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Ukraine is not part of Russia, it is European country





pravojednostavno
Ukraine is the biggest country in Europe. Due to its fertile conditions, Ukraine has been one of the powerhouses, throughout its history. Its agriculture had always been a stumbling stone between Russia and Ukraine. Soviet Union leaders killed more Ukrainians than Nazis.

Quote:
The trigger was the government's decision not to sign a far-reaching partnership deal with the EU, despite years of negotiations aimed at integrating Ukraine with the 28-nation bloc. That decision was announced on 21 November.

Thousands of pro-EU Ukrainians poured onto the streets of the capital - on 24 November the crowd was estimated at more than 350,000. They urged President Viktor Yanukovych to cancel his U-turn and go ahead with the EU deal after all. But he refused, and the protests continue.

Anger with President Yanukovych has escalated, and now protesters are demanding that he and his government resign.

source BBC news http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/europe/
jajarvin
pravojednostavno wrote:
Ukraine is the biggest country in Europe.


France is Eurora's biggest country by area. List of countries and dependencies by area

France has an area of 640 427 km² and Ukraine is about 61 097 km² smaller than France.
Peterssidan
Europe is a continent to which Ukraine and part of Russia belong. EU is a union between countries. I see no reason why EU should care about the exact borders of Europe when deciding who can join. There are much more important criteria. It could leave out countries inside Europe and include countries from outside Europe but if it includes too many non-European countries it would probably have to change its name.

If the pro-EU Ukrainians lives mainly in one part of the country and the pro-Russian Ukrainians lives mainly in the other part of the country couldn't they just split Ukraine into two countries? I don't say that would guarantee a EU membership but at least they don't have to argue so much inside their own country.
deanhills
Peterssidan wrote:
If the pro-EU Ukrainians lives mainly in one part of the country and the pro-Russian Ukrainians lives mainly in the other part of the country couldn't they just split Ukraine into two countries? I don't say that would guarantee a EU membership but at least they don't have to argue so much inside their own country.
Sounds logical. But then it could happen like in Sudan. Sudan split up into two countries, North and South, and now there are two groups fighting one another in the South and pushing half of the South up into North Sudan. I wonder if those people have just got used to fighting for generations and generations and maybe splitting them up into two separate countries can't get rid of that fighting. Like the country has a certain template of fighting and it will just be copied to both countries when they split.
Nick2008
Russia is the largest country in Europe, in fact, it takes up 40% of the European continent. Ukraine would be second and France would be third, as long as we're counting only the European area. France is larger than Ukraine only if its dependencies are factored in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_area

And splitting a country into two isn't a simple process and is rarely civil. I doubt that splitting Ukraine into two would solve anything. It would probably increase tensions even more...
deanhills
One thing that is interesting is that Google must have decided the Ukraine is part of Russia as the Google Search Engine for people in the Ukraine defaults to Russia - .ru. Wonder how long it will take for the Ukraine to block Google? Razz
Klaw 2
jajarvin wrote:
pravojednostavno wrote:
Ukraine is the biggest country in Europe.


France is Eurora's biggest country by area. List of countries and dependencies by area

France has an area of 640 427 km² and Ukraine is about 61 097 km² smaller than France.



You should read what was in the notes section -_-;
(Includes overseas regions, but excludes overseas territories and collectivities, shown separately.)
SonLight
deanhills wrote:
One thing that is interesting is that Google must have decided the Ukraine is part of Russia as the Google Search Engine for people in the Ukraine defaults to Russia - .ru. Wonder how long it will take for the Ukraine to block Google? Razz


Looking at google language settings, it appears that Ukranian is not available. It seems reasonable that Russian would be the default for Ukraine, since many inhabitants speak Russian and the languages are quite similar.

At the moment, there might well be friction over this though. It seems reasonable that some Ukranians might protest to Google that they really ought to have a Ukranian interface.

When the US was unhappy with France a few years ago, restaurants in Washington DC refused to sell French fries -- they started calling them American fries instead!
StriderVM
The only reason I knew Ukraine is not a part of Russia is because of Red Alert and it's multiplayer component...... Very Happy

Seriously though I'm kinda worried about the events there. It's a very tense kind of saber rattling due to Russia being forced to do it's bravado over the other countries near it due to the EU. Although I think this will not turn into World War 3 even if it ends up being a real war between Russia and the West. And that is even for me pretty unlikely.

If such a big/influencial country such as Russia goes to war, everyone suffers economically.
rx9876
I believe that most of the news are manipulated,
people outside can't figure out the whole picture of the situation.

