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Cost of 9/11 planning/execution vs US military spending






Do you feel that spending trillions on a traditional war actually stops low-tech, non-traditional warfare/terrorist attacks??
Yes, I feel it to be effective.
16%
 16%  [ 1 ]
I think it is only partially effective.
33%
 33%  [ 2 ]
No, I do not feel it is effective.
50%
 50%  [ 3 ]
I feel it achieves the exact opposite of our goal.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 6

JoryRFerrell
If it would theoretically have only cost the insurgents 1-2 million to pull off the 9/11 attack, would spending trillions on the war in the Middle East really prevent another 9/11? If all it takes is one rich man to finance such an operation and a handful of men to carry out, are we really achieving anything by a large scale war in Afghanistan? Could we be causing more damage by fighting the way we are in the Middle East? If we wanted to win using our current methods, wouldn't we technically need to wipe out every last person capable of financing such an operation (which is not possible)? Wouldn't we need to kill at least all adult males to ensure that no small group of 20 men could pull off another attack? Isn't this a fundamentally different type of war from fighting against another nation, like Russia? Can we win by handing no bid contracts to contractors, buying fancy new trucks from private sector military suppliers, and continuing to use drone strikes despite their use having harmed public relations with the locals?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_of_the_September_11_attacks

According to this, the attacks were generally planned, but without targets chosen until 4 weeks before 9/11. The short timeline shows flexibility. If they can receive general skills training and then pick suitable targets right before the attack, we have less of a chance to catch wind of target names being thrown around by them, thereby raising red flags and helping us realize we need to focus on them.

Also, researching typical flight school tuition fees, I have seen relatively few with costs over fifty-thousand dollars.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5612567_average-flight-attendant-school-tuition.html

Attempting to bring little attention to themselves (They chose California as point of entry to prevent being close to potential targets, and they stayed away from mosques, etc.), it's unlikely they would have been flashing cash, and attending the most expensive schools. But let's say they did. So their training cost roughly 50k apiece. Two of the hi-jackers paid roughly $114,000 for sure.
(read the wiki report at: "7.2 THE 9/11 PILOTS IN THE UNITED STATES")
Add to this the costs for food, shelter, weapons (box-cutters, which hardly counts as a cost), and you still have a relatively cheap operation. Osama didn't even NEED all his generals to plan this. They simply needed 20 men to carry it out, the necessary training, and the funds to put it all together. So 21 men are all it takes, especially on a budget, to perform 9/11. It may have cost them only a total of 1 million dollars. If that. This is in contrast to our expenditure of trillions in munitions, wasteful contracts, and what amounts to advertising for the recruitment of terrorists by killing civilians.

In the end, these types of people will not listen to reason. You cannot guilt trip them into stopping by killing their fellow natives. And by killing natives, you convince more to join them, at first for the initial goal of kicking us out of their country, then possibly coming here to retaliate in kind after that. Even if you manage to stomp the Afghans into submission, you have to deal with the fact that we are NOT just fighting Afghan insurgents in Afghanistan. We are fighting people from all over the globe who have flocked there specifically to fight against us. So even if you kill all Afghans posing a threat, you have to do it all over in Yemen, Pakistan, Libya, etc. We are already in the pits with our current war, how can we afford to fight everyone? We can't. Point blank. But it sure is financially convenient for Blackwater/Z/Academi (or whatever else they may call themselves nowadays) to make a go of it, having been given the go-ahead by politicians-for-hire. :\

Your thoughts? Oh, and please take the poll. Razz
JoryRFerrell
Please note that the 9/11 commision report states directly that they spent an estimated 400-500k on the attack. Half of my estimate. I was overly generous. Neutral
deanhills
Does it calculate in the following:

Jobs to people in the military, both at home in the US and abroad
Jobs in armaments
Jobs to local people in the countries where the US has a presence
Safety and security of people in the countries where the US has a presence
Investment in promoting US power
Investment in being military prepared and in military top form all of the time, particularly a new kind of warfare
Investment in military intelligence and technology
Etc.

