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islam is...





gonzo
.. well you decide

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/06/iran_man_senten.php

Quote:
Here's an example of Islamic law that should serve as a warning to the West; ignoring the Islamic threat and it's agenda is certain to result in disasterous societal and cultural changes that few in the West can fathom. But one need only to look at Iran to see how base and archaec life under Islamic law would be like.

Iran’s State Supreme Court has upheld a sentence for a young man’s eyes to be gouged out and sprayed with acid, for blinding another man at the age of 16 some 12 years ago.



ikes!!!

Rolling Eyes
earthchild
Gonzo is grouping all muslims together.

Hitler was supposedly Christian right... well It's like grouping Hitler together with all other christians.

Does this qualify as Flaming? I'm just rying to get a clear understanding of the rules.
SunburnedCactus
You should really have put a disclaimer on that link. Not one for the fainted-hearted.

Gotta love a country where you can be shot for dancing in the street...
tidruG
No, I don't really think it's flaming. I do believe there was another thread a long time ago about a woman who was raped by her father-in-law that kinda criticized Muslim law.

I'll keep this thread open.
gonzo
earthchild wrote:

Hitler was supposedly Christian right...


no he was supposedly jewish by birthright. he was also not supposedly a pink flying monkey or child of Pan. And most of us know who that is really, so I'm sure you don't want to go there now.


Quote:
Does this qualify as Flaming? .


no. This is another frightening example of (sharia) muslim law. Muslimism is fair game especially this STATE SANCTIONED ACT OF BARBARISM


This wasn't one wacko muslim with a scalpel in a back alley. This was a "court" upheld, allegedly "just" practice.

hello? did you read the article? or were you too busy hacking together a logically flawed analogy?
earthchild
I'll certainly give you the fact that acts of barbarism shouldn't be tolerated. It's just important to recognize that not all muslims are the same. believe it or not there are many muslims who dislike terrorism and human rights abuses as much as you do.

When you title your post as "Islam is" and then condemn an action taken in an Islamic state - you are certainly grouping a whole bunch (millions of people) together under your condemnation.

regarding flaming - I'm just trying to get a sense of the rules. (it isn't personal)
nik
arabian (most of them ) like animals they act like idiots their laws is hmmm i've seen better...

i was in hotel and so was arabian family at first they get in the pool with everything on (sure whay to clean after if you can get the clothes clean in the pool) also they used to drink at the pool and they must think that it's fun to throw the glass inside the water. and when i was gowing to my room one of their kids wanted to.... well let's just say thet he wasent' able to open the door so he did it on it....YACK... and much more...

next time i go to vacation i ask if there was any arabian lately...
igor123d
I have no doubt that the incident and ruling that the author of the topic described represents a form of cruel and inhuman punishment. What I do not understand, however, is how the author wishes to denounce Islam based on this case. Although the Islamic law called the Shar'ia has numerous archaic forms of punishment, so does the Bible and the Torah. More importantly, the decision was handed down by an Iranian court and is not based on religious motives, but rather is an extension of the totalitarian regime that controls the country.
earthchild
well put igor
tidruG
nik wrote:
arabian (most of them ) like animals they act like idiots their laws is hmmm i've seen better...

i was in hotel and so was arabian family at first they get in the pool with everything on (sure whay to clean after if you can get the clothes clean in the pool) also they used to drink at the pool and they must think that it's fun to throw the glass inside the water. and when i was gowing to my room one of their kids wanted to.... well let's just say thet he wasent' able to open the door so he did it on it....YACK... and much more...

next time i go to vacation i ask if there was any arabian lately...

I believe this is yet another case of generalizing opinions based on the actions of one small group of individuals.
Honestly, if such generalizations were justified, the whole world would believe that America is immoral based on "Sex And The City"
NuniPio
wold you really base your views on islam according to that, i mean im muslim and im pretty sure if i did something like that no1 would rip my eyes out. there are just some people who go to extremes, those laws if they were real, are from the past and today things have changed and its obviously not right to do something that severe for a small crime. people just have to learn to move on
Deji
gonzo: can you get sources from actual news sites please...

not anti-islam propaganda please.

thanks.
ocalhoun
Peacefull Muslims don't follow the true teachings of Islam.
Islam is not a peacefull or tolerant religeon.
Islamic idea of evangelisim: Kill the infedels.
Bondings
ocalhoun wrote:
Peacefull Muslims don't follow the true teachings of Islam.
Islam is not a peacefull or tolerant religeon.
Islamic idea of evangelisim: Kill the infedels.

I never saw a relegion that is completely peacefull and tolerant.

There is no possible way you can determine what the true teachings of a religion are. Just an example, if you are a 'true' Christian, do you need to believe in creationism?
boho999
The only peacful religion I know of is Buddism.
Dread Lord Chaos
wow, its quite amazing what kind of ignorance is randomly spewed sometimes.

A totalitarian regime has an inhumane punishment...nothing new in this world, nor original to Islam. Countless cultures have had inhumane laws....such as slavery in the United States. The Catholic Church has a history of violence longer then most countries' military records. Pope Innocent III (or maybe the second) was well-known for his absolutely inhumane tortures of criminals who did far less then blinding a man.

All I'm saying is stop spewing hate towards a particular group, it shows ignorance and the author of this topic did essentially nothing to back up his view....or at least nothing worth mention. Please don't mak stereotypical generalizations, it makes the wolrd a much better place...
Devil
tghe Topic starter really took everyone for a spin here ,

first of all no one has the right to say bad things about other religions ,

there can be loop holes in islamic laws , but that doesnt make all muslims bad ,

second muslim laws are the laws which were given to them from moses ,

we christains just dont practice that since we beleave in jesus , and the muslims dont ,

budha Was a hindu , he dint beleave in any religion ,
nik
from what i know Buddists belive in everything...

arabian have another way of life. just' watch the news see the streets the way they look and what they wear it's not europian nor american. maybe what they do and how they act is ok to them, not to me...
Ganesheeva
nik the E.T messiah said this :
Quote:
from what i know Buddists belive in everything...


except the bad orthography (learn speak & spell ur own language dude), thereis a more significative mistake , for information, Buddhists may believe in everything... except in God ...
Buddhism is not a religion, but a philosophy, a spiritual^path, a way of life...They are against any form of religion, thinking it locks the soul up...

In this it join Coran and muslims in a way, because their sacred book is a code of living, like ur penal code and juridic laws, those that allows u bomb innocent childrens in foreign countries and steal the blood of a land like a dirt vampire '(lana lang?)

But sure some old shaped actions could be modernized, it just needs a bit of education...(like u maybe?)

Quote:
the streets the way they look and what they wear it's not europian nor american. maybe what they do and how they act is ok to them, not to me...


So, if u see buddhists monks dressed like guantanamo prisoners (yea,same color lol), u will complain and tell them to dress like everybody ?
Conformism is not good at high rates...

And the streets... haha, u wouldn't sure be welcome in many hoods with such a way of ^mind young bway Not talking
din4
Islam is...
Flower Powder
Yes, I agree with Gonzo, extreme muslim law is totally medieval and can really shock in 2005. Islam is not a progressist religion.... Still it looks like all monotheist religions have the same problem. They are very exclusive and not tolerant at all. The 3 of them are involved in unstoppable wars for power... Can we still call them religions..I wonder. If you see what Bagdad looks like now... What will you say about puritan christians ?.. They have just destroyed one of the oldest human heritage... Hope this will stop... If only everyone was turning into a budhist......
gonzo
Bondings wrote:
ocalhoun wrote:
Peacefull Muslims don't follow the true teachings of Islam.
Islam is not a peacefull or tolerant religeon.
Islamic idea of evangelisim: Kill the infedels.

I never saw a relegion that is completely peacefull and tolerant.

There is no possible way you can determine what the true teachings of a religion are.


Are you really sure you want to play the "I cannot know anything" game?

Quote:
if you are a 'true' Christian, do you need to believe in creationism?


By true do you mean Catholic? If so the answer is no. As the splinter churchers are rooted in the grave error of individualism, well, that takes us back to the game I advise you not to start.

Wink


earthchild wrote:
I'll certainly give you the fact that acts of barbarism shouldn't be tolerated


Great, and how do you reconcile that with Sharia law, per se?


Quote:
not all muslims are the same


It's also important to avoid EQUIVOCATION. What characteristics do all muslims share? It cannot be nothing BY DEFINITION.


Quote:
"Islam is" and then condemn an action taken in an Islamic state - you are certainly grouping a whole bunch (millions of people) together under your condemnation.


Yes, I am. Do you also not understand the role of the state and how the state gets its power?


boho999 wrote:
The only peacful religion I know of is Buddism.


Then you tempt me to say "then you don't know much". Buddhism is NOT a religion.

Dread Lord Chaos wrote:
wThe Catholic Church has a history of violence longer then most countries' military records


Speaking of not backing up assertions... wow


Dread Lord Chaos wrote:
All I'm saying is stop spewing hate towards a particular group


:sigh: Exactly what do you think the word "hate" means?

Are you really trying to say "stop saying things that other people woudln't agree with"? How many people? Just one person? What if I don't agree with you, O, prelate? Ought you then remain silent?


Quote:
the author of this topic did essentially nothing to back up his view


Does the concept "self evident" similarly escape you?

Flower Powder wrote:
Y exclusive and not tolerant at all.


I am very intolerant of evil. Why aren't you?

(note to the especially dim: I did not just assert Muslims are evil.)


Blue is an exclusive color. It marginalizes red, orange, helioptrope. Maybe we should quit using it.. and ban looking at the sky.

DEFINITIONS form limitations, this 'exclusivity' that you irrationally fear.

why?


...


Islam is what it is. What's wrong ith looking at it??
kokziwen
boho999 wrote:
The only peacful religion I know of is Buddism.

Buddism is a peaceful religion. The true Buddism encourage vegetarian because Buddism not allow killing.
druidbloke
If you read the kuran you'd see what islam isnt, and it isnt suicide bombers or terrorists, in fact that would probably be as sinful as it is to christians, but then im a pagan so I wont say anymore Razz Just like christianity at various times through its life, it's just being used has a tool to carry out propaganda and control people but there are more ordinary muslims who would never have anything to do with terrorism or eye gouging, iran may have some way to go but remember we were still hanging people not long ago at all.
geeren
nik wrote:
arabian (most of them ) like animals they act like idiots their laws is hmmm i've seen better...

i was in hotel and so was arabian family at first they get in the pool with everything on (sure whay to clean after if you can get the clothes clean in the pool) also they used to drink at the pool and they must think that it's fun to throw the glass inside the water. and when i was gowing to my room one of their kids wanted to.... well let's just say thet he wasent' able to open the door so he did it on it....YACK... and much more...

next time i go to vacation i ask if there was any arabian lately...


every one has his one culture. You don't think it's normal, but hey are thinking that maybe also about you.

Have respect
geeren
nik wrote:
from what i know Buddists belive in everything...

arabian have another way of life. just' watch the news see the streets the way they look and what they wear it's not europian nor american. maybe what they do and how they act is ok to them, not to me...


So now ju must understand that every one is different. I am a muslim, but i am not an arab you know, i have an other culture, i am an amazigh (Berber) and the most of them whear western clothes, but some of them not.

Do you want to walk in the desert with the clothes you now weare

and that's the same with the north and southpole, sometimes you can't

think about that
geeren
Flower Powder wrote:
Yes, I agree with Gonzo, extreme muslim law is totally medieval and can really shock in 2005. Islam is not a progressist religion.... Still it looks like all monotheist religions have the same problem. They are very exclusive and not tolerant at all. The 3 of them are involved in unstoppable wars for power... Can we still call them religions..I wonder. If you see what Bagdad looks like now... What will you say about puritan christians ?.. They have just destroyed one of the oldest human heritage... Hope this will stop... If only everyone was turning into a budhist......


Why ?????

Because you think that that wil be good.
Read first the Qoraan and then you can give youre opinion, and that goes also about the bibel and the tenach
shr3dd
I agree with the theory of an eye for an eye. I, however, disagree with the barbaric means to carry out the sentance. Most muslims are barbaric. By barbaric I don't mean violent. Compared to western civilization, eastern muclims (what I meant when I said "most") are more primitive and barbaric.
S3nd K3ys
geeren wrote:

Read first the Qoraan and then you can give youre opinion



Qur’an 9.29 wrote:
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Shocked Shocked Shocked
Bondings
Judges 16 wrote:
16:26And Samson said unto the lad that held him by the hand, Suffer me that I may feel the pillars whereupon the house standeth, that I may lean upon them.

16:27Now the house was full of men and women; and all the lords of the Philistines were there; and there were upon the roof about three thousand men and women, that beheld while Samson made sport.

16:28And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.

16:29And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left.

16:30And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

So in this God-approved act, Samson, the suicide terrorist, killed 3000 men and women. Ok, he didn't use a plane, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still more than the 2.749 people killed in New York.
SunburnedCactus
And there's plenty more where that came from.

Classic Old Testament!
shr3dd
No one ever said Islam is the only religion that has ever done anything of that nature. The majority of religious terrorists today happen to be muslim. That's the main point.
wolfhnd
I have read the Koran and lets just say I'm not impressed. If it was the only religion out there it would have to do but Buddhism, New Testament Christianity stripped of it's historical baggage, Shinto, and animist beliefs to name a few are more philosophically sound. I really don't care to argue the point but theology without sound philosophy is not likely to produce an highly organized and progressive society.

This is just my opinion but the fact that I can express it here without fear and would face severe penalties for the same post in the only working Islamic theocracy, Iran, should make you wonder if being politically correct is politically naive.
Dorsk82
I can't believe this topic is even under debate. While the acts of Iran as a fundamentalist theocracy may be abhorrent, condemning Islam for said acts is nothing short of blind naivety.

Is Christianity to be condemned for the crusades? Judaism for the actions of Israel and the slaughter of Palestinian men, women and children? Hinduism or Buddhism for India's actions in Kashmere or the ongoing civil war in Sri Lanka?

I would hope that your answer to these questions would be no!

What is at fault here is not the religions themselves but quite simply extreme fundamentalism wherever it is practiced and no matter what religious philosophy it follows.

Think about that and all the other very real atrocities committed above by fundamentalists from all walks of faith, philosophy and religion before you are so quick to condemn Islam and its many followers.

Thanks... Smile
Dorsk82
PS I am not Islamic or a member of any of the aforementioned religions. Just trying to bring some reality and tolerance to this debate.
AgenthHero
One of the reason why people hate islam is because of the media. The Media sometimes gives a spin on the meaning and the religion. Which means that you should research Islam a little more deeper.
Valleyman
I'd like to point out a few problems with gonzo's idea. First, as many others have already pointed out you can not apply to all muslims the principles/laws of one absurd radical regime.

gonzo wrote:
Quote:
"Islam is" and then condemn an action taken in an Islamic state - you are certainly grouping a whole bunch (millions of people) together under your condemnation.


Yes, I am. Do you also not understand the role of the state and how the state gets its power?


The government in Iran is a revolutionary one, a reaction to the dictator that the US installed there in the 50s. The revolution of 1979 eventually led to this government that we see now. Though it may have had majority support of the population of Iran at the time of the uprising I see no reason to believe it is still so. Saying that this is Islam is like saying that being French involves executing all of those that disagree with you, as the government of Maximilien Robespierre did during the French Revolution. I'm sure we all can agree that that would be silly, and so is this.

Final point: Did you know that way back in about 632 AD the Muslim State (under the "Rightly Guided Caliphs"-those closest to Muhammad) was far more tolerant than the Catholic Church ever was? Back in about 632 AD religious tolerance in the Muslim State was great. Despite being a theocracy there was little discrimination; Christians and Jews (people of the book) played an important part in the government. In addition the Qu'ran forbids forced conversion.

The Catholic Church was not so tolerant, I'm sure we all know of the Crusades.

So perhaps there are some Muslims who follow Islam, as it was originally constructed and are thus tolerant of others.
wolfhnd
Point A: If you knew anything about history you would know that the Crusades may appear to be religious in nature they were in fact part of an attempt to unify the west against the very real threat that the Islamic forces would conquer all of Western Europe.

Point B: Why is it that some people think they can justify the existence of the ignorant superstitions in one culture "Islamic" by comparing them to the ignorant superstitions of another "Catholicism".
Isopeth
Islam is a religion with order Cristian or Budist Etc
Islam is culture
Islam is peace
Islan not terrorist

By: Spanish Ciudadane
wolfhnd
Islam is just another superstitious collection of mumbo jumbo. I don't feel obligated to admire that superstition anymore than any other just because it may offend someone. If you want 100 virgins you better get them here on earth because that is the only place you are going to find them.

The only purpose that kind of religion serves is to divide people.

In the words of John Lenon "Imagine all the people living life as one". No Heaven no Hell.
Valleyman
wolfhnd wrote:
Point A: If you knew anything about history you would know that the Crusades may appear to be religious in nature they were in fact part of an attempt to unify the west against the very real threat that the Islamic forces would conquer all of Western Europe.


Ah yes, but the stated reason was religion. Perhaps that has something in common with what happened here?

wolfhnd wrote:
Point B: Why is it that some people think they can justify the existence of the ignorant superstitions in one culture "Islamic" by comparing them to the ignorant superstitions of another "Catholicism".


For the reason that a number of people think the ignorant superstitions of Catholicisim are valid.
Dorsk82
wolfhnd wrote:
In the words of John Lenon "Imagine all the people living life as one". No Heaven no Hell.


While I think we can all agree that John Lenon's words represent a terrific ideal, it is not an expression of the need to abolish and or condemn certain religions. Peaceful and rational Muslims have demonstrated that they can and will live alongside other religions just as well as peaceful and rational Christians, Buddhists, Jews or what have you.

The spirit of Lenon's words are peace and tolerance not conformity or derisive condemnation.
wolfhnd
You were not listening "no religion too" I think your going to find that there has developed an intolerance amonst many people for religion in general.
lib
wolfhnd wrote:
Islam is just another superstitious collection of mumbo jumbo. I don't feel obligated to admire that superstition anymore than any other just because it may offend someone.

And perhaps you ought to know that Christianity is nothing but a mass of confusion, and overzealous missionaries determined to make everyone believe that the only way to get to Heaven is to believe in Christ:
link
And
Quote:
Genesis 1:3-5
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
=========
God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them?

... and I don't feel obligated to not bring this point up just because someone wrote
Quote:
Why is it that some people think they can justify the existence of the ignorant superstitions in one culture "Islamic" by comparing them to the ignorant superstitions of another "Catholicism".

The bottom line is that just about every religion is flawed. The only way we can all live in peace is to have either no religions or to have just one religion followed by everyone on Earth. Since neither scenario is practically possible, let's just stop bitching about other religions and follow the "live and let live" policy.

Let me predict... you're going to say that the radical Islamists should learn the "live and let live" policy first, because they're the terrorists. I agree, however, let's not generalize the whole of Islam based on this minority of Muslims.
wolfhnd wrote:
You were not listening "no religion too" I think your going to find that there has developed an intolerance amonst many people for religion in general.

This is probably primarily because of everyone forcing their religion on people, and everyone forcing others to believe that their religion is supreme. ****** it, I said it before, I'll say it again... live and let live
AgenthHero
"live and let live" is a saying of athiesm. and Athiest is not the corret way to go because they believe that there is no god. Believing that is entirely wrong because there is a god. A god that made this universe, a god that created you.

AND MUSLIMS ARENT TERRORISTS.

Why are the americans invading OUR countries???
wolfhnd
Why did Muslims invade Spain in 711?
wolfhnd
I decided to add to the list Smile

Why did the Muslims invade Jerusalem in 638 and steal it from the Christians?

Why did the Muslims destroy the great civilivation of Persia in 644?

Why did the Muslims destroy the great Byzantine civilization in 1453?

But mostly why do you feel the need to support such a blood thirsty religion?
Dorsk82
wolfhnd wrote:
I decided to add to the list Smile

Why did the Muslims invade Jerusalem in 638 and steal it from the Christians?

Why did the Muslims destroy the great civilivation of Persia in 644?

Why did the Muslims destroy the great Byzantine civilization in 1453?

But mostly why do you feel the need to support such a blood thirsty religion?


I am not supporting the actions of radical fundamentalist Muslims but instead trying to ask you to see the difference between the radicals within a religion and the religion itself or the reasonable individuals who practice it.

As I mentioned in a previous post fundamentalists and radicals in every religion throughout history have been involved in horrible atrocities and conflicts. Moreover these conflicts are not just limited to religious fundamentalists but other radicals have instigated them as well due to their extreme beliefs. A classic (and cliched) example would have to be the Nazis. Take a destitute German populace and pair them with an extremely radical man with a vision, and a terrific propoganda machine and finally give them all a common enemy to blame their current problems on and what do you get? World War II! Why? Not because of religion per se but because of extreme beliefs and radical ideals.

As a previous poster said "live and let live" is the only course to real peace. While some actions by Muslim states must be condemned, please show some tolerance and understanding for other Muslims who are also struggling against the very same fundamentalists you hate and who merely want to practice their own chosen beliefs in private and in peace.
wolfhnd
The first few civilizations were destroyed by the founder of the religion himself. Now ask yourself what other religion was founded by a man who was personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people in wars design to spread their teachings.

It is estimated that 10,000,000 people died between the 7th and 17th centuries as a direct result of Islamic wars of conquest.

It is just history I feel no need to white wash it the way modern Muslim are like to do.
wolfhnd
Just to be fair.

Voltaire [Francois-Marie Arouet] (1694 - 1778): "Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world."
AgenthHero
Wolfhnd mann, you r basically saying that every religion is bloody. which one are you from?
wolfhnd
Catholic
lib
AgenthHero wrote:
"live and let live" is a saying of athiesm. and Athiest is not the corret way to go because they believe that there is no god. Believing that is entirely wrong because there is a god. A god that made this universe, a god that created you.

Come again...?
"Live and let live" is a saying of atheism? What in the world led you to believe that? I believe in God with all my heart. I believe that God does exist, I believe that God is the final judge of my actions on this world, and most importantly, I believe that God wants us to live in peace, and not kill each other... which is basically what live and let live means.

And as for all this about Islam being an all-devouring bloodthirsty religion... well, what about Christianity? I don't have anything against the religion, but everywhere you look is a missionary telling you that the only way to get to Heaven is to believe in Christ or the Holy Spirit.
Want examples...
Spain invades the Aztec culture in 1521.
Here's some interesting stuff from wikipedia:
Quote:
An anonymous Aztec poet wrote:

How can we save our homes, my people
The Aztecs are deserting the city
The city is in flames and all
is darkness and destruction
Weep my people
Know that with these disasters
We have lost the Mexican nation
The water has turned bitter
Our food is bitter
These are the acts of the Giver of Life.

– From the Informantes Anónimos de Tlatelolco, compiled in 1521.

Quote:
...Eventually, the Indians were not only forbidden to learn of their cultures, but also were forbidden to learn to read and write in Spanish, and, under the law, they had the status of minors....

And though this is long, I couldn't resist posting it:
Quote:
A record survives of a dialogue between the last tlatimine or wise men, and the missionaries, where the Aztec try to defend their ways, this reflects the sadness of their defeat:

Lords, respected lords: You have traveled much to get to this land.
Here in front of you,
we contemplate you, we ignorant people...
And now, what are we going to tell you?
What is what we must address to your ears?
Are we something indeed?
We are just vulgar people...
By means of a translator we will answer,
we will return the breath and the word
about the lord of the near and far. (ometeotl /omecihuatl)
It's by his word, that we risk ourselves,
that we put ourselves in danger...
Maybe this is our loss,
maybe is our destruction,
where are we going to be taken?
Where should we go?
We are vulgar people
we are perishable, we are mortal.
Let us die, let us perish,
since our gods are dead.
But there should be peace on your
hearts and your body,
Milords!
we will break a little,
we will show a little,
the secret, the ark of the lord, our God
You said
that we did not know
about the lord of the near and far,
about of one who created earth and sky.
you said
That our gods are not true.
This is a new word,
this that you have spoken.
This is why we are disturbed,
this is why we are annoyed.
Because our ancestors,
the ones that had been,
the ones that had lived on this earth,
they did not speak like that.
They give us the ways of life,
they take by true,
they give cult,
they honored the gods......

they teach us the ways of the cult,
all the ways to honor the gods.
That way we put the mouth on earth,
by them we bleed us,
we accomplished our votes,
we burn copal
and offered sacrifice.
(....)

