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The 4th July a celebration of genocide and slavery?





JoryRFerrell
When "our" country fought for independence, it was also still supporting the murder and enslavement
of Native/African Americans. When we celebrate Independence day, aren't we celebrating the day
one group of people won it's fight for the freedom to control it's own slaves without being forced to pay a percentage of the profits earned by those same slaves? And for the freedom to advance westward, murdering Natives along the way, since they no longer needed to worry about England "stealing" the necessary resources they needed to do so?

Should we come up with a new, modern holiday that is solely about freedom and not necessarily geared towards supporting misogyny/slavery/genocide?
deanhills
JoryRFerrell wrote:
Should we come up with a new, modern holiday that is solely about freedom and not necessarily geared towards supporting misogyny/slavery/genocide?

Not a bad idea at all. I can't help wonder how many people in the world have won wars and riches on the basis of discrimination, and I'm not only talking about discrimination against black people, but also discrimination against white people, against people of religion or different religion or against women. Take Rwanda for example and how one tribe had almost annihilated another, enriching the tribe who took power by force. So maybe we should have a World Freedom Day.
JoryRFerrell
deanhills wrote:
JoryRFerrell wrote:
Should we come up with a new, modern holiday that is solely about freedom and not necessarily geared towards supporting misogyny/slavery/genocide?

Not a bad idea at all. I can't help wonder how many people in the world have won wars and riches on the basis of discrimination, and I'm not only talking about discrimination against black people, but also discrimination against white people, against people of religion or different religion or against women. Take Rwanda for example and how one tribe had almost annihilated another, enriching the tribe who took power by force. So maybe we should have a World Freedom Day.


Exactly....hell....maybe we should celebrate "Critical Thinking Day" the very next weekend after that. Razz
zaxacongrejo
The truth is truth but you cant forget about Americana, nowadays is more a question of holyday tradition
i think, anyway by those assumptions you will have to go further but much further because you see Americana is something that changes with time and the way people look to her.in my opinion no one is celebrating what you just wrote. People celebrate independence, freedom
the USA your answer its here





USA!!!!USA!!!!USA!!!!USA!!!! Very Happy

i forget to wrote 4 jullly in Alaska awsome!!!!
JoryRFerrell
zaxacongrejo wrote:
The truth is truth but you cant forget about Americana, nowadays is more a question of holyday tradition
i think, anyway by those assumptions you will have to go further but much further because you see Americana is something that changes with time and the way people look to her.in my opinion no one is celebrating what you just wrote. People celebrate independence, freedom
the USA your answer its here





USA!!!!USA!!!!USA!!!!USA!!!! Very Happy

i forget to wrote 4 jullly in Alaska awsome!!!!



lol...christ.....what is your first language btw? Just curious...

Anyways, I am aware people don't think about this kind of thing, but consider this for a moment:
Would you celebrate a holiday that originally was started by Hitler? Freak no. Of course not. You would immediately replace it with a new holiday that supported the general idea (if the general idea was even worth celebrating), but which is not specifically revolving around some particular date important to Hitler. It's the same here. We are celebrating the specific day that some real rough people gained their freedom, then turned around and persecuted others.

What if the Nazi party were still around...and it even used the swastika still. But, the party no longer supported racism....You would still say, "What. The. Actual. ******." It would be crazy.
deanhills
If you went to citizens of the US on 4th of July and asked them what the day is about, what would they say? It's a day off and a nice reason for a picnic? Or it is the Birthday of the US? Or just another day? Don't have time now, but it may be worth checking whether there are polls around that checked how US citizens feel about the 4th of July.
zaxacongrejo
Quote:
lol...christ.....what is your first language btw? Just curious...


Hi I’m Portuguese by the way and I do speak 4 languages dude.......
Not always great but that doesn’t matter you did understand what I meant
Can you do better?
Here is your answer enjoy it because we are always around and you know it Very Happy



Very Happy
handfleisch
No, we don't need a new holiday. The 4th of July doesn't represent those negative things you mention. It represents an amazing point in world history when a country started an experiment in a new form of government that was supposed to protect individual rights more than they had been in the monarchy of the UK. I agree with you that we should always remember the paradox that Native Americans, African Americans (all non-anglos, actually), and women were left out of the equation and we had to fight a long time for legal equality. The genocide against Native Americans has never really been addressed and probably never will be--it's the USA's biggest blind spot.
jmraker
If a 2nd new "Freedom Day" is created because there was some offensive situation occurring when the first "Freedom Day" was created like slavery or genocide, wouldn't future generations find something offensive going on now and want a 3rd "Freedom Day" to replace the 2nd "Freedom day" that they could claim is associated with some offensive behavior that went on back then (now). Then the future future generation would want a 4th "Freedom day" for the same reasons.