If US takes a backseat in military power, this may have a negative impact on the economy. People may not trade with the US as a super power any longer. Dollar will completely slump. Huge number of unemployed added who have to be carried by the US Government for welfare and unemployment benefits. Armament conglomerates will have to cut operations as well, more unemployed, as well as some of the sub-contractors will fail. Military experts working for a military with no more trillions to spend, may seek better opportunities with those countries who are actively engaged in the military and who are willing to pay top dollars for their expertise. Like China, Russia, and perhaps up and coming military operators like Iran and India. Overall safety and security of the US will be in jeopardy.
JoryRFerrell
deanhills wrote:
Does it calculate in the following:

Jobs to people in the military, both at home in the US and abroad
Jobs in armaments
Jobs to local people in the countries where the US has a presence
Safety and security of people in the countries where the US has a presence
Investment in promoting US power
Investment in being military prepared and in military top form all of the time, particularly a new kind of warfare
Investment in military intelligence and technology
Etc.

If US takes a backseat in military power, this may have a negative impact on the economy. People may not trade with the US as a super power any longer. Dollar will completely slump. Huge number of unemployed added who have to be carried by the US Government for welfare and unemployment benefits. Armament conglomerates will have to cut operations as well, more unemployed, as well as some of the sub-contractors will fail. Military experts working for a military with no more trillions to spend, may seek better opportunities with those countries who are actively engaged in the military and who are willing to pay top dollars for their expertise. Like China, Russia, and perhaps up and coming military operators like Iran and India. Overall safety and security of the US will be in jeopardy.


I am surprised no one else answered this post.... :\
I thought it might receive at least 10 people or so....hmmm....
Why does no one want to touch this? Razz

Anyways, you misunderstand me...
I am not saying we should eschew military spending altogether. I AM saying that we should stop handing money out like candy. Of all the money we've spent in the Middle East, most of it was spent because we are at war. Not because we are simply prepared for war. I am for drone development. But I am not for drone development with politicians then making backdoor deals to buy millions of them. I am not for giving politicians free reign to hand money in no-bid contracts to companies which have already harmed foreign relations. Doing so can only lead to more pissed of Middle Easterners and less freedom/jobs here at home.
zaxacongrejo
How much does freedom values to you? Better even do you understand the concept?
Freedom is not just democracy in the middle east countries
Drones save life’s…………………..
you haven’t an opinion about them because you haven’t been there easy to understand when you are laid home in couch right ..and hohoho and blablabla
Let me tell you something strait away what those Gi don’t need is people questioning their work more even when those persons are Americans.
God bless the United States God bless the American GI
Or are you guys expecting to receive them back home like you did at the 70s with those returning home from Vietnam?
Please do yourself a favor save your feet’s please stop to shoot them OK?
YES ALL DOLLARS HAD BEEN WELL SPENT
YES ALL LOST LIFE’S PAID OFF
YES ALL VETERANS DESERVE RESPECT
YES ALL THOSE THAT RETURNED DISABLED ARE HEROES
Now about the monkeys we will smash them to the last bone
Crack crack crack
No way a monkey can beat a lion got it??
HURRA!!!!!!!!!!
HURRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HURRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
USA USA USA !

RosenCruz
US Military will always spend much, whether terrorists attack or not. China and Russia are gaining power again. Combined with the forever conflicts in middle east and US' holy mission to defend Israel, Pentagon will always want more
zaxacongrejo
Quote:
China and Russia are gaining power again

beacuse they are coming up for us again..
thats why they are huge supporters of the monkeys
ocalhoun
And there's your solution to the fiscal cliff 'crisis'!

Get rid of the organized military and instead just train a select few people to hijack civilian aircraft.
It'll save trillions!

