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Venezuela's Hugo Chavez dead at 58





Vanilla
Quote:
Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez has died, his vice-president has announced.

Mr Chavez had not appeared in public since he returned to Venezuela last month after cancer treatment in Cuba.

An emotional Nicolas Maduro made the announcement on Tuesday evening, flanked by leading Venezuelan political and military leaders.

Earlier, he said the 58-year-old Venezuelan leader had a new, severe respiratory infection and had entered "his most difficult hours".

Source: BBC Latin America


The dead of Hugo Chavez was finally announced. I believed him to be dead since December.
badai
December? it's March now. Why would they keep the body that long?
deanhills
They said on the news over here he had died yesterday morning at 5:00 a.m. I'm almost certain you're right however Vanilla. He passed on ages ago and so they waited all this time until they could figure out their strategy for replacing him. Now's probably not a good time to be in Venezuela.
Vanilla
badai wrote:
December? it's March now. Why would they keep the body that long?


Hugo Chávez simply disappeared for months. The only people telling that he was still alive was his Cuban doctors and his vice president Nicolás Maduro. No public appearances, just strange "official" photos released last month (that could have been taken months ago). People here in Brazil believed that it was just a matter of time for the announcement of his dead. I pretty much believe that everyone that was following the news about Venezuela's future believed the same.

I'll go with Dean and say that they were just looking for some way to make the transition and continue Chávez government style without Chávez. I can say that I'm relieved, but not much. South America in general has a pretty recent historic of dictatorship, this includes Brazil. I was born into a country where we couldn't vote and we had to deal with censorship. Tis sad to see this happening with our neighbors. I really hope things end well in Venezuela.
RosenCruz
I m so sad. He was a different, inordinary, funny personality. I will miss him and politicians like him on world politics. Hope his country will do better after him
handfleisch
Seems like no news can be announced these days without a conspiracy theory questioning the basic facts of it.
bukaida
His speeches were nice & funny to hear. Especially the language he used to curse America & it's president. However let us hope the new president will be leading the country in proper direction. He was a true compatriot and friend of Castro.
deanhills
South America is definitely in the news lately, including origin of the new Pope from Argentina. It must have a huge collection of people with charismatic characters and leadership abilities that include paternatlistic type attributes. Like while I was in Ecuador and on the road on a Saturday morning, the driver was listening to his usual Saturday morning show, which was the President Rafael Correa lecturing people how to behave properly, preaching against corruption etc. He was preaching for hours. Had a great voice. People love that. Would probably be an interesting study to see whether that fits in with the majority catholic religion as well, i.e. 90% plus people in South America have catholic as their religion, and through the religion may be susceptible to loving paternalistic leaders. Not sure. Sounded good to me though. Nice to see patriots loving their leader so much.

Rafael Correa looks very healthy though compared with Pope Francis:


crazyfffan
RosenCruz wrote:
I m so sad. He was a different, inordinary, funny personality. I will miss him and politicians like him on world politics. Hope his country will do better after him


Are you serious? All what he did was to play the demagoguery game, placing himself above the country, violently abusing opponents and alleging the USA for everything, try to rewrite the constitution so he could be in power for the rest of his life. He's crazy and I really happy to see him dead.
ibraltan1
Apart from Chaves, the correctness of our judges about development in another country depends on the reliability of news agencies that inform us. Nevertheless each news agency has its owner's political ideas. Each one tries to direct millions of people to think the way that they want. It can be said that it is an inevitable situation. What is more important is the following question: Is there enough amount of "independent" news agency that would enable us to see different aspects of the same news? Can we assume that competition among those agencies could provide us with news that is not a lie? Sometimes we must ask a question to us: Is this my idea or am I a parrot that unconsciously repeats the product of a systematic propaganda (persuasive communication). I accept that this paranoid-like approach is something disturbing. However, in order to wake and see some realities we must question some “well-established ideas”. Otherwise, someone can find himself or herself supporting ideas that against his or her benefit. (Not only ridiculous but also pathetic)
Vanilla
ibraltan1 wrote:
Apart from Chaves, the correctness of our judges about development in another country depends on the reliability of news agencies that inform us. Nevertheless each news agency has its owner's political ideas. Each one tries to direct millions of people to think the way that they want. It can be said that it is an inevitable situation. What is more important is the following question: Is there enough amount of "independent" news agency that would enable us to see different aspects of the same news? Can we assume that competition among those agencies could provide us with news that is not a lie? Sometimes we must ask a question to us: Is this my idea or am I a parrot that unconsciously repeats the product of a systematic propaganda (persuasive communication). I accept that this paranoid-like approach is something disturbing. However, in order to wake and see some realities we must question some “well-established ideas”. Otherwise, someone can find himself or herself supporting ideas that against his or her benefit. (Not only ridiculous but also pathetic)