If you believe that we have MORE freedom now than in the past you need to catch up on the thousands of pages of regulations pouring out. You'll have freedom if you don't violate any of them... maybe. It seems like the only thing with more freedom is the government to do whatever it wants to us.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/17/report-another-1500-pages-of-regulations-added-last-week/
http://motorcitytimes.com/mct/2012/07/irs-hhs-13000-pages-of-new-obamacare-regulations-and-theyre-not-even-done/
JoryRFerrell
jmraker wrote:
If a 2nd new "Freedom Day" is created because there was some offensive situation occurring when the first "Freedom Day" was created like slavery or genocide, wouldn't future generations find something offensive going on now and want a 3rd "Freedom Day" to replace the 2nd "Freedom day" that they could claim is associated with some offensive behavior that went on back then (now). Then the future future generation would want a 4th "Freedom day" for the same reasons.

If you believe that we have MORE freedom now than in the past you need to catch up on the thousands of pages of regulations pouring out. You'll have freedom if you don't violate any of them... maybe. It seems like the only thing with more freedom is the government to do whatever it wants to us.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/17/report-another-1500-pages-of-regulations-added-last-week/
http://motorcitytimes.com/mct/2012/07/irs-hhs-13000-pages-of-new-obamacare-regulations-and-theyre-not-even-done/


I agree someone will always be attacking the personal freedoms of someone else. But I am asking why we specifically celebrate this particular point in time when racists were finally liberated from their own oppressors. It might make more sense to celebrate a holiday concerning the future of freedom rather than the illusion of freedom gained in the past.
JoryRFerrell
handfleisch wrote:
No, we don't need a new holiday. The 4th of July doesn't represent those negative things you mention. It represents an amazing point in world history when a country started an experiment in a new form of government that was supposed to protect individual rights more than they had been in the monarchy of the UK. I agree with you that we should always remember the paradox that Native Americans, African Americans (all non-anglos, actually), and women were left out of the equation and we had to fight a long time for legal equality. The genocide against Native Americans has never really been addressed and probably never will be--it's the USA's biggest blind spot.


This is exactly what it represents. Otherwise it would not be named "The 4th of July". The Fourth of July
is the date our country gained independence. The name is specifically geared towards this event and so that is indeed what it represents. It's not possible to claim otherwise...it's in the name for Christs sake...
It represents an amazing point in time? I disagree. It represented a time when some people said, "We will no longer take orders from a monarch. We want to be giving the orders to OUR slaves instead."
The Fourth of July is a celebration of men getting to become the slave master for a change.
JoryRFerrell
zaxacongrejo wrote:
Quote:
lol...christ.....what is your first language btw? Just curious...


Hi I’m Portuguese by the way and I do speak 4 languages dude.......
Not always great but that doesn’t matter you did understand what I meant
Can you do better?
Here is your answer enjoy it because we are always around and you know it Very Happy

