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The other side of the Syrian Crises, which US leaders ignore





mqmpakistani
Firstly, some basic things.

1. Humanity is the biggest religion.

2. Assad regime was a dictator regime, it killed it's opponents, human rights were violated in Syria. Thus present regime or system should be changed.


But some hard facts, which are being neglected. Humanity could not win in proper way if we ignore these facts. You have full right to disagree with me on these issues, but my duty is to bring you the opinion of the other side too, which exists in the liberal secular community of my region:


1. Assad regime has still the support of Majority of people of Syria.

Strange, but this is the truth which is not told to us normally by our Media. Here you could read more:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/syrians-support-assad-western-propaganda


2. In case of General Elections, the opposition has absolutely no chance of winning the election. The opposition is divided in tens of groups. Some major groups are Free Syrian Army, Nationalist group and the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafies etc.
We already saw that Saudia, Qatar, Turkey and US tried their best to bring these many groups under one umbrella, but practically it is a difficult task.


3. I don't know if you know it or not, but another harsh fact is this that:
The opposition, Saudia, Qatar and US.... they all are strongly against the Reforms in Syria.... they all are against the General Elections in Syria .... they all are against solving this problem on the negotiation table.
(Reason is obvious that at moment opposition has no chance to beat Basharat-ul-Assad in the general Elections, while they are totally divided).

Therefore, this has become very serious question for the secular community of this region. They are asking if US want to change the Regime or to change the System.


4. Assad do have strong support from the Syrian population.
You could imagine it while we see that US has unlimited access to technology and every thing in Afghanistan, but still it is difficult to control Taliban.
On the other side, Syrian Regime is not actively supported by any other country (except a little from Iran), but the rebels have full support coming from many many Salafi Islamic countries (Libya, Saudia, Qatar, Maracco, Tunis, Indonesia, Pakistan, Chechen, UAE, Iraq etc.). But still they are not able to defeat the regime.
If there was really no support of Assad in the population, then he got no chance of surviving against this attack for such a long time.


5. Rebels are mostly belonging to Salafi al-Qaida at moment. If Regime was tyrant, then these al-Qaida Salafist are 100s of times more tyrant against the Population. There are 100s of Videos of their tyranny, but I hope you people already know it.

If these al-Qaida rebels wins, do you really believe it will be a win for Humanity?

Do you remember when Taliban won in Afghanistan with the support of these same Salafists? Do you remember when Taliban slaughtered many many thousands of Shia in Mazar Sharif after they won the city.
What US leaders did against this Massacre of thousands of Shia civilians by Taliban? Absolutely Nothing.

Do you believe that Salafists in Syria are going to spare the Alavies and Shia and Christians and all minorities who are supporting Assad. Remember, there are already Fatwas (decree) from the Salafi Ulama (so called Scholars) that it has become obligatory to slaughter all the minorities after gaining power. They take their lesson from one Historical incident when Muslims in Era of Muhammad beheaded all the Jews of one area after overcoming them. These Salafies are totally blind people, and I could assure you that they believe in it 100% with closed eyes.


6. The worst part is this that even if Assad falls, but still these Salafies are going to fight the West one day (sooner or later).
You see, the CIA created the Taliban. But then a day came where US has itself to fight against it's own creation i.e. Taliban.

We could say it with 100% surety, same thing will repeat in Syria (sooner or later).


7. The secular community of my region want a change of System in Syria, but not necessarily the change of regime. Even if there is a regime change, then the people of Syria should get the chance to decide it. They may bring some other liberal and secular person instead of Assad.
But in the present situation, if Assad falls, then only Salafists will come to the power, and there will be a massacre, and the loss of humanity.



At the end, a short documentary by CNN


zaxacongrejo
Assad is doomed its a question of time now
deanhills
I don't know where you get your information from, but I have a large number of Syrian friends here in the UAE, some of whom have lost their homes in Syria. They have first hand information about what is going on in Syria, and it completely refutes every thing you said about the support for Assad.

It is absolute common sense that Saudi Arabia would be against any reforms in any of the countries in the Middle East. Almost all of the countries have dictatorships and like it to stay that way as much as they can. Some of the "dictatorships" are more paternalistic in nature where they do everything they can to keep their population happy as they know that is the best way to stay in power. Saudi is not counted among them. Saudi does have a large influence with other countries in the Middle East as it is the wealthiest of them all. For example, much of the revival in Dubai after it almost went bankrupt at the end of 2008 is as a result of Saudis and Iranians investing heavily in Dubai properties. Also, after the upheaval in Bahrain, Saudis are now visiting Dubai instead of Bahrain, bringing in billions of dollars of direct and indirect investment. Imagine the losses in Bahrain!

The style of Government in the Middle East as well as culture is totally different to that of the West. Countries in the Middle East are mostly supportive of one another. So for the US to interfere with any one of those countries, it would be losing the support of the other countries in the Middle East by default. The US has done everything it possibly could and invested heavily in building friendships with countries in the Gulf Area, particularly in light of the positioning of China and Russia with Iran and a threatening nuclear capability in Iran, and would always consult with those countries first before it chooses any direction of action in their neighbourhood. I'd say that would make great practical sense as well.