See, we have a lot to learn from our terrorist opponents!
zaxacongrejo
Quote:
See, we have a lot to learn from our terrorist opponents!


lollllllllll sorry if you want to learn with them its up to you in what concerns to me there's nothing they can teach me really nothing monkeys? teach us doing what? (IEDS) ? how we live back in 1200?
what a hell!!!!!!!!!!!!
ocalhoun
You may need to bring your sarcasm detector in for servicing. It seems to be defective.
zaxacongrejo
its my English that isn't perfect
but i will be better with time.
i just noticed that what i read before dosent meen what i thought
no because we are not like them we are polite countries with values we respect the value of human life
JoryRFerrell
zaxacongrejo wrote:
How much does freedom values to you? Better even do you understand the concept?
Freedom is not just democracy in the middle east countries
Drones save life’s…………………..
you haven’t an opinion about them because you haven’t been there easy to understand when you are laid home in couch right ..and hohoho and blablabla
Let me tell you something strait away what those Gi don’t need is people questioning their work more even when those persons are Americans.
God bless the United States God bless the American GI
Or are you guys expecting to receive them back home like you did at the 70s with those returning home from Vietnam?
Please do yourself a favor save your feet’s please stop to shoot them OK?
YES ALL DOLLARS HAD BEEN WELL SPENT
YES ALL LOST LIFE’S PAID OFF
YES ALL VETERANS DESERVE RESPECT
YES ALL THOSE THAT RETURNED DISABLED ARE HEROES
Now about the monkeys we will smash them to the last bone
Crack crack crack
No way a monkey can beat a lion got it??
HURRA!!!!!!!!!!
HURRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HURRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
USA USA USA !



Wow...this was one of those top 5 quality posts that will earn you that free web account. That was sarcasm. BTW, calling people monkeys is exactly the kind of shit that gets an IED planted out in the roads over there. The people I am talking about when I refer to casualties? The innocent victims of drones are the subject here. Try telling them that drones save lives. If they were alive, I am fairly sure they would disagree. I am very capable of understanding that despite the fact that I am "at home". Also, I am not writing this while "LAID IN my couch". One, I don't own a couch, and two, you don't lay in a couch. You lay on it.

As for questioning my countries military, I have that right. And I have it for a reason. There will always be folks who attempt to do harm once they gain power. Politicians and soldiers who engage in unlawfully killing of civilians are the people I am questioning here. I am not attacking folks who don't support killing non-soldiers/combatants. I AM ATTACKING ANYONE WHO SUPPORTS "VOLUNTEER SOLDIERS" MURDERING PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT VOLUNTEERED TO FIGHT FOR ANYONE. There is a distinction between when an American soldier dies vs. a foreign civilian sitting at home when a rocket lands in their living room. The difference lies in that the US soldier has made a promise to give her/his life, if necessary, fighting to protect freedom, whereas the foreign civilian has not made any such promise. Therefore, their life is not forfeit in this war. We have no right to kill another human being so that you can sit around writing that it's necessary they lose their life so you and soldiers can continue "hurra hurra hurra"-ing around as if you give a damn about providing them safety, and preaching about the value of American Democracy/Freedom.

I am constantly subject to the scrutiny of my peers and I have a very hard time dealing with people because of my views. I recently went to jail over this shit. While there, I have been attacked. I had my head slammed into concrete, my throat was stepped on, I was choked, and 2 of my teeth were knocked out. I would love a chance to have a military-style fight with these punks who use their size and numbers to bully me. But my situation was worse in this case. Had I been beaten severely enough to die, had my skull been opened, it's possible nothing would have been done about it. I might very well have died on the damn jail floor, without ever having had a real way to fight back. I am not a "couch warrior". I have taken my licks for my positions and views.
As such,please stop replying to my posts until you can write comments that are not ignorant.
Ignorant comments would include, "Now about the monkeys we will smash them to the last bone
Crack crack crack
No way a monkey can beat a lion got it??
HURRA!!!!!!!!!!
HURRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HURRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
USA USA USA !"