Very Happy

Shocked Razz
handfleisch
JoryRFerrell wrote:
This is exactly what it represents. Otherwise it would not be named "The 4th of July". The Fourth of July
is the date our country gained independence. The name is specifically geared towards this event and so that is indeed what it represents. It's not possible to claim otherwise...it's in the name for Christs sake...
It represents an amazing point in time? I disagree. It represented a time when some people said, "We will no longer take orders from a monarch. We want to be giving the orders to OUR slaves instead."
The Fourth of July is a celebration of men getting to become the slave master for a change.
You want to only focus on the negative. US independence from the Britain was the beginning of a process that enshrined the democratic rights of citizens into a Constitution. This was a massive moment in history and started the democracy movement around the globe. It eventually led to the principle of equal rights for all that most of the world recognizes. The fact of slavery, genocide against the Native Americans, institutionalized racism and many other horrible aspects of US history are well known, but you have to ignore the rest of history to simply ascribe malicious intent to the US struggle of independence from Britain.
ocalhoun
handfleisch wrote:
JoryRFerrell wrote:
This is exactly what it represents. Otherwise it would not be named "The 4th of July". The Fourth of July
is the date our country gained independence. The name is specifically geared towards this event and so that is indeed what it represents. It's not possible to claim otherwise...it's in the name for Christs sake...
It represents an amazing point in time? I disagree. It represented a time when some people said, "We will no longer take orders from a monarch. We want to be giving the orders to OUR slaves instead."
The Fourth of July is a celebration of men getting to become the slave master for a change.
You want to only focus on the negative. US independence from the Britain was the beginning of a process that enshrined the democratic rights of citizens into a Constitution. This was a massive moment in history and started the democracy movement around the globe. It eventually led to the principle of equal rights for all that most of the world recognizes. The fact of slavery, genocide against the Native Americans, institutionalized racism and many other horrible aspects of US history are well known, but you have to ignore the rest of history to simply ascribe malicious intent to the US struggle of independence from Britain.



Could it be?


It IS true!

I actually completely agree with handfleisch!
If you focus only on negatives, you'll never find anything worth celebrating.


...And replacing it with a celebration honoring our current state?
There are plenty of negatives I could bring up about that too!
You're celebrating a state that tortures prisoners? a state that invades other countries with flimsy pretenses? a state that continues to display strong racist, misogynist, and homophobic tendencies? ... I could go on and on.
JoryRFerrell
ocalhoun wrote:
handfleisch wrote:
JoryRFerrell wrote:
This is exactly what it represents. Otherwise it would not be named "The 4th of July". The Fourth of July
is the date our country gained independence. The name is specifically geared towards this event and so that is indeed what it represents. It's not possible to claim otherwise...it's in the name for Christs sake...
It represents an amazing point in time? I disagree. It represented a time when some people said, "We will no longer take orders from a monarch. We want to be giving the orders to OUR slaves instead."
The Fourth of July is a celebration of men getting to become the slave master for a change.
You want to only focus on the negative. US independence from the Britain was the beginning of a process that enshrined the democratic rights of citizens into a Constitution. This was a massive moment in history and started the democracy movement around the globe. It eventually led to the principle of equal rights for all that most of the world recognizes. The fact of slavery, genocide against the Native Americans, institutionalized racism and many other horrible aspects of US history are well known, but you have to ignore the rest of history to simply ascribe malicious intent to the US struggle of independence from Britain.



Could it be?


It IS true!

I actually completely agree with handfleisch!
If you focus only on negatives, you'll never find anything worth celebrating.


...And replacing it with a celebration honoring our current state?
There are plenty of negatives I could bring up about that too!
You're celebrating a state that tortures prisoners? a state that invades other countries with flimsy pretenses? a state that continues to display strong racist, misogynist, and homophobic tendencies? ... I could go on and on.


You guys are not taking into account how I am talking about this holiday. We celebrate a SPECIFIC EVENT. Not the general idea. The holiday is celebrated on July 4th for a reason. It would be like if Germans were still celebrating Kristallnacht....not because it represented the repression of the Jewish, but because it was about the time Germany finally united in a single cause: "getting out of it's rut." That would be complete bull. Instead of celebrating a day called Kristallnacht which is a direct reference to the celebration of a day when REAL FREEDOM was not present. I am not focusing only on the negatives here. I actually proposed a solution as well: Freedom Day. But everyone ignored that for some reason.

Celebrate a holiday supporting freedom, supporting the march to ever greater degree's of freedom, not an illusion of freedom gained in the past (Thereby bypassing any concern that this holiday celebrates something offensive concerning current events. Esp. concerning illegal wars. Problem solved. Smile). But celebrating this particular holiday is not really supporting true freedom. You stated that the establishment of Americas independence set the stage ,in a way, for real freedom. I agree. But this is only because it occurred that way by accident. Again, imagine if the Nazi's had won world war two. They eventually had internal forces change the overall agenda, and the Nazi party became something "good". Would it be proper for Germans to celebrate "KristallNacht" or a "V-Day Victory" day, because at in modern times they stood for something "good" and decent? No. In the end, they are created in honor of events that were radically in opposition to the current idea they supposedly represent. If we pick this holiday up, and transplant it into another similar historical context, it makes zero sense.