In addition in a global sense, the US is pitched against China and Russia with regard to China and Russia opposing any intervention in Syria. It could easily turn into a World War III situation if the US should just charge into Syria without having Russia and China's support as well. Turkey is of course at a huge disadvantage as well as it has had to support thousands of refugees fleeing Syria. Have those been counted in your statistics for support of Assad? Where did you get your statistics from?
mqmpakistani
zaxacongrejo wrote:
Assad is doomed its a question of time now


No sympathy for Assad Regime.

But if it happens, then I will be very sorry for the minorities and the secular people of Syria, while they will be slaughtered left and right. Actually they are slaughtered at moment too, but very little is coming in the Media at moment (unfortunately). I wished they have showed the true face of the Salafi opposition too.

Also, drama will not end with the end of Assad. But it will start from there. The hate that I have seem among the Salafies against the West is really extreme. I wish no repetition of Taliban Drama, which brought only destruction to all sides, be it Afghans, Pakistanies, Iran, Taliban or even the US itself.
deanhills
mqmpakistani wrote:
But if it happens, then I will be very sorry for the minorities and the secular people of Syria, while they will be slaughtered left and right. Actually they are slaughtered at moment too, but very little is coming in the Media at moment (unfortunately). I wished they have showed the true face of the Salafi opposition too.

Also, drama will not end with the end of Assad. But it will start from there. The hate that I have seem among the Salafies against the West is really extreme. I wish no repetition of Taliban Drama, which brought only destruction to all sides, be it Afghans, Pakistanies, Iran, Taliban or even the US itself.
You make pretty strong statements without any corroborating evidence.

Agreed drama will not end with the end of Assad. Egypt is a very good example of that. There would be an enormous vacuum of power that would need to stabilize itself in the face of overall lack of confidence in power. Any one filling that power would be suspect. As to the "slaughter" of other groups in Syria, and in absence of evidence from you, I can only see that coming from supporters of Assad. Either directly or indirectly.
mqmpakistani
deanhills wrote:
I don't know where you get your information from, but I have a large number of Syrian friends here in the UAE, some of whom have lost their homes in Syria. They have first hand information about what is going on in Syria, and it completely refutes every thing you said about the support for Assad.

It is absolute common sense that Saudi Arabia would be against any reforms in any of the countries in the Middle East. Almost all of the countries have dictatorships and like it to stay that way as much as they can. Some of the "dictatorships" are more paternalistic in nature where they do everything they can to keep their population happy as they know that is the best way to stay in power. Saudi is not counted among them. Saudi does have a large influence with other countries in the Middle East as it is the wealthiest of them all. For example, much of the revival in Dubai after it almost went bankrupt at the end of 2008 is as a result of Saudis and Iranians investing heavily in Dubai properties. Also, after the upheaval in Bahrain, Saudis are now visiting Dubai instead of Bahrain, bringing in billions of dollars of direct and indirect investment. Imagine the losses in Bahrain!

The style of Government in the Middle East as well as culture is totally different to that of the West. Countries in the Middle East are mostly supportive of one another. So for the US to interfere with any one of those countries, it would be losing the support of the other countries in the Middle East by default. The US has done everything it possibly could and invested heavily in building friendships with countries in the Gulf Area, particularly in light of the positioning of China and Russia with Iran and a threatening nuclear capability in Iran, and would always consult with those countries first before it chooses any direction of action in their neighbourhood. I'd say that would make great practical sense as well.

In addition in a global sense, the US is pitched against China and Russia with regard to China and Russia opposing any intervention in Syria. It could easily turn into a World War III situation if the US should just charge into Syria without having Russia and China's support as well. Turkey is of course at a huge disadvantage as well as it has had to support thousands of refugees fleeing Syria. Have those been counted in your statistics for support of Assad? Where did you get your statistics from?



Thank you deanhills.

You said you got your information from your friends in ME. While I have not only friends, but my own family members returning from Syria. But I believe that both of us, and our friends have no value to be presented as an evidence.

Please ask your friends to refute the following proofs.


1. I gave you the link of an article by Guardian newspaper.
[img]http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/syrians-support-assad-western-propaganda [/img]
There are polls done in Syria, and this Poll is from Qatar own Institute, who contacted thousands of people from Syria, and from all over the country.

Now question is, what value do your friends or my relatives have in front of these Polls?



2. The Pro Assad Rallies were absolutely massive, but unfortunately not shown on the Media



Even in the cities, which are considered strongholds of opposition, the pro Assad rallies were much much bigger.

Here is Allepo, the stronghold of rebels, but watch how over million people came out to support Assad



Opposition was unable to bring even 20th part of such crowd.




3. Ask your friends, why it were the Rebels who demanded that that delegation of ARAB Observers should leave the Syria?
This was very very important question, but totally blacked out in the Media.
You will see none of your friend in ME will answer it to you, but will try their best to turn the topic.


4. I also suggested above to think logically.
Have we not seen how difficult was for Qatar, Saudia, Turkey and US to bring all these opposition groups on one table. Here are the 4 groups of rebels:

a) Secular Nationalists who support foreign interference
b) Secular Nationalists who oppose the role of Qatar, Saudia and US.
c) Free Syrian Army
d) Salafist Groups


Do you think this divided opposition has any chance against Assad in the Elections?