I do not respect you, and until you can bring facts and reason to backup your position, I will not ever respect you. Please do yourself a favor, and stop shooting yourself in the feet. Twisted Evil
JoryRFerrell
ocalhoun wrote:
And there's your solution to the fiscal cliff 'crisis'!

Get rid of the organized military and instead just train a select few people to hijack civilian aircraft.
It'll save trillions!

See, we have a lot to learn from our terrorist opponents!


Sun Tzu was big on learning from the enemy. Rolling Eyes
Learning about and from the enemy is very important in war. Lack of flexibility in where we are willing to learn our lessons can lead to situations like the initial start of the war, where military planners failed to properly consider all the tactics and necessary equipment for fighting terrorists using guerrilla tactics.
I am not advocating we fight the same way here. I am pointing out that you cannot stop another 9/11
completely, by shelling countries. That is what we can learn from them and their tactics.

Terrorists are not like a country. They are not a formal presence. They don't have an avatar that is constantly hanging out in the public like entire countries do. In order to defeat Nazi Germany, we had to destroy a country. That was relatively straight forward and it was easy to see that we had obtained victory because Germanies strength was visibly apparent. It couldn't be hidden. This is not the case with terrorists. They can be "annihilated" and then regain strength after we leave. We can kill leadership till they are "all dead" but then we have to contend with new leaders being trained to replace them. These people are not "Nazi Germany". They can be hidden in the shadows with no way for us to gauge their strength. Have you ever heard of a sleeper cell? There are terrorists who's sole job is to sit round and recruit. Nothing else. They just recruit and train. How do you kill all of them? Remember, unlike Nazi Germany, when these guys act, you can't readily see it and take action, like bombing their panzer factory. That is a type of war reserved for enemies that can't hide due to their very nature of being. This enemy we face is more than capable of hiding. They can sit around dug in like ticks, waiting till we leave. They then flair backup after we leave.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2013729,00.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/25/the-endgame-is-a-well-researched-highly-critical-look-at-u-s-policy-in-iraq.html

I am not spouting bullshit here before analyzing what I am saying. Look at the figures. Look at how they fight. Sun Tsu said it is necessary to retract where the enemy is strong and to expand where/when the enemy is weak. Some terrorists in Iraq retracted while we were there. But this report from Oct 9, 2012, states that they have followed the advice of "The Art of War", and once again expanded:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/10/09/al-qaeda-iraq/1623297/

Attacks have shrunk in Afghanistan, but during lulls in air support, they have sprung back up.
They are laying low, and when we are inactive, they comeback around for more. This proves that killing via arty, bombs, or auto-cannon is ineffective. Especially once you factor in the civilian casualties we cause. Which, btw, is excellent recruiting propaganda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aECcjCr2foM
In this video, they specifically mention that Saudi's are forming part of the foreign forces...pointing right back to some of my other points about our relations with Saudi Arabia.
zaxacongrejo
loll first of all you aren’t no one to call me ignorant


Quote:
Wow...this was one of those top 5 quality posts that will earn you that free web account. That was sarcasm. BTW, calling people monkeys is exactly the kind of shit that gets an IED planted out in the roads over there. The people I am talking about when I refer to casualties? The innocent victims of drones are the subject here. Try telling them that drones save lives. If they were alive, I am fairly sure they would disagree. I am very capable of understanding that despite the fact that I am "at home". Also, I am not writing this while "LAID IN my couch". One, I don't own a couch, and two, you don't lay in a couch. You lay on it.

As for questioning my countries military, I have that right. And I have it for a reason. There will always be folks who attempt to do harm once they gain power. Politicians and soldiers who engage in unlawfully killing of civilians are the people I am questioning here. I am not attacking folks who don't support killing non-soldiers/combatants. I AM ATTACKING ANYONE WHO SUPPORTS "VOLUNTEER SOLDIERS" MURDERING PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT VOLUNTEERED TO FIGHT FOR ANYONE. There is a distinction between when an American soldier dies vs. a foreign civilian sitting at home when a rocket lands in their living room. The difference lies in that the US soldier has made a promise to give her/his life, if necessary, fighting to protect freedom, whereas the foreign civilian has not made any such promise. Therefore, their life is not forfeit in this war. We have no right to kill another human being so that you can sit around writing that it's necessary they lose their life so you and soldiers can continue "hurra hurra hurra"-ing around as if you give a damn about providing them safety, and preaching about the value of American Democracy/Freedom.