That's a beautiful speech, but I failed to see your point. Are you saying that Chávez being a manipulative dictator is a lie perpetrated by the media?
ibraltan1
Dear Vanilla,
My point is neither being a supporter of Hugo Chávez nor being an opponent of him. I must know that neither I have to worship nor damn on him. I am on the side of independent thinking. As you well know, in real world, the white is no so pure white; the black is not such a perfect color. Widespread gray is forced to be understood as white or black depending upon the people who manage our perception through news agencies. As for Hugo Chávez, he took place in the history that would judge about him. Question is this: Does the quality of elections in Venezuela meet the minimum acceptable level of contemporary standards? If yes and if someone wins elections and gets approval of his people a few times, does not he deserve respect? Of course this doesn’t mean that he didn’t make any serious mistake. What is necessary for me is to filter the repeated words of news agencies through reasoning.
Best regards.
Vanilla
ibraltan1 wrote:
Dear Vanilla,
My point is neither being a supporter of Hugo Chávez nor being an opponent of him. I must know that neither I have to worship nor damn on him. I am on the side of independent thinking. As you well know, in real world, the white is no so pure white; the black is not such a perfect color. Widespread gray is forced to be understood as white or black depending upon the people who manage our perception through news agencies.


Yes, I think I got what you're trying to say and please, feel free to open a new topic so we can talk about how media agencies manipulate news so they can fit someone's agenda.

ibraltan1 wrote:
As for Hugo Chávez, he took place in the history that would judge about him. Question is this: Does the quality of elections in Venezuela meet the minimum acceptable level of contemporary standards? If yes and if someone wins elections and gets approval of his people a few times, does not he deserve respect? Of course this doesn’t mean that he didn’t make any serious mistake. What is necessary for me is to filter the repeated words of news agencies through reasoning.
Best regards.


See, that's why I love reading independent blogs. Every aspect about Chávez was beautifully manipulated by Venezuelan agencies. Oh, let me add that if an agency wanted to keep business up, it should does as the government told it. What you were talking about again? Oh yes, how you need to filter what you hear. You see, I live in Latin America and I'm pretty tired of populists dictators. I'm tired of guys like Hugo Chávez, Evo Morales, Lula (our former president), Fidel Castro complaining about how evil capitalism is and denying that, in fact, they are the ones responsible for their countries' misery.

Let's talk about last election in Venezuela, the one that happened after Hugo Chávez's death. Did you see all the men and the women protesting in the streets because almost everyone believed that that election was a fraud? My brother and me were accompanying the election results in the official site (the one maintained by the government) and Henrique Capriles was leading most of the time. Then a mysterious black out hit Caracas. Then Nicolás Maduro was elected with 50.6% of the votes.

Did I mention that Maduro came out as a winner comfortably in all polls conducted before the election? See, that's manipulation right there. Then when the votes were computed, surprise! Capriles was leading, then the mysterious black out occurred then Maduro was the new president. That's why lots of students hit the streets and the protests began.

Living in a country so deeply affected by a brutal dictatorship has made me a very suspicious person. I don't accept things right away and I tend to research a lot before I can talk about something. In my school I was taught about how evil capitalism is and how we should hate countries like USA. Seriously. Fidel Castro was painted like a hero and if I was a passive little girl, I would totally buy it. But I'm not. Latin America is still plagued by this buffoons, so attached to their (supposedly) glorious past and so quick to blame their problems on others...

That said, feel free to visit Latin America so you can see for yourself how miserable these countries are. And how their "beloved leaders" wrecked their countries.
ibraltan1
Dear Vanilla,
If all the elections in Venezuela were theater presentations, there is no point for anybody to defend current situation. If the government that has the power to govern without consent of those being governed, it is named as a dictatorship.

You may be right that for a country, to be in wrecked situation could be clear and strong evidence that there is no democracy there. But, are you sure %100. The development of democratic culture is a process in which society and leaders mature as time elapses. That is, in a constitutional democracy that has institutions, people can elect wrong leaders. Those leaders can manage the country badly (within the limits of the constitution, controlled by independent judiciary). In the mean term, wrong decisions or applications of the political party or the leader could be protested through different legal methods. But the change must be come with the next election which ends political life of wrong-doers.