This is not a rocket science why US leader, Saudia and Qatar and Turkey and the rebels are against the reforms and resolving this crises through ballot box under the supervision of UNO. The rebels (with blessing of their supportive foreign countries) right from the beginning are not interested in any negotiations or peaceful solution as have been suggested by the UNO. But they are only interested in the fight.
Right from the beginning these rebels were against the delegation of Arab Observers and wanted them to leave the country.

I don't know what substantial proofs do one need more to see this fact that rebels could not beat the Assad Regime through ballot box, and therefore they continue the fighting.

You could also see the biased role of Media, where they are unilaterally condemning the Assad Regime, who is even ready for all types of reforms and Elections, but on other hand, this same Media is silent upon the Bahrain Issue where Khalifa Family has showed absolutely no intention about Elections or any other reforms.


5) And last question you should ask yourself and you will get the answer.
How come Assad Regime has still not fallen?

You see US got all the weapons and technology and support of Saudia and Pakistan and Jordan and and Kuwait and all neighboring countries, but still it was not possible for US to keep control upon Iraq and Afghanistan.

Syria don't have any active support or active supply of weapons (except for Iran which is able to give limited help in black due to the Sanctions).

And Mujahideen are coming to Syria from over 40 countries, including Libya, Morocco, Tunisian, Iraq, Saudia, UAE, Pakistan, Chechnya etc.

Qatar and Saudia are spending billions of dollars (It is open support, while in case of US vs al-qaida/Taliban, then al-qaida/taliban were getting no such billions of dollars aid.

Syrian regime is in fact under sanctions.

So, it is really a wonder that Syrian Regime has not yet ended. And it had never been possible if Assad had not got the roots among the Syrian population.

I am of this opinion that it is still possible the sooner or later Assad Regime falls, while there is constant supply of Mujahideen from all over the world, trained in Turkey, and also flow of billions of dollars.

But I am more concerned about the minorities if the Assad Regime falls.



6) You asked me about the substantial proofs about the fears that one has about the minorities in post Assad Syria.

Have you seen the Videos of Salafi Scholars, giving this FATWA (Religion Decree) that all minorities of Syria should be killed while they supported Assad Regime? Please tell me and I will show you the videos of these Salafi Mullahs if you have not yet seen them.


I live in Pakistan, and in Pakistan we have a Secular Government, but still thousands of minorities (especially Shias and Sufies and Ahmadies) have been killed every year by the Salafists in attacks which are made every day against them, but never get published in the Western Media.

These minorities are already leading a life of fear in Pakistan.

But the situation in Syria is many times worst than Pakistan and there is an open war.

I already gave you the true facts about the Taliban and Afghanistan. When Taliban captured Mazar Sharif, didn't they slaughter thousands of Shia minority people? I just hope you know about this massacre. And don't you see that Absolutely nothing was done by the US leaders against Taliban at that time while they wanted to use Taliban against Iran.

Hell, have you forgotten the Halabcha massacre, where Saddam Hussain killed 5 thousand of Kurds in one night with the chemical weapons.... but there was not a single report about this in the western media for many years. Reason was simple that Saddam Hussain was an ally at that time.


I don't want to criticize the US leaders or the Media much. I do have complaints against them, but let my personal complaints should not play a role when we try to understand and decide for the Syrian Case.


Video, where one Salafi Mullah openly saying to slaughter the minorities

fouadCh
mqmpakistani wrote:

(....................................)
Video, where one Salafi Mullah openly saying to slaughter the minorities
(....................................)

Sorry, but that's not What I understood from the video you posted... The gentleman there didn't say that at all.. he is, in fact, threatening all collaborators with the current regime from whatever ethnic group they may be.. and, we know, that's kind of "normal" when we are in a weakest position..

PS :
I don't want to be involved in this conversation at all (I know the Arab World too well.. to be of any sympathies with any current regime.. and just hope that any power transition occurs with minimal damage to the population as a whole.. and, of course, I'm really appalled at what's going on in Syria.. ).. and, of course, didn't read the whole thread's posts (don't like posts that are too long).. just liked to check the accuracy of the quote above..
mqmpakistani
fouadCh wrote:
mqmpakistani wrote:

(....................................)
Video, where one Salafi Mullah openly saying to slaughter the minorities
(....................................)

Sorry, but that's not What I understood from the video you posted... The gentleman there didn't say that at all.. he is, in fact, threatening all collaborators with the current regime from whatever ethnic group they may be.. and, we know, that's kind of "normal" when we are in a weakest position..

PS :
I don't want to be involved in this conversation at all (I know the Arab World too well.. to be of any sympathies with any current regime.. and just hope that any power transition occurs with minimal damage to the population as a whole.. and, of course, I'm really appalled at what's going on in Syria.. ).. and, of course, didn't read the whole thread's posts (don't like posts that are too long).. just liked to check the accuracy of the quote above..


I just hope you don't believe it is the only video and the only Salafi Alim threatening the minorities.

Please keep you eyes open, although no voice is made in the Media, but let assure yourself that Salafies are no way going to leave the minorities without slaughtering, no way they are going to leave the West to live in peace.