Causalities, innocent victims will always happen in war, no matter how much we care to avoid them, please show me a soldier that doesn’t care with it.
Who tells you i don’t have the right to questioning the USA military? do you know me ? do you know if im American or not?

ATTACKING ANYONE WHO SUPPORTS "VOLUNTEER SOLDIERS"
And again who are you? Do you really think anyone give a dam about what you say or write??

Quote:
There is a distinction between when an American soldier dies vs. a foreign civilian sitting at home when a rocket lands in their living room. The difference lies in that the US soldier has made a promise to give her/his life, if necessary, fighting to protect freedom, whereas the foreign civilian has not made any such promise.


Again collateral damage, no one wants it but it happens everywhere to much stuff can went wrong in a blink of an eye
About your insults ho boy really? Who cares?
Do you want me to help you? I can teach you? I can write how to insult zaxa for dummies if you want.
Save your energies and forget about the suicide by cop because they already are aware of it
have you tried VA?
zaxacongrejo
About the second post .you see no one here knew what you wrote so so new
hey wake up please
zaxacongrejo
JoryRFerrell
zaxacongrejo wrote:
loll first of all you aren’t no one to call me ignorant


Quote:
Wow...this was one of those top 5 quality posts that will earn you that free web account. That was sarcasm. BTW, calling people monkeys is exactly the kind of shit that gets an IED planted out in the roads over there. The people I am talking about when I refer to casualties? The innocent victims of drones are the subject here. Try telling them that drones save lives. If they were alive, I am fairly sure they would disagree. I am very capable of understanding that despite the fact that I am "at home". Also, I am not writing this while "LAID IN my couch". One, I don't own a couch, and two, you don't lay in a couch. You lay on it.

As for questioning my countries military, I have that right. And I have it for a reason. There will always be folks who attempt to do harm once they gain power. Politicians and soldiers who engage in unlawfully killing of civilians are the people I am questioning here. I am not attacking folks who don't support killing non-soldiers/combatants. I AM ATTACKING ANYONE WHO SUPPORTS "VOLUNTEER SOLDIERS" MURDERING PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT VOLUNTEERED TO FIGHT FOR ANYONE. There is a distinction between when an American soldier dies vs. a foreign civilian sitting at home when a rocket lands in their living room. The difference lies in that the US soldier has made a promise to give her/his life, if necessary, fighting to protect freedom, whereas the foreign civilian has not made any such promise. Therefore, their life is not forfeit in this war. We have no right to kill another human being so that you can sit around writing that it's necessary they lose their life so you and soldiers can continue "hurra hurra hurra"-ing around as if you give a damn about providing them safety, and preaching about the value of American Democracy/Freedom.


Causalities, innocent victims will always happen in war, no matter how much we care to avoid them, please show me a soldier that doesn’t care with it.
Who tells you i don’t have the right to questioning the USA military? do you know me ? do you know if im American or not?

ATTACKING ANYONE WHO SUPPORTS "VOLUNTEER SOLDIERS"
And again who are you? Do you really think anyone give a dam about what you say or write??

Quote:
There is a distinction between when an American soldier dies vs. a foreign civilian sitting at home when a rocket lands in their living room. The difference lies in that the US soldier has made a promise to give her/his life, if necessary, fighting to protect freedom, whereas the foreign civilian has not made any such promise.


Again collateral damage, no one wants it but it happens everywhere to much stuff can went wrong in a blink of an eye
About your insults ho boy really? Who cares?
Do you want me to help you? I can teach you? I can write how to insult zaxa for dummies if you want.
Save your energies and forget about the suicide by cop because they already are aware of it
have you tried VA?


