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Florida/Zimmerman trial: if in doubt, shoot to kill.





handfleisch
"if in doubt, shoot to kill" is the lesson to be learned from the result of the Zimmerman trial: www.cnn.com/2013/07/13/justice/zimmerman-trial

But only if you are not black:
truespeed
Who is the black woman and what were the circumstances of the case?
deanhills
truespeed wrote:
Who is the black woman and what were the circumstances of the case?
I'm curious too.
truespeed
The problem I have with this Zimmerman case is the determination of some people to turn it into a race issue,black vs white. It is sad that in America race is still such a big issue.
coolclay
Always shoot to kill if you feel like the alternative is death to yourself, that's just common sense. The only difference in FL and a few other states is that it's legal. That being said if I was in any other state where it wasn't necessarily legal, I am still going to do what I have to do to protect life and limb.

Thanks for bringing that point up Handfliesch. Either way I am sure the jury in every case (including those mentioned) made the best possible decision based upon the evidence at hand. The public making any type of prognosis on cases is a complete effort in futility, we don't have access to most of the evidence and we tend to be strongly biased. While I occasionally loose faith in our judicial system, I force myself to not loose complete faith in the system, because if we do then we will just be a nation of vigilante's, and God knows that won't help anything.
handfleisch
coolclay wrote:
Always shoot to kill if you feel like the alternative is death to yourself, that's just common sense. The only difference in FL and a few other states is that it's legal. That being said if I was in any other state where it wasn't necessarily legal, I am still going to do what I have to do to protect life and limb.

Thanks for bringing that point up Handfliesch. Either way I am sure the jury in every case (including those mentioned) made the best possible decision based upon the evidence at hand. The public making any type of prognosis on cases is a complete effort in futility, we don't have access to most of the evidence and we tend to be strongly biased. While I occasionally loose faith in our judicial system, I force myself to not loose complete faith in the system, because if we do then we will just be a nation of vigilante's, and God knows that won't help anything.

First of all, "lose" is spelled with one "o". So with "loser" and "lose one's mind" and "lost in the wilderness." "Loose" has two, like "loose change", "loose as a goose" and "hang loose".

You might have misinterpreted my post as a celebration that Florida now encourages murder. Anyone can pursue anyone else they think looks suspicious and can kill that person at the first sign of conflict. That could be you, me, your brother or sister, your father or mother.

You're wrong that we don't have the facts; we have the exact same facts the jury had, since it was a public trial. The main thing is that the prosecution did a bad job, on purpose or not.

RIP Trayvon. Bad times in the USA. Zimmerman, karma is a bitch.
truespeed
You still haven't explained the relevance of the woman handfleisch?
handfleisch
truespeed wrote:
You still haven't explained the relevance of the woman handfleisch?

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/06/05/2108171/florida-judge-rejected-stand-your-ground-defense-for-black-woman-who-fired-warning-shot-during-domestic-violence/

Quote:
Florida Judge Rejected Stand Your Ground Defense For Black Woman Who Fired Warning Shot During Domestic Violence

In the months leading up to the trial of the Florida man who sparked national controversy over state Stand Your Ground laws when he shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, several defendants have escaped criminal liability for deadly shootings under the law. Just last week, a Florida jury acquitted a man who killed his wife’s lover in his home after firing three shots into his head and back. But just months after Trayvon’s death, Florida’s notorious Stand Your Ground law did not spare Marissa Alexander, who fired a mere warning shot into the wall during a violent incident with her husband.

Alexander was sentenced to 20 years in prison last year, after a judge rejected her Stand Your Ground defense and a jury convicted her on three counts of aggravated assault. Alexander’s husband was arrested twice before on misdemeanor battery charges against other women.
truespeed
I have read most of it,the situations are different,her life wasn't under threat,she left the house to get her gun and returned and fired a warning shot,I agree the sentencing is excessive,but I don't really see the connection between this case and the Martin/Zimmerman case,if Zimmerman is to be believed,his life was under threat,did he shoot to kill on purpose? I don't know,could he of wounded instead,again,I don't know.