It's natural that people have different feeling about their neighbors.
Some people like Russia, and others like the Europe.
However, it's not easy to let people of Ukraine decide their belonging peacefully.

Hope it will end peacefully, the economy is too fragile.
Nyasro
I think we need more research on this topic.
kaysch
Geographically of course Ukraine is European. And also Russia is, at least partly. But Ukraine should not become a member of the European Union. I think it would be better off if Russia invades and annexes it. Not only Crimea or South East Ukraine, but the whole country. Here are a few reasons why:

- Ukraine's GDP per capita is equal to 10% of the average in the EU
- Ukraine's democratic traditions are best described as non-existent
- The EU has repeatedly described Ukraine as having a long way to go until it reaches the legal standards necessary
- There is no need to incorporate a country with an unclear border situation. Cyprus is enough

I think Western Europe was quite well-off when we had the cold war. Let Russia have its half of Europe again and all the problems that come with it.
deanhills
kaysch wrote:
I think Western Europe was quite well-off when we had the cold war. Let Russia have its half of Europe again and all the problems that come with it.
Well said. Although I think Putin is doing it to serve Putin most. He has a big share in a Russian oil company that will benefit from annexing the Ukraine. In the end all of it is as corrupt as ever. And we as Westerners are probably looking at a part of the world that is culturally totally different from our own experiences and expectations. I agree however, let the Ukraine sort out their own destiny without the interference of the West. Wonder how happy the Ukranians will be once they are completely annexed by Russia. As far as I know no country has ever really liked the experience of being annexed by Russia. Russia can't even look after its own people properly, never mind people in other countries.

This article is interesting reading on the subject and real reasons why Russia is getting involved in the Ukraine. Anything but the benevolence of looking after fellow Russians.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/oil-and-gas-could-explain-putins-costly-attempt-to-control-the-crimea-9193464.html
zimmer
I guess they are fighting for oil. Oil is money it just like that. Money battles.

Some Ukraine supporters are being paid to support Russian soldiers that is why Ukrainian is upset to there countrymen. Russian should not take advantage on that.

What i like about American president is they apply the international sovereign law; For me this is important specially helping those in needs of military and financial support countries.
deanhills
zimmer wrote:
I guess they are fighting for oil. Oil is money it just like that. Money battles.

Some Ukraine supporters are being paid to support Russian soldiers that is why Ukrainian is upset to there countrymen. Russian should not take advantage on that.

What i like about American president is they apply the international sovereign law; For me this is important specially helping those in needs of military and financial support countries.
Totally agreed. It is all about oil, including US interest in the region from the point of view they don't want Russia to have such a strong foothold and access to the Odessa strategically for making them very powerful in oil. And much less to do with democracy and freedom.
kaysch
deanhills wrote:
It is all about oil, including US interest in the region from the point of view they don't want Russia to have such a strong foothold and access to the Odessa strategically for making them very powerful in oil. And much less to do with democracy and freedom.


That is definitely not true for Crimea. There is no major known gas or oil reservoir in Crimea or the Black Sea which would justify an annexation of Crimea. I think the whole point of invading Crimea was about the marine base in Sevastopol and the common history. I guess Crimea was just a test. We will see in the next weeks whether Russia will go for the rest of Ukraine. Geopolitically there is a point in doing so, just look at this map:

A big portion of Ukraine's energy comes from Russia, and Ukraine transists a lot to Western Europe. When Ukraine had trouble with Russia and Russia increased the gas price or stopped deliveries altogether, they simply used the quantities determined to go to Western Europe. With Russia invading Ukraine they would get a much tighter grip on Europe's energy supplies, without the interference of a swing-state like Ukraine.
deanhills
@kaysch. This article below (link previously posted) says differently. There is heavy prospecting going on for oil, particularly in the Black Sea (involving BIG players like ExxonMobil, Chevron, Shell, Repsol and Petrochina). But even if there were no oil to be found, the Ukraine also provides important oil and gas export routes to the West and the Black Sea.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/oil-and-gas-could-explain-putins-costly-attempt-to-control-the-crimea-9193464.html
Klaw 2
kaysch wrote:
Geographically of course Ukraine is European. And also Russia is, at least partly. But Ukraine should not become a member of the European Union. I think it would be better off if Russia invades and annexes it. Not only Crimea or South East Ukraine, but the whole country. Here are a few reasons why:

O yes lets give a man like Putin more and more land. He’s a power hungry man if you give him something hell take it and more… what could go wrong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement
And since when is the invasion of a country good? And since when is the suppression of a people good?

kaysch wrote:
- Ukraine's GDP per capita is equal to 10% of the average in the EU