I don't give a damn if you are American or not.

zaxacongrejo wrote:

Who tells you i don’t have the right to questioning the USA military?


You told me that the last thing the troops needed was me questioning them. I never said you didn't have the right to criticize anyone jackass. Read slower next time so the words sink in. :/
I was in no mood to insult anyone till YOU started the name calling. YOU are the one who started slinging the word "Monkey" around to describe other people. Seriously. Stop answering my comments unless you have real info to bring to the table instead of posting "patriotic", opinionated videos. This topic is meant to discuss tactics. If you are here to act like a dolt and shoot your mouth off, don't bother commenting. Again. Explain why it's not collateral damage, but a huge tragedy worth war, when our citizens die, but when ME civilians die, it's just collateral damage?
That is the discussion. Grow a par and talk about the issue instead of hiding behind these stupid, lame, weak videos. America is supposed to stand for freedom and respect of human rights. That's why we supposedly went to war. But here we are, sending people who volunteered to risk their lives to kill (sometimes accidentally, sometimes not) innocent civilians.

Grow up and discuss these issues, objectively, and without bias, or without hiding behind arguments that WW2 SS soldiers used to hide behind while violating human rights in the name of "Freedom".
JoryRFerrell
zaxacongrejo wrote:
About the second post .you see no one here knew what you wrote so so new
hey wake up please


WTH is this supposed to mean? Mad

If you do not have anything to post that concerns this topic, stop commenting in this forum or I will petition to have you blocked from it permanently.
zaxacongrejo
I don't have the time which is different got it?
by the way, and again you are no one to tell me what to do, no one got it?
now and unfortunately AR will be filled because you crossed the line to many times
i do know how you feel oh yes i do,but only the time will help you.
and again what they don't need is you here questioning anything that they keep doing at the ground.
you see when you were there and use to use a computer to contact your family check email etc? now others will do the same and some take the chance check stuff some will eventually find you telling them that they shouldn't be there , they are wrong, people back in town no longer support them etc etc etc
do you find this fair? each time you questioning you are also risking some one return home in bag
keep this is mind please
zaxacongrejo
I forgot to mention something I just noticed now Monkey=terrorist=jihadist
This is what i was referring ok?
I was not calling normal persons monkeys.
And yes I don’t respect terrorists of any kind it doesn’t matter if they are white or black or religious or whatever, NOOOOOOOOOOOO I don’t respect them
i will say again i wish i could call them worst names like i do in rl but i cant because is against the tos
And honestly aren’t we all monkeys? Now not playing with words
We as specie know that we come from them right?
i know some say no, one other thing that i need to ask when you referring to racist people in the military are you referring to Aryan Brotherhood gangs etc?
You see I’m just American in paper because I born in Portugal where I live with a Californian girl from long beach and because we have business there it was better to be American nothing special
JoryRFerrell
zaxacongrejo wrote:
I don't have the time which is different got it?
by the way, and again you are no one to tell me what to do, no one got it?
now and unfortunately AR will be filled because you crossed the line to many times
i do know how you feel oh yes i do,but only the time will help you.
and again what they don't need is you here questioning anything that they keep doing at the ground.
you see when you were there and use to use a computer to contact your family check email etc? now others will do the same and some take the chance check stuff some will eventually find you telling them that they shouldn't be there , they are wrong, people back in town no longer support them etc etc etc
do you find this fair? each time you questioning you are also risking some one return home in bag
keep this is mind please


