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Should we build memorials for Middle Eastern casualties?





JoryRFerrell
In the War on Terror, a war waged in the name of justice and Democracy....and Freedom....and Human Right's...and Compassion........

Shouldn't we build a memorial honoring all those innocent human beings( numbering at least 120,000) across the lake, who have lost their lives as a result of our weapons being dropped on their heads? Don't we owe it to the families who's innocent babies we killed by dropping 2000lbs JDAMs in urban areas? I'm thinking something akin the the memorial for Vietnam War POW's/MIA's wall. Wouldn't that be a powerful gesture of respect, proving that Americans think about the actions of our martial forces while we are in the Middle Eastern countries? Or is it only worth spending billions when 3000 Americans are murdered?

Would not doing so mean that we do not value a life lost if it's not American?

https://www.myspace.com/551393969/photos/4277036#{%22ImageId%22%3A4277036}
deanhills
JoryRFerrell wrote:
Would not doing so mean that we do not value a life lost if it's not American?

https://www.myspace.com/551393969/photos/4277036#{%22ImageId%22%3A4277036}
I'd have agreed if you had said that Americans value the lives of Americans who were killed more, which would have been human. Think most countries are like that any way. I'd say that 9/11 was a pretty big deal, not so much for the 3,000 Americans who passed away, but all of the Americans who were left behind, particularly those living in New York. It was also a big deal that the US had been attacked by terrorists in their own country. What followed was pretty much a script that could have been written. I still wonder whether someone had created that attack for that script to happen as I still think that that terror war attack was just too masterly executed for it to have been Al Qaeda's work. It was just too expertly coordinated in the hundreds of security details that had been breached and too amazing for the US to have been as vulnerable for multiple air attacks like that.
JoryRFerrell
deanhills wrote:
JoryRFerrell wrote:
Would not doing so mean that we do not value a life lost if it's not American?

https://www.myspace.com/551393969/photos/4277036#{%22ImageId%22%3A4277036}
I'd have agreed if you had said that Americans value the lives of Americans who were killed more, which would have been human. Think most countries are like that any way. I'd say that 9/11 was a pretty big deal, not so much for the 3,000 Americans who passed away, but all of the Americans who were left behind, particularly those living in New York. It was also a big deal that the US had been attacked by terrorists in their own country. What followed was pretty much a script that could have been written. I still wonder whether someone had created that attack for that script to happen as I still think that that terror war attack was just too masterly executed for it to have been Al Qaeda's work. It was just too expertly coordinated in the hundreds of security details that had been breached and too amazing for the US to have been as vulnerable for multiple air attacks like that.


Yea....well....conspiracies aside....(which I think you are being sarcastic about) Rolling Eyes ....

Is an American life more valuable, at a fundamental level, compared to a foreigners? Would it be acceptable to go to Germany, and bomb innocent German children, if German terrorists attacked the United States? What about French citizens? What about Israeli citizens?
zaxacongrejo
i can only whistle awtch
this is not a jooke whistle, you just wrote something heavy here ..fiiiiiiuuu!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i will return later to this post awtch!!!
zaxacongrejo
I’m back hm ,I will try to keep on topic please note my words could be strong but this is politics just politics for me humans are all the same wherever they are or whatever they believe so let me just grab my teleport machine here so I can answer you from the 3 dimension, in the meantime get ready for the falling rocks please
Quote:
I'd have agreed if you had said that Americans value the lives of Americans who were killed more, which would have been human. Think most countries are like that any way. I'd say that 9/11 was a pretty big deal, not so much for the 3,000 Americans who passed away, but all of the Americans who were left behind, particularly those living in New York. It was also a big deal that the US had been attacked by terrorists in their own country. What followed was pretty much a script that could have been written. I still wonder whether someone had created that attack for that script to happen as I still think that that terror war attack was just too masterly executed for it to have been Al Qaeda's work. It was just too expertly coordinated in the hundreds of security details that had been breached and too amazing for the US to have been as vulnerable for multiple air attacks like that.


Quote:
I'd say that 9/11 was a pretty big deal, not so much for the 3,000 Americans who passed away, but all of the Americans who were left behind, particularly those living in New York

Please be honest with yourself 9/11 was much more than just Americans and New York
9/11 was a direct attack sponsored by the Saudis against our way of living and they used the Americans for that, they attacked the western world, the free world. Or better yet the declared us war so simple as this war against us.
And they keep attacking us in a daily basis by cyber ways by economic ways whatever, they just can’t support our developments our freedoms and happiness
AND OFFCOURSE LIKE ALWAYS, THEY USED THE MONKEYS TO DO THE JOB
Quote:
Is an American life more valuable, at a fundamental level, compared to a foreigners? Would it be acceptable to go to Germany, and bomb innocent German children, if German terrorists attacked the United States? What about French citizens? What about Israeli citizens?