We know to whom we owe life.
To whom we owe birth,
to whom we owe to be beget
to whom we owe to grow,
and how to invoke...
(....)

Hear milords
do not harm your people.
Do not let disgrace to be carried,
to let it perish...
tranquil, and friendly,
take this account, milords,
of what is needed.
(....)

Here are the ones who rule us,
the ones that take us,
the ones that have the world in charge.
Is it not enough that we are defeated?
that we are taken away?
that we are taken from our rulers?
If in this place we are to stand,
we will be prisoners.
So Do with us what you want,
This is what we have spoken,
what we answered,
to your breath,
to your word,

oh lords!

And don't tell me you've never heard of Christian Terrorists
By the way, the Ku Klux Klan was a racist Protestant Christian organization. Should I be led to believe that all Christians are racist and seek nothing but the subjugation of all other religions?

Yet again, let me tell you... I have nothing against religion nor against any religion in particular. However, I'm very passionate about the "live and let live" ideal, which I firmly believe is one of the only, (if not the only) way to achieve peace, as far as religion is concerned.
GDG
Quote:
By DEVIL:
second muslim laws are the laws which were given to them from moses ,


My question is where is your proof that our religion's laws are based/given from Moses??? I am a Muslim, and our Prophet is Prophet Muhammad (SAW = P.B.U.H), not Prophet Musa (AS = P.B.U.H).
Also our teachings were not exactly made by the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), they were actually made by GOD, my God and Islam's God!!!!

Now I would like to tell you a bit about Shari'a Law. Shari'a means holy law, basically what i told you that it came from God. So any law that we use to deal punishment or any other form of justice is really in a way God's desicion. We we're given these Laws by God, we didn't make them!!!

NUNIPIO, you made an earlier post that you we're Muslim. You also said that the Sharia's laws are of the past, where is your proof of that. These laws are not the past they are to be used even today but sadly most of them aren't implemented in the courts and governments of Muslim countries these days!!!!

In conclusion, i would like to say that i disagree with terrorism. Whether it's being done by Muslims or America or even Canada. But what they did to that man is not something wrong, as i see it he deserves it, i mean he made a person blind then why not get the same punishment!

Before i leave this thread for now, i have a question. When someone kills another person in America, he is executed automatically!!! Why then do you not talk about the punishments of the Americans???
mcduck2002
earthchild wrote:
Gonzo is grouping all muslims together.

Hitler was supposedly Christian right... well It's like grouping Hitler together with all other christians.

Does this qualify as Flaming? I'm just rying to get a clear understanding of the rules.


just for you to know... a bit of history. he liked Vagner "masterpieces" just because they were about the german tribes stories and the paganism calture the germans had long before christianity.

as for the Islam.... you should realy look into what the Koran says about the non-Islam people. read and then decide.
Valleyman
wolfhnd wrote:
Why did Muslims invade Spain in 711?

Why did the Muslims invade Jerusalem in 638 and steal it from the Christians?

Why did the Muslims destroy the great civilivation of Persia in 644?

Why did the Muslims destroy the great Byzantine civilization in 1453?

But mostly why do you feel the need to support such a blood thirsty religion?


Why did the Byzantines try to retake the former Roman empire?
Why did the Romans conquer the surrounding territories?
Why did Ghengis Khan create the largest contigous kingdom in history?

Perhaps the answer to all of these is "for the benefit of the nation" (or the psychotic ramblings of whatever ruler they had at the time)?

As to the last question, I don't find the need to support any religion, bloodthirsty or not. What I do feel the need to do is to defend the people who practice the religion from being stereotyped along unfair lines.

wolfhnd wrote:
The first few civilizations were destroyed by the founder of the religion himself. Now ask yourself what other religion was founded by a man who was personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people in wars design to spread their teachings.

It is estimated that 10,000,000 people died between the 7th and 17th centuries as a direct result of Islamic wars of conquest.

It is just history I feel no need to white wash it the way modern Muslim are like to do.


Well, as long as we're citing history, in his Secret History Procopius says that the Byzantine Emperor Justinian killed "trillions of people". Now I know as well as you do that this figure is incorrect, but I do provide it to illustrate a point: people die in wars. Not to mention the fact that Justinian could have, in his reign, killed enough people to be mistaken for a trillion, whereas in 1000 years the Muslim Empire only reached 10 million is rather interesting. Even if you don't want to take that as a valid point we can look at the numbers of people killed in the Crusades or in the Hundred Years war or in any number of other wars and the point will still stand.
IslamicThinker
My Dear and respected fellow human beings:
Whether you are for or against what I have written, I cant verbally express my appreciation towards you taking the time to read and respond to me with any questions or concerns! If I may only ask you to open your minds and try to look upon my article with a broad mind !I sincerly thank you and appreciate your feedback and questions!!!!!!
Concept of Peace in Islam
"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace" (The Quran 8:61)

The Word "Islam"
The "root" of the word "Islam" in Arabic is SALAMA which is the origin of the words Peace & / or Submission, a submission to God and peace to all humanity. It is, thus, no wonder why the salutation in Islam is: "Al-Salamu Alaikum or "Peace be upon to You."

In this regard, prophet Mohammad ordered his fellow Muslims to salute others Muslims or non-Muslims with peace when he said: "Peace Before Speech"

It is a Rule in Islam that during war time, an enemy warrior who pronounces the word peace is totally immune.

No Coercion In Islam
Unlike many other religions where people were offered either conversion and peace or death, Islam came with the just word of our creator. In Quran 2:256; God said "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error..." There are many other verses in the Quran that deals with the nature of spreading God's message. One of my favorites which I keep quoting is Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's Will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! Wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" These verses and many others show how much emphasis Islam places on the mind of people, Muslims or non-Muslims.

Justice & Fairness to Non-Muslims
In This regard, Muslims are governed by the rules that the relationship with non-Muslims should be based on justice, mutual respect, cooperation, and communication. The Quran is very explicit about the justice part of the relationship when God stated in Verse 60:08 "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just."

The Ultimate Justice
Another prominent example that I keep referring to concerning the just treatment of Islam to non-Muslims; is the fact that while a husband is allowed to ask his Muslim wife not to go to the Mosque; he has no right to ask his wife to go to Church or Synagogue if it happens that the wife is a Christian or a Jew.

Peace and Jihad
The root of the word Jihad is Jahada which means "spent the energy". The following need some clarification concerning the concept of Jihad in Islam:


The acts of Jihad are limitless in Islam. Work, going to school, or any good dead is considereed an act of jihad!

Defending your family, money, land, country...etc. by all means including the armed means are also considered Jihad
Misrepresentation of Anti-Islam
Anti-Muslims resort to a deceitful misrepresentation when they misquote the Quranic verses of the second chapter. They claim that Quran promoted killing the infidels wherever you find them. Indeed, this is true but only if the infidels attack Muslims. Here are the verses complete:
[b]
Quran 2:190-193.


Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.
Contemporary Counterpart of Jihad
The United Nation's Charter does explicitly discuss the right of the occupied people to resist their occupiers. The legitimacy of fighting aggression by means of Jihad or armed struggle is extended not only from the Islamic teachings but also from the international law and UN Charter.

Morality & Ethics of Jihad
The legitimacy of annihilating the oppressive forces and military occupation is not limited to Islam or international law and UN Charter. In fact, it is very much morally and ethically unacceptable to people with minimum level of dignity and self respect to accept the life of slaves under the military machine rule of alien invaders. Who amongst the reader is willing to live in political and ideological slavery? Who is willing to give up his home for a Russian, an African, an American, or a Chinese? Who is willing to accept what courses are enforced on you in your school? And finally; who is willing to live under the Civil Detention Law; that Hitler used to massacre Jews; and, ironically, Jews are using the same law to massacre, deport, jail, and displace more than 5 million Palestinians? If you are willing; I, and many others are not. And this is just a tiny part of the ethics behind being enslaved to aliens.

I have seen some great feelings of hostility on this forum and hope that mankind as a whole will belessed in the sense of getting along without force, killings,fights, and all the moden ways of pain!
I would like to end this article to say a little about myself. I am a muslim by the name of Mohamed I love Islam which is not only my religion but also my way of life , as i have grown to know it as the the right path and the most mercifull religion. I also beleive that ther will be final day when every human according to their deeds will be rewarded accordingly!

MAY ALLAH BLESS US ALL AND HELP US TO LIVE TOGETHER IN GREAT PEACE,LOVE, AND HARMONY!
GDG
nik wrote:
arabian (most of them ) like animals they act like idiots their laws is hmmm i've seen better...

i was in hotel and so was arabian family at first they get in the pool with everything on (sure whay to clean after if you can get the clothes clean in the pool) also they used to drink at the pool and they must think that it's fun to throw the glass inside the water. and when i was gowing to my room one of their kids wanted to.... well let's just say thet he wasent' able to open the door so he did it on it....YACK... and much more...

next time i go to vacation i ask if there was any arabian lately...


Excuse me nick, when you say Arabian do you mean the Muslim Arabians or the Chrisitian, Jewisish, and buddist Arabian too!!!! Just as some Americans are Muslims, some are Chrisitian and some even Jewish, the same applies to Arabs. Now for one i am not an Arab, i was born in Canada and raised there but my parents are from Bosnia!!! Now i have and have met many Arab people, even have friends who are Arab. But those that you speak of are not and i mean this, are not pure Muslims. They might say they are, and they are but only by name not FAITH!!!!

When i say the last statment, '...only by name and not FAITH'. I stand by that this whole thread is revolving around this main idea/theme!!! Muslim's will never wage war against a neighbouring country unless we had a good reason. Now tell me something about this whole war in IRAQ, just because we fight back people are starting to talk bad things about us and condenming us!!! What about the time Canada fought back against the Americans in the revolutionary war, or when all those civil wars erupted in different countries happened!!! I don't see anyone getting fed up with them or talking bad, we Muslim's are basically protecting oursleves. If half of you people knew what my Muslim brothers are facing in IRAQ right now you would be disgusted!!!

So i ask again, why do you only talk about us Muslim's and about our religion. What about America???
wolfhnd
The real question is whether any of the existing religions should have a place in the modern world. Religions are dividing people and will do so as long as their follows insist that theirs is the one and only true religion. Tolerance is not the issue, intolerance of superstition is not bigotry.
wolfhnd
One more thought why do the Arab Muslims always pick on the US why don't they attack their real enemy the Turks Smile
Valleyman
wolfhnd wrote:
The real question is whether any of the existing religions should have a place in the modern world.

Religions are dividing people and will do so as long as their follows insist that theirs is the one and only true religion.

Tolerance is not the issue, intolerance of superstition is not bigotry.


I'm afraid you are incorrect on that last, at least:

dictionary.com wrote:

big·ot·ry
n.
The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.


So, as you can see, intolerance of superstition is still, very much, bigotry.

As to the first, the question is not so much should they but do they and will they continue to?
The answer to the both of those is yes. As much as we both wish it were not so religion is a very big part of the modern world. Though that could change it will not change through the very intolerance and divisiveness that you call both the problem and the solution.

And finally, as for the second: though religions do indeed divide people they also unite them, and (as much as I hate it) strengthen them (artificially, but still). Though there are certainly better things to rally around (like the fact that we're all human) there are certainly worse things as well.
Valleyman
wolfhnd wrote:
One more thought why do the Arab Muslims always pick on the US why don't they attack their real enemy the Turks Smile


First, this discussion isn't on Arab muslims, it's on all of them, thus the "islam is" (though admittedly things have changed a good bit since then). But, to actually answer your point, the Arab muslims don't attack the Turks because the Turks are not invading their land. Nor were the Turks the ones who in the 1950s overthrew the democratically elected government in Iran and installed an oppressive Shah, that was America. Nor are they the ones who are "infidels" or "the great satan" to the extremists.
GDG
wolfhnd wrote:
One more thought why do the Arab Muslims always pick on the US why don't they attack their real enemy the Turks Smile


Oh i don't know, who in the past few years has been destroying our lands, our people, their dignity??? Who teamed up with Britain and gave up one of our countries to the Jews??? Who bombed a baby-formula making factory all the way in Africa-Somalia because they thought it held nuclear bombs, and then in the end they said a big SORRY, without even helping the people out!!! You tell me why!!!
GDG
Valley man thank you for clearing out the issue with the Turks. But if i may the other reason is because they are the Muslim brothers of the Arabs, we don't kill each other.
i_am_mine
Since the topic of this debate is " Islam is..." and not " Christianity and Islam: A Comparitive Study " I'd like to remind you that I'm not Islam-baiting.I am, what both Islam and Christianity would classify as one or more of the following "heretic","heathen","unbeliever" or "kafir". As such I hope you can understand that I am unbiased ( or equally biased? ) towards both.

A welcoming hell awaits me from both cults.

But since the topic under discussion is " Islam is..." I'll focus on the Qu'ran and its people...all those who are offended by what proceeds:I offer no apologies, if the truth be vitriolic, then so be it.

Before I begin, let me react to some previous posts...

Quote:
No Coercion In Islam...Justice & Fairness to Non-Muslims...The Ultimate Justice...
Posted:Islamic Thinker

Let me clear all notions of Islam as a peaceful religion.As much as I would like to believe that it is, it is not.Barring a few hazy lines refering to peace ( to all etc ) spread across the Qu'ran which may be interpreted in multiple ways ( thus allowing them to be stretched to accomodate and justify violence )...

[these are all summaries of the verses, please feel free to look up the quoted verse numbers in full...]
Quote:

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 3:151

Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74

Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. 7:4-5

Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51

Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5

Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6


There are about somewhere between 331 to 403 instances of violence and intolerance such as those stated above spread across the Qu'ran.I would like to add that, on reading the Qu'ran myself I was surprised to find that the majority of its written verse was spent on explaining the consequences of not believing or having faith rather than explaining the intricacies, the culture or philosophy of the religion.

Also I'd appreciate it if those of you who are about to argue that the above quoted text from the Qu'ran has been wrongly interpreted/translated, I assure you that it is all translated quite literally and that 403 verses cannot, by even the most evil conspiracy hatched, be wrongly interpreted or bent and corrupted.So cease and desist from that argument and do us all a favor.

Also another minor correction:


Quote:
Another prominent example that I keep referring to concerning the just treatment of Islam to non-Muslims; is the fact that while a husband is allowed to ask his Muslim wife not to go to the Mosque; he has no right to ask his wife to go to Church or Synagogue if it happens that the wife is a Christian or a Jew.
Orig. Posted:IslamicThinker

It is strictly stated in the Qu'ran that you're wife cannot be a heretic, ("kafir") id est, non-muslim.The example itself is non-valid.Please get your facts right.However she may be your captive and you may fornicate with your slave-girls.

____________________
Nik wrote:
Quote:
arabian (most of them ) like animals they act like idiots their laws is hmmm i've seen better...

i was in hotel and so was arabian family at first they get in the pool with everything on (sure whay to clean after if you can get the clothes clean in the pool) also they used to drink at the pool and they must think that it's fun to throw the glass inside the water. and when i was gowing to my room one of their kids wanted to.... well let's just say thet he wasent' able to open the door so he did it on it....YACK... and much more...

next time i go to vacation i ask if there was any arabian lately...


I find a nation or a culture that throws there glasses and lets there kids pee on doors far more preferable to a nation where sex, seduction and paedophilia are industries ( the pornography industry in the United States alone earns revenues of over $10 billion ).Where mass media is not a source of enlightenment, but a refined art of deceit and manipulation that will buy your soul for money (a $1 trillion advertising and marketing industry, where the 5 major music channels, over 40% of radio channels are owned by a single company and over 90% of media controlled by just 5 super-giants spells one thing -brainwash).
In short I'd rather have my son peeing on doors than surfing porn and being a rascist pig doing government encouraged cocaine and my daughter buying sillicon.

my point being: if you're arguing, atleast make a point, for every kid a arab has that pees on a door I could put up six paedophiles as a counter arguement, and vice versa too.Flaming with pathetic posts is well...pathetic.

________________________

Getting back to the topic...

Is Islam a religion of peace?
I would have preferred to keep the answer limited to the confines of the Qu'ran but find myself unable to and knowing that answer I must also state that none of the Abrahamic religions are peaceful.
[Abrahamic is categoral term here, for the complete list of Abrahamic Religions...Google it ]

A few excerpts from the bible:[these are all summaries of the verses, please feel free to look up the quoted verse numbers in full...]
Quote:


God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." 11:7

"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed." ( If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed.) 22:20

Do not allow others to worship a different god. Conquer them and destroy their religious property. 23:24

God promises to "send his fear before the Israelites" and to kill everyone that they encounter when they enter the promised land. 23:27

Stay away from those who worship a different god. 23:32


_____________________________________________

For every conquest there will be a crusade, as you turn the pages of history you will realise they're all horrifyingly similar, the brown of the pages you see is not that of age but of dried blood.And you people of cult and sect continue to be the authors of the history of mankind is what deeply saddens me...you write in blood, the ink of the hysteria.

Men of faith, it seems are similar to a pack of wolves, bickering and quarelling amongst each other when all is at peace outside, but united as a pack [as cult], strong, sneering, capable, they stand up as one when they find an enemy...prey...a kill.

You ask how?
When all men ( or seemingly all) walked the path of Christianity peace should have been kept, but no it was not so.The Spanish, the Portugese,The English were all divided.The gruesome killings of these times are famous in history.
And then came the Muslim empire and you were divided no more.A common enemy, and you were united in you snarls and in your fight.A true pack.May the hunt begin.

And the same for Islam.That Islam is undivided is a misconception.Genocide within the religion is a well recorded fact (across Iran,Iraq, Afghanistan).One of the reasons for its initial success as a religion itself was that its members could unite against a common enemy ( refer: The Battles of Mecca,The Slaying of Jewish Caravans ).

And then you must conclude that anyone persecuted at some time will not bow down, but find greater strength, even if the purpose or philosophy that drives him be fundamentally wrong.Humans are attracted by that which is forbidden: Jesus was persecuted by the Romans, The Prophet by the Meccans.Even if their teachings were flawed, people flocked to join the ranks of that which was forbidden by the state.A trend that continues till today.


Albert Einstein said:“God does not play dice with the universe.”

How true...its the men who play dice with the Universe.


I hope you find yourselves at your Sunday and Friday prayers.
GDG
my dear respected friend, I_am_Mine*, i have read your post and am planning to respond to some of the things you have said when i reach my home and have the 'Holy Qur'an' in my hands.

I am currently at school, so i have no access to one right now. So please be patient!!!!
GDG
i_am_mine wrote:
[these are all summaries of the verses, please feel free to look up the quoted verse numbers in full...]
Quote:

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 3:151

Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74

Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. 7:4-5

Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51

Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5

Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6


Well as i had promised i am back and have read all those verses that you cited. But i would like to know my friend, from which exact source did you find these verses cited!!!
Because i have already found one error in the first verse, for some strange and apparent reason there was this whole sentence just missing which actually was the explanation to why the disbelievers will go to hell - and may i also add it answers your concern about you going to hell if you join the religion of Islam.


i_am_mine wrote:

Quote:
We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 3:151



The Holy Qur'an wrote:

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allah(God), fo which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the fire, and how evil is the abode of the wrongdoers 3:151


As you can see, there is a reason for why Allah will send the disbeliever to hell, not just because He wants to - there are always reasons. NEXT...

i_am_mine wrote:

Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74

Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76


The Holy Qur'an wrote:

There is certainly among you he who would linger behind from fighting. If a misfortune befalls you, he says, "Indeed Allah has favoured me in that i was not present among them"

But if a bounty(victory and booty) comes to you from Allah, he would surely say - as if there had never been ties of affection between you and him - "Oh! I wish i had been with them; then i would have achieved a great success(a good share of booty)."

Let those(believers) who sell the life of this world for teh Hereafter fight in the Cause of Allah, and whoso fights in the Cause of Allah, and is killed or gets victory, We shall bestow on him great reward.

And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, ill-treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help."

Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut(Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan. Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Satan 4:72 - 76


I have quoted the verses that come before and after the ones you my friend quoted. And as we see again, there is a good reason for why Allah(God) has sent down these verses. To tell us that there were and still are people living among us who are hypocrites or two-faces as is teh common name for these people. In teh past they used to say that they believed but, then when it came to something like fighting they would back away.

So Allah told those who were fighting that they will recieve a very good reward for all those hardships they had to go through, even thought they were small in teh beginning. but if we read a bit more we see why Allah has commanded Muslims to fight, not because our enemy are soldiers of Satan, but because of what they used to do to the villages and towns that had no army. They would go in, kill everyone and rape the women and steal everything, so Allah has commanded us to go and help them, to protect them from the evil oppressors, who are guided by Satan's whispers.

i_am_mine wrote:

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89


The Holy Qur'an wrote:

They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected Faith, and thus that you all become equal. So take not Auliya(protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah. But if they turn back, take them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither auliya(protectors or friends) nor helpers from them 4:89


Once again my friend, i am befuddeled to see that you missed out the main part of that verse. I suggest next time to check over everything before posting, and if anyone see's a mistake in mine please tell me so that i may fix it - Thank You!!!

This verse is self explanatory, here Allah is telling us not to make friends with the unbelievers, yes and no. He said a certain type of unbelievers, thos which want me to give up my religion. And i would like to add that we as Muslims can have friends and co-workers with unbelievers, but up to a certain point. Now Allah tells us that we shoudl not make friends with the people who want us to change until they become Muslim, but if they turn away then we must kill them.

Let me add though, one more ayah which comes right underneath that one that i fixed up for you.

The Holy Qur'an wrote:

Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty(of peace), or those who approach you and wish their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them.


So as wee see, only thos who fight against Muslims are we allowed to kill them. But if someone comes to use form another religion and he says peace, we retreat and make peace as well.

Now as you might have seen, i have so far finished most verses for you, and have told you there true meaning and why Allah(God) sent them down to us. But may i, before i end this first part fix up one of your verses that you quoted.

i_am_mine wrote:

Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6


The true verse says this:

The Holy Qur'an wrote:

And if anyone of the Mushrikun(disbelievers) seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not. 9:6


I end my first part now.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secondly, i would like to fix you one of your ideas that the Qur'an has about 331 - 403 verses just talking about the violence and intolerance.

The Qur'an is divided into many main parts or as you would say themes. Some talk about the oneness or truth about Allah(God), some talk about the Qur'an itself, while one portion talks about Islam and how we shoud live it, so in my knowledge and sense it would be impossible to see that many verses about just one topic such as war - It is false to my knowledge!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Third thing:

i_am_mine wrote:

Quote:
Another prominent example that I keep referring to concerning the just treatment of Islam to non-Muslims; is the fact that while a husband is allowed to ask his Muslim wife not to go to the Mosque; he has no right to ask his wife to go to Church or Synagogue if it happens that the wife is a Christian or a Jew.
Orig. Posted:IslamicThinker

It is strictly stated in the Qu'ran that you're wife cannot be a heretic, ("kafir") id est, non-muslim.The example itself is non-valid.Please get your facts right.However she may be your captive and you may fornicate with your slave-girls.



Once again, i am sorry to say to you that you are totally wrong. We are not forbidden to marry non-Muslim women or non-Muslim men. Actually, here is the verse and i will exapnd a bit on it!!!

The Holy Qur'an wrote:

And do not marry Al-Mushrikat(idolatresses) till they believe(worship Allah alone). And indeed a slave women who believes is better than a (free) idolatress, even though she pleases you. And give not(your daughters) in marriage to idolaters till they believe in Allah alone and verily, a believeing slave is better than a free idolater, even though he pleases you. Those idolaters invite you to the Hell Fire, but Allahinvites you to Paradise and Forgiveness by His leave, and makes his proofs clear to mankind that they may remember.