So? If they meet the demands they meet the demands… They might have to rank their GDP for that, it’s not like they will join tomorrow…
kaysch wrote:
- Ukraine's democratic traditions are best described as non-existent

It’s had its first elections in 1991 and had elections after that yes there is corruption but it’s not like it’s North-Korea, not even close.
kaysch wrote:
- The EU has repeatedly described Ukraine as having a long way to go until it reaches the legal standards necessary

Well if they have a long way to go it will take a while… Let them get ready and join the EU… Scientist haven’t quite figured out how to use nuclear fission… so should they just give up? With an attitude like that you never get anywhere...
kaysch wrote:
- There is no need to incorporate a country with an unclear border situation. Cyprus is enough

The border situation is clear Russia is just stealing lands…
And why should Ukraine not be allowed to join because the fat guy next-door steals land? That way you make it real easy for Russia and others to sabotage anyone from joining...

And also the only two options for Ukraine are join the EU tomorrow or get attacked by Russia?

kaysch wrote:
I think Western Europe was quite well-off when we had the cold war. Let Russia have its half of Europe again and all the problems that come with it.


-_-'
That’s the most retarded thing I’ve read in a while…… let’s just give land to Russia to which Russia has no claim -_-‘. Let’s just disregard what the people who live there think. Let’s just screw them over again... Let’s give Putin strangle hold over Europe…
Putin thinks that the falling apart of communism the worst catastrophic thing that happened in the last century. He doesn’t like the West and quite often blocks the import of certain countries to force other countries to change their position...
For example when the whole anti gay law was taken there where European countries who protested among then the Netherlands. And by sheer “coincidence” certain Dutch products like vegetables weren’t let into Russia because “they weren’t save”.

I think most of eastern Europe have had more than enough of Russia, they all have been occupied by it till winter 1989 there is a reason why most former Warsaw pact countries joined NATO. If you said these kind of things out loud in Poland you’d end up on the bottom of a river...

O and yes the looming threat of a nuclear war sounds like fun… the cold war was the best time ever...

deanhills wrote:
Well said.

-_-‘ see above….

deanhills wrote:
Although I think Putin is doing it to serve Putin most. He has a big share in a Russian oil company that will benefit from annexing the Ukraine.



deanhills wrote:
In the end all of it is as corrupt as ever.

By giving those countries to Russia you ensure they are corrupt… Since Poland joined the EU it’s getting a lot better...

deanhills wrote:
And we as Westerners are probably looking at a part of the world that is culturally totally different from our own experiences and expectations. I agree however, let the Ukraine sort out their own destiny without the interference of the West.

Why should we just let Putin have what he wants?

deanhills wrote:
Wonder how happy the Ukrainians will be once they are completely annexed by Russia.

I don’t think they will be very happy since they don’t want it… There are a few ares where Russians are in the majority… Now the Crimea is gone…


deanhills wrote:
As far as I know no country has ever really liked the experience of being annexed by Russia. Russia can't even look after its own people properly, never mind people in other countries.

Why the hell would you want to give half of frigging Europe to Russia then?
kaysch
Klaw 2 wrote:
O yes lets give a man like Putin more and more land. He’s a power hungry man if you give him something hell take it and more… what could go wrong?

We’d finally have somebody to worship. A real man who wrestles with bears and stuff. Wink

Klaw 2 wrote:
And since when is the invasion of a country good? And since when is the suppression of a people good?

The problem is that it’s not that simple. There are enough people living in Ukraine who embrace the idea of joining the Russian federation – for whatever reason they may have.

Klaw 2 wrote:
kaysch wrote:
- The EU has repeatedly described Ukraine as having a long way to go until it reaches the legal standards necessary

Well if they have a long way to go it will take a while… Let them get ready and join the EU… Scientist haven’t quite figured out how to use nuclear fission… so should they just give up? With an attitude like that you never get anywhere...

I doubt Ukraine will be economically attractive enough to become an EU member for the rest of my lifetime.
Klaw 2 wrote:
And also the only two options for Ukraine are join the EU tomorrow or get attacked by Russia?

Yes. I think Ukraine has no realistic option to prosper as a neutral country in the long run.
Klaw 2 wrote:
I think most of eastern Europe have had more than enough of Russia, they all have been occupied by it till winter 1989 there is a reason why most former Warsaw pact countries joined NATO. If you said these kind of things out loud in Poland you’d end up on the bottom of a river...

East European countries were happy to join the EU and NATO not because of Russian hegemony during the Cold War but because the West seemed more attractive economically. And if Ukraine has no perspective to join the EU their best bet will be to join Russia, de facto or better de jure.
Klaw 2 wrote:
Why should we just let Putin have what he wants?