This will heart some reader s please forgive me
YES IT IS, IT MUST BE, AND IT SHOULD ALWAYS BE
Said so I will explain the American nation for long this is not new, sacrifices their sons their youth their more precious asset in order to maintain an world balance so we and our way of living could keep going and when you guys come here questioning that ,you are biting the hand that feeds you ,
SHAME ON YOU
Quote:
Would it be acceptable to go to Germany, and bomb innocent German children, if German terrorists attacked the United States? What about French citizens?

Unfortunately they already did that and yes it is acceptable and yes someone must do it and yes thanks good that are the Americans and no the Chinese’s like they plan to be on the future

Quote:
Don't we owe it to the families who's innocent babies we killed by dropping 2000lbs JDAMs in urban areas?

I believe you referring to the latest cases of Gaza I agree with you there are exceptions and we have to assume we don’t know everything but 2000lbs JDAMs in urban areas like they did hmm for me looks like cheap brutality but again here Americans are just the manufactures of the 2000lbs JDAMs you can argue but they can just don’t sell them when is proved they will be misused and you are right, by theway Obama care exists (just a joke) he is not stupid this time was evident they crossed the line.
Now I will teleport myself back to the 2 dimension again Very Happy



USA!!!!! USA!!!!! USA!!!!! USA!!!!!
JoryRFerrell
zaxacongrejo wrote:
This will heart some reader s please forgive me
YES IT IS, IT MUST BE, AND IT SHOULD ALWAYS BE
Said so I will explain the American nation for long this is not new, sacrifices their sons their youth their more precious asset in order to maintain an world balance so we and our way of living could keep going and when you guys come here questioning that ,you are biting the hand that feeds you ,
SHAME ON YOU


Uhm...you realize there are rascists in the military right? You realize there are plenty of people in the military who are not necessarily there to protect this country, but as a means of stable pay? This is not true of all service members obviously, but you can't really ignore the fact that these people exist.
There are people in our government who make it their job to STEAL from the general public, but it's biting the hand that feeds me to acknowledge these cases exist, even in the military? Supposedly, those in the military who fight for my freedom actually support my right to speak out against anything, including even the military. Those who don't, are not fighting for my freedom at all, and are in fact the ones I am criticizing. Any service member who ignores me and lets me speak my mind is of no concern. The one who attacks me for doing so is. It's pretty simple.

Back to the racist in the military. Weren't the racists soldiers of the 1950's fighting for your rights?
Judging from you screen name, you are of south American origin. In your case, do you think they actually fought and died for your freedom? No. They did not. They fought for "Freedom" of other whites, or the kind of "Freedom" that gets you free drinks and a pat on the back for being so patriotic. They fought for the prestige that comes with saying "I served my country" when they were really just serving themselves. Is it even possible for a racist to really fight for anyone, even other people of the racial group they feel they belong to? Aren't they fundamentally flawed in their ability to reason, and so unable to truly fight for any values? Wouldn't that mean even their supposed dedication to fighting for others of their race is just an artificial motivation....like a computer program
made to believe it's human. It can believe all it wants, but that does not make it human. Idea

Also, wouldn't any effort they made overseas in "fighting for freedom" of others just be a crock? Faked? And when they dropped bombs on people during this farce, during Operation-Pretend-To-Save-People-We-Hate, aren't they committing a crime? Wouldn't super-patriotism ("USA!!!!! USA!!!!! USA!!!!! USA!!!!!"), the kind that shoves aside all critical thinking, make it difficult to reverse this kind of issue?
deanhills
JoryRFerrell wrote:
Yea....well....conspiracies aside....(which I think you are being sarcastic about) Rolling Eyes ....
I was being serious. I haven't received a satisfactory response yet of who has been ultimately responsible for 9/11 yet. There isn't a conspiracy theory that I have bought into either, but something is just too perfect about the whole attack. Could be as simple as the US Government covering up some of the facts that would have made it credible for me, or it could be something else. There are plenty of legitimate documentaries that have been made outside the United States. I'm thinking of one that was made in Italy. That asked serious questions, based on fact, that have never been properly answered. So in absence of real and concrete facts (and COMPLETE transparency), I'm not buying into it. It may be probable, but not proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt.