So as you can see, we are allowed to marry thos who believe in Allah, and in that time when the Prophet Muhammad(SAW) was alive, there were some women and men who were Christian and believed in Allah, and some Jews who believed in Allah - those we were and are allowed to marry if they believe in Allah but sadly there are non like that anymore. Who we are not allowed to believe in are thos people who believe in idols, or are athiest!!!

Sadly i cannot confirm if those verses you took from "The Bible" are true or not. So if there is any Chrisitan who can confirm please go right ahead, thank you!!!
GDG
I am very sorry that i didn't post this before in my earlier post, very sorry!!! But what i wanted to tell everyone is that it's not verry appropriate or nice to take something out of context. For example, if you took out a moral that was part of the story, it would be easier to understand if you had the whoe story that went with the context.

So please, when ever youa re quoting, please write the whole quote rather than just a part of it!!!
wolfhnd
Bigot:a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.

Now who does that remind you of?

Bigotry is understood to mean prejudice although in the diffinition you offered intolorance is substituted for prejudice.

Prejudice=an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge.
GDG
wolfhnd, are you speaking to me or 'I_am_mine'??? I am guessing him because i saw you guys were talking about it earlier, you're pretty dedicated to making something right, lol. I like that!!!
withaar
gonzo wrote:
.. well you decide
...
ikes!!!

Rolling Eyes


To bring it back to the original point, islam is not sharia law. Christianity is not the bible (edited by the vatican). You conflate two issues, simplifying a discussion that is already sufficiently befuddled.

The punishment is most certainly gruesome, inhumane. I would certainly not wish to be a citizen of Iran. That being said, to lump all islam in is an unintelligent way to move forward. I can still see the headlines with GW on the photo and "crusade" spelled above it - his word. Fundamental anything is a danger to a society that tries to create an environment where people can be as free as possible, provided they allow others the same priviledge. In other words, a libertarian society of sorts; a founding, and perhaps lost, principle of the united states.

I believe both religions promote to "do onto others as you would have them onto you". Seems like a decent idea, and not entirely unlibertarian.

I like the idea that people could be decent for no better reason than that it is the right thing to do. My favourite piece of humanism: http://www.vonnegutweb.com/archives/arc_humanist.html.
wolfhnd
Just to clear up the history a lot of Arabs were killed by and they killed a lot of their Turk brothers. If you want a detailed account from Muslim sources it should not be hard to come up with.

The point is that it should come as no surprise to anyone that the Mideast is in constant state of political chaos and warfare. It's been going on for what 6000 years?

The Muslims just happen to be the latest owners of that piece of real estate. Any claim they may make to being particularly victimized is not legitimate. It seems to me that it is just the latest chapter and in the previous chapter they were doing the victimizing. That is what is wrong with religion you can always claim you did you victimizing in the name of god. Some how this is supposed to make the victim feel better?
GDG
6000 years, ok man that recently happened, and when i mean recently i mean like in out time not the ancients. Islam only started about 1428 years ago so its impossible for that long!!!

As for the killing, yes we all know that it happened, except those people who called themselves Muslim were not. As i have said before they are Muslim by name but not by Faith, there is an extreme difference between those two characteristics and now adays most religions are populated by followers who are only by name, even Islam.

It's not that im against my Religion or anything, but i am sure that budhists, Jews, Christians and even Muslims have the same exact problem!!! But what can be done, nothing as i see it. I mean whenever someone who is truly religious comes from his Religion to try and preach it and teach it, you've got the governement shutting him up and throwing him in jail for life or just killing him. It' s obvious not only in teh Arab countries but America as well!!!
i_am_mine
To clear up any doubts of "out of context " I post the verses in full below, however unfortunately I am required to be somewhere this morning so I cannot post all 400 odd verses and will try with as many as I can...Thank you.

Quote:
3:118 O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.


Quote:
2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.


This one is for IslamicThinker, to clear up any doubts of intermarriage:

Quote:
2:221 Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember.


Quote:

4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.


And to contradict your verses of peace...
Quote:

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,



I will attempt to post all 400 verses when I return and I'd appreciate it if you didn't argue along the terms of " out of context ", we'd all like to believe our religion is peaceful, but we forget that it is only a byproduct of man himself.

The verses quoted above are in full.

Also I noticed that the verses you quoted ( in full ) meant exactly the same thing as the shortened versions I posted. Your post only made my points clearer.Thank you.
GDG
It is very sad that you my friend had to recopy those exact verses which i had written down. But when you say that i should not talk about "out of context" there you are wrong.

If you will be quoting verses from the holy Qur'an, or any holy scripture then it is wise that you also quote the verses before and after.

[code="i_am_mine"]
Quote:
3:118 O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand. [/code]

One error, from the meaning you cited above, it is not out of context. The 8th word form teh beginning says 'intimates'!!! In reality that is not the correct word, you either have an incorrect interpretation by mistake or on purpose. The word used here is actually "Bitanah" which basically means advisors or consultants, or helpers and so on. So i seriously don't see whats wrong here, and i will give you an example why!

Let's say you work for a compnay and you got a project to do, now would you go to your colleagues who you are working with or to the other people who work in teh company that is rival with yours. If you go with them, then they will try their best to make you screw up on teh project, costing you company billions or more.

Now here Allah is telling us the same thing, don't take advisors, helpers from the other side - the side that hates you or is your rival because they will want to ruin you and your people and the society at large!!!

i_am_mine wrote:

Quote:
2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.


Here we see that Allah is telling us that although we might hate fighting, it is the last thing left for us since the enemy doesn't want to talk and wants to fight. If you look into the past, and search about the history of Islam you might and will find that Islam was firstly preached out o the people of Mecca. but then those people hated the word so they kicked the Muslims out and then after the Muslims had left to go to another city the disbelievers followed them to teh otehr city to fight!!!! So the only last resort is to fight, because they would have been killed if they didn't right???

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As for the verse(ayah) which you stated towards islamic thinker i would like to answer to that because i already stated it before and the reason:

i_am_mine wrote:

Quote:
2:221 Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember.


What i said:

GDG wrote:

The Holy Qur'an wrote:

And do not marry Al-Mushrikat(idolatresses) till they believe(worship Allah alone). And indeed a slave women who believes is better than a (free) idolatress, even though she pleases you. And give not(your daughters) in marriage to idolaters till they believe in Allah alone and verily, a believeing slave is better than a free idolater, even though he pleases you. Those idolaters invite you to the Hell Fire, but Allahinvites you to Paradise and Forgiveness by His leave, and makes his proofs clear to mankind that they may remember.


So as you can see, we are allowed to marry thos who believe in Allah, and in that time when the Prophet Muhammad(SAW) was alive, there were some women and men who were Christian and believed in Allah, and some Jews who believed in Allah - those we were and are allowed to marry if they believe in Allah but sadly there are non like that anymore. Who we are not allowed to believe in are thos people who believe in idols, or are athiest!!!


i_am_mine wrote:

Quote:

4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.


Once again this deals with idolaters, or the people who believe in idols!!! As i said above, in the Prophet Muhammad's(SAW) time there were some people who were pure Chrisitan and Jewish!!! Meaning that they believed in the true God and did not have destroyed copies of their scriptures. But there were some who worshipped idols, or didn't believe in anything like athiests, so Allah says to them you will go to hell for not believing.

But what i find this thread lacking is happy verses, so i shall quote the verse after the one above that you cited my dear friend i_am_mine.

The Holy Qur'an wrote:

But those who believe and do deeds(good things) of righteousness, We shall admit them to Gardens undr which rivers flow, abiding therein forever. Therein they shall have purified mates, and We shall admit them to shades wide and ever deepening.


Once again, please read my posts and that of Islamic Thinker before you post an ayat(verse), and if you will please tell me where you are getting all these verses? Because if they are from the internet, then they are either false or have been interpreted wrongly. As for this verse, once again read other people's posts please, i am sure that you saw that i had already posted this one and gave an explanation, so basically you are reposting.

i_am_mine wrote:

And to contradict your verses of peace...
Quote:

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,


What i had posted:

GDG wrote:

The Holy Qur'an wrote:

They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected Faith, and thus that you all become equal. So take not Auliya(protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah. But if they turn back, take them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither auliya(protectors or friends) nor helpers from them 4:89


Once again my friend, i am befuddeled to see that you missed out the main part of that verse. I suggest next time to check over everything before posting, and if anyone see's a mistake in mine please tell me so that i may fix it - Thank You!!!

This verse is self explanatory, here Allah is telling us not to make friends with the unbelievers, yes and no. He said a certain type of unbelievers, thos which want me to give up my religion. And i would like to add that we as Muslims can have friends and co-workers with unbelievers, but up to a certain point. Now Allah tells us that we shoudl not make friends with the people who want us to change until they become Muslim, but if they turn away then we must kill them.

Let me add though, one more ayah which comes right underneath that one that i fixed up for you.

The Holy Qur'an wrote:

Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty(of peace), or those who approach you and wish their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them.


So as wee see, only thos who fight against Muslims are we allowed to kill them. But if someone comes to use form another religion and he says peace, we retreat and make peace as well.


My apologies, Islamic Thinker if you wished to reply to those verses. Please go right ahead and add your ideas I was just showing my earlier posts. As for your last sentence where you said that i posted the verses in full and that cleared the point you were making. And your Welcome if i did do that, but i believe i didn't and will show you why.

What you wrote were shortened versions of the verses, and not only that but you didn't shorten evrything you just chose that part which spoke about evil things, yet the verses in full speak yes of killing but they say why the killing. So sorry to say this to you, and hope i don't make you mad but you didn't shorten the verses "you deleted very important parts of them". In other words, you changed them totally!!!

Thank you, and please don't waist your time posting all so called 400 verses of war. We know that they exist there, and what they say. Why not writing something about heaven or rewards that you might recieve taht are written in the Qur'an.

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i woudl like to add that not all Chrisitans or Jews will go to hell, the first believers of thos religions are going to heaven with Allah's Blessings. And might i add that even today you might be able to go to Heaven if God is merciful with you, i would like to share a story with you before i leave:

During the Prophet's time, there was a women who went out and did bad things to get an income and be able to live - i will not mention what things as they might be offencesive to some people and disgraceful to the lady. Well when she grew old, and the Prophet knew about her even though she lived all the way in another city, he said that she was still going to Paradise. why??? Becasue Allah had told him about her and what she had done, a dog came to her thirsty and she had no jug or anything only a well so she took of her shoe and put some water in it and gave it to the dog.

She was merciful to the dog, so Allah was merciful with her. And i believe he will be Merciful to you too, and i pray he does InshAllah(God willing).
i_am_mine
I assure you, I shall post the verses both preceeding and immediately after the verses quoted in full in the next few hours or days, as soon as I get the time.
Thank You.

Jews and Christians may go to heaven if Allah is merciful? My thats comforting. I suggest they all start seeking mercy a.s.a.p.

Good luck.
GDG
Excuse me but if you are going to be screaming at anyone then i suggest scream at teh religious leaders of the Jewish and Chrisitan Faith. Don't know if many of you have heard but every year they gather toggether and change you Holy Bible and Torah - Am not sure on name of Jewish scripture.

They have taught and still do that we Muslims are the enemies, im trying to help clear that confusion. What i was trying to show was hwo much Merciful Allah is, even if you don't believe you might have a chance. Yet i have never heard of that happening in the Chrisitan Faith or Jewish Faith.

To go to heaven you must be part of their Faith, or else it Hell. Not a pretty picture if you ask me and you're here telling me and showing me what my book is saying, please og and read yours. Unless that is your athiest, which i have been having a speculation of since you had quoted the thing about marriage!!!

Edit: Next time you write name of any God please be sure to write the first letter capital, seeing as it is a name. So please refer to my God as Allah not "allah", thank you very much.
i_am_mine
My,my so much screaming? But from where?

Silence sometimes sounds too loud.

No one's screaming at you GDG, its just that the truth sounds so loud that you imagine it to be directed at you.Perhaps it is.

A matter of syntax and punctuation effects the pride,status,ego and elevation of the Gods? I would have thought not.Well there it is with the capital 'A'.I hope he is pleased with my grammar.

Also:

Quote:
Don't know if many of you have heard but every year they gather toggether and change you Holy Bible and Torah - Am not sure on name of Jewish scripture.


That they change the Bible and Torah is common fact not to be taken as criticism, it is infacta progressive revision of the several original scripts that is done.

More importantly:

Quote:
Muslims have the well known propaganda statement that there are no variants in the Qur'an at all and the Qur'an has been the same text even to the detail of each single letter and that this was so from the very beginning. More educated Muslims know that this is not true, but the average Muslim is made to believe this objectively wrong claim.


On a more technical note, as you GDG, seem to make a lot out of syntax and punctuation ( in so much that it may effect spirituality itself ) then let me state that present day Qu'ran is neither pronounced the same throughout, nor is has its structure been preserved through the years:
Quote:

There are also numerous traditions, and many conflicting academic theories, as to the provenance of the verses later assembled into the Qur'an (This is covered in greater detail in the article on the Qur'an). Most Muslims accept the account recorded in several hadith, which state that Abu Bakr, the first caliph, ordered Zayd ibn Thabit to collect and record all the authentic verses of the Qur'an, as preserved in written form or oral tradition. Zayd's written collection, privately treasured by Muhammad's widow Hafsa bint Umar, was used by Uthman and is the basis of today's Qur'an.

Uthman's version organized the suras roughly in order of length, with the longest suras at the start of the Qur'an and the shortest ones at the end. More conservative views state that the order of most suras was divinely set. Later scholars have struggled to put the suras in chronological order, and among Muslim commentators, at least there is a rough consensus as to which suras were revealed in Mecca and which at Medina. Some suras (e.g. surat Iqra) are thought to have been revealed in parts at separate times.

Because the Qur'an was first written (date uncertain) in the Hijazi, Mashq, Ma'il, and Kufic scripts, which write consonants only and do not supply the vowels, and because there were differing oral traditions of recitation, as non-native Arabic speakers converted to Islam, there was some disagreement as to the exact reading of many verses. Eventually, scripts were developed that used diacritical markings (known as points) to indicate vowels. For hundreds of years after Uthman's recension, Muslim scholars argued as to the correct pointing and reading of Uthman's unpointed official text, (the rasm). Eventually, most commentators accepted seven variant readings (qira'at) of the Qur'an as canonical.
The form of the Qur'an most used today is the Al-Azhar text of 1923, prepared by a committee at the prestigious Cairo university of Al-Azhar.


Furthermore, historians state:

Quote:
In particular, let us ask why some of the oldest manuscripts are not photographically reproduced and made available to the public and the scholars. Why not start with the Topkapi manuscript in Istanbul, the Taschkent manuscript, and the two old manuscripts in Cairo and Damascus. They are not Uthmanic manuscripts as some believe, but they are quite old. And then, publish them together in a format that makes it easy to compare them, or even better, listing all the differences between the texts, like it is done for the critical editions of the Bible text.


One such example being:
Quote:

1. THE MUSHAF: AN INCOMPLETE RECORD OF THE QUR'AN TEXT.

We have already seen that on the Day of Yamama not long after Muhammad's death texts of the Qur'an that were said to have been known only to those who perished in the battle were irretrievably lost. We also find many other instances in the historical record of the Qur'an text where individual verses and, at times, lengthy portions are said to have been omitted from it. There is, in fact, a virtually unanimous opinion among the early historians that the Qur'an, as it stands, is incomplete. Abdullah ibn Umar, in the earliest days of Islam, was quite emphatic about this:

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

There are a number of examples that could be quoted but we shall confine ourselves to perhaps the most well-known of these to prove the point. A typical case relates to a verse which is said to have read:

The religion with Allah is al-Hanifiyyah (the Upright Way) rather than that of the Jews or the Christians, and those who do good will not go unrewarded. (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.525).

According to at-Tirmithi in his Kitab al-Tafsir, one of the sections of his Jami', his collection of hadith records which rates as one of the six major works of authentic tradition literature in Islam alongside the Sahihs of al-Bukhari and Muslim and the three sunan works of Abu Dawud, an-Nasai and Ibn Maja, this verse at one time formed part of Suratul-Bayyinah (Surah 98 ) in the Qur'an (Nöldeke, Geschichte, 1.242). This is quite possible as it fits well into the context of the short surah which contains, in other verses, some of the words appearing in the missing text, such as diin (religion, v.5), 'aml (to do, v.7), and hunafa (upright, v.4), and also contrasts the way of Allah with the beliefs of the Jews and the Christians.

It is also significant to note here that, whereas the standard text of Surah 3.19 today reads innadiina 'indallaahil-Islaam - "the religion before Allah is al-Islam (i.e. the Submission)", Ibn Mas'ud read in place of al-Islam the title al-Hanifiyyah, i.e. "the Upright Way" (Jeffery, Materials, p.32), thus coinciding with the text said to have been part of Surah 98 by at-Tirmithi. At the beginning of Muhammad's mission there were a number of people in Arabia who disclaimed the worship of idols and called themselves hunafa, specifically meaning those who follow the upright way and who scorn the false creeds surrounding them.

It may well be that Muhammad first chose this same title al-Hanfiyyah to describe his own faith but, as his religion took on its own unique identity, he substituted al-Islam for it and called believers Muslims, signifying that they were not only followers of the right way but, at the same time, submitters to Allah who reveals that way and commands obedience to it. This would account for the lapse of the earlier title in the Qur'an and the omission of the verse we have been considering from its text.

We have evidence of a whole section of the Qur'an that is now said to be missing in the as-sunan al-Kubra of al-Baihaqi, an extensive collection of hadith records not regarded as authentic as the six major works we have mentioned but nonetheless of great interest and importance. Ubayy ibn Ka'b is said to have recalled a time when Suratul-Ahzab (the thirty-third Surah) once was the same length as Suratul-Baqarah (the second Surah), which means it must have had at least two hundred verses not found in its text today (Al-Baihaqi, As-Sunan al-Kubra, Vol. 8, p.211). Significantly this missing section is said to have contained the verses commanding the death sentence for adulterers.



Before I end this post let me state that, The post regarding marriage was in answer to a post by a user called IslamicThinker, please read all posts GDG, before posting to me.
Secondly, I have nothing against Islam, I simply lay out the truth for you to read, whether you close your mind to it is your choice.If you were to ask me about the Bible and Torah I would lay down a similar un-biased, un-emotional study based completely on evidence and facts.
Nobody's screaming, what you're hearing is the truth.Like I said, sometimes it gets too loud.
mustaq
boho999 wrote:
The only peacful religion I know of is Buddism.


buddiest is the part of hindusim which is know to be world oldest religion if you dont belive just gooogle it

due to few truthless islam people people can't tell islam is not a peaceful or what ever may be i can see around the in many religion there are terror is there so we can blam whole religion is terror just use your mind my friends
i_am_mine
Can't quite understand what you're saying but yes, technically Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world,however to be even more precise philosophically Hinduism is not a religion as its founders had no notion of what religion ( or modern religion ) with its doctrines and laws was.Atmost it was formed as a philosophy.
And yes, apparently (sadly) most of the world's religions embrace violence and have hatred embibed.

Also to be noted is that a later branch of Buddhism ( I cannot at this moment recall its name ) was formed where Buddha himself was worshipped ( Buddha himself opposed this and is known to have questioned the existence of the commonly accepted notions of what God is ).This branch of Buddhism spread across the East ( with the exception of India where Buddhism in its original form was practised ) to countries like Japan and China, where war and violence reached epic proportions, indeed, seppuku or hara-kiri (the act of a Samurai killing himself on the battlefield incase of defeat to save "pride"),gruesome wars, inhumane killings were all existant in these Buddhist lands.

It is not the religion that makes a man, perhaps the other way around.Who would have thought that the land of Buddha would be famous for the deadliest and most blood letting swords the world has seen?( Samurai is something most of the world has only heard of in Jap. Anime Cartoons, I assure you there is a lot more history to that than it appears...look it up, its quite interesting Smile )

After thought: was the name Katayana? Hmm...will get back to you.
IslamicThinker
I have a story of a convert to islam please have a look at it and comment as you wish....
Quote:
HOW I CAME TO ISLAM

by

Fouad Haddad (Lebanon)

Written on the 19th of Ramadan 1417 (28 January 1997)


I was born and raised in a typical middle-class Lebanese Catholic family in Beirut, Lebanon. Two years into the war I was forced to leave, and completed high school in England. Then I went to Columbia College in New York. After my BA I went back to Lebanon and taught at my old school. Two years later I left Lebanon again, this time of my own free will, although it was a more wrenching separation than the first. I left behind my war-torn country and made for my new land of opportunities. I was demoralized, and spiritually at a complete impass. With my uncle's support I went back to graduate studies at Columbia. This is the brief story of my conversion to Islam while there.

While in Lebanon I had come to realize that I was a nominal Christian who did not really live according to what he knew were the norms of his faith. I decided than whenever the chance came I would try my best to live according to my idea of Christian standards for one year, no matter the cost. I took this challenge while at Columbia. A graduate student's life is blessed with the leisure necessary for spiritual and intellectual exploration. In the process I read and meditated abundantly, and I prayed earnestly for dear guidance. My time was shared literally between the church and the library, and I gradually got rid of all that stood in the way of my experiment, especially social attachments or activities that threatened to steal my time and concentration. I only left campus to visit my mother every now and then.

Certain meetings and experiences had set me on the road of inquiry about Islam. During a scholarship year spent in Paris I had bought a complete set of tapes of the holy Qur'an. Back in New York I listened to its recitation for the first time, as I read simultaneously the translation, drinking in its awesome beauty. I paid particular attention to the passages that concerned Christians. I felt an inviting familiarity to it because undoubtedly the One I addressed in my prayers was the same One that spoke this speech, even as I squirmed at some of the "verses of threat". After some time I knew that this was my path, since I had become convinced of the heavenly origin of the Qur'an.

I was reading many books at the same time. Two of them were Martin Lings' "Life of Muhammad" and Fariduddin Attar's "Book of Secrets" (Persian "Asrar-Nama", in French translation). I found extremely inspiring Lings' account of Shaykh Ahmad `Alawi's life in his book "A Sufi Saint of the Twentieth Century." I did not finish the latter before I became a Muslim; but I am jumping ahead. At any rate, it now seemed my previous experience of religion had been like learning the alphabet in comparison, even my early morning and late night Bible readings and my past studies in the original Latin of Saint Augustine, who had once towered in my life as a spiritual giant.

I began to long almost physically for a kind of prayer closer to the Islamic way, which to me held promises of great spiritual fulfillment, although I had grown completely dependent on certain spiritual habits -- particularly communion and prayer -- and could hardly do without them. And yet I had unmistakable signs pointing me in a further direction. One of them I considered almost a slap in the face in its frankness: when I told my local priest about the attraction I felt towards Islam he responded as he should, but then closed his talk with the words: allahu akbar. "Allahu akbar"? An Italian-American priest?!

I went to two New York mosques but the imams there wanted to talk about the Bible or about the Middle East conflict, I suppose to make polite conversation with me. I realized they did not necessarily see what drove me to them and yet I did not find an avenue where I would pluck up the courage to declare my intention. Then I would go home and tell myself: Another day has passed, and you are still not Muslim. Finally I went to the Muslim student group at Columbia and announced my intention, and declared the two shahada: The Arabic formula that consists in saying "I bear witness that there is no god but Allah" -- the Arabic name for God -- "and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Prophet." They taught me ablution and salat (prayer), and I gained a dear friend among them. Those days are marked in my life with letters of light.

Another close friend of mine played a role in this conversion. This devout American Christian friend had entered Islam years before me. At the time I felt in my silly pride that it was wrong for an American to enter into the religion of the Arabs and for me, an Arab, to stand like a mule in complete ignorance of it. It had a great effect on me from both sides: the cultural one and the spiritual, because he was -- is -- an honest and upright person whose major move meant a great deal to me.