Because Ukraine will be better off as part of the Russian federation than as an semi-independent country which it is now.
Klaw 2
kaysch wrote:
Klaw 2 wrote:
O yes lets give a man like Putin more and more land. He’s a power hungry man if you give him something hell take it and more… what could go wrong?

We’d finally have somebody to worship. A real man who wrestles with bears and stuff. Wink

haha now funny aside you seriously want Russia to invade another country?

kaysch wrote:
Klaw 2 wrote:
And since when is the invasion of a country good? And since when is the suppression of a people good?

The problem is that it’s not that simple. There are enough people living in Ukraine who embrace the idea of joining the Russian federation – for whatever reason they may have.


Enough? define enough? And there are certainly parts of Ukraine that certainly dont want to and usually invasions go hand in hand with supression of one group or another...

I think you dont have any understanding of the region...

kaysch wrote:
Klaw 2 wrote:
kaysch wrote:
- The EU has repeatedly described Ukraine as having a long way to go until it reaches the legal standards necessary

Well if they have a long way to go it will take a while… Let them get ready and join the EU… Scientist haven’t quite figured out how to use nuclear fission… so should they just give up? With an attitude like that you never get anywhere...

I doubt Ukraine will be economically attractive enough to become an EU member for the rest of my lifetime.

If it takes long it takes long... I seriously doubt you know enough to have that opinion with any foundation... do you have any sources?

You dont have any understanding of the region I strongly higly estremely doubt you fare any better at economics....


kaysch wrote:
Klaw 2 wrote:
And also the only two options for Ukraine are join the EU tomorrow or get attacked by Russia?

Yes. I think Ukraine has no realistic option to prosper as a neutral country in the long run.


And again based on what? 100% with the one or the other... again... you dont have any understanding of the region....

kaysch wrote:
Klaw 2 wrote:
I think most of eastern Europe have had more than enough of Russia, they all have been occupied by it till winter 1989 there is a reason why most former Warsaw pact countries joined NATO. If you said these kind of things out loud in Poland you’d end up on the bottom of a river...

East European countries were happy to join the EU and NATO not because of Russian hegemony during the Cold War but because the West seemed more attractive economically. And if Ukraine has no perspective to join the EU their best bet will be to join Russia, de facto or better de jure.


The EU is for economic reasons yes, the nato however not. It's an Alliance they generally cost money...
Russia is a big country with a large military force, Putin has imperialistic ambitions hes grabbing lands left and right wherever he can... During this crisis the baltic states are very concerned poland too and not without reason... Like i said before they were occupied by the Russians once under Stalin no less they dont want that shit again...

kaysch wrote:
Klaw 2 wrote:
Why should we just let Putin have what he wants?

Because Ukraine will be better off as part of the Russian federation than as an semi-independent country which it is now.


Again based on what? Any sources? Rus
And how is it a semi-independant country now? They have their own president parlament etc.
Extreme-Codes
Crimea only became part of Ukraine when Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev gave the peninsula to his native land in 1954. This hardly mattered until the Soviet Union broke up in 1991 and Crimea ended up in an independent Ukraine. Despite that, nearly 60 percent of its population of 2 million identify themselves as Russians.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, there have been periodic political tussles between over its status between Moscow and Kiev.
chormar
Ukraine is in danger. Europe is silent on these atrocities in? Why not condemn Putin and his associates? This he supported the war in the east of Ukraine!
Peterssidan
chormar wrote:
Ukraine is in danger. Europe is silent on these atrocities in? Why not condemn Putin and his associates? This he supported the war in the east of Ukraine!

They are condemning it. That's why they have introduced sanctions against Russian interests. Of course it's always possible to do more, but I don't think Europe is going to be the one to step up the conflict. If Russia grab more land from Ukraine it will probably increase the sanctions but I don't think Europe/EU/Nato is willing to start a war, not even if Russia takes whole of Ukraine.
deanhills
Can't help but think of the 2008 financial crisis and how big banks had been bailed out by taxpayers. With Cyprus there was a new principal that was designed by Europe called BAIL IN. Idea being that the Bank's investors have to be forced to bail out the Bank instead of countries and Governments doing it through their tax payers.

So same with Ukraine. Instead of expecting the rest of the world to bail Ukraine out, why not do a bail-in instead. Force those with a direct investment in Ukraine to save it. Which I'm almost certain is probably going to be your wealthy oil tycoons from Russia. Appeal to them instead to put pressure on their Government to help the Ukraine?
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