of the ones that exist!

As for same sex marriage, whatever I could care less. It doesn't affect me so why should I care.
Afaceinthematrix
coolclay wrote:
As for same sex marriage, whatever I could care less. It doesn't affect me so why should I care.


Empathy? Compassion towards people actively being discriminated against? Child molestation doesn't affect me and so why should I care?

That's why you should care. Unless your "It doesn't affect me so why should I care" is referring to the idea that other people's marriages aren't any of your business.

Furthermore, it does affect you. The idea that it's okay to push your person religious beliefs onto everyone else, actively discriminate against a group of people, and run this country as a theocracy is the general idea that opponents of homosexual marriage share and that does not sound like a good society to me.
grofet
They keep some kind of mental abnormality as something normal. All LGBT should be cure so they can be normal person (straight). Government respect people with sexual problem, but the not respect normal people that sick with LGBT. What they do is make God mad. God already destroyed many civilization on the past because of false sex.
BigGeek
In the US a marriage license is for legal purposes, and it is typically a document filed with the state or local government that allows the couple access to each others property and money. Problem with gay couples and the complaint of the LGBT community is that couples that were together for long periods of time and one of them passed away. The remaining spouse was unable to claim any of their partners property - it went to next of kin because their partnership is not recognized by the local governments.

Allowing LGBT couples a marriage license also allows them to file taxes as "Married filing jointly" which gives them a few breaks financially.

All and all it is more of a legal and tax thing than a religious thing. I live in Boulder Colorado which was one of the first places to start issuing marriage licenses to gay couples. Personally I do not care what someone else does sexually as long as it doesn't infringe or bother me.

Like I always say, let them get married and pay taxes as married, and have to go through divorce if they split up, fine by me! Wink
loveandormoney
Domikrohn wrote:
A very controversial topic right now in the US is same-sex marriage. Everyone has different opinions on this matter so I will try to stay as neutral as possible. As you may already know, roughly 2 dozen states in the US are not against same-sex marriage. The number is growing quickly, and the fact remains that many citizens are in an uproar and are completely against it. The advocates for same-sex marriage are also pressing hard, but according to some same-sex marriage opponents, they will keep fighting despite the fact that gay rights are "winning", to say the least.

Quote:
Not so fast, say those opposed to letting same-sex couples tie the knot; the battle is not over.

"We aren't waving a white flag at this point," Julaine Appling, president of a group called Wisconsin Family Action, said in an interview. "It's premature to say that this is all over."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/same-sex-marriage-opponents-in-u-s-aren-t-waving-a-white-flag-1.2793879

Personally I have do not have a problem with gay rights. I would like to see same-sex marriage be legal all around the world, but we all know that isn't going to happen for a long while. Due to the amount of heat following this topic, I wanted to bring more attention to it and see what opinions the other members of Frihost have. It certainly will be interesting to see a discussion of different beliefs. Please try to keep it civil if you do reply, as this is all just a matter of opinion, not a war.



















US?



USA?



Lets go 2,000 years back. A great culture was destroyed because that times boys dated boys.
Ankhanu
loveandormoney wrote:
Lets go 2,000 years back. A great culture was destroyed because that times boys dated boys.


Care to explain?
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