I had also come to realize that my early education in Lebanon had carefully sheltered me from Islam, even though I lived in a mixed neighborhood in the middle of Beirut. I went to my father's and grandfather's Jesuit school. The following incident is proof that there is no turning away of Allah's gift when He decides to give it. One year, when I was 12, a strange religious education teacher gave us as an assignment the task of learning the Fatiha -- the first chapter of the Qur'an -- by heart. I went home and did, and it stayed with me all my life. After parents complained he was fired -- "we do not send our children to a Christian school in order for them to learn the religion of Muslims" -- but the seed had been sown, right there in the staunch Christian heartland, inside its prize school. Now here I was in the United States, knocking at the door of the religion of the Prophet, peace be upon him!

Days after I took shahada I met my teacher and the light on my path, Shaykh Hisham Kabbani of Tripoli, after which I met his own teacher, Shaykh Nazim al-Haqqani of Cyprus. May Allah bless and grant them long life. Through them, after some years, my mother also took shahada and I hope and pray every day that my two brothers and stepfather will soon follow in Allah's immense generosity. Allah's blessings and peace on the Prophet, his Family, his Companions, and all Prophets.

i_am_mine
Quite honestly, I've gotten quite bored of these conversion stories, just another means of propoganda used by both religions, for the sake of giving you a look at both sides of the coin ( and the fact that it flips both ways ) here's a story of a Muslim convert to Christianity...
Enjoy, while I spend my time reading Dickens ( anyone a fan of the Pickwick Papers? )......





Quote:
My name is "Abdul Saleeb." I was born and raised in a Muslim country in the Middle East. Even though I lived in a very conservative Muslim society, I grew up in a somewhat of a liberal Muslim family. Furthermore, my Muslim upbringing was unique due to my mother's serious involvement in Islamic sufism. So I can honestly confess that I have had first-hand experience of every aspect of contemporary Islamic movements. I personally did not consider myself very religious. At one point I even turned to Marxist ideologies thinking that they could provide real solutions to my country's social ills. However, throughout all this time I never doubted the fundamentals of my religious faith. I thought of Islam as a faith with such high ideals that I did not consider myself worthy of the name Muslim but I wholeheartedly believed that Islam was God's last and most perfect religion for all mankind, based on God's final revelation, the Qur'an, and the prophet Muhammad, God's seal of prophethood. My view of other religions (especially Judaism and Christianity) was that although they were fundamentally the same since they had all been revealed by one God, they were all inferior to Islam because all of them had to various degrees corrupted the original message of their founding prophets, something that we as Muslims have not done.

My religious views were radically challenged when I left my country because of its civil turmoil and went to Europe for the continuation of my studies. By the providence of God and because of various circumstances, I ended up enrolling in an International Christian School.

A question I once asked my teacher revolutionized my worldview. I asked, "How come your word of God says one thing and our word of God says something different?" My teacher, not knowing much about Islam at all, gently asked, "How do you know the Qur'an is the word of God?" I was taken aback by that response. I had lived in a world in which everyone simply presupposed that the Qur'an was dictated word for word by God to the Prophet Muhammad and no one ever questioned that assumption. That brief encounter forced me to start on a journey, engage my Christian friends in hours of cordial discussion and debate about the truthfulness of the Christian faith.


Christianity and Islam
Like almost any other Muslim, my original reaction to the claims of Christians about Jesus Christ was that of utter shock. These claims not only seemed like plain blasphemy but also quite nonsensical. How could any rational being believe such things about an honored prophet of God? Despite my fundamental theological differences with my friends, there was something about their life and faith that impressed me a great deal. There was a sincerity in their relationship with God and with other people that I had not encountered. So I would often tell them that I did not want to deny their faith but I just wanted to find a compromise so that I could hold to the truth of Islam and they could continue to hold to their faith.
However, I was in no doubt that their belief about Jesus was based on statements that the prophet Jesus had never actually claimed for himself. My difficulty in understanding Christian belief was very much along the lines that have historically separated Islam from Christianity.

I did not grant in any way that the Bible, especially the New Testament documents, were reliable when it came to reporting the words of Christ. Anything in the Bible that disagreed with the Qur'an was automatically rejected as being a corrupt teaching in the Bible.

My spiritual journey went on for months. Oftentimes I did find comfort in the Qur'an, but I was encountering more questions in that book than answers. For example, the violent tone of many of the Qur'anic passages (especially against the unbelievers but also against the Jewish and Christian people) began to bother me, when compared with the emphasis on love in the New Testament. One particular passage that troubled me, especially in light of my good friendship with many Christians, was in Sura 5:51.


"O ye who believe! Take not Jews and Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."
However, the most troubling section of the Qur'an had to do with the character of the prophet Muhammad himself. According to Sura 33:37, God sanctions Muhammad's desire to marry the divorced wife of his own stepson, "in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And God's command must be fulfilled."

I vivdly remember the first time that I came across that verse in my study of the Qur'an. I began to sob with great sorrow and shame. All my life I had been told that Muhammad was the most perfect and ideal moral example for mankind and yet the Qur'an had a good number of examples of how the "revelations" could be so self-serving to the prophet himself!


Christianity or Islam
I immediately wrote a letter to my mother back home with some of these troubling questions that I was encountering. The response that I received to my letter from one of the most prominent religious leaders in my country was that I should just continue my secular studies and not focus too much on religion. On the other hand, as my understanding of the Bible was increasing many of my questions were beginning to get answered. Even as a Muslim I came to believe that the crucifixion of Christ was an undisputable historical fact that no honest person that deals with evidences of history could deny.
The character of Christ himself, as manifested for example in his beautiful Sermon on the Mount, was gradually making a great impression on me. But for me the most impressive factor about Christ was the multitude of Old Testament prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. Some of these prophecies were so specific and they were fulfilled in the life of Jesus to such a detail that it amazed me to see how God had taken hundreds of years of Jewish history to prepare the coming of the Messiah; prophecies ranging from Messiah's ancestery, his manner and place of birth, his life and ministry to the circumstances surrounding his death by crucifixion. I was very attracted to Christ and yet I could not deny my own tradition and past. Becoming Christian seemed a definite betrayal of my own family and Islamic heritage. The tension in my life was so strong that I felt torn asunder between these two faiths.

But I still could not bring myself to accept that Jesus was anything more than a human being. Since he had never explicitly said, "I am God and you must worship me," the Christian claim about Jesus was based on speculation and historically unreliable Gospels. Surely the incredible statements attributed to Jesus were invented by later Christians and put in the mouth of Jesus.


A Muslim Converts
In the midst of all this anxiety of thought, I woke up one morning and was suddenly struck by the meaning of a verse written by the prophet Isaiah in his ninth chapter. I had read this verse several weeks prior to that morning, but I had never understood its meaning. In Isaiah 7:14 we read,

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
Isaiah then goes on to write in chapter 9,


"[...] in the future he (God) will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan the people walking in darkness have seen a great light, on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned [...] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne [...] from that time on and forever."
I could not believe it! The fact that the Messiah was not going to be just a prophet but Mighty God himself, was therefore a truth that had been prophesied seven hundred years before Christ in the Old Testament, and not something that had been made up by Christians many years or centuries after Christ! It was God's own promise that he will come in flesh (Immanuel = God with us) and will establish a kingdom that will last forever.

I came to trust in Christ, the next day on January 20, 1985. I cried uncontrollably as I was praying and turning to Christ in faith. I did not know why, and though I had never felt much burden of guilt, I was feeling a great sense of peace and relief from the burden of my sins. A greater satisfaction was the sense of rest in finally finding the truth about God and His revelation of love to mankind in Jesus Christ. A book that helped me (and several other Muslim friends of mine who became Christians around the same time that I did) tremendously in answering many of my questions about the deity of Christ and the reliability of the New Testament documents was Josh McDowell's "Evidence That Demands A Verdict." I highly recommend it.

Soon after my own conversion, I decided to dedicate my entire life to promoting the Good News of Christ among Muslims and especially the people of my own country. I later came to the United States and received my undergraduate and graduate degrees in Biblical and Theological Studies. I also co-authored a book called Answering Islam: The Crescent in the Light of the Cross.

Abdul Saleeb, Ramadan of 1996
DarkGoku
gonzo wrote:
islam is...
Misunderstood.

Muslims bombed the towers. The world thinks that it's because they practice Islam. Well, murdering somebody - according to their holy book - gives you a ticket straight down south. And I don't mean Florida. Muslims hate the people who bombed the towers.
i_am_mine
I agree...misunderstood.

But to say that it does not approve of violence...nothing could be further from the truth.
DarkGoku
Well, the bad thing about the Koran is that everybody has a different interpretation of it. There isn't a leader to tell them what it means. So all opinions on the Koran are different. Some think that it tells them to kill, some say that it tells them to live peacefully.
i_am_mine
I would like to say I agree, but I can't.
It is not a matter of a few instances,rather aggression and violence is spread throughout.
AgenthHero
Quote:
Well, the bad thing about the Koran is that everybody has a different interpretation of it. There isn't a leader to tell them what it means. So all opinions on the Koran are different. Some think that it tells them to kill, some say that it tells them to live peacefully.


What are you talking about man. We have scholars that study hard through the quran and the narrations of the prophet p.b.u.h to get the meaning of what is said.

The Quran is unique, it has never been changed and it will never be changed. It is the words of god, it has been passed down to Prophet Muhammed through the angel. While the bible is something the priests change every year. Therefore the laws, the uniqeness, the religion is changed.
GDG
Excuse me i_am_mine: but is there any chance to give me the link to where you found some of these quotes about the Qur'an not being full. Thanks!!!

As for the different readings of Qur'an yes they exist! And even the Prophet Muhammad(SAW) had taught us all of them, he even used to read the qur'an in different ways sometimes. But that doesn't mean that it changes the meaning, what changes the meaning is when you have got a person who is not properly educated in the Arabic language or doesn't even know it. They try to translate it and in the end totally make a mockery of it, which is wrong.

in Islam, there are certain things you must have or have done to be able to become a Scholar of Islam, and one of them is to know perfect Arabic so that when you translate something you're not going to say "Oh i think thats what it means."

As for the Qur'an not being not being complete, that is just wrong and where ever you got that quote please show me the link - unless you made that up yourself. Because for one Abu Bakr, Umar Ibn Al-Khattab, Uthman Bin Affan, and Ali Ibn Abi-Talib were one of the best believers after the Prophet who were promised Jannah so i doubt it highly that they would do such a thing. That source is totally wrong!!!

As for the part that the punishment of fornicaters/ress or adulterers is missing from the Qur'an, Smile That is my friend totally wrong. If you check somethign before you just post you might actually prove it yourself that it is wrong.

If you go to Surah An - Nur(The Light)- 24, under verse 2-9 we see the punishment in detail to what should be done to them and those who accuse them and don't have 4 witnesses with them.

i will quote only some of it, because it is pretty long ayahs, but i will post the ayahs(verse) containing the punishments:

The Holy Qur'an wrote:

The fornicatress and the fornicater guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog(whip) each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law). 24:2

And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever, they indeed are the Fâsiqûn (liars, rebellious, disobedient to Allâh). 24:4

Except those who repent thereafter and do righteous deeds, (for such) verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 24:5


if you want the full verses please tell me and i will dedicate one whole post to them all, they are surah(chapter) 24 and ayah(verse) 2-9.

As for the screaming, then pardon my accusation. but i just wanted to tell you that when you posted that verse about marriage, i was trying to tell you that i had already posted it and explained it a bit to you. So please read my posts and explanations as they will stop from reposting, and spam!!!
GDG
sorry for the second post, just thought the first was long and didn't want to edit. But i_am_mine, it is in the english language that when you write someone's name, you must write it with a capital letter, whether in beginning or end or middle of sentence!!!
IslamicThinker
My Dear Friend I_Am_Mine,
If you wouldnt mind saying from what religion you are ...so that i can explain these things which you are unfortunately blatanly confused more clearly..O and please dont feel bad ..thats not my goal at all...I only hope to give you The Inside story of Islam And what being a true muslim means....I mean ishould know ive had an islamic upbringing and am a current muslim and hate to see muslims being sterotyped as these "Terrorists"..unfortunaytely ..at times on purpose .I surely see myself and all those muslims around me to be the same peaceful human beings who love for each other what we love for ourselves. Thank you again and as always your respnse is fully appreciated .


Exploding the myth

One of the many short comings which has arisen in the West, is judging Islam by the conduct of a minority of its people. By doing this, segments of Western society have deliberately played off the desperate actions of many Muslims, and have given it the name of Islam. Such behaviour is clearly not objective and seeks to distort the reality of Islam. For if such a thing was done - judge a religion by the conduct of its people - then we too could say that all Christianity is about is child molesting and homosexuality [1] whilst Hinduism was all about looting and breaking up mosques [2]. Generalising in such a manner is not seen as being objective, yet we find that the Western world is foremost in propagating this outlook on Islam. So what is the reality of Islam? How does one dispel the myths which have been created and spread so viciously? The only way to examine Islam is to simply examine its belief system. Look at its sources, the Qur'an and Sunna, and see what they have to say. This is the way to find the truth about what Islam says about terror, terrorism and terrorists. One who is sincerely searching for the truth, will do it no other way. The very name Islam comes from the Arabic root word 'salama' which means peace. Islam is a religion which is based upon achieving peace through the submission to the will of Allah. Thus, by this very simple linguistic definition, one can ascertain as to what the nature of this religion is. If such a religion is based on the notion of peace, then how is it that so many acts done by its adherents are contrary to peace? The answer is simple. Such actions, if not sanctioned by the religion, have no place with it. They are not Islamic and should not be thought of as Islamic.
DarkGoku
AgenthHero wrote:
Quote:
Well, the bad thing about the Koran is that everybody has a different interpretation of it. There isn't a leader to tell them what it means. So all opinions on the Koran are different. Some think that it tells them to kill, some say that it tells them to live peacefully.


What are you talking about man. We have scholars that study hard through the quran and the narrations of the prophet p.b.u.h to get the meaning of what is said.

The Quran is unique, it has never been changed and it will never be changed. It is the words of god, it has been passed down to Prophet Muhammed through the angel. While the bible is something the priests change every year. Therefore the laws, the uniqeness, the religion is changed.
I'm talking about the fact that you don't have any one person who says what it means. Take the pope, for instance.
GDG
We do have someone or at least had someone who told us what it means. The Prophet Muhammad(SAW) was our guide to understanding the Qur'an, when it was revealed to him he would also explain the meanings of those verses. And so that is why his companions or friends used to record so that generations after him would understand, that is why some of the Hadith(sayings of the Prphet Muhammad(SAW)) are actually targeting the Qur'anic verses.

but even today we have people who explain the Qur'an to us, our Scholars tell us what they truly mean. Take for example the colection of one scholar, the whole collection is called:

"Tafseer Ibn Katheer", it is like this set of 10 books where every verse in the Holy Qur'an si explained, and not only what he says but what the Prophet(SAW) said in his hadith's regarding that verse. So when you say that we dont have anyone who tells us what they mean you are wrong.

now let me just explain what Tefseer means, it is the word in the english dictonary as a detailed explanation of something. The set was based on the Knowledge of this one person, and the Hadith of the Prophet. But if you want some more proof that it is authentic meaning, then i will tell you know that the Hadith we're also an indirect communication from Allah(SWT), where Allah would relate something to the Prophet and he would say it, concerning any matters even the explanation of verses.
IslamicThinker
COULDNT HAVE SAID IT BETTER ...KEEP IT UP!!
Quote:

We do have someone or at least had someone who told us what it means. The Prophet Muhammad(SAW) was our guide to understanding the Qur'an, when it was revealed to him he would also explain the meanings of those verses. And so that is why his companions or friends used to record so that generations after him would understand, that is why some of the Hadith(sayings of the Prphet Muhammad(SAW)) are actually targeting the Qur'anic verses.

but even today we have people who explain the Qur'an to us, our Scholars tell us what they truly mean. Take for example the colection of one scholar, the whole collection is called:

"Tafseer Ibn Katheer", it is like this set of 10 books where every verse in the Holy Qur'an si explained, and not only what he says but what the Prophet(SAW) said in his hadith's regarding that verse. So when you say that we dont have anyone who tells us what they mean you are wrong.

now let me just explain what Tefseer means, it is the word in the english dictonary as a detailed explanation of something. The set was based on the Knowledge of this one person, and the Hadith of the Prophet. But if you want some more proof that it is authentic meaning, then i will tell you know that the Hadith we're also an indirect communication from Allah(SWT), where Allah would relate something to the Prophet and he would say it, concerning any matters even the explanation of verses.
[/quote]
GDG
Thanks for the compliment Islamic Thinker... Only doing my job to my Religion. Very Happy
Paul Knight
Religion - The cause of but not the solution to many of Life's problems.

I prefer beer. The cause of AND solution too many of life's problems.

My suggestion is the Islamic world introduce Alcohol and get merry for a change.

It dunt ert! Rolling Eyes
GDG
Actually Paul Knight it will hurt since it was prohibited to us to drink alcohol. But not right away, first it was like don't drink infront of other people, then in Masjid and then final forbidden.

But anyhow, Alcohol only causes more problmes cause it makes you forget everything that is why you say it is good. But did you ever think of looking up what the bad factors are in it, many maybe even more since we are still researching them.

As you can see, we Muslims knew that it was a problem to our health before science told everybody!!!
Very Happy But im not stopping you from drinking, i mean its your body and you do what you want.
IslamicThinker
I just saw youre post and wanted to give you a peice of advice as far as alcohol and beer go. Oh and by the way ...I only mean well. Here is the story of a previous drinker and drug ridden guy...many thanks for reading it.

Quote:
"Profile of An Alcoholic And Drug Abuser....

Instead of writing at length the problems of drugs and alcohol in youths of America, which cost the nation billions of dollars, and cost mothers their sons and dauqhters (MADD), I think it will be bette if I print an autobiography of one of my patients (19 years old, white female, upper class, name withheld). She writes ...

"When I was in high school, my friends and I began to experiment with marijuana. After the excitement of smoking pot became "old hat", we began to try different drugs - such as hash and THC. Pretty soon cocaine and LSD were introduced to us and it was common place to go to any party "high" on one or more of these drugs.

Several times, I had very frightening experiences. Specifically one night, after taking LSD I went home (to my parent's home) before my "high" was over. Usually, I stayed overnight with a friend who "tripped" with me. On this night, my boyfriend and I broke up right after I took the LSD, so I went home alone. Mv parents were asleep in the next room and I felt that I had to be very quiet, so as not to wake them. I was afraid to make any noise , plus I was upset over the breakup of my relationship with my boyfriend.

When the LSD took effect, I was very frightened. The walls looked as though they were melting: I heard strange noises; I hallucinated, even after closing my eyes. The sights were very unpleasant and frightening images. But l couldn't do anything but lie in bed, waiting for the drug to wear off. I didn't think I could tell my parents, since I knew I had taken an illegal and dangerous drug- I was awake nearly all night, scared to death with no one to talk to.

For days after this incident, I was nervous and jumpy and depressed. The incident was a major shock to my system and one that I would never want to repeat.

I stopped taking "drugs" immediately after my senior year in high school- (I had only discovered drugs at the beginning of the school year). But, I guess the stage was set off for my future reactions. Drugs did not help - they were just for fun at first - but then once the "high" was gone, there was a real "let down" feeling that followed.

So we'd either do more drugs or drink a few beers to make that feeling go away. Even now, whenever I get down or "stressed out"- the first thing I do is have a few drinks. The day after is always unpleasant if I have had too many drinks - so the opportunity for a vicious cycle is there. I honestly believe that the "harmless" experiments with marijuana, several years ago, may have been the start of this tendency to turn to alcohol today. The bottom line is, I'd be a hundred times better off today - happier and wealthier if drugs had never entered my life years ago.
"
IslamicThinker
I just want to point that the above subject is linking drugs to his now badd use of alcohol. Thanks
IslamicThinker
My friends who drink here is a good peice of evidence whivh prooves that drinking is baddddddd!

Quote:
Everybody would admit that there are problems with alcohol. Drink driving for example. Or violent crimes in which alcohol abuse plays a part. Yet most agree that the moderate consumption of alcohol as is customary in our society does not do much harm. Let's take a hard look at the facts:


The Facts

Alcohol is a bigger problem than we tend to admit, and it starts at an early age. According to the government publications on the state of pubic health (1993)

# 20% of 9 to 15 year olds have had their first alcoholic drink by the age of 8, and
# 89% by the age of 15. 12% (more than one tenth!) of 11 to 15 year olds are regular drinkers.

And according to "Social Trends" ( HMSO 1994), almost a third of the males living in Britain consume alcohol above sensible limits (consumption above sensible limits is lower in women with 11% of the total).

Besides clear convictions for drunkenness or drink driving, courts are kept busy with numerous offenses committed under the influence of alcohol, from domestic violence (including child battering) to serious vandalism or grievous bodily harm.

The government's health and safety executive jointly with the health departments and departments of employment had to publish policies on the "problem drinker at work", and the National Health Service spends large amounts of scarce resources on illnesses caused or exacerbated by alcohol.

Every Christmas there is a nationwide campaign against drink driving.

Governmental representatives lament the state of the nation's health and drinking habits, but they don't do much more: There is a great deal of tax revenue in the sale of alcoholic beverages.



The Islamic View

Islam takes a different view. It values the moral and spiritual health of a nation as much as it's physical well being. It considers anything that interferes with the normal working of the mind, numb our senses, thereby reducing our level of shame or responsibility, or clouds or perception as harmful (this includes alcohol as well as other drugs altering the mind).

And recognising that different people react quite differently to the same stimulant, it does not leave judgment, as to how much is acceptable to them. Too many people thought they had control over their drinking habit, yet endued up having "one glass too many".

Islam categorically states that if a substance can destroy the clarity of the mind in large quantities, it is harmful even in minute quantities. Islam, therefore, advocates a total prohibition of narcotic drugs, including alcohol. It forbids the use, not just the abuse of these substances.


Another Prohibition

Many would by now point to the prohibition period in America and how it utterly failed by driving the habit underground. As God is aware of human nature, Islam acknowledges how entrenched such habits can be in people and that they cannot be changes overnight. The gradual prohibition of alcohol has to go hand in hand with an educational campaign to build a moral awareness and spiritual identity in our society.

When Islam was first established over fourteen centuries ago in Arabia, continuing the Judeo-Christian tradition of prophets from Abraham over Moses, Jesus to Muhammad peace be upon them all, the harm that alcohol caused was well recognised, but it was not immediately eradicated.

In a first revelation, the Qur'an the Holy Book for Muslims, acknowledged the benefits of alcohol, (as now proven by modern medicine that small amounts of alcohol are beneficial to the body) but pointed out that it's harms out weighed those benefits by far. (Click HERE to read more about this)

Next, it forbade believers from praying whilst under the influence of alcohol, thus making it clear that spirituality and drunkenness don't mix.

Finally, many years later, was altogether prohibited as the handiwork of the devil. By the early Muslims who had lived through the spiritual and moral teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) had realised the harms of the drug as well as the benefits of the Islamic system of values as the foundation of a strong and caring society.

They happily spilled whatever alcoholic beverages was left in their possession, and the streets of Medinah were reported as having been awash with the stuff.


Saving Society

Modern society has come a long way since those days. We pride ourselves of great technical achievements. Yet we have also fallen back into the evils of drunkenness and the harm it does to so many people, because we have lost our moral conscience and sense of direction.

We forgot that there is more to human civilisation than material advancement. Drained of true humanity, many seek escape and consolation in drink and drugs.

However, this situation is not irreversible. Whilst the hypocritical approach of the American prohibition, where the law enforcement agencies collided with gangster syndicates, was bound to fail, Islam shows the way how a pure and content society can be built which need not be ashamed of its darker side and need not numb its senses in guilt and desperation.

