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Concerning Israel (Side-topic, slit from main)





truespeed
[Mod]
This sidetrack developed in the thread on forgiveness. I want to avoid sidetracking the thead but, at the same time, there appeared to be some genuine discussion which would be lost if I simply spamcanned the postings. I have therefore split the postings into a new thread.
Bikerman

[/Mod]

^^ For those who were alive during the war I can understand not forgiving,for those born to those alive during the war,I can still understand a lack of forgiveness,but any generation after that,there comes a time to let it go,Germany now isn't the same country it was in 1945. Germans of today shouldn't feel any guilt,as they say,the past is another country_
Bikerman
I say this with not an anti-Semitic thought that I can find, but it sometimes strikes me that many of the people with most STILL to learn about the Holocaust are currently in power - in Israel.
And if anyone cannot distinguish anti-Semitism from anti-Zionism (not that I am even that) then I respectfully suggest they are in the wrong forum and might find places more suitable to their needs.

(And that includes Aaron and Ben who wrote a passionate article on my website on this matter stating with the 'FACT' that I was anti-Semitic and working from that starting point. )...
No chaps, just...well, just no.
LxGoodies
Bikerman wrote:
I say this with not an anti-Semitic thought that I can find, but it sometimes strikes me that many of the people with most STILL to learn about the Holocaust are currently in power - in Israel.
And if anyone cannot distinguish anti-Semitism from anti-Zionism (not that I am even that) then I respectfully suggest they are in the wrong forum and might find places more suitable to their needs.

(And that includes Aaron and Ben who wrote a passionate article on my website on this matter stating with the 'FACT' that I was anti-Semitic and working from that starting point. )...
No chaps, just...well, just no.

Agree.. the anti-semitism frame is used a lot to silence Israel-critics.. while the same people who use that frame defend the Gaza attacks, that is bombing civilians. As for zionism, maybe people (also jews !) should have the opportunity to live anywhere they want.. In my view, Israel solved a problem in 1948 which should disappear in time, or should have disappeared in time. As anti-semitism is still wide spread in e.g. Eastern Europe and the muslim world, Israel has a right to be, despite the atrocities its government commits. A two-country solution and peace with the Palestinians is the only way forward. If only..

Generations after the war: my submit was a response to Indi, illustrating the "not necessarily against you" he mensioned. Forgiving Germany for the Shoah could also mean, in he long term, that the Shoah and (especially) the political scenario that lead to it would cease being an important reference: it would disappear in history books.

That should not happen. "Nie Wieder" not only refers to WW-II and the jews, but also to modern scapegoating tactics used by our current politicians. In my view, populists like Geert Wilders and Jean-Marie Le Pen appeal to similar ignorance and misunderstandings about immigrant minorities.
Bikerman
LxGoodies wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
I say this with not an anti-Semitic thought that I can find, but it sometimes strikes me that many of the people with most STILL to learn about the Holocaust are currently in power - in Israel.
And if anyone cannot distinguish anti-Semitism from anti-Zionism (not that I am even that) then I respectfully suggest they are in the wrong forum and might find places more suitable to their needs.

(And that includes Aaron and Ben who wrote a passionate article on my website on this matter stating with the 'FACT' that I was anti-Semitic and working from that starting point. )...
No chaps, just...well, just no.

Agree.. the anti-semitism frame is used a lot to silence Israel-critics.. while the same people who use that frame defend the Gaza attacks, that is bombing civilians. As for zionism, maybe people (also jews !) should have the opportunity to live anywhere they want.. In my view, Israel solved a problem in 1948 which should disappear in time, or should have disappeared in time. As anti-semitism is still wide spread in e.g. Eastern Europe and the muslim world, Israel has a right to be, despite the atrocities its government commits. A two-country solution and peace with the Palestinians is the only way forward. If only..
I agree that Israel has a right to be, as a state - which is why I say that I'm not an anti-Zionist. The problem is that Israel is protected by the US from the accountability that applies to other states. Israel has never, in my judgement, been genuine about a two-state solution and has simply played games to stall when required.
Quote:
We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return. The old will die and the young will forget.
Ben Gurion, 1948