Please read only this small example:


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/opinion/syrias-threatened-christians.html?_r=0

.... This March, months before the Qusayr ultimatum, Islamist militants from the opposition’s Faruq Brigade had gone door to door in Hamidiya and Bustan al-Diwan neighborhoods of Homs, expelling local Christians. Following the raids, some 90 percent of Christians reportedly fled the city for government-controlled areas, neighboring countries or a stretch of land near the Lebanese border called the Valley of Christians (Wadi al-Nasarah). Of the more than 80,000 Christians who lived in Homs prior to the uprising, approximately 400 remain today.....



Do you remember what Taliban did after coming to the power?

One steps from Taliban was this that they ordered the remaining Hindus in Afghanistan that they were not allowed to wear clothes like Muslims, but they should wear only dark Yellow clothes, so that they could be recognized and humiliated.

Another step was to destroy the places of worship in name of Tauheed. Remember the Budha statues?

Both these things have strong place in the Salafi Religion when 2nd Caliph Umar al-Khattab did the same thing against the Christians of his time (i.e. they were ordered to wear only one special kind of clothes, they were not allowed to use settle for their horses or donkeys, they had to shave their foreheads so that they could be recognized and humiliated)....

And for Salafies, it is obligatory to follow upon the Sunnah (i.e. practice) of 2nd Caliph.

At moment Salafies & Muslim Brotherhood are not in absolute power in the Arab countries. A large population of Muslims is still secular enough to resist this degrading of humanity. But you must know once these Salafies get enough power, then what is the fate of the minorities in this region.

You may think I am exaggerating.

May be, but you must be assure that I know the Salafi doctrine much better than you people, as I have studied their doctrine in depth, spent time with them, read a lot of books.
mqmpakistani
What happened after Assad delivered his speech????




Off course, they are the supporters of Assad and they will do it.

But lesson for non aligned people is this to not to turn blind eyes from the other side of the story.

There are many many liberals who are against dictatorship, but now the world has left only 2 options for them.

First is to support the Salafi Wahabies led rebellion.

And second is to support the Assad Regime.


What do you think where the Liberal forces of Syria will be standing in this situation? The US leaders may criticize us for supporting the dictatorship, but still we are firm on our stand and believe it to be the only right decision at this moment.

For sure, the change should come and the Regime must go. But it should happen peacefully through the ballot box, and not through the Salafi led armed blood thirsty opposition.


PS: Assad's father was a dictator, but Basarat-ul-Assad is very educated person, with very democratic, liberal and secular views. From no where he seems to be a dictator.


Ok, I have also found the full speech of Assad in English. I have not seen it yet, or don't have time or will to see the full speech. But if some one likes, then here it is.

deanhills
mqmpakistani wrote:
but now the world has left only 2 options for them.
How come? I thought the world was not intervening? Wasn't that your main criticism against the US as well?

mqmpakistani wrote:
What do you think where the Liberal forces of Syria will be standing in this situation? The US leaders may criticize us for supporting the dictatorship, but still we are firm on our stand and believe it to be the only right decision at this moment.

For sure, the change should come and the Regime must go. But it should happen peacefully through the ballot box, and not through the Salafi led armed blood thirsty opposition.
Another anomaly. First you refer to a dictatorship, then a ballot box. If the regime is suppressing the rebellion as brutally as it is doing, with all of Syria's armaments at its disposal, where does a ballot box feature in all of this?
mqmpakistani
deanhills wrote:
mqmpakistani wrote:
but now the world has left only 2 options for them.
How come? I thought the world was not intervening? Wasn't that your main criticism against the US as well?


How come you think that world is not intervening? Whole world seems to intervening in Syria. Be it Saudia, Qatar, Lybia, Morocco, UAE, Chechnya, Pakistani Mujahideen...... or be it US, France etc.

I think you misunderstood.

It is not the Syria, but it is the Bahrain where world is not intervening at all, but present some what silent support to the Khalifa family.



Quote:
mqmpakistani wrote:
What do you think where the Liberal forces of Syria will be standing in this situation? The US leaders may criticize us for supporting the dictatorship, but still we are firm on our stand and believe it to be the only right decision at this moment.

For sure, the change should come and the Regime must go. But it should happen peacefully through the ballot box, and not through the Salafi led armed blood thirsty opposition.

Another anomaly. First you refer to a dictatorship, then a ballot box. If the regime is suppressing the rebellion as brutally as it is doing, with all of Syria's armaments at its disposal, where does a ballot box feature in all of this?


No, this is not the real situation in Syria.

But the real situation is this that Assad Regime does want the reforms and ballot box solution, but the opposition and Saudia and US don't want the elections. While it is clear that at moment majority of the Syrian people are supporting the Assad Government (above 55%). This is according to the different polls which were done by the west or by the Arabs.

And main point is this that opposition is totally divided in itself. It consists of extreme secular to the extreme religious fanatics. It was a nightmare for Saudia, Qatar, Turkey and US to bring all of them on one table and sit together as opposition. Ridiculous efforts were made in this regards. These groups hate each other more than Assad.

Therefore, there is no chance of any one of them winning the presidential elections against the Assad, who is personally very much like in the Syrian population.

The opposition and US know this fact. And therefore they never tried to solve this problem through negotiations. There is only brutal use of power to destroy the regime, which is bringing only bloodshed for the Syrian People.

UNO resolutions also mentioned the only way is to go to the ballot box. But US/Saudia and their backed Opposition has demanded much more than the UNO resolutions, that is Assad should step down, otherwise they will never to the negotiation table.