Next time, before you tend to drown your worries in another glass, to be followed by another and yet another, put it down and find out about the Islamic alternative.
GDG
Thanks for the post, its pretty cool story and sad in a way. A well thats what happens I guess when you don't listen to parents or elders.
IslamicThinker
You got it GDG Keep It UP!!
mOrpheuS
IslamicThinker wrote:
Exploding the myth

One of the many short comings which has arisen in the West, is judging Islam by the conduct of a minority of its people. By doing this, segments of Western society have deliberately played off the desperate actions of many Muslims, and have given it the name of Islam. Such behaviour is clearly not objective and seeks to distort the reality of Islam. For if such a thing was done - judge a religion by the conduct of its people - then we too could say that all Christianity is about is child molesting and homosexuality [1] whilst Hinduism was all about looting and breaking up mosques [2]. Generalising in such a manner is not seen as being objective, yet we find that the Western world is foremost in propagating this outlook on Islam. So what is the reality of Islam? How does one dispel the myths which have been created and spread so viciously? The only way to examine Islam is to simply examine its belief system. Look at its sources, the Qur'an and Sunna, and see what they have to say. This is the way to find the truth about what Islam says about terror, terrorism and terrorists. One who is sincerely searching for the truth, will do it no other way. The very name Islam comes from the Arabic root word 'salama' which means peace. Islam is a religion which is based upon achieving peace through the submission to the will of Allah. Thus, by this very simple linguistic definition, one can ascertain as to what the nature of this religion is. If such a religion is based on the notion of peace, then how is it that so many acts done by its adherents are contrary to peace? The answer is simple. Such actions, if not sanctioned by the religion, have no place with it. They are not Islamic and should not be thought of as Islamic.


Now I'm not saying that you are too lazy to write,
but please put any copied article within the [ quote ][ /quote ] tags.
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=63
IslamicThinker
I had meant to put it in quote however...something must have gone wrong.
Dante
The Swedish state sets fairly storng limits on alcohol consumption,becuase it dislikes the harmful effects on its population, the domestic violence involved and the price of healthcare for people with drink problems.

However this does not make Sweden an Islamic state.

Why are we obsessing on the issue of alcohol. I'm not sure we can decide if 'Islam' is good or bad, because there are too many Muslims practising it in too many different ways. I think we can agree there are some very bad states in the Middle East, but not all of them are Islamic, and quite a few of them e.g. Saudi Arabia, are propped up by the west, so not a good case study of how civilised 'we' are compared to 'them.'

What I'd like to know is why are we so concerned about Islam in the first place? Surely we should be focussing on the politics behind these atrocities instead.
GDG
Morpheus, you are right that there are many different ways of practising Islam. But let me tell you now, that all those ways which are different from the teachings of the Qur'an or the Sunnah are false.

In Islam we call them different sects(religious body), and anyone who makes anything different from the religion of Islam is called Bid'a(making things in Islam!!!).

So as you can see, it is wrong to change, and all those that do are following the wrong teachings. And yes almost all Muslim countries in the Middle East are corrupted because of what America and Britain have done. That is why in Afghanistan, the Taliban started to follow once again the pure teachings of Islam and that is why America attacked them, because they are scared of what Muslims are capable of doing and what we did.

If you want to get a clearer picture of what i mean in the last statement, then wait a second for my next post, i am trying to find something(a picture of the Islamic state before America, Britain and France divided it).

Oh and no one said that Sweden was a Muslim state!!!
IslamicThinker
Sorry If Any of my Christian friends get offended...but knowing more about christianity ...the stuff no onw talks about...especially if one was Christian.....couldnt possibly hurt ...could it?.......Thanks Friends

Quote:
Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Jehovah's Witness and the Mormon religions have irreconcilable differences among them. Even among the fundamentalists themselves, there is scant unity. Consequently, Christianity has become, perhaps, the most sect infested religion in the world today. Christians in America in particular have thoroughly personalized their faith. In this situation, calling some one a heretic is like denying him the 1st Amendment.
mOrpheuS
GDG wrote:
Morpheus, you are right that there are many different ways of practising Islam.

Beg your pardon.
I'm not very sure I ever said anything like that.

never mind though. Rolling Eyes
drtvats0n
Well it's pretty obvious, isn't it, that Islam is just going through a bad phase in its development right now. It's not the only religion that contains the seeds of savagery; it's all a question of whether or not those seeds are allowed to flower by those in charge of interpreting the relevant texts.

Christianity has been through this phase many times. Hindus have also been known to kill for their faith. I wonder about Buddhists?
withaar
drtvats0n wrote:
I wonder about Buddhists?

As far as I know buddhism is the only truly peaceful religion.
GDG
withaar wrote:
drtvats0n wrote:
I wonder about Buddhists?

As far as I know buddhism is the only truly peaceful religion.


As far as i know, they don't really do anything except sit and meditate, and then go into the fields and plant. Thats not really a life, and for that matter not a very good religion. Tell me something, is religion not a way of life. I mean in the Qur'an we Muslims are taught on how to live our life. Jews have the same with their Holy Book, and so do the Christians.

withaar wrote:
Well it's pretty obvious, isn't it, that Islam is just going through a bad phase in its development right now. It's not the only religion that contains the seeds of savagery; it's all a question of whether or not those seeds are allowed to flower by those in charge of interpreting the relevant texts.

Christianity has been through this phase many times. Hindus have also been known to kill for their faith. I wonder about Buddhists?


The only problem to that statement is why we people still call those wrongdoers Muslims, or Christians, or even Jews. I mean if they have gone against the religion then they aren't really of that religion anymore. I mean if you do something wrong towards your nation, like a spy against your country and they find out, they will either put you in jail or kick you out of the country and take away your citizenship!! Am i right???
withaar
GDG wrote:
withaar wrote:
drtvats0n wrote:
I wonder about Buddhists?

As far as I know buddhism is the only truly peaceful religion.


As far as i know, they don't really do anything except sit and meditate, and then go into the fields and plant. Thats not really a life, and for that matter not a very good religion.

I would be very careful berating perhaps the only religion in the world that can state with honesty that it is true to its own tenets. It is pretty clear, also from your attempt to verbally diminish buddhism as a religion, that you have a very clear opinion of what The Good Religion is. If all religious people would focus on their own problems, indeed meditate and tend their (own) garden, there would be a lot less blood on their collective metaphysical hands. And just to make sure, I certainly include christianity in that lineup.

GDG wrote:
withaar wrote:
Well it's pretty obvious, isn't it, that Islam is just going through a bad phase in its development right now. It's not the only religion that contains the seeds of savagery; it's all a question of whether or not those seeds are allowed to flower by those in charge of interpreting the relevant texts.

Christianity has been through this phase many times. Hindus have also been known to kill for their faith. I wonder about Buddhists?


This is not me - please do not misquote. Like you I dislike having words put in my mouth.

GDG wrote:
The only problem to that statement is why we people still call those wrongdoers Muslims, or Christians, or even Jews. I mean if they have gone against the religion then they aren't really of that religion anymore. I mean if you do something wrong towards your nation, like a spy against your country and they find out, they will either put you in jail or kick you out of the country and take away your citizenship!! Am i right???

You are wrong. I think what drtvats0n was getting at is that religion has inspired much bloodshed, hatred, and intolerance. I am glad you would then exclude such people from your religion, but I doubt very much that the christian crusaders or the suicide bombers are not extremely religious, zealous.

I would not be so un-nuanced as to say that islam is bad because of what some of its practitioners do, but to turn around and say that you personally don't consider them islam anymore is too simple. You created a new box and declared it to be outside of the scope of your debate. I am much more interested in hearing how you would convince such a person not to go and kill others, or perhaps try to live rather than die for their political cause.
GDG
[quote='Withaar"]
GDG wrote:
withaar wrote:
Well it's pretty obvious, isn't it, that Islam is just going through a bad phase in its development right now. It's not the only religion that contains the seeds of savagery; it's all a question of whether or not those seeds are allowed to flower by those in charge of interpreting the relevant texts.

Christianity has been through this phase many times. Hindus have also been known to kill for their faith. I wonder about Buddhists?


This is not me - please do not misquote. Like you I dislike having words put in my mouth.
[/quote]

Then please state who said it rather than saying it was you, I'm not saying something against you I'm just warning you that someone might use that against you i fhes not nice, like me Very Happy !!!

Withaar wrote:

I am much more interested in hearing how you would convince such a person not to go and kill others, or perhaps try to live rather than die for their political cause.


I guess in answer to this question, i would try to tell them that in a way they might go to hell if they're killing innocent people. Because we as Muslims are not allowed to kill Women, children, or those that are not fighting. Only soldiers. We are also not allowed to destroy homes, buildings, farms and anything related to that city. So in a way these "suicide bombers" are doing an evil act if tehy go on and kill innocent people, they should aim there attacks on the soldiers who killed their people!
valient
actually we have to search abt wht islam actualy is b4 start saying anything abt it wht we dnt know.
Islam is the only religion which tell us the whole way to live our life with peace . Islam is an Arabic word that is linguistically derived from silm or salamah; it denotes peace, wholeness, and submission. As a religion, Islam teaches us that it is only through submission to God's will that we can find true peace—peace within ourselves, peace with fellow humans, as well as peace with God's creation.

and i dont even know why the media name the suicide bombing "jihad". Almost all islamic Scholars are agreed the these suicide bombers killing innocent childerns and women are not Muslims.
withaar
GDG wrote:
Then please state who said it rather than saying it was you, I'm not saying something against you I'm just warning you that someone might use that against you i fhes not nice, like me Very Happy !!!

Just to humour you I checked again, it is your mistake. Just check up above, you can find the original name in my post.
GDG wrote:
Withaar wrote:

I am much more interested in hearing how you would convince such a person not to go and kill others, or perhaps try to live rather than die for their political cause.

I guess in answer to this question, i would try to tell them that in a way they might go to hell if they're killing innocent people. Because we as Muslims are not allowed to kill Women, children, or those that are not fighting. Only soldiers. We are also not allowed to destroy homes, buildings, farms and anything related to that city. So in a way these "suicide bombers" are doing an evil act if tehy go on and kill innocent people, they should aim there attacks on the soldiers who killed their people!

This is a comforting thought. I hope you talk to many people.
GDG
valient wrote:
actually we have to search abt wht islam actualy is b4 start saying anything abt it wht we dnt know.
Islam is the only religion which tell us the whole way to live our life with peace . Islam is an Arabic word that is linguistically derived from silm or salamah; it denotes peace, wholeness, and submission. As a religion, Islam teaches us that it is only through submission to God's will that we can find true peace—peace within ourselves, peace with fellow humans, as well as peace with God's creation.

and i dont even know why the media name the suicide bombing "jihad". Almost all islamic Scholars are agreed the these suicide bombers killing innocent childerns and women are not Muslims.


I like your post above. Is the truth and will never be wronged, also I hope that i will get to talk to many people who think suicide bombings are ok, hopefull WIthaar - thanks for the support!!! Very Happy
benwhite
There is a distinction many are missing here from the very beginning of this thread: people who are part of larger group or state don't necessarily agree with the actions of others in the group or the group itself.

Example: Democrats who don't support the war in Iraq. When people say Americans oil-hungry warmongers, that isn't really true. Some may be. The president may be. But generalizations of this type are, as a rule, stupid.

Blaming Islam as a religion because its extremists cause violence is equally wrong. Much of christian and jewish law has many of the same things that we consider barbaric. Read the Bible closely, and you'll find all kinds of gems you never knew were there. Hate to break it to anyone who hates other religions, but it's no secret that islam, christianity, and judaism bear a little more than just a passing resemblence to each other.

Furthermore, we need look no farther than events like the Crusades or the inquisition to see that Christians too inflict violence on those of different faith. the jews killed in Spain certainly did nothing to deserve the treatment. This was done by Catholics, who despite receiving interpretation from one person, certainly didn't use it in well. It never says in either testament that "thou shalt burn the jews." (by the way, Hitler was not jewish. He had a jewish grandmother, and detested this portion of his bloodline). In the bible itself God commands the Jews to wipe out entire cities of nonbelievers (Look at Samuel I). None of the big three monotheistic religions are free from this history of violence.

One final comment. Of the three, each has experienced a particular period of violence that rises above the rest, roughly 1500 years after inception. The jews' is documented in the bible. The christians in the middle ages and into the renaissance. Islam coincides with the present. There is no reason to think that common trends are indicative of the nature of Islam or its future.
nam_siddharth
Flower Powder wrote:
Islam is not a progressist religion.... Still it looks like all monotheist religions have the same problem.


No religion is progressive. A man can be progressive, only if he do not follow any religion. Religions always force you do believe, what that particular religion says.

For example, Christ says "I'm the only truth". Vedas(Ancient Aryan texts which are followed by Hindus) says "Universe is created by Brahma". Quran says "There is only one GOD, and Muhammad is his last prophet".

None of above can be believed by a progressive person.

Buddhism is not a religion, it is Dhamma. Dhamma is a Pali word which mean "way of moral life". It does not force you to believe any doctrine. It is collection of moral teachings of Buddha.

Buddha says "Man creates everything. All our griefs, perils and misfortunes are of our own creation. We spring from no other source than our own imperfection of heart and mind. We are the results of our good and bad actions committed in the past under the influence of greed and delusion. And since we ourselves brought them into being, it is within our power to overcome bad effects and cultivate good natures.

Knowing that no external sources, no faith or rituals can save him, the Buddhist feels the need to rely on his own efforts. He gains confidence through self-reliance. He realizes that the whole responsibility of his present life as well as his future life depends completely on himself alone. Each must seek salvation for himself. Achieving salvation can be compared to curing a disease: if one is ill, one must go to a doctor. The doctor diagnose the ailment and prescribes medicine. The medicine must be taken by the person himself. He cannot depute someone else to take the medicine for him. No one can be cured by simply admiring the medicine or just praising the doctor for his good prescription.
GDG
nam_siddharth wrote:

Buddha says "Man creates everything. All our griefs, perils and misfortunes are of our own creation. We spring from no other source than our own imperfection of heart and mind. We are the results of our good and bad actions committed in the past under the influence of greed and delusion. And since we ourselves brought them into being, it is within our power to overcome bad effects and cultivate good natures.


Funny how Islam states the same things 'NAM'. In Islam we believe that Man can only save himself, and that God is only there to judge us and how hard we worked for Paradise. It's not like God will save us or anything, for all the good work we do we get a good reward and prize in the end. That is how Islam works, you should read about it a bit, there might be some similarities to Bhuddism.
i_am_mine
Sorry for not being active on this thread as promised. I seemed to stop getting email notifications of posts from frihost for some reason.Hope to post soon...
i_am_mine
benwhite wrote:
There is a distinction many are missing here from the very beginning of this thread: people who are part of larger group or state don't necessarily agree with the actions of others in the group or the group itself.

Example: Democrats who don't support the war in Iraq. When people say Americans oil-hungry warmongers, that isn't really true. Some may be. The president may be. But generalizations of this type are, as a rule, stupid.

Blaming Islam as a religion because its extremists cause violence is equally wrong. Much of christian and jewish law has many of the same things that we consider barbaric. Read the Bible closely, and you'll find all kinds of gems you never knew were there. Hate to break it to anyone who hates other religions, but it's no secret that islam, christianity, and judaism bear a little more than just a passing resemblence to each other.

Furthermore, we need look no farther than events like the Crusades or the inquisition to see that Christians too inflict violence on those of different faith. the jews killed in Spain certainly did nothing to deserve the treatment. This was done by Catholics, who despite receiving interpretation from one person, certainly didn't use it in well. It never says in either testament that "thou shalt burn the jews." (by the way, Hitler was not jewish. He had a jewish grandmother, and detested this portion of his bloodline). In the bible itself God commands the Jews to wipe out entire cities of nonbelievers (Look at Samuel I). None of the big three monotheistic religions are free from this history of violence.

One final comment. Of the three, each has experienced a particular period of violence that rises above the rest, roughly 1500 years after inception. The jews' is documented in the bible. The christians in the middle ages and into the renaissance. Islam coincides with the present. There is no reason to think that common trends are indicative of the nature of Islam or its future.


My thoughts precisely.This is probably the most intelligent, usefull and insightful post so far.
GDG
benwhite, i also liked your post. And i agree, not all Muslims including myself agree with what those 'extremists' are doing. As i stated before, they aren't doing Jihad, they think they are but they aren't and almost all scholars of Islam have agreed, yet they don't listen!!!

As Muslims we are not allowed to kill innocent people, or children or anybody not related to war or fighting against you for they might just as you be against what their people are doing.

Furthermore, all religions have had more than problem in the past. When Islam started we were prosecuted with boycott, we were beaten to death. Kicked out of our homes and then we were being chased by those that kicked us out.

Jews were slaves to the Ancient Egyptians, they were put in concentration camps during Hitlers time and many other times.

But one religion that has not been really affected, and if i am wrong please correct me with atleast one incident. Christianity has never in what i have heard been under any problem in the past or present. Now i am not saying that they caused this, and im sure they didn't but coudl someone tell me what happened to them - although i know the true story non of you would believe it!!!
nam_siddharth
GDG wrote:
nam_siddharth wrote:

Buddha says "Man creates everything. All our griefs, perils and misfortunes are of our own creation. We spring from no other source than our own imperfection of heart and mind. We are the results of our good and bad actions committed in the past under the influence of greed and delusion. And since we ourselves brought them into being, it is within our power to overcome bad effects and cultivate good natures.


Funny how Islam states the same things 'NAM'. In Islam we believe that Man can only save himself, and that God is only there to judge us and how hard we worked for Paradise. It's not like God will save us or anything, for all the good work we do we get a good reward and prize in the end. That is how Islam works, you should read about it a bit, there might be some similarities to Bhuddism.


There may be some similary in Islam and Buddhism, as you say. But the base of for are completely opposite of each other. Where Buddhism says to decide a person himself, what is right and what is wrong; Islam force their followers to believe blindly, what the Quran says. In muslim countries, if a person says anything against Quran or Muhhammad, he is killed cruelly. He has not right to discuss anything about morals. What muhhammad has said is the rule there. even a normal comment is not allowed on Muhhammad.
saiyeek
earthchild wrote:
Gonzo is grouping all muslims together.

Hitler was supposedly Christian right... well It's like grouping Hitler together with all other christians.

Does this qualify as Flaming? I'm just rying to get a clear understanding of the rules.

I firmly suppory your view.
i_am_mine
Radical view points, or being prejudiced may be wrong, but we can't call it flaming.
Being rascist however, isn't tolerated.Atleast I don't think it should be.
GDG
nam_siddharth wrote:
GDG wrote:
nam_siddharth wrote:

Buddha says "Man creates everything. All our griefs, perils and misfortunes are of our own creation. We spring from no other source than our own imperfection of heart and mind. We are the results of our good and bad actions committed in the past under the influence of greed and delusion. And since we ourselves brought them into being, it is within our power to overcome bad effects and cultivate good natures.


Funny how Islam states the same things 'NAM'. In Islam we believe that Man can only save himself, and that God is only there to judge us and how hard we worked for Paradise. It's not like God will save us or anything, for all the good work we do we get a good reward and prize in the end. That is how Islam works, you should read about it a bit, there might be some similarities to Bhuddism.


There may be some similary in Islam and Buddhism, as you say. But the base of for are completely opposite of each other. Where Buddhism says to decide a person himself, what is right and what is wrong; Islam force their followers to believe blindly, what the Quran says. In muslim countries, if a person says anything against Quran or Muhhammad, he is killed cruelly. He has not right to discuss anything about morals. What muhhammad has said is the rule there. even a normal comment is not allowed on Muhhammad.


Not exactly NAM. You should first read the history of Islam before saying something like that. In Islam we are given choice, people are given free will. And in the Qur'an it gives us many options to choose from, now which ever path you take you will recieve that reward. If you do a lot you will get a very good reward. If you do average you will get a good reward. But if you do bad, you will get a sin, until you dont repent(asking Allah/God for help).

And as for those people who say that you get killed for saying something against the Qur'an. You are not killed, if you say something against any of them, the Qur'an or Prophet Muhammad(SAW) you are not KILLED!!! That is your problem, and our Prophet(SAW) said that anything you say to someone else as in characteristic or description, you are defining yourself.

Now adays the rules are not followed anymore. And i have never heard anything about a cruel death if you discriminate Qur'an. And we are allowed to discuss our religion, if we are wrong and/or we are not sure about something we go to a Scholar of Islam and we ask him to explain it to us. Concerning normal comments on Prophet Muhammad(SAW), every body hates to hear there favourite person being discriminated. I mean am i right, but in Islam we don't kill that person for saying it we just tell him it's not nice or right what he is saying!!!

Please read teh history of Islam, and a bit about Islam before just saying something.
i_am_mine
Islam has gone through several changes through its history, and though it remains for a majority a "hardlined" religion, it has adopted a moderate face in several places as well.
But to equate its teachings with those of Buddhism would be nothing short of stupidity ( I mean nothing personal here, only to state the difference is wider than you state ).
The tolerance, and the spirit of questioning ( everything ), and the language with which it is described in Buddhism is leagues away from that of Islam, infact Buddhism even encourages you to doubt the existence of God ( believing that you must ask whatever questions your soul seeks ), even repeatedly, furthermore it proposes that whatever answer you find ( on you own and hence you may hear the phrases " your path ", " your jouney " a lot in Buddhism ) - that brings peace to you, should be adopted - hence extremely different from one of Islam's and infact Islam's pillar or basis for faith - that there is only one god [Buddhism does not promote polytheism but instead the form of god or philosophy may be different from one person to another ], one answer and those answers lie not in the person but in the rules and laws laid down in only one book
You should read up on Buddhism before suggesting that the two are intimately alike.The Abrahamic religions are interlinked [ Islam,Christianity,Judaism ] and hence they have common features [ rituals, beliefs such as The Day Of Judgement, Satan and God, Heaven and hell, in short a common history ] however religions based on Hinduism, as also on popularly known " Spirit " or mythical religions such as Shinto [ found in Japan ] do not even clearly denote Satan,do not promote the idea of A Judgement Day ( a fundamental and necessary idea for Muslims ) and instead promote the idea of rebirth.
Also these "old world" ( a term given for classification purposes only ) do not punish [in harsh or mild words ] unbelievers/heathens as Abrahamic religions do.Not a single instance of this occurs in the texts of any of these religions.
I could sum up all that has been said here:

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
- The Buddha


Quote:

Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.


That itself marks out the deep divide between the philosophy of the two religions.
GDG
I_am_mine, i wasn't saying that they are exactly alike, i was trying to say that they are in some ways similar. Of course they are totally different, one states belief in God, while the other denotes this and encourages 'athiesm'.

But what i want to comment in this post is not about that, so totally forget that. I wanted to say something about your quote from Buddha:

Buddha wrote:
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
- The Buddha


If you ever wondered how Islam spread all the way to India, Pakistan, China and those countires of Asia i will explain now using the quote above since that is exactly what happened.

For a moment, when Islam sort of stopped spreading and even in the time of spreading there were lot;s of trades between different nations. Well Muslims used to go to Asia to get there spices, and necessary silk or other goods. The people of Asia had found that of all the people that had come to them from otehr natiosn, Muslims were the most pious, and good mannered of all. They didn't cheat them of price, thwy always politely asked and waited for there turn that in the end many people accepted Islam not because we sent an army to attack them but because of those traders that had dealed with them.
What i want to say is that, when Buddha said that you should observe and if you see reason than go with it. So if these people accepted Islam and some of them were most probably Buddhists, than that means that Islam was something different, a peaceful religion that caused non and didn't want any harm to befall any people. If you don't believe what i tell you, research it a bit in books and from google about 'The spreading of Islam in Asia'.

Thank you for the quote i_am_mine. Oh and welcome back to the thread!Very Happy
i_am_mine
Thank you for the warm welcome Smile

Well the post was mainly concerned with the similarity of Islam and Buddhism and so I posted accordingly.