Let us approach them [the Palestinian refugees in the occupied territories] and say that we have no solution, that you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wants to can leave -- and we will see where this process leads. In five years we may have 200,000 less people - and that is a matter of enormous importance.
Moshe Dyan, 1967

We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them, ... we'll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlements right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years' time, neither the United Nations nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart.
Ariel Sharron 1973

Our sufferings have granted us immunity papers, as it were . . . After what all those dirty goyim have done to us, none of them is entitled to preach morality to us. We, on the other hand, have carte blanche, because we were victims and have suffered so much. Once a victim, always a victim, and victimhood entitles its owners to a moral exemption.
Amos Oz, 1982

When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.
Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more.
Ehud Barak, 2000

Today there is no separation [between an anti-Semitism that should be condemned and a legitimate criticism toward Israel's policies]. We are talking about collective anti-Semitism.
Ariel Sharon, 2003
LxGoodies
Bikerman wrote:
Israel has never, in my judgement, been genuine about a two-state solution and has simply played games to stall when required.

.. you cite military people and Likud polticians. The Barak quote is questionable..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1758527&mesg_id=1761229

Labor party has favoured the two-state solution for 20 years, the most agressive quote of a Labor politician I can find is Hilik Bar, stating the following, 3 days ago..

Quote:
I'm from the Israeli Opposition; it's not natural and obvious for us to support the Prime Minister or to say that he's right. But Hamas is acting the same as ISIS is doing in other countries. You see the executions of people in the middle of Gaza, you see the unacceptable behaviour, the shooting missiles on civilians in Israel. They are belonging to the same family - again, the family that want to live here instead of us, instead of Israeli, instead of Australians. They don't respect and not acknowledge any other way of life but their own and I think that it's sometimes hard to see that they are cut from the same tree, but it's actually, unfortunately, the truth. By the way, as for speaking with Hamas, we will happily speak with Hamas if Hamas will do what Fatah did 20 years ago and that is to understand that we can live here next to each other, to understand you cannot eliminate Israel and you cannot make us go away from here. I remind you that Fatah were a terror group many years ago and they made the shift that Hamas will have to do if it want Israel and other parts of the world to speak with Hamas.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2014/s4080511.htm

.. and I think that would be a quite acceptable basis for negotiation.. even with Hamas..
Bikerman
Huh? How the hell can you question my sources like that? I chose carefully.
I cited Sharon - ex Prime Minister of Israel.
Barak - ex Prime Minister of Israel and ex head of the Labour party
Dayan - ex foreign minister as well as head of the military.
Gurion - founder and first leader / Prime Minister

What I tried to do was supply a snapshot across the decades of Israel's existence, showing a consistent and top-down attitude and, often, explicit assertion, that Israel does not and never did want a 2 state solution. I didn't pick some extreme military types, or marginal field-commanders. I took the most important opinions in Israel at the time of each quote.
Also, to say I used 'military' sources is disingenuous, since military service is mandatory and political leaders are often ex-military, and the leading voices are nearly ALWAYS reliant upon, or directly from, that same military machine. The quotes I used represented the most powerful voices in Israel at those times and, in most cases, were policy - whether explicit or not.

You also say I used a 'doubtful' quote. I emphatically (and quite angrily) dispute that. The'crocodile' quote was spoken August 28, 2000 (when, incidentally, he was Prime Minister) and reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000. I have volumes of quotes - many much worse that the ones I cited. I don't need to use dodgy sources or invent them.

Quoting the opposition is never much use in analysis since the opposition can say what they like. It would be like analysing British Politics by looking at the statements of the Labour party under Thatcher (extremely left wing) or The SDP/Liberals at any time. That is why I chose actual Prime Ministers and chiefs with the actual power.
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