Regardless of whether I open my mouth or not, someone will die. SOMEONE WILL DIE. That someone will be a human being. Afghan or American, we are all human right? Why would you feel apprehension or worried about others saying you used slurs in referencing Middle Easterners? Because they are technically equal. So what changes in the split second from you supporting them as full humans with the right to not be called monkey, to you supporting an innocent ME being killed so that service members don't have to fully commit to their vow to avoid any harm to other innocent human beings by any means necessary? If they are not willing to die so they can avoid shooting a baby, do they give a crap about real freedom? Is real freedom and right to life ONLY for Americans?
You may feel that unpatriotic, but I call it critical thinking. Critical thinking is quite important in war. It allows you to get inside the enemies head and the heads of the non-militant population. Having explored both, I have determined that no matter what, if I was a motivated millionaire or brainwashed flunky backed by one, I would still possibly be able to pull off another attack despite that laser-guided bomb dropped on my neighbor, or maybe even because of it. Do you disagree with this? Give it a real honest try to think from the vantage point of a terrorist on the ground taking orders, the Pakistani who hates terrorists but doesn't support US air power, the rich warlord who is employing his propaganda experts to formulate effective anti-Americanism media, etc. After you have done that, I can't honestly see how you would say that it is in our long term interests to continue killing innocents without changes in our tactics to lessen the amount of "collateral damage".
It effects the recruiting prospects of new threats to our security, it violates another human beings right to live (and says to them that we feel they are not human, with human-rights, unless they live here), and so on. Neutral

Argue from the position of the foreigner who is potentially not for or against either side yet. What would their arguments be? Could you as that foreigner use your own words against America, regardless of whether you feel the propaganda was correct or not? If it would possibly sway others, maybe you should analyze whether or not that means you actually should change. Maybe the way you would prefer to fight is actually an idealist's way of thinking. You say I have the idealist's way of thinking by calling for less civilian casualties, but you are asking that we be able to have our cake and eat it too, by killing in ways that enrage, yet expecting them to sit back while we do so. Rolling Eyes

Also, I am perplexed that you feel soldiers should feel disheartened and threatened by what I write.
I am trying to view the overall tactical situation and determine whether or not what we are doing HARMS our security. It's not as if I am saying, "DOWN WITH AMERICA. America needs to roll over on it's back and let itself be run over." This is not at all what I am saying or asking for. Any intelligent soldier would recognize that I am actually trying to ask if there is a more EFFICIENT (I.E. QUICKER) way to win this war, while also possibly leaving us safer. The only way I can see how anyone would be threatened after understanding my real point of view and feel that my questioning of them is hostile and counter to their goals and purported ideals, is if they don't give a shit about the right's of Middle Easterners, and are racist or view this as some sort of holy war. I am trying to ensure that Americans face the toughest questions so that we can achieve the best possible state of safety, while also not being hypocrites while doing so. I am just not expecting freedom and the fight for it to be peaches and cream, allowing things that scare me, also cause me to ignore what the reality is. Maybe some Americans have to die to avoid killing that baby so that Middle Easterners
are less able to see us as an indisputable, permanent enemy.
JoryRFerrell
zaxacongrejo wrote:


Not to be a downer, but you cannot ignore our extreme opposite-side too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPN8xenN75k

How the hell did the commanding officers of this company, having ww2 military history as part of their war studies, not recognize this symbol as being a little to damned similar to the Nazi symbolism?
A girl I went to school with, during my elementary education, drew a swastika once. Every other child immediately recognized the symbol to be something you just don't draw. Why did well studied officers miss this? At the very least, this says we don't pay enough attention to how Nazi Germany formed.
It means we don't learn about how they formed and how they rose to power (they did so through powerful pageantry and memorable logo's that left a powerful impression on people...like the SS symbol :/).
ocalhoun
JoryRFerrell wrote:
(they did so through powerful pageantry and memorable logo's that left a powerful impression on people...like the SS symbol :/).

There's a bit more to it than good graphic design work.
JoryRFerrell
ocalhoun wrote:
JoryRFerrell wrote:
(they did so through powerful pageantry and memorable logo's that left a powerful impression on people...like the SS symbol :/).

There's a bit more to it than good graphic design work.



LOL...I am aware of that. I should have stated that this was simply a PART of their propaganda effort.
Anyways, rituals, symbols, etc, have always been used to make people feel "like part of the group".
The more rigidly people stick to symbols and tradition, the less likely they are to be tolerant to change.
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