So, on one side we have Assad Regime, who is fully ready for the reforms, fully ready for the elections and ballot box, but the Saudia/US/Europe are not ready and funding the Salafi terrorists from all over the world.

And on the other side, we have Khalifa Regime of Bahrain, who is absolutely not ready for any Reforms, not ready for any elections or ballot box, but still Saudia/US/Europe is supporting the Khalifa Regime and they have abandoned the Bahraini People.

Why is it difficult for the educated and humanity loving people of WEST to see these Double Standards?

It is really disturbing fact and I could tell you that even the liberals in our region then doubt the intentions of US leaders. We suffered the most at hands of al-Qaida and Taliban, who were actually created by the CIA for the US interests. But this al-Qaida and Taliban killed millions of Liberals in our region left and right.
deanhills
mqmpakistani wrote:
deanhills wrote:
mqmpakistani wrote:
but now the world has left only 2 options for them.
How come? I thought the world was not intervening? Wasn't that your main criticism against the US as well?


How come you think that world is not intervening? Whole world seems to intervening in Syria. Be it Saudia, Qatar, Lybia, Morocco, UAE, Chechnya, Pakistani Mujahideen...... or be it US, France etc.

I think you misunderstood.
No I didn't misunderstand. You complained previously about the US not intervening in Bahrain. Now you have a different point of view for Syria because it suits you? Meaning it's OK for the US to intervene elsewhere but just not in Syria because you are in favour of the current dictatorship. Sounds like double standards to me.

mqmpakistani wrote:
Quote:
mqmpakistani wrote:
What do you think where the Liberal forces of Syria will be standing in this situation? The US leaders may criticize us for supporting the dictatorship, but still we are firm on our stand and believe it to be the only right decision at this moment.

For sure, the change should come and the Regime must go. But it should happen peacefully through the ballot box, and not through the Salafi led armed blood thirsty opposition.

Another anomaly. First you refer to a dictatorship, then a ballot box. If the regime is suppressing the rebellion as brutally as it is doing, with all of Syria's armaments at its disposal, where does a ballot box feature in all of this?


No, this is not the real situation in Syria.

But the real situation is this that Assad Regime does want the reforms and ballot box solution, but the opposition and Saudia and US don't want the elections. While it is clear that at moment majority of the Syrian people are supporting the Assad Government (above 55%). This is according to the different polls which were done by the west or by the Arabs.

And main point is this that opposition is totally divided in itself. It consists of extreme secular to the extreme religious fanatics. It was a nightmare for Saudia, Qatar, Turkey and US to bring all of them on one table and sit together as opposition. Ridiculous efforts were made in this regards. These groups hate each other more than Assad.

Therefore, there is no chance of any one of them winning the presidential elections against the Assad, who is personally very much like in the Syrian population.

The opposition and US know this fact. And therefore they never tried to solve this problem through negotiations. There is only brutal use of power to destroy the regime, which is bringing only bloodshed for the Syrian People.

UNO resolutions also mentioned the only way is to go to the ballot box. But US/Saudia and their backed Opposition has demanded much more than the UNO resolutions, that is Assad should step down, otherwise they will never to the negotiation table.


So, on one side we have Assad Regime, who is fully ready for the reforms, fully ready for the elections and ballot box, but the Saudia/US/Europe are not ready and funding the Salafi terrorists from all over the world.

And on the other side, we have Khalifa Regime of Bahrain, who is absolutely not ready for any Reforms, not ready for any elections or ballot box, but still Saudia/US/Europe is supporting the Khalifa Regime and they have abandoned the Bahraini People.

Why is it difficult for the educated and humanity loving people of WEST to see these Double Standards?

It is really disturbing fact and I could tell you that even the liberals in our region then doubt the intentions of US leaders. We suffered the most at hands of al-Qaida and Taliban, who were actually created by the CIA for the US interests. But this al-Qaida and Taliban killed millions of Liberals in our region left and right.
Now this is where you also completely lost me. The US is not involved in Syria. Yet you say they are? Assad is allied with Iran, Russia and China. So why focus all of the time on the US, who is not involved, and no mention of Russia, China and Iran who are very much involved.
mqmpakistani
deanhills wrote:
No I didn't misunderstand. You complained previously about the US not intervening in Bahrain. Now you have a different point of view for Syria because it suits you? Meaning it's OK for the US to intervene elsewhere but just not in Syria because you are in favour of the current dictatorship. Sounds like double standards to me.


It seems I was unable to convey my message.

1. The main aim is to bring rights to the people of the region, introducing the democracy, bringing end to dictatorship.

2. In Bahrain, absolutely nothing was done and actually there is silent support to the regime of al-Khalifa.


3. But in Syria, it was intentionally over done (i.e. Evil Interference), made it bloodier, al-Qaida Salafist were invloved, dictatorships like Saudia and Qatar were involved and supported.

In Syria, the government is much more liberal as compared to Saudia, Qatar & Bahrain, and showing continuous signs of Reforms and elections and giving full rights to the people.

But no attention is paid to the reforms and the peaceful negotiations, but full attention is paid to give green signal to Saudia and Qatar to bring the Jihadist from all over the world to Syria, and then to arm them.