I think people need to take the black.white issue out of this case and judge it on its own merits,which I assume the jury did,and he walked.
coolclay
Thanks for correcting my misspelling, my apologies for lack of proofreading, but you don't have to be a D about it. This is a forum and I can't say I spend a lot of time proofreading, now the magazine and journal article I am currently writing that's a different story.

The law hasn't changed any, it was a stupid law before, and is a stupid law still. Don't blame the people blame the game!

Maybe the prosecution would have done a better job, had he actually done something ILLEGAL! But as you said yourself as long as you're able to provide evidence of self defense, yes murder is now legal in FL.

In addition to the rest of the states where murdering children is also legal, the states where you can be killed by your own state (death penalty), those states with assisted suicide laws, and of course those other 33 states that have castle doctrine and stand your ground laws similar to FL. Oh and we can't forget about the state sponsored murder of thousands of innocent lives for the sake of killing a few pesky terrorists, some of those innocents even being US citizens.

So what exactly is your point?

I say kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. We have a severely overpopulated planet and courtesy of modern medicine, fertility treatments, factory farming, and all other methods of unsustainable growth the only solution I see in the near future is war and murder.

And in case you were wondering Garrett Hardin happens to be a hero of mine. He like me, got lambasted from both sides of the political isle, because unlike the majority of the sheep of America we can think independently and objectively.
deanhills
truespeed wrote:
I think people need to take the black.white issue out of this case and judge it on its own merits,which I assume the jury did,and he walked.
Totally agreed with what you say. Although I don't really believe in justice for all. Regardless of race, I think a person with lots of money is able to afford better legal representation. At the end of the day none of us are equal before the law. One judge may be more liberal or harsh than the other. Or we may have a lousy lawyer representing us, or just a really excellent lawyer getting his/her client off to our disadvantage, even when they are guilty.
handfleisch
coolclay wrote:
Thanks for correcting my misspelling, my apologies for lack of proofreading, but you don't have to be a D about it. This is a forum and I can't say I spend a lot of time proofreading, now the magazine and journal article I am currently writing that's a different story.

The law hasn't changed any, it was a stupid law before, and is a stupid law still. Don't blame the people blame the game!

Maybe the prosecution would have done a better job, had he actually done something ILLEGAL! But as you said yourself as long as you're able to provide evidence of self defense, yes murder is now legal in FL.

In addition to the rest of the states where murdering children is also legal, the states where you can be killed by your own state (death penalty), those states with assisted suicide laws, and of course those other 33 states that have castle doctrine and stand your ground laws similar to FL. Oh and we can't forget about the state sponsored murder of thousands of innocent lives for the sake of killing a few pesky terrorists, some of those innocents even being US citizens.

So what exactly is your point?

I say kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. We have a severely overpopulated planet and courtesy of modern medicine, fertility treatments, factory farming, and all other methods of unsustainable growth the only solution I see in the near future is war and murder.

And in case you were wondering Garrett Hardin happens to be a hero of mine. He like me, got lambasted from both sides of the political isle, because unlike the majority of the sheep of America we can think independently and objectively.


So you're an advocate of scientific racism, and that's exactly what internet forums are for--to let bizarre extremists vent and rave. Hardin pretended to be motivated by science, but it wasn't just a coincidence that all the things he was obsessed by involved his resentments about people who aren't white, like affirmative action, overpopulation in Africa, and racial aspects of test scores. People use Hardin as a fig leaf to cover their rawer issues of racial resentment, misanthropy and anger.

Your vision of society is a dystopia that sane people reject, and you might feel differently if it was someone in your family getting legally murdered for walking down the street.
gospellife
It's clear that this self defense law is flawed. How often can someone struggle, kill and walk away innocent. Hopefully no more, but don't hold your breath. It seems from the evidence that Martin was a kid capable of violence and something happened before Zimmerman pulled the trigger. But, Zimmerman should have prision time for aggravating a situation that would not have occurred other wise. Not to do so kind of says, Martin got what he deserved for looking like a thug, even though there more to it than that.

