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What do you think about the European latest leaders?





zaxacongrejo
What do you think about the European latest leaders?
Do fell represented by them?
Are we still being the 99%?
Do you feel that your country can have much better representatives?
Are they taking care of us ďEuropeansĒ or of us ďcountryĒ?
Or even better they only care with them and their careers?
Will they solve these actual European crises or are them sitting ducks?
Give us your opinions

My personal opinions
no they do not represent us and they only care with their jobs their status and their careers and yes we still being the 99% plus we are so badly represented by this sitting ducks that Iím afraid once money is gone this boiling pot explodes
deanhills
zaxacongrejo wrote:

My personal opinions
no they do not represent us and they only care with their jobs their status and their careers and yes we still being the 99% plus we are so badly represented by this sitting ducks that Iím afraid once money is gone this boiling pot explodes
Totally agreed. Except those guys are so savvy they'll probably just print more money. The sad part is that the weaker members of the European Union have sold their birthright in terms of loans they've entered into, so face a great disaster if they should uncouple from the European Union. And the other way round. And yes, it also doesn't help that they aren't good at governing themselves. They probably should never have got involved with the European Union in the first place.
zaxacongrejo
Quote:
And yes, it also doesn't help that they aren't good at governing themselves. They probably should never have got involved with the European Union in the first place.


Hi Iím Portuguese by the way ,is not so simple as that
We were ready to get engage at the time but after the engagement
Our scammers "politiciansĒ start to obey their masters and we have went from producers
To buyers
We had a big fishing fleet EU paid us to scrap it
We had agriculture EU paid us to abandon it
We had livestock EU paid us to kill the animals
We had industry EU aloud china to invade us and all Europe with their products
So our industry just vanish
So now we are just buyers we import from Germany France Spain and China through Belgic
Of course this situation can only end badly so if you donít earn and you just spend money must come from somewhere right?
The problem now, is that is too late, you canít just rebuilt a country in a blink of an eyes we had lost knowledge, experts, engineers, infrastructures, etc.
And you know what, now we are exporting our engineers to Germany and France so sooner
Our scammers "politiciansĒ will start to lose control and that is what Iím most afraid of .
The Portuguese people is a peaceful people and like all peaceful people they fill and fill
And fill like a balloon hopefully that balloon doesnít just blow because if it blow
2 weeks are enough to overcome syria
deanhills
zaxacongrejo wrote:
We had a big fishing fleet EU paid us to scrap it
We had agriculture EU paid us to abandon it
We had livestock EU paid us to kill the animals
We had industry EU aloud china to invade us and all Europe with their products
So our industry just vanish
So now we are just buyers we import from Germany France Spain and China through Belgic
Wow! That is really bad. What are the solutions they are currently contemplating? Or are you now permanently hostage to the European monopolies?
zaxacongrejo
In my opinion we are done we have already crossed the no return point for quite a long time
Now is a question of time, our politicians will still telling their leis till the end trying to throw sand to the people eyes but we arenít stupid.
You see Portugal s have all conditions to be the California of Europe
Everything is already here we just need companyís headquarters here like they have in England and Holland, And why arenít them here?
Taxes and more taxes
Corruption and more corruption
Scammers al over the place
Courts doesnít work
Strikes can stop the country you see our docks are closed since September with a strike
So economy is in stand still
c'tair
zaxacongrejo wrote:
In my opinion we are done we have already crossed the no return point for quite a long time
Now is a question of time, our politicians will still telling their leis till the end trying to throw sand to the people eyes but we arenít stupid.
You see Portugal s have all conditions to be the California of Europe
Everything is already here we just need companyís headquarters here like they have in England and Holland, And why arenít them here?
Taxes and more taxes
Corruption and more corruption
Scammers al over the place
Courts doesnít work
Strikes can stop the country you see our docks are closed since September with a strike
So economy is in stand still


You paint a grim picture, however, it seems that most countries face similar problems. A quick read through wikipedia confirms that Portugal has been having difficulties for at least 10-15 years already, and this new wave of trouble has its root in the subprime mortgage crisis all the way back in the US as well as problem with bureaucracy (same in my country), corruption (same here again), and overall inefficiency.
The taxes problems as well strikes, corruption and bureaucracy all seem to stem from Portugal, not the European Union, my friend. While being part of the EU has some trade-offs like losing some sovereignty, it also has some pretty large incentives such as easing the flow of money (not products, which is sad) as well as talented people, as well as EU grants - of which many seem to support technology which doesn't surprise - fairly wealthy nations like yours and mine have economies focused on trade/services or high-tech manufacturing instead of farming, because the former is more profitable.