What are the results? No hope for Syrian people to get any rights or reforms. And we could totally forget about the minorities who are going to be slaughtered and their majority has already left their homes.

Are you still not able to see this intention of an Evil Interference, where the aim is not to bring rights to the people of Syria, but there is only one aim and that is to topple the government.



Quote:
Now this is where you also completely lost me. The US is not involved in Syria. Yet you say they are? Assad is allied with Iran, Russia and China. So why focus all of the time on the US, who is not involved, and no mention of Russia, China and Iran who are very much involved.


Aren't these 3 countries not already the declared axis of evil in the West in this Syrian Crises?

These 3 countries are not on the hidden side of the story.

Nevertheless, all these 3 countries are also demanding the Reforms and peaceful solution through negotiations, which is also demanded by Assad Regime, and which is also demanded by the Syrian People.

While the US side and it's allies like Saudia, Qatar, al-Qaida Jehadists are not demanding the Reforms, and peaceful solution through negotiations, but they are demanding the toppling of the Regime.
deanhills
mqmpakistani wrote:
Are you still not able to see this intention of an Evil Interference, where the aim is not to bring rights to the people of Syria, but there is only one aim and that is to topple the government.
I see that you support the current dictatorship in Syria. This dictatorship does not allow other groups in Syria to oppose the dictatorship and is doing everything in its power to destroy and neutralize those groups. "Democracy" intended by Assad is a dictatorship style democracy, where the current regime gets to decide what and how the democracy will work. In effect can never be a democracy, as democracy is for and by the people. If the current dictatorship decided how the democracy should be, then it is no longer a democracy.

mqmpakistani wrote:
While the US side and it's allies like Saudia, Qatar, al-Qaida Jehadists are not demanding the Reforms, and peaceful solution through negotiations, but they are demanding the toppling of the Regime.
Perhaps you could show the US demands, as far as I know the US leadership has not interfered with Syria. It is not happy with the current situation in Syria, but up to now has chosen not to intervene, leaving it for the Syrians to sort out. Iran in contrast has been actively involved with Assad. Iran of course is a dictatorship in its own right. I just can't get it that any country who is a dictatorship can talk about democracy.
mqmpakistani
deanhills wrote:
I see that you support the current dictatorship in Syria. This dictatorship does not allow other groups in Syria to oppose the dictatorship and is doing everything in its power to destroy and neutralize those groups. "Democracy" intended by Assad is a dictatorship style democracy, where the current regime gets to decide what and how the democracy will work. In effect can never be a democracy, as democracy is for and by the people. If the current dictatorship decided how the democracy should be, then it is no longer a democracy.


It is not good to blame any one that he support this group or that group.

We should forget the grouping and think only for the better solution and for the betterment of Syrian People (if any group I associate myself, then it is Liberal Syrian People who believe in Humanity... while I feel that Humanity is my religion, my aim).

Secondly, I am afraid you are not familiar with the solution presented by the UN. This provides the solution for bringing the reforms and democracy to the Syrian People and there is nothing such thing like Assad intended democracy etc.

Now situation is this that Assad Regime is ready to fully implement the UN plan, but the opposition is absolutely not ready for it, but they have put a prior condition that till the time Assad Regime is not toppled, they are not ready for any talks and negotiations.

I wish you understand this simple difference (hopefully).



Quote:
Perhaps you could show the US demands, as far as I know the US leadership has not interfered with Syria. It is not happy with the current situation in Syria, but up to now has chosen not to intervene, leaving it for the Syrians to sort out. Iran in contrast has been actively involved with Assad. Iran of course is a dictatorship in its own right. I just can't get it that any country who is a dictatorship can talk about democracy.


I don't know whether to weep or to laugh when you say that US is not interfering in the Syria.

US is demanding the Assad should resign.

US has put only one sided sanctions upon Assad.

US along with open help from Saudia and Qatar and Turkey inviting the Jehadist from all over the world and then arming them.

US and France and the West promising support for the rebels (except for the anti air defence systems while they fear that these rebels could use them against themselves).

I remember, US still deny it was involved in giving birth and support to Taliban in Afghanistan. I am afraid you are same way denying US involvement in Syria.
zaxacongrejo
freedom for people mr assad and his team are MURDERS again MURDERS and agian in case you didnt understand MURDERS

random air strikes. thast all i have to tell you
deanhills
mqmpakistani wrote:

We should forget the grouping and think only for the better solution and for the betterment of Syrian People (if any group I associate myself, then it is Liberal Syrian People who believe in Humanity... while I feel that Humanity is my religion, my aim).
My response to groupings came directly from you. All of my comments are responses to your discussion as per the quotes I supplied.

mqmpakistani wrote:
Secondly, I am afraid you are not familiar with the solution presented by the UN. This provides the solution for bringing the reforms and democracy to the Syrian People and there is nothing such thing like Assad intended democracy etc.
Sigh ..... now we're with the UN, during your previous discussion you were with Assad's proposal for "democracy" which is what I had responded to. How is it possible for a dictatorship to talk democracy? Particularly if they are dictating how the democracy is going to happen. Sounds pretty much like a wolf in sheep's clothing to me.

http://tehrantimes.com/politics/104707-iran-expresses-support-for-assads-new-peace-plan

mqmpakistani wrote:
Now situation is this that Assad Regime is ready to fully implement the UN plan, but the opposition is absolutely not ready for it, but they have put a prior condition that till the time Assad Regime is not toppled, they are not ready for any talks and negotiations.