Also as far as trade in Asia was concerned with respect to the Islamic nations of the middle east, most of it was with India.It must be noted here that the geographic boundaries of India then was vey different from what it was now.Indians who practised the many flavors of Hinduism traded with Muslim nations, however this was not the main factor for the spread of Islam through South-eastern Asia.Also to be noted here is that the Hindus were forced to limit themselves to the sub-continent because of the religious taboo of travelling abroad ( which was entirely baseless ), and therefore were forced to trade on land, this is also one of the reasons why hinduism was not spread zealously in missionary style, and the only converts were those of choice.

What lead to its spread was instead the Muslim world's conquering of the Hindu empire.It began at first with Muslim raids on the Northern regions of India, these raids were purely for monetary benefit i.e., gold,spices(which was India's main trade item ),precious stones ( in one case an entire throne was carried it away, it is said to be, historically, the most costliest throne ever made - " The Peacock Throne " ).Famous raiders inculude Ghauri and Ghaznavi ( I fail to recollect their complete names at this point of time ) , it is also for the same reason that Pakistan has named their present medium range missile systems after these two famous raiders that plundered the thriving Hindu empire.

However, later these raids turned to full scale crusades, aimed not at robbing but at the actual conquering of India.Needless to say, you must know they were successful.I will spare you the complete history of these crusades.

It was during this period that the Islam was spread, mainly due to the subjugation of the native Hindus, some examples: Hindus were to pay tax to practise their religion, additional taxes such as the Jizya tax ( poll tax ) were to be paid by non-muslims, prisoners of war as also criminals were forgiven provided they converted ( against the option of death ).Rulers destroyed Temples at regular intervals, some used this option as a reply to insurgency, the most famous example being that of the city Allahabad where not a single temple was left standing.Exhorbitant taxes were also demanded for hindu pilgrimages to holy places.Famous for such acts were Jahangir and Aurangzeb.Jahangir liked Hindu festivals but promoted mass conversion to Islam; he persecuted the followers of Jainism and even executed Guru Arjun Das, the fifth saint-teacher of the Sikhs (see Sikhism ).Most conversions were forced, similar to those of the Jews during the times of the Prophet.

Also,Buddhism does not encourage Atheism, it is only ( I'm guessing, no offense intended ) your mindset that leads you to think that questioning God, questioning tradition means that you are an atheist, instead this questioning leads you to know yourself, be rid of all doubt and your faith grows stronger.

Note to moderators: Its censoring out the word Peakok ( had to change the spelling, I mean the bird, you know ), as in " Peakok Throne "
i_am_mine
I had missed out on this thread.I was just going through all the replies to my posts in this thread and thought I'd reply to all of them now...
Well I had said I'd post the verses in full ( I still remember Smile ) its just that I've been very busy, forgive me if I take a bit longer.

Also:
GDG said:
Quote:
Excuse me i_am_mine: but is there any chance to give me the link to where you found some of these quotes about the Qur'an not being full. Thanks!!!


I'll post them to you asap, right now my the bookmarks and the e-books are on my desktop, and the monitor has just zonked out ( thats 2 flat screen monitors in a span of 2 years damnit ), and I will send as soon as a switch.

Thanks.
i_am_mine
IslamicThinker
Quote:
My Dear Friend I_Am_Mine,
If you wouldnt mind saying from what religion you are ...so that i can explain these things which you are unfortunately blatanly confused more clearly..O and please dont feel bad ..thats not my goal at all...I only hope to give you The Inside story of Islam And what being a true muslim means....I mean ishould know ive had an islamic upbringing and am a current muslim and hate to see muslims being sterotyped as these "Terrorists"..unfortunaytely ..at times on purpose .I surely see myself and all those muslims around me to be the same peaceful human beings who love for each other what we love for ourselves. Thank you again and as always your respnse is fully appreciated .


IslamicThinker, and GDG first of all thank you for starting to see that my arguments are only objective, nothing I say here is biased, nor is at a form of agression, this is much better than in the beginning, when you thought that I had something personal against Islam. I assure you, some of my best friends are muslim.

Secondly, IslamicThinker, you don't have to put forth the argument on the "stereotyping" of muslims as terrorists, I agree with you.However there has been good reason for the world to do this, and an attempt must be made by the Islamic world to get rid of these reasons.And my points precisely has been that it will be much very hard for muslims to do this because, you must admit, that the Qu'ran has a great deal of aggression ( I will not deny that I'm toning down my words ), a great deal of hate towards those who do not embrace it.As much as you would like to deny it, it is true. As much I would like to say that it is a religion of peace, it is not.

However every society evolves ( even though the religion does not ), Christianity too had its days of violence, the subjugation of the natives of the South America, the witch hunts across America and Europe, the in-fighting between the Spaniards and English - protestants and catholics ( both " Kafirs " to each other...*sigh* the ironies of religions ).And even Islamic societies will evolve, though it will be a rougher process, since Christianity, even though it has its own verses of "hardness", Islam has a far greater share, which means their toning down will take longer.
GDG
I_am_mine, i didn't ask fro the postings i asked for link where you got them, but that isn't what i want to reply to. Firstly, i suppose that it is sad that you are backbitting on your friends who you said were Muslims, i suppose they don't know that you hate their religion.

Secondly, where is your proof that Islam forced the captive soldiers to accept Islam or die, for the truth is we freed them all. The only time we kept the soldiers prisoner for a while was when/ or during the first battle of Islam, The Battle of Badr where the Prophet said to release all the prisoners except those who were literate so that they could teach the Muslims who were illiterate or the children in Medina.

Jizyah tax was to be paid by the non-Muslims for a good reason. Since they were going to live in a country that was runned by the teachings of Islam and the Sunnah(Ways of the Prophet) of the Prophet Muhammad(SAW), then of course they woudl need protection. They used teh Jizyah to pay the weaponery and rides for the army, just as we pay the taxes today in like Canada for example. They are not only for like food, clothign and stuff that money will be used for eveything including the protection of the citizens of the country!!!

As for the tax being payed by Hindus to worship their religion, that never existed in the rule of Islam and never will, because we are taught to respect other religions just as we respect ours and other people. And i seriously believe that the statement you said about Muslims destroying religious temples other than ours came form what you heard in the news. The Jews are saying that Muslims destroyed their temple and built Masjid Al-Aqsa, well for your information that temple that is built around the Masjid Al-Aqsa was built before the spread of Islam. So how were we supposed to destroy their temple if we never even set foot during that time? All we built was a Masjid in one small corner of the area and left everything else.

Also as Muslims we were taught to take care of the temples of other religiosn not destroy them so where ever you found that out it was probably not us but the people of that place - the Hindus themselves because those sound more like Hindu names than Islamic names!!!

If you don't believe the last staement, then i am sure taht most of you have seen the movie 'Kingom of Heaven", and in the end when Jerusalem is taken over by Sallahudeen Ayubbi, you might have noticed that e picked up a fallen cross and placed it back on its table, because he was respecting and following teh rules of Islam!!! And might i add that he built once again every single temple, including synagogs, churches, and all those other ones that were destroyed during the fight for Jerusalem. And we Muslims didn't even make the movie, it was Non- Muslims who made it so they know and believe that we did all those things!!! I am sure that the information source where you are getting everything i_am_mine is probably run by some people who seriously hate Muslims more than anything else in this world, even a visit to teh dentist.
GDG
i_am_mine, you call rapes, killing every few seconds, declaring war on neutral countries an evolved religion!!! As far as i know that's not what the definition or dictionaries state. So please think over what you say before you say it.
benwhite
Thanks for the thumbs up. A couple of comments from things that have bouncing around.

GDG wrote:

But one religion that has not been really affected, and if i am wrong please correct me with atleast one incident. Christianity has never in what i have heard been under any problem in the past or present. Now i am not saying that they caused this, and im sure they didn't but coudl someone tell me what happened to them - although i know the true story non of you would believe it!!!


This is only partially true. Early christians were brutally persecuted. Christ was crucified for a reason and it wasn't because the Jews were angry with his rabbinic philosphy. The roman empire burned and crucified thousands of early Christians. Their deaths were particularly brutal.

Secondly, while certainly the Christians did instigate the Crusades, the Ottoman invasions of Europe also killed thousands. To put it briefly, for those who never learned (because American schools tend to leave out anything that didn't happen in America or western Europe), the Ottoman turks were incredibly powerful in the middle of the last millenia. Their conquest went as far as Vienna, Austria, where they laid siege and eventually gave up (twice). The reason for this loss was not because the Europeans were stronger. Hardly. Europeans were horribly frightened; The Ottoman had swept through Eastern Europe easily. They lost because it was winter and their supply lines were too long. Anyway, back to the point, their armies defeated many armies and killed many people in order to bring about domination. Also, they had a nasty habit of ensuring loyalty by castrating non-muslims who rose high in the ranks of their armies.

While medieval Spain is usually cited for the killing of Jews during the inquisition, Muslims also massacred Jews and Christians living there (before the Christian reconquest) on several occasions. Also, Christians had a lovely habit of killing each other throughout history (take catholics and protestants, on countless occasions). Everyone's suffered. Those who do the least amount of abuse and persecution are simply the minorities in a given context. Jews haven't done much killing in past two millenia because they (with the exception of the short lived kingdom of the Khazars around 800ad) have been living under the dominion of other religions.

So...people tend to call Islam backwards because many Islamic countries are underdeveloped and undemocratic. That's also a bit silly. This is more to do with distribution of wealth than of backwardsness. Women have to cover-up extensively in some countries. That might seem odd. I also find it odd that most religions openly bash homosexuality. Or that, until recently, the Catholic Church believed Jews automatically went to hell. Times change, in the past, I imagine the world at large didn't pay much attention to Islamic customs like that. I imagine that, in the future, there's a strong possibility that we will all look back at the established practices of Christianity and Judaism and also say, "Wow...that's embarassing."

I might point out, for the sake of argument, that most technologies that eventually led Europe to modernization were taken from other civilizations. Printing started in the China. So did gunpowder. Algebra and modern warfare with the Ottomans. Point being, being superior doesn't mean you get to gloat. Just because the West is on top doesn't mean we've always been. Humankind has gotten where it is because of -everyone-. Enjoy.
i_am_mine
Hmmm....I agree, I'm not sure that it qualifies as an evolved religion, or for that matter what exactly would.But then again, isn't it wrong to bunch the actions of muslim extremists to be that of the entire Muslim world's? In the same manner I believe it would be wrong to say that the actions of the Bush regime are the actions of Christians the world over?

Perhaps a better way to describe what I stated as evolved would be to say " in a state of relative peace, at rest " (omitting Bush ), you will atleast agree that as of now Islam isn't at all at peace ( which is why the recent meeting of Islamic nations headed by Saudi Arabia took place, to discuss this peace ).

I don't hate Islam, and I don't hate Musliims, if my subjective/objetive discussion of it leads you to this notion then the mistake lies with you.Hate lies beyond my philosophy - I mean the type you are suggesting ( not the " I hate mondays " type, which I'm sorry to say is an intrinsic part of my life,lol Razz ).Religions, the majority of them do encourage agression and hate, I simply look beyond these distinctions that you make.I believe that you are as holy as anyone else, that God as great as you claim he is and since he treats you as his child ( I'm sure you will agree with that ) then he would not bother with trivial things such as what you call him, or what you name yourself, if he is as great and as all knowing as you claim to be, don't you think that he is beyond these mediocre aspects of a man, I'm sure he treats you as a son , or daughter, not by what you wear or wether you can recite the verses of a "holy" book, this is true because his love is not so shallow as to be based on if you know or read a book, to say that is to contradict yourself.He does not indulge in such a lowly human emotion as "hate" that too for the sake of what you think he is, what he is called.The same apply for the absurd notions of "heaven" in such books, and "reward".

benwhite wrote:
Quote:
So...people tend to call Islam backwards because many Islamic countries are underdeveloped and undemocratic. That's also a bit silly. This is more to do with distribution of wealth than of backwardsness. Women have to cover-up extensively in some countries. That might seem odd. I also find it odd that most religions openly bash homosexuality. Or that, until recently, the Catholic Church believed Jews automatically went to hell. Times change, in the past, I imagine the world at large didn't pay much attention to Islamic customs like that. I imagine that, in the future, there's a strong possibility that we will all look back at the established practices of Christianity and Judaism and also say, "Wow...that's embarassing."


this is precisely what I meant by "evolved", the state where you can actually analyze your own religion, as benwhite does here to the extent of "wow...that's embarrasing", as of now, Islam has not reached that stage, and even muslim readers will cast aside any notions of criticizing their own faith when they read this post. Muslims will still uphold that unbelievers automatically go to hell.




There is so much beauty in this world, and so many people to know.Unlike you I choose not to discriminate ( and as much as you deny it, you do discriminate at one level or another, since it you are told that you should and must ), and while you may not openly or physically set aside someone who is not part of your own cult, a man will preserve his self respect, his dignity once you set him aside even if only theoretically, like a species being classified. I put myself beyond these petty classifications and I assure you I find much more beauty in this world than you ever will, since you find yourselves dividing the world that you know.
i_am_mine
and one more thing GDG, please read my other posts before you post an opinion, I'm ferociously against the Bush regime and its illegal war in the middle east.


[ refer to my posts in these threads/topics : FRIHOST Forum Index -> Discuss World News ->Urban Legends/Treason/Searching for MR.GOODWAR/Guantanamo Bay ]


Get it right before you post.
benwhite
i_am_mine wrote:

this is precisely what I meant by "evolved", the state where you can actually analyze your own religion, as benwhite does here to the extent of "wow...that's embarrasing", as of now, Islam has not reached that stage, and even muslim readers will cast aside any notions of criticizing their own faith when they read this post. Muslims will still uphold that unbelievers automatically go to hell.


That isn't quite my point. My statement about progress applies to Islam as well. To illustrate, there are factions in both Christianity and Judaism that are extremely intolerant and unforgiving. The ultra-orthodox in Israel consider many Jews to be gentiles because of the quality of their observance of custom. Living in Texas for many years, I can personally atest to the many Baptists and Mormons who came to my door to kindly tell me that I was going to burn with a smile on their face. They meant well, but that -is- intolerance.

Tolerance has little to do with religion and more to do with worldview. I've known plenty of Muslims who were conservative and liberal. I know some that blindly support the Palestinian cause and take no blame for the violence in the Middle East. I know others who are tolerant and promote cooperation. I know Jews who do the same. It's more a matter of context than of religious affiliation. People who are intolerant will find reasons to be intolerant. Religion is just one of many aspects. I suppose I could mention race as another, just to give an idea.
i_am_mine
I wouldn't go to the extent of saying that intolerance has absolutely no connection with the relgion and the atmosphere of that religion that an individual has been brought up in.
I agree with that point however, that there are orthodox flavors of every religion.

also, benwhite, thank you for bringing the aura of cambridge to the forum Very Happy
benwhite
I do what I can, Wink.

Quote:
I wouldn't go to the extent of saying that intolerance has absolutely no connection with the relgion and the atmosphere of that religion that an individual has been brought up in.

Indeed. Good thing I didn't say that. I said "little to do with religion and more with worldview." And while religion may have strong contribution to worldview, I said this to emphasize the distance between specific religions and intolerance. Indeed religion is an incredibly important part of an upbringing, but being a given religion in and of itself will never lead to bigotry. It is the worldview, the sum of infinite causal factors, that determines this. National identity, political leanings, childhood friends, hometown, etc. etc. It's unsound to peg down one cause as a primary contributer.

To the countrary, I imagine many of the people on this board who like to flame Islam do so more because they live in America that because of their religious identity. Perhaps they are Christian, which allows them to bash Islam without self-incrimination, but I'm fairly confident that the sociopolitical atmophere of the US is what created relgious intolerance that's become the fad. (Yes, one could argue that the Christian dominance in Amerian society is what causes this, but such arguments are difficult to prove and basically a Chicken and Egg phenomenon. What I argue is that at the present, the average person is more likely to be affected by his overall culture in this country than just by his church). I certainly don't remember this attitude before 9/11, not even in the 90's back in Gulf War I.
i_am_mine
I've come to this from experience that in the majority of Islamic nations, whatever the factors may be, this form of bigotry is infact encouraged in a childs upbringing, and if not, a sense of superiority on account of belonging to the "chosen" faith.True, this feeling may exist elsewhere, but it is particularly widespread across the muslim world.

And just as a viewpoint I'd like to tell that the rascism you now feel particularly strong in the US, I could still feel in the 90's , although definitely not to such an extent, and it amuses me to recollect, though it does not surprise me that most of it was from the high income class.

As far as flaming goes, there's nothing that can be done, its a forum after all.
GDG
As always, it seems that it still runs ieven in these forums. Before i continue and answer your posts - i_am_mine and benwhite, let me just say that im not trying to act like i hate you guys or anybody, or that i am against someone.

I write this with great sadness, for i thought that there were some decent people who thought outside the box for once. When i say that, I am not saying that your thread poster, i_am_mine, benwhite, Islamic thinker, agenhero, Gonzo are stupid. What i am saying is that you are all posting based on what you have seen of us, Muslims in the media, and of what you have read on the internet and books written by western authors.

My friend told me to check this thread out, it was biased i would say in the beginning but then got better and then just turned, well sort of against Islam and yes i know that both you i_am_mine and benwhite will disagree with me. But believe me i know when something has turned against me and my people.

I was shocked to notice that High school students that came to visit my High school, 'to learn about Islam' were shocked to see me in teh rows prayign with my fellow brothers. Why? Because i am white, and the media portrays Muslims as these middle eastern, dark people. Confused Well believe it or not there is a very good majority of us Muslims who are not that, and yet we live in peace with our fellow brothers and neighbours.

Benwhite, you said earlier that people would look upon Christianity and Jewdaism and laugh at what wrong things they had done in teh past, So what happened to us Muslims??? i_am_mine, when you post about Islam i feel as if you're writing against us with passion, and when you write about Christianity and Jewdaism you have this other side to you, a 'better' side?
You both stated that you weren't going to be biased, yet as i see it and many other people see it - I showed this thread to one of my Christian neighbours and my teacher, and they all said that there was some biased comments coming from this thread especially to us Muslims.

Why is it that the world hates us Muslims, is it because all they see are people blowing themselves up, or is it the fact that they see Muslim women praying to God that he curse teh Americans, or is it the fact that Muslims are protesting here in North America against something that you see differently in teh media. How about if the media protrayed a family who lived here, a Muslim family or a family in one of those middle eastern countris that is not in war - oh yes i forgot were all 'ndemocratic' meaning were savages so well get the same pictures.

I respect my Christian neighbours, because my family and one more other Muslim family are the only ones that live in a neghbourhood of Christian and jewish families. Yet, none of them have sweared, said bad things to us since 911 or any other thing that has happened!! If one of my Christian neighbours was sick, my family would ask where he was. Another family nearby lost one of their loved oens, we made some food for them since they were in a depressing situation and I am sure felt like doing nothing, so they would have probably had a hard time to make food.

Why doesn't teh media portray this, why does it portray us a savages, as monsters, as these killers who follwo a book of so called 'EVIL'. I don't know, but what i do know is that logical people who are Christians have wrote books that say the things that are going on against us Muslims is wrong, so if they say its wrong why don't other people???

This is not a comment or answer to any post so far in this thread, It is my, and many other people's feelings towards what is happeneing in our world. I was not and wasn't trying to be biased in my post, and im sure i wasn't because i portrayed teh good side of all the corners, and i mean Christianity, Jewdaism, Islam, Buddhism, and so on. These are my feelings, and what i believe has happened to this thread!!!
lib
GDG wrote:
there was some biased comments coming from this thread especially to us Muslims

That's primarily because this thread is titled "islam is..." and then we have you and IslamicThinker coming in to "defend" Islam and try to show us how great a religion it is.
I don't know much about Islam... I am yet to read a translated copy of the Qu'ran. But from the posts and the verses being quoted here, most points by i_am_mine and benwhite make sense to me, especially the parts about it being violent, and also the parts about the inacceptance of other religions... but it has been stated in many posts (by both i_am_mine and benwhite) that this is a problem with most Abrahamic religions.

GDG wrote:
Why is it that the world hates us Muslims, is it because all they see are people blowing themselves up, or is it the fact that they see Muslim women praying to God that he curse teh Americans, or is it the fact that Muslims are protesting here in North America against something that you see differently in teh media. How about if the media protrayed a family who lived here, a Muslim family or a family in one of those middle eastern countris that is not in war - oh yes i forgot were all 'ndemocratic' meaning were savages so well get the same pictures.

Actually, you're right on target there. Most media shows Muslims praying to God to curse the Americans... most media shows a large number of terrorist acts by Islamic Radicals (which, as an undeniable fact, outnumbers the number of terrorist acts by any other group/'religion') The problem is that intelligent people know that not all Muslims are Radicals, but most people don't. They just watch the idiot box and say "Damn, I hate Muslims!"

But then again, while reading up about Salman Rushdie, I came up with some interesting stuff:
Quote:
On February 14, 1989, a fatwa promising his execution was proclaimed on Radio Tehran by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the leader of Iran, calling his book "blasphemous against Islam." Furthermore, Khomeini condemned Rushdie for the crime of "apostasy"—attempting to abandon the Islamic faith— which according to the Hadith is punishable by death. This was due to Rushdie's communication through the novel that he no longer believes in Islam.

And this is an example of Radial Islamist violence (the book here is "The Satanic Verses"):
Quote:
At the University of California at Berkeley, bookstores carrying the book were firebombed. On February 24 in Bombay, 5 people in a protest at the British Embassy died from police gunfire. Several other people died in Egypt and elsewhere. Muslim communities throughout the world held public rallies in which copies of the book were burned. In 1991, Rushdie's Japanese translator, Hitoshi Igarashi, was stabbed and killed in Tokyo, and his Italian translator was beaten and stabbed in Milan. In 1993, Rushdie's Norwegian publisher William Nygaard was shot and severely injured in an attack outside his house in Oslo. Thirty-seven guests died when their hotel in Sivas, Turkey was burnt down by locals protesting against Aziz Nesin, Rushdie's Turkish translator.

I really doubt you will believe me when I say this... but I do not have anything against Islam. I'm just trying to come up with some valid reasons as to why Islam is feared.
benwhite
GDG wrote:
Benwhite, you said earlier that people would look upon Christianity and Jewdaism and laugh at what wrong things they had done in teh past, So what happened to us Muslims??? i_am_mine, when you post about Islam i feel as if you're writing against us with passion, and when you write about Christianity and Jewdaism you have this other side to you, a 'better' side?
You both stated that you weren't going to be biased, yet as i see it and many other people see it - I showed this thread to one of my Christian neighbours and my teacher, and they all said that there was some biased comments coming from this thread especially to us Muslims.


Read my posts again, period. I challenge you to substantiate what you said. First, I never said Jews and Christians would laugh. I said they would be embrassed. Those two qualities are not to be equated. It means that the actions of some religions in the past are shameful. You are in the habit of being defensive, which is understandable given the climate you must endure, but that does not excuse grouping posts together and interpreting bigotry where it does not exist.

Second. I never said I wasn't going to be biased. To be frank, that's an impossible claim. At the same time, if there are any posts in this thread that address both sides of the with the hope of diffusing anger and spreading blame etc, they would be mine. There are biased posts in this thread. There are way too many. That does not mean that all points should be viewed as intolerant as a rule.

My posts were meant to point out the myriad similarities between the three big faiths we were discussing and show that the things people fear or criticize in Islam are no different than qualities that Judaism and Christianity share. I also attempted to show the foolishness of equating a minority with the larger majority, and furthermore of confusing groups of Islamic nationalists in the Middle East with the entirety of the Muslim faith. I can only openly wonder why you, with the posts you have made regarding your feelings on persecution, scorn that attempt.
i_am_mine
GDG wrote:
Quote:
Benwhite, you said earlier that people would look upon Christianity and Jewdaism and laugh at what wrong things they had done in teh past, So what happened to us Muslims??? i_am_mine, when you post about Islam i feel as if you're writing against us with passion, and when you write about Christianity and Jewdaism you have this other side to you, a 'better' side?
You both stated that you weren't going to be biased, yet as i see it and many other people see it - I showed this thread to one of my Christian neighbours and my teacher, and they all said that there was some biased comments coming from this thread especially to us Muslims.