Remember this, the invisible hand of the market listens to no one. My country suffered greatly in the passed because its leaders tried to force the market - but that can only work short term and now we're still paying back the debts our country took in the 70's.

Enough with economics. My point is - citizens must take some responsibility for their country because as we have seen time and time again - the people in power are the same humans as us - some times greedy, some times proud, some times stupid. It's easy to push blame on corrupt politicians and bad taxes but remember, those politicians live among among as well as those people who make bad taxes - that could be your neighbor.
zaxacongrejo
Quote:
You paint a grim picture

And I could keep going on and on
Quote:
Portugal has been having difficulties for at least 10-15 years

Thatís wrong for the last 35 years the MFI as been here 3 times (3 rescues in 30 years)
Quote:
and this new wave of trouble has its root in the subprime mortgage crisis all the way back in the US

For us not only but also, but we had internal problems with some banks you probably donít know about, but we had a bank that was being used for politicians for their scams and government had to pay 5 billions and is not solved yet, 5 billions ,but anyway whereís that money now? From the credit default swaps etc? And EU will have to keep paying for that problem but my guess is that money is going directly to china this was their first strike on EU+USA
Quote:
corruption and bureaucracy all seem to stem from Portugal, not the European Union

This means that Portugal is the origin of it? If so you are wrong its everywhere even in Poland thatís why you already have in Poland some of our companies, companies that by the way
If I was you I would keep away I know them very well and since 2 years I refuse myself of even enter their shops, food shops by the way. Poland is just like we were before EU.
Join EU and you will see loll

Quote:
fairly wealthy nations like yours and mine have economies focused on trade/services or high-tech manufacturing instead of farming, because the former is more profitable.

Oh yes I know thatís speech are you already an employee from any Portuguese company at Poland?
And how the hells are we supposed to eat? And dress? Drink?
Buy houses etc.?
Buying from France and Germany Spain and China? ha-ha yes right and them they come here buy our lands to export our raw material to their factories and then send back for sale again we arenít stupid, old generations agreed with that not the new ones.
Those same old generations that own those companies that now are in Poland
Quote:
Enough with economics. My point is - citizens must take some responsibility for their country because as we have seen time and time again - the people in power are the same humans as us -
Quote:
some times greedy, some times proud, some times stupid.
It's easy to push blame on corrupt politicians and bad taxes but remember, those politicians live among among as well as those people who make bad taxes - that could be your neighbor.


Oh yes so what about Iím starting to see people eating from dumpsters?
Not the usual kind of homeless but kids with 25, 30 years old
Thatís
Quote:
because the people in power are the same humans as us

Oh yes they are, but thatís why I consider myself a bot loll
And what if those dumpsters are property from those companies now hosted at Poland?
What if those politicians keep changing cars fleet every year, and we are talking about the more expensive cars in Europe Mercedes and BMW? Not regular cars but 16000000 euros or more? Each. letís just say our Gov. as about 40 of those.


Quote:
It's easy to push blame on corrupt politicians and bad taxes but remember, those politicians live among among as well as those people who make bad taxes - that could be your neighbor.

Let me tell you something I work for 18 hours a day every day of the year .year after year and I only stay with 2 days a month for me.I almost donít have Christmas ,new yearís party is out of question and the last summer Iíve also been here all days working.
When you say so you seem to be saying oh you know you guys are lasy donít like to work
Donít like to pay taxes etc , and you do? Because if you do be my guests, do you want a house here?
Do you know that we pay 23% taxes in food? Food and water we have to pay the Gov. 23% to eat
you know that is almost impossible donít pay taxes here. We arenít Greece
Banks relay infoís to finance departments
c'tair
zaxacongrejo wrote:
Quote:
You paint a grim picture

And I could keep going on and on
Quote:
Portugal has been having difficulties for at least 10-15 years

Thatís wrong for the last 35 years the MFI as been here 3 times (3 rescues in 30 years)

That's not wrong, notice how I said "at least", meaning that it has probably had problems for more.
zaxacongrejo wrote:

Quote:
and this new wave of trouble has its root in the subprime mortgage crisis all the way back in the US

For us not only but also, but we had internal problems with some banks you probably donít know about, but we had a bank that was being used for politicians for their scams and government had to pay 5 billions and is not solved yet, 5 billions ,but anyway whereís that money now? From the credit default swaps etc? And EU will have to keep paying for that problem but my guess is that money is going directly to china this was their first strike on EU+USA