I wish you understand this simple difference (hopefully).
Not while Assad is using Syria's armaments (supplied courtesy of Iran) on its own people, no, and not when he is dictating "democracy" to his people and to the world, no.

mqmpakistani wrote:
Quote:
Perhaps you could show the US demands, as far as I know the US leadership has not interfered with Syria. It is not happy with the current situation in Syria, but up to now has chosen not to intervene, leaving it for the Syrians to sort out. Iran in contrast has been actively involved with Assad. Iran of course is a dictatorship in its own right. I just can't get it that any country who is a dictatorship can talk about democracy.


I don't know whether to weep or to laugh when you say that US is not interfering in the Syria.

US is demanding the Assad should resign.

US has put only one sided sanctions upon Assad.

US along with open help from Saudia and Qatar and Turkey inviting the Jehadist from all over the world and then arming them.

US and France and the West promising support for the rebels (except for the anti air defence systems while they fear that these rebels could use them against themselves).

I remember, US still deny it was involved in giving birth and support to Taliban in Afghanistan. I am afraid you are same way denying US involvement in Syria.
I'm talking about meaningful interference. Of the kind where they invade Syria. Of the kind where they supply armaments to the rebels. Do you have evidence for the promises of support to the rebels? Who are the West? The US is not the only country who asked Assad to resign.

More important than the US, Assad's own people have asked him to resign.
mqmpakistani
zaxacongrejo wrote:
freedom for people mr assad and his team are MURDERS again MURDERS and agian in case you didnt understand MURDERS

random air strikes. thast all i have to tell you


Sorry dear, but this is what I am pointing out right from the beginning.

I am telling right from the beginning that it is Only One Side of the story.

If Assad Regime is tyrant, then the US/Saudi/Qatar backed Wahabi Muslims are 100s of times more tyrant than them, and they have brought absolute destruction to Syria and it's people. ..... it is that other side of the story which is being ignored continuously. Very sad indeed.
deanhills
mqmpakistani wrote:

If Assad Regime is tyrant, then the US/Saudi/Qatar backed Wahabi Muslims are 100s of times more tyrant than them, and they have brought absolute destruction to Syria and it's people. ..... it is that other side of the story which is being ignored continuously. Very sad indeed.
That sounds almost like another wrong makes Assad's wrong right. Unfortunately the killing of his own people, the fact that all of the bank vaults in Syria are almost empty of money, the fact that the cream of professionals have left the country in droves resulting in a brain drain, the fact that Syria faces starvation, the fact that Syria has been in turmoil for as long as it has been, I think is reason enough for a vote of no confidence in Assad's Government. Even Russia has started to talk that this can't last much longer now.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9742034/Syria-Russia-finally-admits-that-Assads-time-is-nearly-up.html
mqmpakistani
deanhills wrote:
That sounds almost like another wrong makes Assad's wrong right. Unfortunately the killing of his own people, the fact that all of the bank vaults in Syria are almost empty of money, the fact that the cream of professionals have left the country in droves resulting in a brain drain, the fact that Syria faces starvation, the fact that Syria has been in turmoil for as long as it has been, I think is reason enough for a vote of no confidence in Assad's Government. Even Russia has started to talk that this can't last much longer now.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9742034/Syria-Russia-finally-admits-that-Assads-time-is-nearly-up.html


You are going for the wrongs of Assad.

But I want to bring that side of story that what is right for the People of Syria. And in this picture, it is not only Assad, but also the behavior of US Leaders is worst than Assad and has brought 100s of times more destruction upon Syrian People than Assad Regime.

And this is that side of the story which is being neglected in the Western Media, and thus even by the Western People.
deanhills
mqmpakistani wrote:
deanhills wrote:
That sounds almost like another wrong makes Assad's wrong right. Unfortunately the killing of his own people, the fact that all of the bank vaults in Syria are almost empty of money, the fact that the cream of professionals have left the country in droves resulting in a brain drain, the fact that Syria faces starvation, the fact that Syria has been in turmoil for as long as it has been, I think is reason enough for a vote of no confidence in Assad's Government. Even Russia has started to talk that this can't last much longer now.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9742034/Syria-Russia-finally-admits-that-Assads-time-is-nearly-up.html


You are going for the wrongs of Assad.
You're doing it again. Start a new point whereas I had been responding to your point which basically created a guiltless picture of Assad. I wasn't going for Assad's wrongs. I was responding to your points about how innocent Assad's supposed to be.

mqmpakistani wrote:
But I want to bring that side of story that what is right for the People of Syria. And in this picture, it is not only Assad, but also the behavior of US Leaders is worst than Assad and has brought 100s of times more destruction upon Syrian People than Assad Regime.

And this is that side of the story which is being neglected in the Western Media, and thus even by the Western People.
Again, what has the US got to do with the killings in Syria? The people who are responsible for killing one another are the Syrians themselves. Not the US. As far as I can see the US as well as many other countries in the world including Russia and China want the killings to stop. The person who is doing the most killing single handedly is Assad, with his billions of support in military infrastructure from Iran. Remember, the "rebels" are not getting any support from any where. They are running out of ammunition. Very soon too Iran may stop its military support of Assad as well. If you want to blame any country or person, I'd go for Iran and for Assad.
zaxacongrejo
soon or later they will start to defend sharia
RosenCruz
Such a beautiful country it was when I visited Syria back in late 2011. Now I am sad to see it tearing down. I do not support Beshar Esad but I do believe that protesters are not much better guys.