JoryRFerrell wrote:
Is an American life more valuable, at a fundamental level, compared to a foreigners? Would it be acceptable to go to Germany, and bomb innocent German children, if German terrorists attacked the United States? What about French citizens? What about Israeli citizens?
OK, so can I answer with a question here. Is an American life less valuable than any of the citizens' lives of Germany, Japan, wherever. Because you seem to be swinging the pendulum in the other extreme. As far as I know every country has the right to protect its country and its citizens and since the attacks were by terrorists on the soil of the US, the US had every right to go get those terrorists. I don't agree with the invasion of Iraq. Not before or after. I never bought into the weapons of mass destruction story. I do agree with the presence of American soldiers in Afghanistan as there are other large countries like Iran, China, Russia up to mischief in the environment that could negatively impact the LIVES of not only Americans but citizens of other countries that are friendly to America, including those of Afghanistan (their citizens' lives have value too).
JoryRFerrell
deanhills wrote:
JoryRFerrell wrote:
Yea....well....conspiracies aside....(which I think you are being sarcastic about) Rolling Eyes ....
I was being serious. I haven't received a satisfactory response yet of who has been ultimately responsible for 9/11 yet. There isn't a conspiracy theory that I have bought into either, but something is just too perfect about the whole attack. Could be as simple as the US Government covering up some of the facts that would have made it credible for me, or it could be something else. There are plenty of legitimate documentaries that have been made outside the United States. I'm thinking of one that was made in Italy. That asked serious questions, based on fact, that have never been properly answered. So in absence of real and concrete facts (and COMPLETE transparency), I'm not buying into it. It may be probable, but not proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt.

JoryRFerrell wrote:
Is an American life more valuable, at a fundamental level, compared to a foreigners? Would it be acceptable to go to Germany, and bomb innocent German children, if German terrorists attacked the United States? What about French citizens? What about Israeli citizens?
OK, so can I answer with a question here. Is an American life less valuable than any of the citizens' lives of Germany, Japan, wherever. Because you seem to be swinging the pendulum in the other extreme. As far as I know every country has the right to protect its country and its citizens and since the attacks were by terrorists on the soil of the US, the US had every right to go get those terrorists. I don't agree with the invasion of Iraq. Not before or after. I never bought into the weapons of mass destruction story. I do agree with the presence of American soldiers in Afghanistan as there are other large countries like Iran, China, Russia up to mischief in the environment that could negatively impact the LIVES of not only Americans but citizens of other countries that are friendly to America, including those of Afghanistan (their citizens' lives have value too).


I'm not swinging anything to the extreme. Rolling Eyes We do and should have the right to defend ourselves. The question here, is whether or not we have the right to use excessive force which results in 10, 20,50,100X the number of casualties in the innocent population, compared to what we suffered. Do we have a right to bomb children because some extremist ADULT attacked our country? And again, wouldn't the general US public be outraged and shocked if the US government started bombing raids on European villages, killing innocent civilians, because some European terrorists attacked our country? Of course. But when it's a ME country, there is no real shock.

Put another way, what if a middle easterner who did not support terrorism, came here and performed a military attack in retaliation for us killing his innocent family, with a rocket attack, during a wedding? Would he be justified? The people in the 9/11 towers had nothing to do with the military aims of those hi-jackers, just like this mans formerly happy family had nothing to do with the terrorists who attacked us. You can't say, "Well, we have the right to murder innocent people to achieve our goals of safety and to assure people know not to screw with us.", and then turn around and expect him to not attack innocent American civilians when we murder his loved ones. And before people think, "Well they are all ****** in the head anyways, so it doesn't matter if we kill them.", isn't that a bit racist? There are plenty of middle easterners here in western countries who are more than civilized, who hate terrorists with a passion, and who even LOVE THEIR DAUGHTERS, instead of treating them as inferiors/livestock. So it would stand to reason there are the same type of people living in middle eastern countries who simply cant come live here for whatever reason, but who never-the-less, are civilized human beings with a right to life. Reverse the situation. How would we react to a strong middle eastern country, coming here for a legitimate reason (say the KKK performed a "9/11" style attack in Iran), and started bombing runs which left hundreds of thousand innocents dead/maimed? Wouldn't we fight back to kill anyone who unnecessarily murdered our family, because they were too cowardly to fight the people who needed death, on the ground? Is it wrong of me to call them cowardly? What if a grown American man in this country, nailed a child who just happened to be in between him and another grown American man pointing a gun at him? Wouldn't we consider that individual with the bomb to be a coward, when he had a gun and could have fought on foot instead of knowingly dropping the bomb with the fore-knowledge that innocent people may be harmed? Would you respect him?