Again, I am not focusing only on the negatives. I am focusing on the historical background of the holiday, and I have proposed a solution. Proposing solutions to problems is not something negative-focusing people engage in.

Rolling Eyes

Oh...and cute ponies. Was that a coincidence? Nope. Just how many people know about this? Is there seriously a dedicated twitter channel? WTH. Smile
ocalhoun
JoryRFerrell wrote:


You guys are not taking into account how I am talking about this holiday. We celebrate a SPECIFIC EVENT. Not the general idea. The holiday is celebrated on July 4th for a reason.

Okay, so it was made to celebrate the specific event of declaring independence from Great Britain.
Not an act of genocide or slavery.
So you, also, are adding in your own connotations.
Quote:
You stated that the establishment of Americas independence set the stage ,in a way, for real freedom. I agree. But this is only because it occurred that way by accident.

By accident? I think not.
From the very document this holiday celebrates:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"
No, the declaration of independence was a purposeful step towards freedom.
Quote:

Again, I am not focusing only on the negatives. I am focusing on the historical background of the holiday,

You're focusing on the negative aspects of history that (mostly) happened well after the date being celebrated.
Quote:

Oh...and cute ponies. Was that a coincidence? Nope. Just how many people know about this? Is there seriously a dedicated twitter channel? WTH. Smile

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/subcultures/my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic
Ponies are serious business.
JoryRFerrell
ocalhoun wrote:
JoryRFerrell wrote:


You guys are not taking into account how I am talking about this holiday. We celebrate a SPECIFIC EVENT. Not the general idea. The holiday is celebrated on July 4th for a reason.

Okay, so it was made to celebrate the specific event of declaring independence from Great Britain.
Not an act of genocide or slavery.
So you, also, are adding in your own connotations.
Quote:
You stated that the establishment of Americas independence set the stage ,in a way, for real freedom. I agree. But this is only because it occurred that way by accident.

By accident? I think not.
From the very document this holiday celebrates:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"
No, the declaration of independence was a purposeful step towards freedom.
Quote:

Again, I am not focusing only on the negatives. I am focusing on the historical background of the holiday,

You're focusing on the negative aspects of history that (mostly) happened well after the date being celebrated.
Quote:

Oh...and cute ponies. Was that a coincidence? Nope. Just how many people know about this? Is there seriously a dedicated twitter channel? WTH. Smile

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/subcultures/my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic
Ponies are serious business.


Let me rephrase. We are celebrating a specific event which was achieved for an entirely different purpose than what people think the founding fathers meant at the time they created it.
We are celebrating the specific moment in time when the "forefathers" declared independance from slavery, but still really supported slavery. THEY POINT BLANK, AT THAT SPECIFIC TIME, supported slavery. At that exact point in time, they were already Native Americans. So this exact event being celebrated is not really supportive of the type of freedom most of us would call "real freedom". It was an event celebrating hypocritical "freedom".

As for the comment about it being "accidental", let me call it an unintended consequence. Quite obviously, Thomas Jefferson, having owned 200+ slaves, Madison owned slaves, etc, I think it's safe to say that at the time the DOI was written, and when "freedom" was officially won, freedom wasn't really achieved because it wasn't the goal. It took 84 years AFTER "freedom" was won, before slaves were freed. And even then, it was another 100+ years before civil rights were finally starting to be recognized. I think many of the slave supporting fore fathers would have considered our modern history to be an unintended consequence of their victory. So can we really say that this event supports freedom, when at the time, the people celebrating that freedom owned slaves? THEY WERE NOT SUPPORTING FREEDOM. :\ They just weren't. This is not "focusing on the negative aspects of history that (mostly) happened well after the date being celebrated." I am referencing the specific date and what they believed at the time of this specific date. What the majority of them believed and what we feel we celebrate in modern times, are two completely different things.

Oh...and you posted the My Lil Pony thing at an usual time (especially considering how long it's been dead and I just used it recently), and I guess mistook your reason for posting it. Really crazy timing. Razz
ocalhoun
JoryRFerrell wrote:

Let me rephrase. We are celebrating a specific event which was achieved for an entirely different purpose than what people think the founding fathers meant at the time they created it.
We are celebrating the specific moment in time when the "forefathers" declared independance from slavery, but still really supported slavery. THEY POINT BLANK, AT THAT SPECIFIC TIME, supported slavery. At that exact point in time, they were already Native Americans. So this exact event being celebrated is not really supportive of the type of freedom most of us would call "real freedom". It was an event celebrating hypocritical "freedom".