Jeff
RoylanM
Regarding to the first post of this topic, Zimmerman was being assaulted viciously so he had a right to self defense with the gun. I don't think frihost is a place for pettition.
coolclay
Quote:
So you're an advocate of scientific racism,


I think your getting a little off topic there handfleisch. Call me what you will but I guess that makes David Attenborough a scientific racist too http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/23/sir-david-attenborough-na_n_2534078.html

Regardless my point was that it's legal to kill people in many different ways shapes and forms according to different state laws, as well as federal laws. So why the big upset, it's nothing new, we as a country, and as individual states have the right to decide what makes killing someone legal or not, welcome to America, love it or hate it that's the way it is.

Quote:
you might feel differently it was someone in your family getting legally murdered for walking down the street.


Yes, of course I would feel differently regardless of whether my family member was innocent or not, was on death row, or in any other situation where the killing was "legal".
handfleisch
coolclay wrote:
Quote:
So you're an advocate of scientific racism,


I think your getting a little off topic there handfleisch.

You brought up your hero, who is a leading scientific racist. If you are one too, why don't you just say so.

coolclay wrote:
Regardless my point was that it's legal to kill people in many different ways shapes and forms according to different state laws, as well as federal laws. So why the big upset, it's nothing new, we as a country, and as individual states have the right to decide what makes killing someone legal or not, welcome to America, love it or hate it that's the way it is.


Yes it is something new. The increase in Stand Your Ground laws is new, and pushes this country in the direction of dystopia. The basic definition of civilization is the ability to go about your business without being killed or brutalized. When a society starts to increase the ways that people can be legally killed or brutalized, it goes down a road away from basic civilization. In the USA, we are slowly increasing all the ways that someone can be killed or brutalized, whether it be by the militarized police using SWAT methods for minor offenses or by the increase in Stand Your Ground laws, which necessarily means the last person standing is the winner (especially if the power structure is biased in favor of that person for some reason, be it race, class, nepotism, etc.)

Again, I have a feeling that if someone in your family were shot dead after being followed and confronted while walking down the street, unarmed, doing nothing wrong, and the so-called justice system decided it was fine and proper for your family member to be followed, confronted and shot while doing nothing wrong, you might feel that something was seriously messed up with this system. Do you have brothers or sisters or parents or a boyfriend/girlfriend or husband or wife? Try imagining them in this scenario.
Afaceinthematrix
I obviously don't have all of the evidence to this case but when I was in the States I was following it and it did seem, to me, that it should have been murder. I obviously do not know everything because I wasn't in the court room but it seems that it should have been murder.

At any rate, one little thing that I'd like to point out is people keep saying things like "Florida encourages murder." Murder, by definition, is unlawful killing. The court decided that this was lawful killing ergo it isn't murder. It may have been completely immoral but, by definition, it was wasn't murder.
handfleisch
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
I obviously don't have all of the evidence to this case but when I was in the States I was following it and it did seem, to me, that it should have been murder. I obviously do not know everything because I wasn't in the court room but it seems that it should have been murder.


That's right. As the USA takes more steps in the direction of right wing hell. Check this positive story out:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/15/justice/pennsylvania-teen-heroes/?iref=obnetwork

But think--if these two African American hero-kids had been riding their bikes at night in Florida while searching for the kidnapped girl, any one-man "neighborhood watch" psycho like Zimmerman could shoot them dead and make up any story and get away with it. SICK times in the USA.
donfilipo
coolclay wrote:


I say kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. We have a severely overpopulated planet and courtesy of modern medicine, fertility treatments, factory farming, and all other methods of unsustainable growth the only solution I see in the near future is war and murder.

And in case you were wondering Garrett Hardin happens to be a hero of mine. He like me, got lambasted from both sides of the political isle, because unlike the majority of the sheep of America we can think independently and objectively.




Laughing

So it wouldn't matter to you if somebody would install a modern bomb in your neighborhood, so the overpopulation would decline a bit? Bit by bit Very Happy

And yes Garret Hardin surely helps if you construct bombs. I mean spiritually. Except himself having 4 children did not seem to take his own science in regard? Very Happy
Afaceinthematrix
I don't think that even the most racist person would deny that there are a few good black people out there every now and then. Of course, those of us that aren't racist douchebags realize that there are good and bad people of every race and I would never even think of giving the race in a news article because it's completely irrelevant (unless you're trying to describe a wanted suspect or wanted fugitive).
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