So the EU is actually helping you guys out?
zaxacongrejo wrote:

Quote:
corruption and bureaucracy all seem to stem from Portugal, not the European Union

This means that Portugal is the origin of it? If so you are wrong its everywhere even in Poland thatís why you already have in Poland some of our companies, companies that by the way
If I was you I would keep away I know them very well and since 2 years I refuse myself of even enter their shops, food shops by the way. Poland is just like we were before EU.
Join EU and you will see loll

You completely misunderstood me. Every country has corruption so some degree, reading your posts as well as a bit of wikipedia, it appears Portugal has quite a big corruption problem, just like my country has quite a big corruption problem.
Also, just so you know, Poland has been in the EU since 2004.
zaxacongrejo wrote:

Quote:
fairly wealthy nations like yours and mine have economies focused on trade/services or high-tech manufacturing instead of farming, because the former is more profitable.

Oh yes I know thatís speech are you already an employee from any Portuguese company at Poland?
And how the hells are we supposed to eat? And dress? Drink?
Buy houses etc.?
Buying from France and Germany Spain and China? ha-ha yes right and them they come here buy our lands to export our raw material to their factories and then send back for sale again we arenít stupid, old generations agreed with that not the new ones.

So what would you have Portugal do? Close it's markets - become self-sufficient?
You know that's not possible in the global market. China tried that, but it was failing horribly. It had to open it's markets and invite *gasp* capitalism in order to turn it's economy around. You eat cheaper food you can import from Poland, you sell high-tech products and services to Poland and other slightly less technology-gifted countries. That's how the world economy works.

Closing your borders to import and export would truly, truly destroy your country. Where will you get your computer chips? Where will you get your cars? The world needs Portugal and the Portugal needs the world.
zaxacongrejo wrote:

Quote:
Enough with economics. My point is - citizens must take some responsibility for their country because as we have seen time and time again - the people in power are the same humans as us -
Quote:
some times greedy, some times proud, some times stupid.
It's easy to push blame on corrupt politicians and bad taxes but remember, those politicians live among among as well as those people who make bad taxes - that could be your neighbor.


Oh yes so what about Iím starting to see people eating from dumpsters?
Not the usual kind of homeless but kids with 25, 30 years old

This happens everywhere in the world. It has happened since the dawn of civilization. You can't fault China for providing cheaper labor or Germany for providing your country with cars - you can only fault your politicians for passing bad regulations on taxes, trade, etc.
zaxacongrejo wrote:

Thatís
Quote:
because the people in power are the same humans as us

Oh yes they are, but thatís why I consider myself a bot loll
And what if those dumpsters are property from those companies now hosted at Poland?
What if those politicians keep changing cars fleet every year, and we are talking about the more expensive cars in Europe Mercedes and BMW? Not regular cars but 16000000 euros or more? Each. letís just say our Gov. as about 40 of those.

You should stop speaking about Poland since from your previous statement ("join the EU") it seems you have no clue about Poland. If your politicians are changing their cars every year - who is to blame? Only your politicians are to blame and the people that let them do that.

zaxacongrejo wrote:

Quote:
It's easy to push blame on corrupt politicians and bad taxes but remember, those politicians live among among as well as those people who make bad taxes - that could be your neighbor.

Let me tell you something I work for 18 hours a day every day of the year .year after year and I only stay with 2 days a month for me.I almost donít have Christmas ,new yearís party is out of question and the last summer Iíve also been here all days working.

Are you 13 years old? Do you think I will believe that? Who employs you? Because they are breaking hundreds of laws in forcing you to work like that, even the sweatshops in Asia do not work their slave-workers like that. Or are you just using hyperbole to put your point across? I prefer real data to hyperbole, friend.

zaxacongrejo wrote:

When you say so you seem to be saying oh you know you guys are lasy donít like to work
Donít like to pay taxes etc , and you do? Because if you do be my guests, do you want a house here?
Do you know that we pay 23% taxes in food? Food and water we have to pay the Gov. 23% to eat
you know that is almost impossible donít pay taxes here. We arenít Greece
Banks relay infoís to finance departments

Again, are you 13 years old? Im not belittling you or making fun of you but you seems to have a child's knowledge of the world.

You say you're paying 23% taxes in Portugal? That's impossible! We're also paying 23% VAT in Poland! Most of Europe is paying anywhere in between 14 and 23% VAT on every single purchase they make. Did you know that?