Of course they supported slavery. Everyone who was anyone at the time did.
Still, it was a step in the right direction.
Quote:

Oh...and you posted the My Lil Pony thing at an usual time (especially considering how long it's been dead and I just used it recently), and I guess mistook your reason for posting it. Really crazy timing. Razz

It's not dead!
MLP is more popular than ever right now, and still rapidly growing.
JoryRFerrell
ocalhoun wrote:
JoryRFerrell wrote:

Let me rephrase. We are celebrating a specific event which was achieved for an entirely different purpose than what people think the founding fathers meant at the time they created it.
We are celebrating the specific moment in time when the "forefathers" declared independance from slavery, but still really supported slavery. THEY POINT BLANK, AT THAT SPECIFIC TIME, supported slavery. At that exact point in time, they were already Native Americans. So this exact event being celebrated is not really supportive of the type of freedom most of us would call "real freedom". It was an event celebrating hypocritical "freedom".

Of course they supported slavery. Everyone who was anyone at the time did.
Still, it was a step in the right direction.
Quote:

Oh...and you posted the My Lil Pony thing at an usual time (especially considering how long it's been dead and I just used it recently), and I guess mistook your reason for posting it. Really crazy timing. Razz

It's not dead!
MLP is more popular than ever right now, and still rapidly growing.



If Germany still celebrated the date the Nazi's finally gained control of the government and were no longer "repressed" by their fellow politicians, would that be considered a step in the right direction, since Germany is now a strong, self-determinate country?

And as for MLP...
Well....I never hear or see it anymore... Razz
truespeed
Independence day,the 4th of July,independence from the British? It is what it says on the tin.
JoryRFerrell
truespeed wrote:
Independence day,the 4th of July,independence from the British? It is what it says on the tin.


Razz
Once again...would it be reasonable to celebrate the day Hitler was able to gain control of the government. Technically, by celebrating his freedom from oppression by the government and his "independence" from their scrutiny and power, are you not also celebrating the fact that he was then free to commit to his agenda of murdering innocent humans? That's a direct parallel to celebrating
the freedom of slave owners from the British. They both run in the same directions. Rolling Eyes
truespeed
Would you rather the USA was still under British rule? If not at some point in their history they needed to break free and gain independence,a good thing and a day for celebration.
JoryRFerrell
truespeed wrote:
Would you rather the USA was still under British rule? If not at some point in their history they needed to break free and gain independence,a good thing and a day for celebration.


It's got nothing to do with what I want or don't want. It has to do with the facts. It has to do with how we view some similar situations (like Nazi Germany) in a negative light, yet we have a blind spot when it comes to analyzing our own country. And again, I wouldn't celebrate slave owners gaining freedom any more than I would celebrate a day honoring an alternate history in which the Nazi's murdered jews but later turned tolerant. That is the question. Put another way, what if the Nazi's broke away from Great Britain, and later turned into a nation of freedom. Would you continue celebrating a holiday in the honor of the original Nazi party? And technically, the early settlers of this country were no different than Nazi's. They just didn't have weapons allowing them to murder so quickly or efficiently. I am sure that had they had bombs and other ww2 era tech, they would have killed as many Native Americans and African Americans, in just as large of numbers, and just as quickly, as the Nazi's did through Europe.
truespeed
Your judging America then from your modern perspective. Keeping slaves back then was the norm,if you were in a family of wealth,you had slaves,if you were around back then and had money,you would of too. The white man at the time saw himself as superior to those of colour.

America as a country has done bad things,in the past and even today,this is true of all countries,I am sure Britain didn't become the biggest empire that the world had ever known by being nice.

We move on we learn,now we think quite rightly slavery is wrong.

Don't judge the USA of the past by your modern day view of right and wrong,they were just doing what ever other country did,trying to make their mark in the world.
HistoryGuy
The reason why the 4th of July is important is because of the principles described in the Declaration of Independence. The first principle was that a nation doesn't need a king to survive. This is obvious now, it wasn't then. The second is the idea that the individual is an independent sovereign being who lives for his own sake, not the government's. This is the significance of that document, and that date.