What will happen if Esad regime falls ?

1-)Moslem religious law will rule

2-)There will be no democracy

3-)Christians might be mass murdered.
zaxacongrejo
Quote:
What will happen if Esad regime falls ?

israel will finaly bomb iran and get ride of nathans plant
deanhills
zaxacongrejo wrote:
Quote:
What will happen if Esad regime falls ?


israel will finaly bomb iran and get ride of nathans plant
I'd imagine Israel only doing that in a very extreme case of self-defense. If it should bomb Iran without the US's tactical support, it would be the equivalent of committing financial and political seppuku for Israel.
zaxacongrejo
2 weeks to 1 month
capricornis
It is not that much that the western governments are 'evil' and they 'hate' Assad and want to put the rebels in power at any cost and by any means... The west knows well that the rebels might prove to be even worse than the current regime, as the several examples after the Arab Spring showed, albeit in the short term.

However, Assad has rejected all calls for negotiations and pretty much every offer to step down and diffuse the situation, so the West has no choice but to support the rebels, although half=heartedly.

There is no viable solution for Syria right now. All options look equally bleak.
zaxacongrejo
capricornis wrote:
It is not that much that the western governments are 'evil' and they 'hate' Assad and want to put the rebels in power at any cost and by any means... The west knows well that the rebels might prove to be even worse than the current regime, as the several examples after the Arab Spring showed, albeit in the short term.

However, Assad has rejected all calls for negotiations and pretty much every offer to step down and diffuse the situation, so the West has no choice but to support the rebels, although half=heartedly.

There is no viable solution for Syria right now. All options look equally bleak.


Welcome to frihost yes agreed that’s the biggest problem right now, the after Assad we had seen that Libya didn’t worked but Syria is much developed country if you compare it to Libya so they should have normal people there to assume the power, my honest opinion now is just a question of time Assad goes down Israel will than clean the Nathans plant and them UN or some other force will maintain the peace like they did in some neighbors countries.
deanhills
capricornis wrote:
It is not that much that the western governments are 'evil' and they 'hate' Assad and want to put the rebels in power at any cost and by any means... The west knows well that the rebels might prove to be even worse than the current regime, as the several examples after the Arab Spring showed, albeit in the short term.

However, Assad has rejected all calls for negotiations and pretty much every offer to step down and diffuse the situation, so the West has no choice but to support the rebels, although half=heartedly.

There is no viable solution for Syria right now. All options look equally bleak.
Well said and welcome to Frihost as well.

I'd say in addition that as long as Assad could just stay in Syria, and not get involved with countries outside Syria, he probably would have got away with trying to contain the rebels, as Saddam Hussein had done for many years in Iraq. But first Assad tried international patience when he used his country as a spring board for attacks in Lebanon, and then seems to have allied himself with Iran. Making him responsible for setting himself up as a threat to peace. Like Saddam Hussein, there was a point where all of the power went straight to his head and he started to act in a way that made him into a problem. No doubt plenty of what he did was to get extra funding from Iran. Would be interesting to see how that money was disbursed.
RosenCruz
Quote:
However, Assad has rejected all calls for negotiations and pretty much every offer to step down and diffuse the situation, so the West has no choice but to support the rebels, although half=heartedly.


I do not agree with this. Assad is ready for negotiations.But rebels have to put down weapons first. He made signals of a new constitution, multi party regime and democratic elections.
zaxacongrejo
Iran will pay anything to maintain Israel were it is, Syria its a wall between them and Nathans
mqmpakistani
capricornis wrote:
It is not that much that the western governments are 'evil' and they 'hate' Assad and want to put the rebels in power at any cost and by any means... The west knows well that the rebels might prove to be even worse than the current regime, as the several examples after the Arab Spring showed, albeit in the short term.

However, Assad has rejected all calls for negotiations and pretty much every offer to step down and diffuse the situation, so the West has no choice but to support the rebels, although half=heartedly.

There is no viable solution for Syria right now. All options look equally bleak.



This is a false Western Propaganda unfortunately.

It is not Assad who rejected any talks, but it is 100% the Saudia/Qatar/US/FSA who rejected all types of talks.
They put a precondition that Assad should be sacked before any kind of talks could begin.
mqmpakistani
Here is one of the Videos of BBC, where at least the truth has been shown about the Syrian Population and about the Jehadists, who openly saying that there is no place of Democracy in Syria, and if Assad falls, it means only Sharia Ruling the Syria (It is equal to slaughtering of Minorities).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21065619
mqmpakistani
Here another Video, which contains the programs from Al-Jazeera, BBC and RT and other news channels that how Syrian Population is fed up with the Salafi Terrorist Opposition, and praying for Assad Regime now.

mqmpakistani
Here another Video of Syrian Opposition, which is backed by Saudia/Qatar and the US .... You can see they are chanting that Osama bin Laden is their Hero and they will destroy US too again with civilian plane, and they will slaughter the Minorities in Syria.

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