A 'better side' ? These notions of yours are a matter of of your personal interpretation. The reason why I post and concentrate on Islam, is because this thread is precisely "Islam is...".Also if you cannot accept any criticism of Islam then there is no point of "discussing" it. If you expect us to all agree and endorse the view that Islam is perfect, then I'm afraid this is not the place.

If you wish, start a new topic on Judaism and Christianity, and I will discuss them similarly.
GDG
As i satated eralier, sorry for anything i might have said. Lib if you also read the posts after what i_am_mine posted, you will see that i have contadicted any thought that those verses are saying about. They talk about evil but not in teh way i_am_mine was saying they were, okease read my posts and you will understand them better.

Benwhite, i can see what you were trying to say, but i was also trying to point out tat you said it as if we Muslims would be extinct, as i_am_mine pointed out we are primarily talking about Islam. But we are also talking about teh abrahamic religions, and might i add that i see this thread has sort of changed from just viewing Islam, but to viewing all religiosn of life!!!

But in the end, if you believe in one of the three abrahamic religions you will know that there will be a Day of Judgement, and that is where we will see whihc people were right and which were wrong!!! (not offending anyoen or anything, so please dont take wrong way.)
benwhite
GDG wrote:

Benwhite, i can see what you were trying to say, but i was also trying to point out tat you said it as if we Muslims would be extinct, as i_am_mine pointed out we are primarily talking about Islam. But we are also talking about teh abrahamic religions, and might i add that i see this thread has sort of changed from just viewing Islam, but to viewing all religiosn of life!!!

But in the end, if you believe in one of the three abrahamic religions you will know that there will be a Day of Judgement, and that is where we will see whihc people were right and which were wrong!!! (not offending anyoen or anything, so please dont take wrong way.)


You're kidding right? Hardly. I left out Islam deliberately in my comment about Jews and Christians' hindsight, and not because I was pretending it was extinct, that's ludicrous. I left it out because people were criticizing Islam as being more barbaric than the other two, and I was pointing out the Jews and Christians have plenty to be sorry for. Islam can feel free to change its ideas over time as well, no one's stopping it. Way to misread.

The reason I've brought other Abrahamic religions into this discussion is because much of the criticism comes from the highhanded comments of people who are members of those faiths. Obviously the atheists and all don't have much to do with that. But for those Christians and Jews who like to claim superiority, my comments were made to shed some light on the reality of the situation.

Secondly, in a day of judgement, no one has to be right or wrong. Despite the wonderful flavors of oblivion that we like to paint for those of different faiths, the emphasis of all religions point to living a good life as a good person. The rest is dressing compared to that. If everyone has the same God, do you really think he would scorn all but one group of his believers. He told the Jews they were chosen people, no where did he ever say that they've fallen from his Grace. Even the Catholics say Judaism is an "acceptable vehicle to salvation." The Catholics! I imagine most people have their fair chance at getting in.
GDG
Um, well you might actually be right about the last part where everyone will go to heaven and all. But that comes after 'The Day of Judgement', and according to most old scriptures and the Qur'an Jews have been out of that 'CHOSEN' circle for quite a while.

The Jews, disobeyed God quite many times when he allowed them entrance into Jerusalem and freedom yet they were like we don't want that. THne he gave them this great feast and they denied it because they wasnted food that they had eaten as slaves to the pharoah. Now this information is not shown anywhwere in the scriptures of either Jews or Christians, for the simple reason that it was taken out of the Christian scriptures.

The Qur'an though holds accurate information, and the same information that was given to out Prophet Muhammad(SAW) i sstill written today - how do i know this because we have people, probably in the millions who have memorized teh whole Qur'an and who read it everyday to not forget it. So I believe they would notice if it was wrong or changed. But that isn't the issue, what is, is that not all Jews or Christians or even Muslims will go to Jannah(Heaven), those that believed in the true scriptures will ofcourse because they did what was told to them by God, but now adays we have books and people following them that other people wrote and erased!!!

Later on, maybe in the Winter/Christmas(Yes i respect that holiday) holiday i will write some verses that speak about the truth of Islam and the truthness of the Qur'an. You probably still won't believe but i will tyr my best to write it during the holidays. [/b]
benwhite
I imagine God puts his emphasis on things like the ten commandments for a reason. The lovely differing bits about wasted food are little bit to specific for anyone who wants to believe that judgement is based on the quality of your soul and not which direction it leans. Judaism and Christianity also say similar things about non-believers, not just Islam, so don't feel special. There's also, big shocker, some true history in both the old and new testament. I was commenting that many people in recent times have decided that the debate about who's right is far and away secondary to being a good person, which has been laid out pretty clearly.
GDG
benwhite wrote:
I imagine God puts his emphasis on things like the ten commandments for a reason. The lovely differing bits about wasted food are little bit to specific for anyone who wants to believe that judgement is based on the quality of your soul and not which direction it leans. Judaism and Christianity also say similar things about non-believers, not just Islam, so don't feel special. There's also, big shocker, some true history in both the old and new testament. I was commenting that many people in recent times have decided that the debate about who's right is far and away secondary to being a good person, which has been laid out pretty clearly.


In your final statement you sort of brought back what i said earlier. I said that in Christianity and Jewdaism you had to be part of their religion to go to Heaven, yet in Islam there is this possibility of going to Heaven if you are a good person, but there are also some other factors here so its not that easy. But i wasn't being special or anything, LOL!!!
benwhite
You just contradicted yourself and overall made little to no sense. You've said first that only Muslims can go to heaven because they believe in the correct scriptures. Now you say only in Islame can non-believers also go to heaven and in judasim and christianity, they cannot. Flip flop, flip flop.
lib
I've not been posting much in tthis thread, but I have been reading.
GDG, this is not a personal attack, but just a personal opinion... I don't mind you debating and defending Islam to the idiots who generalize all Muslims as radical terrorists. What's getting on my nerves is the fact that you're simply defending it to the extent of proclaiming it to be better than all other religions. While I hate comparing religions (as it is my personal belief that all religions have their good and bad policies and ideologies), I also hate it when someone extremely passionate about his religion tries to tell me that his religion is the best and how it's all-accepting. We're all forgetting the basics of all religions...

Like benwhite said, all (or rather most... I'm leaving out those religions that require an autere and renounced life in order to reach God/Salvation) religions say the same basic thing - be a good human being. All these extra rules and rituals about believing that everybody else is going to hell helps only in spreading communal tension.
GDG
Lib, I am not sure how i was being passionate about my religion or saying that it was the best. I was in the beginning contradicting what i_am_mine had said about the 'evil' verses - i was saying they were wrong. Then we started to sort of talk about the past of Islam and other religions, and i was merely stating the truth of what we Muslims had done in the past and how we are taught to respect other religions.

now i don't remember saying that Christians are taught to hate other religions, or that Jews are taught that. I didn't say anything against them, but if i was then it would be probably good. Because as i have seen most of my Christian friends they respect me even if I am Muslim, so like I don't think i will or would say anything against their religion because tehre isn't anything.

Now where you might have gotten an idea of me being biased/passionate for Islam, is where i said that the Qur'an isn't going to be or is changed. And that's not passion, that's the truth, ask any Chrisitan Scholr, P.hd professor of history and they will say the same thing. And 'Benwhite', I did say earlier that there is a possibility of Christian or Jews going to heaven, if they work for it:

GDG wrote:
i woudl like to add that not all Chrisitans or Jews will go to hell, the first believers of thos religions are going to heaven with Allah's Blessings. And might i add that even today you might be able to go to Heaven if God is merciful with you, i would like to share a story with you before i leave:

During the Prophet's time, there was a women who went out and did bad things to get an income and be able to live - i will not mention what things as they might be offencesive to some people and disgraceful to the lady. Well when she grew old, and the Prophet knew about her even though she lived all the way in another city, he said that she was still going to Paradise. why??? Becasue Allah had told him about her and what she had done, a dog came to her thirsty and she had no jug or anything only a well so she took of her shoe and put some water in it and gave it to the dog.

She was merciful to the dog, so Allah was merciful with her. And i believe he will be Merciful to you too, and i pray he does InshAllah(God willing).


In Christian faith, as I remember seeing and reading it unless they changed it. Their god had taken all sins that would be commited and that were, so that is why tehy are going to Heaven. Not sure about Jewish belief, may be similar to Islamic!!!
GDG
OK guys, I think this might be my last post for quite a while. As we all know this thread will have to end someday, sooner or later and seeing as I have to study, take care of some other things in my life - Like live one Very Happy . Then I am choosing to stop posting here, maybe if God wills and i have time i will or might post back if anyoen posts after this.

It was great talking to you all about Islam and the otehr great religions of this world, I sort of leanred a lot. Oh and don't think I am scared an dodn't want to pst anymore LOL Very Happy , naa just don't have time. Seeing as I have exams after Christmas break, and a lot more studying to do now as well as catching up(not that far behind luckily). So like hope you guys live long, have a good life and like

Salam,
Goodbye,
Shalom(not sure how you write that, my Jewish friends correct me please)

and any othe greeting I don't know.
benwhite
Shalom is right. Take it easy man.
lib
GDG wrote:
OK guys, I think this might be my last post for quite a while. As we all know this thread will have to end someday, sooner or later and seeing as I have to study, take care of some other things in my life - Like live one Very Happy . Then I am choosing to stop posting here, maybe if God wills and i have time i will or might post back if anyoen posts after this.

It was great talking to you all about Islam and the otehr great religions of this world, I sort of leanred a lot. Oh and don't think I am scared an dodn't want to pst anymore LOL Very Happy , naa just don't have time. Seeing as I have exams after Christmas break, and a lot more studying to do now as well as catching up(not that far behind luckily). So like hope you guys live long, have a good life and like

Salam,
Goodbye,
Shalom(not sure how you write that, my Jewish friends correct me please)

and any othe greeting I don't know.
I apologize if I said something inappropriate in some of my posts. I was just reading some of the posts in this thread (not necessarily yours) and other threads, and I had become sick about the fact that so many religious fanatics claim their religion is the best and everyone else is, in fact, going to hell.

You take it easy though... study well for your exams and have a good time. Perhaps we shall debate again about other things, in possibly a more 'friendlier' environment?

PS: DOn't worry, I don't think you're getting scared and running away. Seeing as how you have replied to so many posts in this thread, that would probbaly be anyone's last thought. Smile

Khudah-Hafis (Sorry if I misspelt that).
nam_siddharth
A topic on chritians was locked by admin, because it was hurting feelings of Cristians. May I know, why this topic is not locked yet? Question
tidruG
Probably because this topic has got some very good and positive posts and has maintained a healthy discussion. It would definitely have been locked if things got messy, but no party in this thread complained about anything getting rude or hurtful in this thread... I've been following this thread personally.
orbital
Islam doesnt associate with terorism.Some people think that when they hear Islam.This is wrong.Some people who say they are muslim can kill some people.Some people who are say they are not muslim can also kill people.
ee82hl
Let me clarify, I don't think all the Jihad stuff is about Islam. They are different. I live in Singapore which is a multi racial society, all my muslim friends are very friendly, in fact my best friend in my young days a is a muslim. similar to all other religious extremist, Jihad is in the name of Islamic beliefs, but not a Islamic beliefs in truth.

If my God ask me to kill someone in order to go to heaven, I will question is my God really the true God. This is the problem when man no longer knows how to listen to God, but follow own instinct and beliefs.

God is merciful, gracious. If God is not, He would have kill Adam and Eve on the spot.

God is the same in the past, present and future. Why should we create our own idea of who God is when He has told us clearly who he is.

Ask and you will received.
eliasr
islam is close to cristian people in the religion, just that we are more free.
DecayClan
I believe in statistics.What do i mean?simple.At maths when you say that it is anythings divided by infinite, then the outcome is 0.If there are a VERY few good of them, divided by their total, we can say that it's outcome is ZERO.Maths say so, and maths never lie.
amirkpe
I think that the real face of islam is what u see. As an Iranian when I read some books that they impose them in schools i realized that islam is nothing more than a ... .
people who say that this is not the real islam , i have to say that you are wrong this rule is one of the main rules of Quran called "ghesas".
i_am_mine
You must have some gut to say this as a muslim from Iran.

I remember a popular Iranian family of film-makers who preferred to speak out against muslim tradition.

One of the women released a press statement saying that she preferred not to be called a muslim.

....
...
..
.
a fatwa was issued the next day.

What is or what is not the true meaning of Islam has been debated.

I consider this thread exhausted.
Soulfire
Doesn't Islam mean peace in Arabic? What is happening here is all Islamic people are being stereotyped with the extremists. There are Christian extremists out there as well, you just don't hear about them because the media doesn't give it to you.

You must understand that not everything is as it is shown on TV. They leave out all the good, and show all the bad, and they make people think in ways like this. It's rather pathetic, anything to make money right?

FYI, I am Roman Catholic. The Catholic Church does have a bloody history, but they were fighting for Christ and Christianity, not pointless wars that don't solve anything.
i_am_mine
Soulfire wrote:
but they were fighting for Christ and Christianity


And the Muslims are fighting for Allah and Islam ?

Getting the pointlessness?

Hence you just answered the second part:

Soulfire wrote:
not pointless wars that don't solve anything.


And if you don't , in that case, every religion's war ( those to be held in the future included ) are and will not be pointless and will solve ( ? ) something.

Good luck with that.
benwhite
Fighting for Christ and Christianity?

Explain what traveling across the continent to kill muslims and retake land has to with Christ? Or maybe how burning non-believers was an okay practice? That's a solid one.

Don't justify something that's unjustifiable. Holy war and genocide aren't okay. That kind of thing will never be okay again the same way genocide is universally considered immoral. There's a reason the world on the whole doesn't agree with terrorism. You can't claim that Islam's violence is wrong and justify a bloody history as "okay because we did for our man Christ." Ten commandments remember? Murder is bad. God never said "murder in my name instead to make it okay." Oops.
gonzo
Valleyman wrote:
TDid you know that way back in about 632 AD the Muslim State (under the "Rightly Guided Caliphs"-those closest to Muhammad) was far more tolerant than the Catholic Church ever was? Back in about 632 AD religious tolerance in the Muslim State was great


For the sake of argument let's pretend that was true. Where is that tolerance now? And how does that pertain to the article on page one about STATE SANCTIONED BARBARISM?

Quote:

In addition the Qu'ran forbids forced conversion.

The Catholic Church was not so tolerant, I'm sure we all know of the Crusades.


Good God have mercy! Are you insane or just that grossly ignorant of history? The crusades were TAKING BACK what the nutty MUSLIMS STOLE BY VIOLENCE AND WANTON, WHOLESALE SLAUGHTER.

Forbids forced conversion you say? Uh huh.. how does that account for the HALF DOZEN WORLD DOMINATION ATTEMPTS BY THE THEN MUSLIMS???????????????



wolfhnd wrote:
Point A: If you knew anything about history you would know that the Crusades may appear to be religious in nature they were in fact part of an attempt to unify the west against the very real threat that the Islamic forces would conquer all of Western Europe.


Yes.... RE uninifying

wolfhnd wrote:
Why did Muslims invade Spain in 711?


I guess it wasn't another forced conversion attempt then either


wolfhnd wrote:
Why did the Muslims invade Jerusalem in 638 and steal it from the Christians?

Why did the Muslims destroy the great civilivation of Persia in 644?

Why did the Muslims destroy the great Byzantine civilization in 1453?

But mostly why do you feel the need to support such a blood thirsty religion?



Hmmm why did they do THE SAME THING in so MANY PLACES... nooo such a large pattern cannot possibly imply doctrine

wolfhnd wrote:
The first few civilizations were destroyed by the founder of the religion himself. Now ask yourself what other religion was founded by a man who was personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people in wars design to spread their teachings.


Jesus? uhh no.

Quote:

It is estimated that 10,000,000 people died between the 7th and 17th centuries as a direct result of Islamic wars of conquest.

It is just history I feel no need to white wash it the way modern Muslim are like to do.


died? No. slaughtered? yes.

GDG wrote:
When someone kills another person in America, he is executed automatically!!!


REALLY? Where exactly does this autoexecution happen?

IslamicThinker wrote:

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace" (The Quran 8:61)


Riiight. And an enemy proper is deemed antagonistic to islam. For those enemies (actual enemies) what then?

oh, yes, kill them all. Wait.. I'll even quote the passage you provided:



Quote:
slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter



Quote:
Quran 2:256; God said "Let there be no compulsion in religion


So what prey tell were the muslims doing cavorting through Christian lands willy nilly slaughtering and retaining vast swaths of territory? No forced conversions? Just stealing land and killing the inhabitants? Cuz that's oh so much better.

Quote:
: Truth stands out clear from Error..."


Yes, it does.

Quote:
should be based on justice, mutual respect, cooperation, and communication. The Quran is very explicit about the justice part of the relationship


But not so clear on the respect or cooperation parts. Especially when what's unjust is essentially not following allah's precepts.

Quote:
The root of the word Jihad is Jahada which means "spent the energy".


yes, and the other part relates how that energy OUGHT to be SPECIFICALLY spent. And its not in your list here:

Quote:
The acts of Jihad are limitless in Islam. Work, going to school, or any good dead is considereed an act of jihad!


In fact the word jihad does NOT have limitless applications. It only has a few. Tell us the KINDS of jihad.

Quote:
Defending your family, money, land, country...etc. by all means including the armed means are also considered Jihad


yes, that's one of the KINDS. Notice how even that kind includes the release from previous behavioral conditions "by all means" which obviously includes "lethal means".

which ties nicely into the first post: STATE SANCTIONED BARBARISM to "defend" the state against the unjust



Quote:
Quran 2:190-193.
but if they fight you, slay them.


How does that justify at all the muslim conquering that triggered the crusafes?

Quote:

And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah;


leave no man standing in opposition to allah?

Quote:
but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.


Who is not-excepted in a war like that??



Quote:

The United Nation's Charter does explicitly discuss the right of the occupied people to resist their occupiers.


Soooo then you don't take isse with the crusades?

Quote:
international law


This is a gross misnomer


Quote:

The legitimacy of annihilating the oppressive forces and military occupation is not limited to Islam or international law and UN Charter. In fact, it is very much morally and ethically unacceptable to people with minimum level of dignity and self respect


Wait. What? What is varying levels of dignity?? Islam doesn't have a coherant stance on human dignity. Want to take a crack at it?

Quote:

I have seen some great feelings of hostility


I am extremely hostile to falsity.


Quote:
hope that mankind as a whole will belessed in the sense of getting along without force, killings,fights, and all the moden ways of pain!


Well, that hasn't happened since.. oh never.. not in the history of man. bummer. But it would be nice.

I hope God blesses you with his grace.


Hopefully there are more people like you willing to put an end to STATE SANCTIONED ACTS OF BARBARISM.


i_am_mine wrote:
I'm .. more of the following "heretic","heathen","unbeliever" or "kafir".

A welcoming hell awaits me from both cults.


Only in ultimate despair. As God doesn't toss you into hell; you judge yourself through God's eyes. But that's another topic entirely.

i_am_mine wrote:

Let me clear all notions of Islam as a peaceful religion.As much as I would like to believe that it is, it is not.Barring a few hazy lines refering to peace ( to all etc ) spread across the Qu'ran which may be interpreted in multiple ways ( thus allowing them to be stretched to accomodate and justify violence )...

[these are all summaries of the verses, please feel free to look up the quoted verse numbers in full...]
Quote:

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 3:151

Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76

Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51



that last one is terrible hard to wrangle out of.


Though it doesn't really address STATE SANCTIONED ACTS OF BARBARISM too well. Perhaps a more horrible fate awaits non muslims for the same crime?

Quote:
walked the path of Christianity peace should have been kept


The relationship of allah to me s one of a harsh master to a slave. The relationship of the first person of the trinity to men is one of a loving, compassionate, humble father to a wayward child. Children must be *completely* open to the grace of God the Father to perfectly walk "the path of peace" as you call it.

What happened to you sticking to only Islam?

But here again a harsh master would have no qualms with STATE SANCTIONED ACTS OF BARBARISM.


GDG wrote:
Quote:
The Holy Qur'an wrote:

They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected Faith, and thus that you all become equal. So take not Auliya(protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah. But if they turn back, take them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither auliya(protectors or friends) nor helpers from them 4:89



This verse is self explanatory


yes, kill people who try to convert you.

GDG wrote:
here Allah is telling us not to make friends with the unbelievers, yes and no. He said a certain type of unbelievers, thos which want me to give up my religion....Now Allah tells us that we shoudl not make friends with the people who want us to change until they become Muslim, but if they turn away then we must kill them.


yes. Everyone needs to read that last bit you wrote in your EXPLANATION OF WHAT ALLAH COMMANDS:


"the people who want us to change...we must kill them."

hey YOU said it. YOU MUST KILL THEM? wow.

that fits nicely into STATE SANCTIONED ACTS OF BARBARISM.

GDG wrote:
we have people who explain the Qur'an to us, our Scholars tell us what they truly mean.


Like the scholars Al-Quaeda quotes? So how is conflict of "truly mean" reconciled between the MANY "scholars"???


GDG wrote:
As Muslims we are not allowed to kill innocent people,


define "innocence" in the context of islam, please. Because it seems pretty innocent sharing faith with you and wholly not innocent for you to turn around and kill him for trying

GDG wrote:
Why is it that the world hates us Muslims


a long history of bad PR? I don't hate any people.

GDG wrote:
I respect my Christian neighbours


well, up until you "have to" kill them.


GDG wrote:
it portray us a savages, as monsters, as these killers


Could it be your "have to" kill them policy?


I respect your right to live. I respect your right to err, as well.

GDG wrote:
In Christian faith, as I remember seeing and reading ..Their god had taken all sins that would be commited and that were, so that is why tehy are going to Heaven. Not sure about Jewish belief, may be similar to Islamic!!!


NO. Please stop guessing. Christ died for the remission of justice due sin. All sin is an offence against God. God is an eternal being. An offence against an eternal being cannot be remedied with a finite sacrafice. An infinite sacrafice is due an infinite being. Christ is an infinite being. His sacrafice of self was worthy.

everybody is NOT going to heaven. Jesus made salvation POSSIBLE again. You CANNOT BE SAVED UNTIL AFTER YOU DIE. So "accepting jesus as your personal lord and savior" does not grant you an unrevokable e-ticket to heaven. That's horrifically illogical and non-biblical.
benwhite
I'd point throughout history both Muslims and Christians openly supported conversion, they rarely required it. Both were guilty of violence toward random civilians in many massacres.

Medieval Spain is a good example because it was ruled sequentially by Muslims and Christians. Check out the "Pact of Umar" for Muslim Spain and for Christian, why not Robert Lull's Blanquerna, check it out Wikipedia or something.

In Christian Spain, Jews and Muslims were forced to attend to conversionary sermons. By the inquisition, Jews and even Christians that had converted from Judaism were killed because other Christians doubted their faith. Christians don't get to play the moral superiority card. There are plenty of skeletons in that closet. Islam also stood by while entire townships, like that of Granada, were wiped out by angry Muslims.

People need to understand history is rife with conflict and violence. Don't quote Koran and point out where it sanctions violence. The Judeo-Christian god required Saul to wipe entire peoples from the maps of nonbelievers. He was dethroned when he failed to destroy the Amalekite king and their cattle.
i_am_mine
Remove all the hateful wording and spite and some of the completely wrong facts and I think gonzo has a point made when he says that to say that the muslim's were tolerant and peaceful throughout history.

Not to say that Christianity was either.

But Islam has a much more aggressive nature.