Recognize that over 10 years passed between the DOI and the ratification of America's constitution, and the two documents are ideologically opposed to each other. America does not celebrate the constitution on July 4th, or at least they shouldn't.

The constitution was merely an agreement between factory owners in the north who wanted tariffs imposed to make cheaper European goods more expensive, the plantation owners of the south who wanted to institutionalize slavery and make every state obligated to round up escapees, and finally the 'pioneers' who wanted to move west and colonize native land. All three needed a stronger central government to achieve these ends, and that's what the constitution gave them.

The constitution is where the evils of slavery and genocide come from, not the DOI and the principles of July 4th. So that's why it's worth celebrating.
JoryRFerrell
truespeed wrote:
Your judging America then from your modern perspective. Keeping slaves back then was the norm,if you were in a family of wealth,you had slaves,if you were around back then and had money,you would of too. The white man at the time saw himself as superior to those of colour.

America as a country has done bad things,in the past and even today,this is true of all countries,I am sure Britain didn't become the biggest empire that the world had ever known by being nice.

We move on we learn,now we think quite rightly slavery is wrong.

Don't judge the USA of the past by your modern day view of right and wrong,they were just doing what ever other country did,trying to make their mark in the world.


And in WW2 era Nazi Germany, it was quite normal to murder Jews. Is it ok for me to take my modern perspective on that situation and judge them? Yes. Of course. But it's not ok to do so when I am critical of our own countries history? Rolling Eyes
truespeed
JoryRFerrell wrote:


And in WW2 era Nazi Germany, it was quite normal to murder Jews. Is it ok for me to take my modern perspective on that situation and judge them? Yes. Of course. But it's not ok to do so when I am critical of our own countries history? Rolling Eyes


It wasn't ok to murder jews in 1939,the only people who thought it ok was the Nazi hierarchy,and even they knew it was wrong which why it was done secretly.

I am sure the Geneva convention didn't have "Killing jews is fine" written into it.
zaxacongrejo
and some nazis in that hierarchy were against it and helped jews to escape
ocalhoun
JoryRFerrell wrote:
That's a direct parallel to celebrating
the freedom of slave owners from the British.

The freedom of american slave owners from the british slave owners, you mean?


Here's a question for you:

Would the USA's human rights track record have been any better had it remained under British rule?
handfleisch
ocalhoun wrote:

Could it be?

It IS true!

I actually completely agree with handfleisch!
If you focus only on negatives, you'll never find anything worth celebrating.


And by strange coincidence, for once you're absolutely right!
JoryRFerrell
ocalhoun wrote:
JoryRFerrell wrote:
That's a direct parallel to celebrating
the freedom of slave owners from the British.

The freedom of american slave owners from the british slave owners, you mean?


Here's a question for you:

Would the USA's human rights track record have been any better had it remained under British rule?


Kinda late, but whatev. Razz

Anyway's, I meant exactly what I said. American slave owners fought for "freedom" from the British Empire. Celebrating this event is akin to celebrating the fall of the political parties that Hitler got rid of, even if you don't agree with Hitler's genocide. As for the potential "track record", this is not the issue. The issue I am talking about is the celebration of an event that is centered around racist, sexist individuals fighting for a twisted, warped sense of freedom. Can a racist really fight for freedom? That is the question. By celebrating the 4th of July, rather than freedom specifically, we are celebrating this half-baked version of freedom. But, to follow and answer your tangent, no. It would not have been. The British were just as bad at the time. India celebrates it's independence from Britain. If I celebrated British imperialism because it meant Great Britain was "free" of "internal oppression", wouldn't that mean I was celebrating not just Britain's strength, but it's oppression of the Indian people as well? It translates to this problem. If I celebrate Great Britain's past strength, I automatically celebrate the very thing other people see as a reason to celebrate freeing themselves from. However, if I were to celebrate the actual idea of freedom, rather than specific dates or events (i.e. Freedom Day, not "4th of July"), I would no longer be celebrating oppression indirectly.
handfleisch
JoryRFerrell wrote:


Kinda late, but whatev. :P

Anyway's, I meant exactly what I said. American slave owners fought for "freedom" from the British Empire. Celebrating this event is akin to celebrating the fall of the political parties that Hitler got rid of, even if you don't agree with Hitler's genocide. As for the potential "track record", this is not the issue. The issue I am talking about is the celebration of an event that is centered around racist, sexist individuals fighting for a twisted, warped sense of freedom. Can a racist really fight for freedom? That is the question. By celebrating the 4th of July, rather than freedom specifically, we are celebrating this half-baked version of freedom. But, to follow and answer your tangent, no. It would not have been. The British were just as bad at the time. India celebrates it's independence from Britain. If I celebrated British imperialism because it meant Great Britain was "free" of "internal oppression", wouldn't that mean I was celebrating not just Britain's strength, but it's oppression of the Indian people as well? It translates to this problem. If I celebrate Great Britain's past strength, I automatically celebrate the very thing other people see as a reason to celebrate freeing themselves from. However, if I were to celebrate the actual idea of freedom, rather than specific dates or events (i.e. Freedom Day, not "4th of July"), I would no longer be celebrating oppression indirectly.
Look at it this way: Are you ashamed right now, everyday, to be living in the world that you live in? Because by your logic, you are guilty of all the injustices that are going on now. Many of these injustices are things most people don't realize, and they certainly don't realize them everyday all the time. And if there is a progress (a big if at this point), some day in the distant future people will look back on us and say we were living in an immoral, "twisted, warped" time. A time when the USA kept a huge percentage of its citizens into prison, more than any other country. A time when income disparity was increasing, when income was being quickly distributed from the poor and middle class to the very rich. A time when laws were passed to ensure media monopolies. When families were destroyed because someone smoked a cigarette with cannabis in it. When it was almost impossible for most families to get by on one parent's income. A time when 90% of all money was transferred to and hoarded by 2% of the population. A time when laws were designed to take away the voting rights of 23% of the African American population in the state of Florida. http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000287 I'm not even going to get into women's rights issues.

Now I ask you, are you guilty of all these things? Are we all guilty of all these things because these are the times we live in? Does all our work for progress and freedom amount to nothing, because we live in these times? Are you as guilty as the slaveholders because you live in these times? Is someone who benefits from living in the USA, and works for justice, a terrible hypocrite, as guilty as the slaveholders who fought for freedom from Britain?

By your way of looking at things, the answer is yes.
JoryRFerrell
handfleisch wrote:
JoryRFerrell wrote:


Kinda late, but whatev. Razz

Anyway's, I meant exactly what I said. American slave owners fought for "freedom" from the British Empire. Celebrating this event is akin to celebrating the fall of the political parties that Hitler got rid of, even if you don't agree with Hitler's genocide. As for the potential "track record", this is not the issue. The issue I am talking about is the celebration of an event that is centered around racist, sexist individuals fighting for a twisted, warped sense of freedom. Can a racist really fight for freedom? That is the question. By celebrating the 4th of July, rather than freedom specifically, we are celebrating this half-baked version of freedom. But, to follow and answer your tangent, no. It would not have been. The British were just as bad at the time. India celebrates it's independence from Britain. If I celebrated British imperialism because it meant Great Britain was "free" of "internal oppression", wouldn't that mean I was celebrating not just Britain's strength, but it's oppression of the Indian people as well? It translates to this problem. If I celebrate Great Britain's past strength, I automatically celebrate the very thing other people see as a reason to celebrate freeing themselves from. However, if I were to celebrate the actual idea of freedom, rather than specific dates or events (i.e. Freedom Day, not "4th of July"), I would no longer be celebrating oppression indirectly.
Look at it this way: Are you ashamed right now, everyday, to be living in the world that you live in? Because by your logic, you are guilty of all the injustices that are going on now. Many of these injustices are things most people don't realize, and they certainly don't realize them everyday all the time. And if there is a progress (a big if at this point), some day in the distant future people will look back on us and say we were living in an immoral, "twisted, warped" time. A time when the USA kept a huge percentage of its citizens into prison, more than any other country. A time when income disparity was increasing, when income was being quickly distributed from the poor and middle class to the very rich. A time when laws were passed to ensure media monopolies. When families were destroyed because someone smoked a cigarette with cannabis in it. When it was almost impossible for most families to get by on one parent's income. A time when 90% of all money was transferred to and hoarded by 2% of the population. A time when laws were designed to take away the voting rights of 23% of the African American population in the state of Florida. http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000287 I'm not even going to get into women's rights issues.