I never called you lazy but now it seems you are trying very hard at playing the victim. I'm kinda upset, because I wrote that post trying to be as neutral and scientific as possible, and you reply by accusing me of calling you lazy, which I never did, accusing me of saying that corruptions comes from Portugal, which I never did, and then you go on to saying things that prove you have no idea about the rest of the world - you don't even know that Poland joined the EU and you are shocked that your country pays 23% VAT on things! Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe . You'll notice that five other countries (including Poland) are ALSO paying a 23% VAT and there are seven countries who pay MORE than 23% VAT.

Please stop playing the victim card. Yes, the situation is pretty bad in many places. Yes, there is a lot of corruption and bureaucracy that is in fact plain theft. Yes, there is a lot of inequality in the world. Yes, corporations will do anything to turn a profit, including breaking human rights and cheating and stealing.

No, China, Poland, Germany is not to blame. The global market is not to blame. The EU is not to blame. The politicians are to blame. The government. The bureaucrats. The thieves. And partially - the citizens. If a politicians is breaking laws and plunging the country into debt - why aren't the citizens doing anything? They could do it in Iceland (http://www.disinfo.com/2012/07/iceland-jails-bankers-erases-citizens-debt-recovers-strongly/), why aren't the citizens of Portugal bringing justice to corrupt politicians? It's SOOOOO easy to blame everybody around you, but why not actually blame the real culprits? If a corporation is breaking laws - blow the whistle! Take it to court! This Austrian dude has succeeded in winning with Facebook and he's fighting more ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/facebook-privacy-targeted-by-austrian-law-student/2012/10/19/45a38efc-e70c-11e1-936a-b801f1abab19_story.html ).

If the situation is really so bad as you say it is, with which I don't agree because there are hundreds of millions of people MUCH worse off than you guys, then are you doing something about it? Are you bringing justice to the corrupt politicians? Are you organizing self-help groups of people to share resources? Please tell me, what are you doing about this whole mess?
zaxacongrejo
Hi lol you didnít understand me
Quote:
So the EU is actually helping you guys out?

Sure I didnít say they werenít besides we are EU, EU is not there and us here,
Or some high ranked authority

Quote:
You completely misunderstood me. Every country has corruption so some degree, reading your posts as well as a bit of wikipedia, it appears Portugal has quite a big corruption problem, just like my country has quite a big corruption problem.
Also, just so you know, Poland has been in the EU since 2004.

Thatís why I asked, you see my English is not perfect
Quote:
Join EU and you will see loll

You are right on that, and I will never know because since they now accept everyone I donít really care anymore and honestly I didnít knew it, I just donít care how many we are and ho we are anymore I belive we are now 25 right? Or 24?

Quote:
So what would you have Portugal do? Close it's markets - become self-sufficient?
You know that's not possible in the global market.

I didnít say that, and I never supported so, but we need to have our things right?
Or 100% dependency from outside is the right way?
Quote:
become self-sufficient? You know that's not possible

I think you are generalizing I didnít say in everything but I some stuff
We have to have industry ,agriculture. fishing etc or are we supposed to just buy?
And what about employment? We just forget about it?
Quote:
Closing your borders to import and export would truly, truly destroy your country.
you see you the one talking about borders is you,I donít even remember about them and I cross them 3 or 4 times a week 3 of them by the way

Quote:
This happens everywhere in the world. It has happened since the dawn of civilization. You can't fault China for providing cheaper labor or Germany for providing your country with cars - you can only fault your politicians for passing bad regulations on taxes, trade, etc.

Fault fault fault how the hell is faulting?
I prefer to buy made I Germany that china thatís for sure, are you sure about that happen everywhere? in this quantities and so regular, you see I have 15 years living in this city
Before ive saw that happen lets say 5 or 6 times in 13 years so we are talking about 6 cases in 13 years, now I just need to go outside to find 6 cases in 1 hour, please donít try to teach what the world is or what my country is or even what life is I was not getting personal again is my English

Quote:
You should stop speaking about Poland since from your previous statement ("join the EU") it seems you have no clue about Poland. If your politicians are changing their cars every year - who is to blame? Only your politicians are to blame and the people that let them do that.

you are right I donít know Poland and Iím not complaining about Poland lol
I was trying to alert you about Portuguese companyís going to your country banks/food shops
I was trying to tell you thatís they arenít so good as they want to look like just that
Quote:
Are you 13 years old? Do you think I will believe that? Who employs you? Because they are breaking hundreds of laws in forcing you to work like that, even the sweatshops in Asia do not work their slave-workers like that. Or are you just using hyperbole to put your point across? I prefer real data to hyperbole, friend.