Perhaps that changes with time for each religion.
GDG
Quote:
But here again a harsh master would have no qualms with STATE SANCTIONED ACTS OF BARBARISM.


GDG wrote:
Quote:
The Holy Qur'an wrote:

They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected Faith, and thus that you all become equal. So take not Auliya(protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah. But if they turn back, take them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither auliya(protectors or friends) nor helpers from them 4:89



This verse is self explanatory


yes, kill people who try to convert you.


Quote:
Didn't the Christians do the same as Benwhite has stated, thay forced conversion.

Quote:
GDG wrote:
I respect my Christian neighbours


well, up until you "have to" kill them.


GDG wrote:
it portray us a savages, as monsters, as these killers


Could it be your "have to" kill them policy?


GDG wrote:
here Allah is telling us not to make friends with the unbelievers, yes and no. He said a certain type of unbelievers, thos which want me to give up my religion....Now Allah tells us that we shoudl not make friends with the people who want us to change until they become Muslim, but if they turn away then we must kill them.


yes. Everyone needs to read that last bit you wrote in your EXPLANATION OF WHAT ALLAH COMMANDS:


"the people who want us to change...we must kill them."

hey YOU said it. YOU MUST KILL THEM? wow.


Hey I said un-believers, thos that worship idols, such as the cows or other statues!!! Last time I checked and I am sure that you might be a Christian because you seem to defend it a lot and this statment:
Quote:

NO. Please stop guessing. Christ died for the remission of justice due sin. All sin is an offence against God. God is an eternal being. An offence against an eternal being cannot be remedied with a finite sacrafice. An infinite sacrafice is due an infinite being. Christ is an infinite being. His sacrafice of self was worthy.

everybody is NOT going to heaven. Jesus made salvation POSSIBLE again. You CANNOT BE SAVED UNTIL AFTER YOU DIE. So "accepting jesus as your personal lord and savior" does not grant you an unrevokable e-ticket to heaven. That's horrifically illogical and non-biblical.


Well yes back to the point, last time I checked Christians and Jews and some other religions were believeing religions, let me repeat "BELIEVING RELIGIONS". That is why we don't kill them unless they attack us, self defence I mean I am sure you are allowed to defend your self in America because here in Canada if someone punches you or tries to kill you can self defend with the same!!! Don't believe me? check it out.

Gonzo this is pretty funny:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quran 2:190-193.
but if they fight you, slay them.


How does that justify at all the muslim conquering that triggered the crusafes?


How is a 7 word sentence 4 verses long??? ANd let me say I checked it out, you left out the part of that specific verse why we must kill them: here it is though:
Quote:

Qur'an 2:191,
'And Kill them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.And Al-Fitnah (Polytheism, DISBELIEF) is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram (Sacred Masjid in Macca), unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompens of teh disbelievers.'


So it's just a simple self-defence, he goes for my head I go for his. I mean if Canada and maybe America (NOT SURE OF RULES, GONZO) say its ok then why can't our Qur'an say its ok???

Gonzo, let me add that you spammed a lot in you previous post by saying the same idea over...over...over...over again. I think people got the point that Muslim's went out to conquer the world in the first 2 quotes. But hey didn't every other nation also do that, the Byzantine and Persian!!! A very good reason for why the Muslim Nation destoyed the Persian and Byzantine Empire might well be to stopthem form killing innocent people in tehir countries, since they were continuosly fighting each other!!!
benwhite
Indeed. I'm not a big war proponent and I certainly dislike a violent streak if you hadn't noticed, but no one's going to win a blame game about violence using the overall history of the last millenia. Christians invade christians and muslims. The Ottoman Turks conquered until they reached Vienna. Both had a field day with religious minorities (not for self-defense: Jews as scape-goats for state problems wasn't new with the Nazis, it'd been around with the Greeks. Muslims definitely had a few massacres against Christian minorites in Spain before the reconquest, and Christians defintely killed their fair share of Muslims before the unification in 1492).

Besides, territory disputes usually don't fall under simple "self defense." If you have it and I attack you, you defend. If I win, it's mine. Later on, you attack me for what you used to have. Now for me it's self defense. But in reality, who is in the right? Neither. Because you go back farther in time, and you probably stole that land from someone even weaker than you. That same issue still carries in conflicts today. Look at Kashmir or Israel. The answer in this situation is compromise. Without this, we get the "you're the violent one" game.

There's plenty of self defense and plenty of agression on both sides of this argument. Saying anything opposite is folly. I mean, looks at wars between Catholicism and Protestantism---how can you say Christianity isn't also violent ? It's a human condition that only recently has been shunned. War was a political and communal fact of life. Only after two world wars have countries finally come to pressure other countries to maintain peace.
justmooit
Islam is not a country! It is a religion!! its like saying the jewish government.
Soulfire
Islam is a religion, and with all religions come extremists. Unfortunately, there just seems to be more. Many muslims have said that they don't count as true muslims, but then why do they kill in the name of allah?

It's a tough spot, but I have muslim friends, and they are in no way violent, their religion is peaceful. Terrorists may just be hiding behind the curtain of Islam, if you will.

But there can never be peace, not untill the end of the world, in fact - there will be 7 years (I believe) of peace and then total hell breaks loose, literally.
paul_indo
What an interesting topic.

It is true that most religions have a violent history for sure. I think it is time though for Islam to move to a more progressive place.

I live in a muslim country, more muslims than any other in the world in fact.
I get tired of there intolerance, not as individuals but as a religion.

I am sitting here waiting for my muslim friend to arrive, I am married to a muslim, so don't try to say I am intolerant or something like that.

The MU (Indonesian Ulema Council) have released so many Fatwas in the last few months causing religious tension and violence and yet the majority of peace loving muslims will do nothing to oppose this. That is where I feel Islam and muslims are getting a bad name.

If they dealt more severly with their own wrongdoers and trouble makers the west would not have to interfere. I do not support illegal wars such as Iraq. I am merely suggesting there would be no excuse for them if the muslim nations where not so tolerant towrds their radicals.

Quote:

Jakarta Post
January 20, 2006

The year 2005 saw numerous disputes between conservative Muslims and liberal Muslims to change the face of Islam in Indonesia. A number of incidents that occurred this year were a manifestation of these disputes. To mention some incidents, there was the ban on the Laskar Cinta (Love Army) logo created by the Dhani Ahmad pop singing group; the trial of Yusman Roy, who prayed in Indonesian and Arabic, and the attack on the Mubarok campus -- belonging to the Indonesian Ahmadiyah Congregation (JAI) -- in Bogor in July by a swarm of brutes calling themselves Indonesian Muslim Solidarity (GUII).

There are also controversies over 11 MUI (Indonesian Ulema Council) edicts issued on July 29, and the attempt to oust Liberal Islam Network (JIL) from the Utan Kayu complex in East Jakarta shortly after the fatwa was made public.

The issues of liberal Islam, pluralism among religions and tolerance of secular ideas seems to have greatly preoccupied the minds of Muslim leaders, particularly those at MUI, and thereby neglecting terrorism as the most pressing issue in this country.


Quote:

Jakarta Post
January 20, 2006

The West Java Indonesian Ulema Council issued an informal edict Thursday, declaring that a hunger strike by Ciseeng residents as haram, forbidden according to Islam.

The hunger strikers, who the council assumes are followers of Islam, are up in arms over high-voltage lines near their village.


Quote:

Jakarta Post
January 18, 2006

'Pesantren' no hive of tolerance: Survey

Although they deny the claims they are a breeding ground for terrorists, pesantren (Islamic boarding schools) are a fertile spot for conservative, intolerant views of other faiths, a new study reveals.

Their responses were in keeping with the controversial edict issued last year by the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) that banned Islamic interpretations based on liberalism, secularism and pluralism.

The respondents said the involvement of women in politics or society in general must be limited, because their roles were merely domestic, with men as the leaders.

But the same might be said for religious minorities in this predominantly Muslim country, with the year 2005 marred by the forced closure of many houses of worships (Christian Churches : my note) in Bandung and its surrounding areas.



Here's a list

Quote:


April 10, 2005:A Muslim preacher, Wahfiudin, calls Trans TV to tell it that popular rock group Dewa, which is performing live on the private TV station, is standing on a calligraphic symbol that resembles the character "A" for Allah. The symbol also adorns Dewa's album cover for Laskar Cinta (Love Army).

April 14, 2005:The hard-line Anti-Apostasy Alliance (AGAP) demands the Pasundan Christian Church halt Christian services and proselytizing in Muslim areas and calls for the closure of all "unlicensed" churches in West Java.

April 25, 2005: The Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) reports Dewa to police for the Arabic-looking script on Laskar Cinta, accusing it of blasphemy and demanding a public apology from the group.

July 5, 2005: The FPI asks Jakarta Governor Sutiyoso to clarify his stance on gambling and transsexuals, accusing him of ignoring the regulations that outlaw beauty pageants for transsexuals and gambling.

July 15, 2005: Thousands of people from the Indonesian Muslim Solidarity group attack the buildings of the Islamic sect Jamaah Ahmadiyah (JAI) in Parung, Bogor, vandalizing and setting the buildings on fire and driving out 500 JAI members.

July 29, 2005: The Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) issues 11 controversial fatwa, including those that ban Ahmadiyah and liberalism, secularism and pluralism.

Aug. 5, 2005: The Islamic Defenders Institute (LPI) and the FPI plan a protest in front of Radio 68H at Utan Kayu, East Jakarta, after the station broadcast a radio talk show that criticized them and MUI. Liberal Islamic Network (JIL) co-founder Ulil Absar Abdalla had slammed MUI's edicts as "foolish".

Sept. 5, 2005: Islamic conservatives encourage Utan Kayu residents to evict JIL from their area. They accuse the group of disseminating heresy and warn it to close its office.

Sept. 7, 2005: The government decides to revise a controversial joint ministerial decree on the establishment of houses of worship.

Sept. 22, 2005: FPI reports actor Anjasmara, model Isabella and photographer Davy Linggar to the Jakarta Police for allegedly posing nude in a photographic artwork of Adam and Eve displayed in the Bank Indonesia Museum, Central Jakarta.

Oct. 17, 2005:A Muslim militant group, led by Cholid Syaifullah, attacks restaurants in the Central Java city of Surakarta for selling alcoholic drinks during Ramadhan.

Oct. 16, 2005: FPI members clash with residents of Kalijodo, a red-light district in West Jakarta, during a Ramadhan protest.

Oct. 28, 2005: Tension is high at the Jati Mulya housing complex in Bekasi after Muslims insist Christians stop Sunday services held in houses.

Nov. 4, 2005: The FPI forces restaurants and cafes in Kemang, South Jakarta, to close on the first day of Idul Fitri.

Dec. 1, 2005: The Bali-based World Hindu Youth Organization (WHYO) accuses noted filmmaker Garin Nugroho of a blasphemous portrayal of the gods in his art film Opera Jawa (Requiem From Java), scheduled for release in August 2006.

Source: The Jakarta Post
December 26, 2005


And this is a moderate Islam. They have no respect for human rights at all.

Quote:


Jailed teachers' hope for release dashed
Jakarta Post
Wednesday, January 18, 2006

Three Christian women jailed in the West Java town of Indramayu for inviting Muslim children to their Sunday school last year will stay in prison for three more years, after the Constitutional Court rejected a legal challenge to the ruling.
........

The Indramayu District Court judges ruled last year that the three Christian women -- Rebecca Zakaria, Eti Pangestu and Ratna Bangun -- violated the article in the Child Protection Law by persuading Muslim minors to convert to Christianity without their parents' consent.
...........

The verdict drew criticism from Muslim and Christian communities in the area, who said the children had voluntarily gone to the school and had not changed their religion.



This should cause national outrage not local criticism.
In a month or two they will be forgotten and rot in prison for 3 years.

I like many muslims, I have many muslem friends but the Islamic leaders are meglomaniacs with no regard for the rights of their followers let alone others.
blackheart
The last thing thousands - millions - of innocent Islam's need is biggots like you and said journalist exasserbating the problem of their discrimination.

Losing his sight for what he did is no different to giving someone the death penalty for murder.

I agree that wouldn't be accepted here (Australia) or in the States, or England or where-ever - but the only thing that makes it totally horrific is the wording of the article.

I think this post should be deleted... I mean "Islam is..." - I think we can tell what's implied.

If you want to talk about the corruption of some Islamic Authority - then do so, but don't gerneralise it as Islam as a whole.
tidruG
Quote:
If you want to talk about the corruption of some Islamic Authority - then do so, but don't gerneralise it as Islam as a whole.

I agree, and this has been written by many many members...
However, I won't lock this topic... there have been some interesting replies and a good discussion, and as long as there are no personal attacks or extremely vicious posts, I don't think there is a reason to lock this thread.
magnusmoty
.... religion.....
stupid religion.
the things that they do are stupid.
no one need them.
in the world there must be no religion. s i think.
religion is an evil.
humans are stupid.
justmooit
Soulfire wrote:
It's a tough spot, but I have muslim friends, and they are in no way violent, their religion is peaceful. Terrorists may just be hiding behind the curtain of Islam, if you will.

I think this is a bias comment, oh i see that because you have nice muslim friends that all muslims are peaceful, wow that is a legitimate comment. not. And therefore because there are extremists in the islamic religion, then therefore they are all terrorists. Stereotype! These extremists are becoming what they are because that is how their taught under their fascist regime. They are forced to live a terrorist lifestyle. Their mentors are brainwashing them. These innocent children are becoming devil in our own realm. There were terrorists in Ireland when they were at war but I no some nice christians so then they all be really nice and peaceful. This is what is wrong with the world today, assumptions that are wrong and generalizations that are wrong. These people dont need to be judged, they need to be helped.
Marston
... a Religion? Wink
GDG
Tidrug if you ask me, this thread is getting to be a bit biased and stereotype. But you are a moderator and you decide what you want to do with them. As for me I can see a couple of posts that are quite rude not only to Islam but also to Christianity, Jewdaism and all other religions of the world.
palavra
islam is the last and best religion
Helios
Well, someone decided to bump this.... alrighty.
If I see personal attacks here or/and cursing - this thread is locked.
Soulfire
a religion which, unfortunately, has been the cover for many terrorists trying to justify their unjust actions. Because of those terrorists, Islam has a bad name.
mustaq
Your right even good Islam person hate them those kind of community, b’cose this we can 't blame whole Islam don’t forget that there is hole is all religion due to some illegal community so we can't blame whole religion never forget in those attack only Christian died there lots of innocent Islam also victim of this attack
Maxgamer
First and foremost, I am a Muslim, so, I might be bias here..

Nevertheless.. second thing, why are you guys saying that only the Arabian is Muslim people? I'm not an Arabic people, never went to Arab country, but I am a Muslim. There are a lot of Muslim out there, in Indonesia, Myanmar, Thailand, Malaysia and even in U.K, U.S, Russia and lots more. In fact, Islam is the fastest growing religion in this world. Don't generalized Asian or Arabs as Muslim. Islam doesn't care whether an individual is White, Black, Chinese, Indian, Malay or whatsoever. What important is, we only pray to one God, Allah and follow what He says. All of us are the same and are bonded by 'Band of Ikhwan'.

Maybe people who are non-Muslim would look at Islam in a bad perspective, but don't make assumption. Look deeply and learn on what Islam is, then only make your statement. A real Muslim would never do any violence act, furthermore be a terrorist. If you really have questions on Islam, ask, don't make assumption. I'll try my best to answer.

Islam is beautiful :: Islam is peace :: Islam respects others :: Band of Ikhwan - Muslim and Muslimah, Doing Dakwah is a must for each one of us ::
mustaq
Maxgamer wrote:
First and foremost, I am a Muslim, so, I might be bias here..

Nevertheless.. second thing, why are you guys saying that only the Arabian is Muslim people? I'm not an Arabic people, never went to Arab country, but I am a Muslim. There are a lot of Muslim out there, in Indonesia, Myanmar, Thailand, Malaysia and even in U.K, U.S, Russia and lots more. In fact, Islam is the fastest growing religion in this world. Don't generalized Asian or Arabs as Muslim. Islam doesn't care whether an individual is White, Black, Chinese, Indian, Malay or whatsoever. What important is, we only pray to one God, Allah and follow what He says. All of us are the same and are bonded by 'Band of Ikhwan'.

Maybe people who are non-Muslim would look at Islam in a bad perspective, but don't make assumption. Look deeply and learn on what Islam is, then only make your statement. A real Muslim would never do any violence act, furthermore be a terrorist. If you really have questions on Islam, ask, don't make assumption. I'll try my best to answer.

Islam is beautiful :: Islam is peace :: Islam respects others :: Band of Ikhwan - Muslim and Muslimah, Doing Dakwah is a must for each one of us ::


well said maxgamer, wel in this forum i found have slogan against islam in there signature ,admin never mind of those those where all kind of people in one commniuty (or frihost admin agaist islam ).its really hurt other inocent people who think there is not racis or some thing like that
maming
Islam is not a peacefull or tolerant religeon.
Islamic idea of evangelisim: Kill the infedels
Biodiesel
The world isn't big enough for all of us, that's for sure.
r_y_e_20
I do think this thread must be better posted in philosophy and religion.
mustaq
maming wrote:
Islam is not a peacefull or tolerant religeon.
Islamic idea of evangelisim: Kill the infedels


i think your still kid not able to make different between Islam and terrorist , well recent terrorists killed many Muslim in India do you think if any one love there religion will kill there own religion people its all don’t by politic to gain there place and most of them done by terrorist where Islam and terrorist don’t have any connection


Source for terror attack on Islam
http://indianexpress.com/story/12282.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5326730.stm
LimpFish
Although that I do not believe that all muslims are terrorists, or even support terrorism. I think it is a fact that the holy scriptures of Islam justify violence against "infidels" to a degree totally incomparable of at least christianity. Hinduism, buddhism, etc. I do not know enough about to make this comparison with.
Bikerman
Do you want me to list the occasions where God calls for non-Jews to be butchered in the Old Testament? OK..

Quote:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)


Quote:
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)


Quote:
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)


Quote:
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


Quote:
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

(nasty - getting the parents to commit the murder...)

Quote:
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


So...if ANY person tries to convert a Jew (read Christian since they nicked it) then not only is that person dead, but the whole town needs murdering and trashing....
Quote:
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Quote:
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)


There are more, I'll have to dig out my KJV to quote them though...

And you say the Quran is 'incomparably' worse that this?
LimpFish
Bikerman wrote:
Do you want me to list the occasions where God calls for non-Jews to be butchered in the Old Testament? OK..

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
(nasty - getting the parents to commit the murder...)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

So...if ANY person tries to convert a Jew (read Christian since they nicked it) then not only is that person dead, but the whole town needs murdering and trashing....


I mentioned christians. You are talking about jews. But since we do not see a lot of jewish terrorism today, I guess that argues for that it is not only the holy scripture in Islam condoning violence that is the cause but also something else.

Regarding christians, I too find it a bit problematic with scriptures like the ones you mention. However, that was before Jesus had come. Christians obviously believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and try to live after his teachings as much as possible. As you probably know, they preach to treat others (regardless of religion or ethnicity etc) better than yourself.
Bikerman
LimpFish wrote:
Regarding christians, I too find it a bit problematic with scriptures like the ones you mention. However, that was before Jesus had come. Christians obviously believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and try to live after his teachings as much as possible. As you probably know, they preach to treat others (regardless of religion or ethnicity etc) better than yourself.

And what did Jesus regard as HIS law? - the Hebrew bible. And what did Jesus say about the Hebrew Bible?

""Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished."

Sounds like a ringing endorsement to me....
pscompanies
I have no doubt that the incident and ruling that the author of the topic described represents a form of cruel and inhuman punishment. What I do not understand, however, is how the author wishes to denounce Islam based on this case. Although the Islamic law called the Shar'ia has numerous archaic forms of punishment, so does the Bible and the Torah. More importantly, the decision was handed down by an Iranian court and is not based on religious motives, but rather is an extension of the totalitarian regime that controls the country.
liljp617
pscompanies wrote:
I have no doubt that the incident and ruling that the author of the topic described represents a form of cruel and inhuman punishment. What I do not understand, however, is how the author wishes to denounce Islam based on this case. Although the Islamic law called the Shar'ia has numerous archaic forms of punishment, so does the Bible and the Torah. More importantly, the decision was handed down by an Iranian court and is not based on religious motives, but rather is an extension of the totalitarian regime that controls the country.


Are you going to follow that up with an argument that the "totalitarian regime" is not an extension of Islam?
supermanlovejan
Islam is religion. ...........
Bikerman
Yes, I see far too much of this no-true Scotsman fallacy recently. Well, Scotland has rejected independence and I reject this fallacious line of argument.

Muslims are falling over themselves to say that the 'Islamic Caliphate' (aka ISIS, Islamic State or ISIL) is nothing to do with Islam. Huh? Sorry? Run that one past me again...the state founders say it is an Islamic state, they say that their inspiration, motivation and intentions are ENTIRELY Islamic. So saying is has nothing to do with Islam seems, to put it mildly, disingenuous.

Now, if people wish to say that 'it is a different understanding of Islam to the one I embrace' - then fine. That would, at least, be a little more honest. It also would tacitly accept that which seems to me to be a fact - the only serious way to say that Person A belongs to Religion X is to rely on Person A to SAY that he/she belongs to Religion X.

This may annoy those who would wish that Person A didn't claim to share their religion. They may, indeed, wish that Person A would take a long walk off a short cliff, but there seems to be no better way of establishing a person's religion than simply accepting their own self-identification. Anything else would require someone or some organisation to take unto itself the power of judging who can and who cannot count themselves members of a particular faith. I do not believe that any person or any body has such authority, mandate or power.

For specific sects then, yes, this is possible. The Catholic Church is set-up in such a way that a person can be declared 'out of communion' - not exactly revoking membership, more 'suspended indefinitely'. Since this is built into the sect then it is valid. For Christianity in general, however, there is no such authority and no such power. The same is true - if anything MORE so - for Islam. No person or organisation has the power, mandate or authority to declare on who is and who is not a Muslim.

So, if someone who claims to be a member of your faith group commits atrocities, please don't say 'that person is nothing to do with my religion' because it is a deception, a deliberately misleading assertion which you have no authority to make and which, is therefore, a lie.

Here is the UK there is a closely related matter which is equally misunderstood and abused. It has been found that, in a Northern Town a group of Pakistani males ran a sexual abuse service - basically grooming young girls in care, then renting them out for sex to punters. The levels of abuse - physical & emotional - were actually too graphic to detail here (an example that I can give - some of the girls were doused in petrol and told that any refusal to comply with demands for whatever acts were demanded of them would result in a lighter being applied and them burning to death).

Needless to say this has shocked people and there is a deal of hand-wringing, 'where did it all go wrong' and similar 'analysis' filling the media. Many Brits who are ethnically Pakistani have complained bitterly that the news reports rarely fail to mention that the criminal gang were exclusively Pakistani. A frequently heard complaint is 'they don't identify other serious offenders by race in nearly all cases'. True, but red-herring. The ethnicity of the offenders is not an irrelevance. Some Pakistani commentators have been honest enough to say that attitudes to women and the infantilisation of young males, with every decision made for them, are not completely unrelated to the issue.

Nobody of my acquaintance is stupid enough to draw simple relationships like 'Pakistani = likely sex offender' or anything so dumb. This is a complex matter with all sorts of interweaving and interplay between social class, ethnicity, familial and community actors, and much more. To deny that culture/ethnicity has any role in the matter, however, is to fall into the same trap that allowed this damnable abuse to go on for years - despite numerous detailed reports being filed with appropriate bodies, including the police. A major factor in the whole mess was an almost pathological fear of being branded racist on the part of officials who were duty bound to act. This misguided idea of political correctness is dangerous as well as idiotic. When people refuse to acknowledge facts because they are uncomfortable or embarrassing or they fear of being unfairly branded as a result, they allow this sort of major breakdown in societal functioning to take hold and persist - and the results can be horrifying.
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