Now I ask you, are you guilty of all these things? Are we all guilty of all these things because these are the times we live in? Does all our work for progress and freedom amount to nothing, because we live in these times? Are you as guilty as the slaveholders because you live in these times? Is someone who benefits from living in the USA, and works for justice, a terrible hypocrite, as guilty as the slaveholders who fought for freedom from Britain?

By your way of looking at things, the answer is yes.


We are guilty if we don't attempt to fix it. Weren't the Germans of world war 2 to blame for letting their own government murder innocent people? Freedom isn't free. It has to constantly be fought for and protected. If we are aware our government is doing something wrong and we sit back, saying, "Well, the world will never be perfect.", the world will not improve as fast as it could/should. Our government still has not properly address Native American right's. Part of this is because of public opinion on the subject, which is nil. Meaning the government feels it to be a non-issue and will continue ignoring it. I therefore have an obligation to get involved in my government. To ask why things are done this way and that. To question cultural ideals we supposedly uphold, but which seem to be more of a self-serving ritual/comfort blanket. How many people are aware of the Native American passport issues or recognition as sovereign entities on their own land? But we continue celebrating the 4th July, and use Native American cultural totems as symbols in our military, which early on in history, slaughtered them. Alpha Company of 2-4 10th Mountain uses (or used to use) Native Americans as mascots, with the motto of my company being, "Let them hate as long as they fear". Early settlers said the same shit about the Indian's when they first discovered these lands. But it's patriotic to continue using these symbols and motto's in conjunction, despite them holding a imperialist, racist, genocidal background as a result. Why do we still continue using Native American mascots which represent people our "forefathers" swept aside, enslaved, and oppressed, and who we still continue to ignore on issues of human rights and recognition. The answer is TRADITION.
It's tradition that acts as glue, since apparently people can't remember which country they support without having a flag to salute at football games. :\
Tradition is something no one is eager to upset. Besides me I s'pose. Razz
handfleisch
JoryRFerrell wrote:


We are guilty if we don't attempt to fix it. Weren't the Germans of world war 2 to blame for letting their own government murder innocent people? Freedom isn't free. It has to constantly be fought for and protected.


Well, since you read my post, you are aware of a great many things. Sounds like you're doing your part for Native Americans, and I salute you. But what about all the others? Aren't you guilty of them, if you are not actively attempting to fix them? And what about all those who don't realize these things, who don't get it (the same way the Founders didn't "get it" about slavery and Native Americans)? The point is, I don't think you (we) are automatically guilty of all things going on in our society. And it doesn't detract from what we are trying to do right. Same for the Founders who made a big step for freedom, that we celebrate on July 4th.
JoryRFerrell
handfleisch wrote:
JoryRFerrell wrote:


We are guilty if we don't attempt to fix it. Weren't the Germans of world war 2 to blame for letting their own government murder innocent people? Freedom isn't free. It has to constantly be fought for and protected.


Well, since you read my post, you are aware of a great many things. Sounds like you're doing your part for Native Americans, and I salute you. But what about all the others? Aren't you guilty of them, if you are not actively attempting to fix them? And what about all those who don't realize these things, who don't get it (the same way the Founders didn't "get it" about slavery and Native Americans)? The point is, I don't think you (we) are automatically guilty of all things going on in our society. And it doesn't detract from what we are trying to do right. Same for the Founders who made a big step for freedom, that we celebrate on July 4th.


Well, I didn't mean JUST Native Americans. I was simply pointing their issues out as an example of things which should be thought about as long as we intend to celebrate the 4th of July next year.
But we don't worry about the issues. It seems like people only think about "freedom" when it directly affects themselves, and when it affects others, it's out of sight, out of mind. It's like when the male British settlers fought for independence (males were really the policy makers at the time, and so benefited the most from "freedom"), they eventually got it, but then American society ceased to pay much attention to the plight of Asians, Native Americans, African Americans, women of all races, etc.

If freedom is worth fighting for, and you don't fight for other peoples rights when they are struggling
under an oppressive system, why do we deserve right's? Again, why should the average German have expected Americans to avoid performing bombing raids when they took no real action to stop the atrocities of their own country? They couldn't reasonably expect that because by sitting around and doing nothing, they inadvertently stated that they didn't care enough about human right's to attempt preventative action, and therefore their own human rights were forfeit.

Could the Nazi's really have celebrated a German 4th of July and actually been supporting freedom?
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