No im not a kid and please donít get personal cause im not insulting you and calling me of kid can be watched by me like an insult you know,?i belie we are here for fun so we shouldnt get personal
Let me tell you something the kid here Owns 3 registered trademarks, and 2 companies outsourcing companies, by the way And 45% of my incoming vanishes in taxes

The other mark I have is just for fun for an hobby I have
Im my boss I do what I want if Iím working or not thatís up to me, and since im never at the office ..,law here ? just forget about it no comments


Quote:
Again, are you 13 years old? Im not belittling you or making fun of you but you seems to have a child's knowledge of the world.

You say you're paying 23% taxes in Portugal? That's impossible! We're also paying 23% VAT in Poland! Most of Europe is paying anywhere in between 14 and 23% VAT on every single purchase they make. Did you know that?

Thatís impossible lol ok believe what you want in this case you are right I was referring to vat
But let me tell you something vat is just one of them How about people that as for leaving 200 eu a month? And here are thousands, like older people and just in medicine they spent 100
Them 50 eu in power and they keep 50 for food, is this also the same in Poland and in the other countryís? what about laws now where are them?

Quote:
I never called you lazy but now it seems you are trying very hard at playing the victim. I'm kinda upset, because I wrote that post trying to be as neutral and scientific as possible, and you reply by accusing me of calling you lazy, which I never did, accusing me of saying that corruptions comes from Portugal, which I never did,

I didnít said you called me I asked if you are calling me because I was not understanding
Playing the victim? Loll again y pay 45% in taxes I believe this answers you
Quote:
Poland, Germany is not to blame
I never blamed them
Believe what you want about China I have my convictions about them
Quote:
The global market is not to blame
that one where I trade since 91?
Oh I didnít know it ÖÖÖ. Hey

Quote:
why aren't the citizens doing anything?

And thanks god they arenít ,thatís one of my big concerns if the situation gets out of control
Quote:
why aren't the citizens of Portugal bringing justice to corrupt politicians?

I will not act like you insulting , but let me say something the world itís a luitle more complex than just
Quote:
bringing justice to corrupt politicians

Iceland is not an example for nothing sorry
Give me examples like france , germny, England,
not ice land and thir subprime stuff

Quote:
If the situation is really so bad as you say it is, with which I don't agree because there are hundreds of millions of people MUCH worse off than you guys, then are you doing something about it? Are you bringing justice to the corrupt politicians? Are you organizing self-help groups of people to share resources? Please tell me, what are you doing about this whole mess?

I do it, and as I said before, 18 hours a day ,again, you know companies have employees got it?
And they have to be paid right, or they will enter some nasty statistics like 30%of unemployment why didnít you talked about that?
Again I was not trying to offend or attack you maybe sometimes what I write is not the exact what I want to say and them people can think that but Iím here for fun
fuzzkaizer
wow! such a hot discussion!
the european situation indeed licenses a lot of people to freak out. we are on the dawn of a real bunga-bunga aera of politics. where is the long tradition of democracy in europe? as if it never existed! the europeans, the way they think, discuss and vote, might get just the leaders they deserve, not more or less...
zaxacongrejo
Yes you are right real bunga bunga
Just watch this

teno
Wow! She is a good dancer! Didn't know that. LOL

No, honestly. Of course, there isn't just ONE reason behind economic downfalls. The greek were seduced by all the money that flooded their country once they joined the EU. They totally f** up. Corruption everywhere. Money vanishing left and right in dubious channels, etc. But that is just part of the story, and surely isnt' the major part. But Germans LOVE that story and like to think there isn't more to it. See, the U.S. or Japan are far far worse in terms of fiscal balance than Greece.

Of course there is more to it. It's a complex system and German politics actually plays a huge role in Portugal, Italy and Greece not doing good. Merkel was and still is doing a horrible job by further letting down southern countries.

Goldman Sachs plays a major role too. Deutsche Bank plays a major role. What we see in Europe is bank crisis, part two. But they renamed it: crisis of dept. But actually it wasn't the fault of Portugal, or Spain, or Italy, not even Greek's.

It is terrible politics - better call it 'criminal politics' by Goldman Sachs, Deutsche Bank, European Commission and last not least, political parties who still think, more of false medicine that didn't work in the first place (actually caused all this) will do the job.

Elites won't solve this. The people will.
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