During the Vietnam era, grown men murdered children. Maybe some children had bombs strapped to them. But do you acknowledge the fact that sometimes it was a matter of some racist feeling in the mood to "blow some g**ks away" because he knew he could get away with it, due to his PATRIOTIC SERVICE to defend the freedom of other like-minded Americans?

This is not extreme-swinging. It's legitimate juxtaposition and role-reversal.

Confused
deanhills
Looks like we are collateral damage then in the face of that kind of power. I can imagine those decisions to attack are always made on the basis of the greater good for all and trying to avoid as much as possible hitting citizens although I did not see much evidence of that with 9/11. The object was to shock by hitting citizens. In the case of the US Government I can only imagine the Presidents must have consulted with a great number of allies before they made their decisions. They must have argued that it was totally necessary for the greater good. The Nagasaki bomb being a great example. Kill thousands of innocent people to save millions of innocent people. And Japan had a choice. So has to share in the responsibility of that as well.

Whoever was responsible for 9/11 must have argued similarly, i.e. hitting private citizens for the greater good. In the latter case I don't know whether I blame the terrorists or the US Government more for having been asleep on the watch. The US citizens pay the US Government mega bucks in taxes to keep its borders safe. And if ever the whole Government should have been sacked, 9/11 justified it. Would have been nice if the people had taken the Government to court to account for how 9/11 happened, for we would then at least have got some of the truth that had been hidden from us.
JoryRFerrell
deanhills wrote:
Looks like we are collateral damage then in the face of that kind of power. I can imagine those decisions to attack are always made on the basis of the greater good for all and trying to avoid as much as possible hitting citizens although I did not see much evidence of that with 9/11. The object was to shock by hitting citizens. In the case of the US Government I can only imagine the Presidents must have consulted with a great number of allies before they made their decisions. They must have argued that it was totally necessary for the greater good. The Nagasaki bomb being a great example. Kill thousands of innocent people to save millions of innocent people. And Japan had a choice. So has to share in the responsibility of that as well.

Whoever was responsible for 9/11 must have argued similarly, i.e. hitting private citizens for the greater good. In the latter case I don't know whether I blame the terrorists or the US Government more for having been asleep on the watch. The US citizens pay the US Government mega bucks in taxes to keep its borders safe. And if ever the whole Government should have been sacked, 9/11 justified it. Would have been nice if the people had taken the Government to court to account for how 9/11 happened, for we would then at least have got some of the truth that had been hidden from us.


Japan was a different situation. That was formal war on a massive scale. Here we are dealing with hit-and-run guerrillas who do not necessarily represent the average person. As for the aspect of intentional murder of civilians, like I said, there are people who will murder in the military simply out of hate. They do exist. Even if a casualty occurs "unintentionally" we should still be doing more about it. It sends the wrong message when we light 8 children up on a hillside using two combat choppers, when all they are doing is herding sheep. It just doesn't win us allies. Also, I find it hard to believe our government is not trying to scare the average population into submission. When you drop 2000lbs bombs "to kill a few ******", it seems fishy. It seems like a show of force by our government: "Stand by while we kill your neighbors, or your next. That huge fireball that towered over your apartment should help you make up your mind."
JoryRFerrell
Aesop's Fables

---The Wolf and the Lamb---

Once upon a time a Wolf was lapping at a spring on a
hillside, when, looking up, what should he see but a Lamb
just beginning to drink a little lower down. ‘There’s my
supper,’ thought he, ‘if only I can find some excuse to
seize it.’ Then he called out to the Lamb, ‘How dare you
muddle the water from which I am drinking?’
‘Nay, master, nay,’ said Lambikin; ‘if the water be
muddy up there, I cannot be the cause of it, for it runs
down from you to me.’
‘Well, then,’ said the Wolf, ‘why did you call me bad
names this time last year?’
‘That cannot be,’ said the Lamb; ‘I am only six months
old.’
‘I don’t care,’ snarled the Wolf; ‘if it was not you it was
your father;’ and with that he rushed upon the poor little
Lamb and .WARRA WARRA WARRA WARRA
WARRA .ate her all up. But before she died she gasped
out .’Any excuse will serve a tyrant.’
deanhills
I love fables. That was a really good one.

Citizens elect a President, support him when he declares war on terror, then when war happens and every one is dying wisen up blaming it on the President and on the Government. Democracy without responsibility? Something doesn't sound right about this at all.

Any way, thought this fable was a good one:
Quote:
The Good Government


"WHAT a happy land you are!" said a Republican Form of Government
to a Sovereign State. "Be good enough to lie still while I walk
upon you, singing the praises of universal suffrage and descanting
upon the blessings of civil and religious liberty. In the meantime
you can relieve your feelings by cursing the one-man power and the
effete monarchies of Europe."