Even in the most advanced democracies, the parties that lost the elections claim the unfairness of the ballot. Defeat rarely admitted because of political targets. Besides this, there is an inherent problem related with debate on politics. People always tend to use their feelings (anger, disappointment etc. leading) instead of cool-headed ideas based on objective facts, especially if the defeat comes with a few votes. (Nicolas Maduro: 7.505.338 votes (50.66%), Henrique Capriles: 7.271.403 (49.07%))

I accept that since you are more close to the Venezuela, you have more potential of knowing the facts. As you clearly saw the direct relations of perception of people about a political leader with the efforts of media agencies within the context of Venezuelan agencies, we cannot behave as if they have nothing to do with the subject. I think, in the rest of the World Venezuelan state agencies has a power one in a thousand as compared with the some other media agencies. So what we face is propaganda of ideas of the opposite side.

There are some websites suggesting that the elections were fair. For example:
http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/8940
http://truth-out.org/news/item/12074-independent-observers-venezuelas-election-a-model-of-democracy
and many others exist although I do not guarantee their neutrality.

I will appreciate if you provide some reliable source of information till I am able to visit these countries.

Best regards.
Vanilla
ibraltan1 wrote:
Dear Vanilla,
If all the elections in Venezuela were theater presentations, there is no point for anybody to defend current situation. If the government that has the power to govern without consent of those being governed, it is named as a dictatorship.


That's why I believe too. And I believe that this is happening not only in Venezuela, but in other Latin American countries right now.

ibraltan1 wrote:
You may be right that for a country, to be in wrecked situation could be clear and strong evidence that there is no democracy there. But, are you sure %100. The development of democratic culture is a process in which society and leaders mature as time elapses. That is, in a constitutional democracy that has institutions, people can elect wrong leaders. Those leaders can manage the country badly (within the limits of the constitution, controlled by independent judiciary). In the mean term, wrong decisions or applications of the political party or the leader could be protested through different legal methods. But the change must be come with the next election which ends political life of wrong-doers.


And you are right. But what happened was pretty different. Venezuelans were heavily bombarded with propaganda Chavista before the elections. Chavez speeches were transmitted all the time during his last election, they even interrupted Capriles time on TV. The private owned channels used to criticize Chávez heavily, but mysteriously they stopped it. It's no surprise that the government was trying to shutdown the private media agencies (this includes the Catholic Channel). The interesting part is that all private owned media in Venezuela doesn't have good things to say about Chávez or the actual president, Maduro.

ibraltan1 wrote:
Even in the most advanced democracies, the parties that lost the elections claim the unfairness of the ballot. Defeat rarely admitted because of political targets. Besides this, there is an inherent problem related with debate on politics. People always tend to use their feelings (anger, disappointment etc. leading) instead of cool-headed ideas based on objective facts, especially if the defeat comes with a few votes. (Nicolas Maduro: 7.505.338 votes (50.66%), Henrique Capriles: 7.271.403 (49.07%))


Some links about last election:

Desconfianza sobre autonomía del Consejo Electoral de Venezuela
Venezuela en la deriva autoritaria
Cacería de brujas se está dando en Venezuela
Venezuela: nueva polémica electoral

I don't know if you can read Spanish, but these links talk about how the Venezuelan people didn't believe in the impartiality of the Venezuelan Electoral Council and how the new government is persecuting members of parties that don't support Maduro. Also, according to Maduro himself, they have identified those who didn't vote for him. Well, isn't the vote secret? Not in Venezuela, according to the president himself.

Maduro vuelve a arremeter contra medios independientes

This is about how the private owned media is not reproducing the values that the government expect them to transmit. So they want to change it, so it can be more like "the Bolivarian ideal" that they aim so much.

ibraltan1 wrote:
I accept that since you are more close to the Venezuela, you have more potential of knowing the facts. As you clearly saw the direct relations of perception of people about a political leader with the efforts of media agencies within the context of Venezuelan agencies, we cannot behave as if they have nothing to do with the subject. I think, in the rest of the World Venezuelan state agencies has a power one in a thousand as compared with the some other media agencies. So what we face is propaganda of ideas of the opposite side.

There are some websites suggesting that the elections were fair. For example:
http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/8940
http://truth-out.org/news/item/12074-independent-observers-venezuelas-election-a-model-of-democracy
and many others exist although I do not guarantee their neutrality.

I will appreciate if you provide some reliable source of information till I am able to visit these countries.

Best regards.


I'm short on time today, but I'll gladly read your links when I come home today. Smile
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