"My public servants have been fools and rogues from the date of
your accession to power," replied the State; "my legislative
bodies, both State and municipal, are bands of thieves; my taxes
are insupportable; my courts are corrupt; my cities are a disgrace
to civilisation; my corporations have their hands at the throats of
every private interest - all my affairs are in disorder and
criminal confusion."

"That is all very true," said the Republican Form of Government,
putting on its hobnail shoes; "but consider how I thrill you every
Fourth of July."

http://aesopfables.com/cgi/aesop1.cgi?ab&TheGoodGovernment
JoryRFerrell
deanhills wrote:
I love fables. That was a really good one.

Citizens elect a President, support him when he declares war on terror, then when war happens and every one is dying wisen up blaming it on the President and on the Government. Democracy without responsibility? Something doesn't sound right about this at all.

Any way, thought this fable was a good one:
Quote:
The Good Government


"WHAT a happy land you are!" said a Republican Form of Government
to a Sovereign State. "Be good enough to lie still while I walk
upon you, singing the praises of universal suffrage and descanting
upon the blessings of civil and religious liberty. In the meantime
you can relieve your feelings by cursing the one-man power and the
effete monarchies of Europe."

"My public servants have been fools and rogues from the date of
your accession to power," replied the State; "my legislative
bodies, both State and municipal, are bands of thieves; my taxes
are insupportable; my courts are corrupt; my cities are a disgrace
to civilisation; my corporations have their hands at the throats of
every private interest - all my affairs are in disorder and
criminal confusion."

"That is all very true," said the Republican Form of Government,
putting on its hobnail shoes; "but consider how I thrill you every
Fourth of July."

http://aesopfables.com/cgi/aesop1.cgi?ab&TheGoodGovernment


I'm def not just blaming the president. There are many people responsible, including the average citizen (albeit, to a lesser degree Rolling Eyes). The average-joe/non-politician in Germany was just as responsible for what happened as Hitler. Had an internal resistance/uprising fought against the regime, there possibly would not have been 14 million Jewish/Minority killed during their rule.

But this fit perfectly....ty for posting. Smile
deanhills
JoryRFerrell wrote:
But this fit perfectly....ty for posting. Smile
True .... very true ... Cool

Looking on the positive side the US at least has some manner of law and order in its country, particularly when compared with other countries. And it is still the country that all people like me who are living outside the US are looking up to to the extent that we are probably more knowledgeable about news from the US than news in our own countries. I'm always interested to know what's going on there. Particularly since if the US should get a cold, most of every one else in the world will be sneezing their heads off.
zaxacongrejo
I’m a little late because i haven’t been here

Quote:
I don't agree with the invasion of Iraq. Not before or after. I never bought into the weapons of mass destruction story.


But the Germans knew that the Iraq engenier "curve ball"
was lying and they inform the Americans in time , the question on Iraq was about the oil war between china and the Usa for all reasons the Chinese can never have more oil than the Usa

Quote:
Japan was a different situation. That was formal war on a massive scale


And they miss almost all of their targets the japs I meant
handfleisch
Nice idea to build that memorial but it will never happen. The USA is still in deep denial about that war (although most now know it was wrong) and just how many innocent people were slaughtered in the insane, illegal war. Heck, Americans can't even admit that Christopher Columbus was a homicidal maniac; they still honor him on Columbus Day and have big parades. England has a memorial for victims of the nuclear bombing of Japan (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19262404) but I don't think the USA has one.

What is there to say? America hates apologizing, America hates admitting it was ever wrong, at least in a big way like making a memorial that says "sorry" or "oops". But US presidents have officially apologized for various things that happened long before them. Bill Clinton and George W. Bush apologized for the internment of Japanese citizens during WW2 and Clinton also officially apologized to Hawaii for the US overthrow of their government and for slavery. President Eisenhower formally apologized to an African diplomat who was denied entry to a restaurant in the 50's during segregation.

http://www.hawaii-nation.org/publawsum.html
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/president-dwight-d-eisenhower-apologizes-to-african-diplomat)
http://www.pbs.org/childofcamp/history/clinton.html
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/09/george-w-bush-and-apology.html

zaxacongrejo
deanhills wrote:


Citizens elect a President, support him when he declares war on terror, then when war happens and every one is dying wisen up blaming it on the President and on the Government. Democracy without responsibility? Something doesn't sound right about this at all.



I believe this is the exact point of what we are discussing here

war is not a video game its a nasty thing
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