.. well you decide
http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/06/iran_man_senten.php
| Quote: |
Here's an example of Islamic law that should serve as a warning to the West; ignoring the Islamic threat and it's agenda is certain to result in disasterous societal and cultural changes that few in the West can fathom. But one need only to look at Iran to see how base and archaec life under Islamic law would be like.
Iran’s State Supreme Court has upheld a sentence for a young man’s eyes to be gouged out and sprayed with acid, for blinding another man at the age of 16 some 12 years ago. |
ikes!!!
Gonzo is grouping all muslims together.
Hitler was supposedly Christian right... well It's like grouping Hitler together with all other christians.
Does this qualify as Flaming? I'm just rying to get a clear understanding of the rules.
You should really have put a disclaimer on that link. Not one for the fainted-hearted.
Gotta love a country where you can be shot for dancing in the street...
No, I don't really think it's flaming. I do believe there was another thread a long time ago about a woman who was raped by her father-in-law that kinda criticized Muslim law.
I'll keep this thread open.
| earthchild wrote: |
Hitler was supposedly Christian right... |
no he was supposedly jewish by birthright. he was also not supposedly a pink flying monkey or child of Pan. And most of us know who that is really, so I'm sure you don't want to go there now.
| Quote: |
| Does this qualify as Flaming? . |
no. This is another frightening example of (sharia) muslim law. Muslimism is fair game especially this STATE SANCTIONED ACT OF BARBARISM
This wasn't one wacko muslim with a scalpel in a back alley. This was a "court" upheld, allegedly "just" practice.
hello? did you read the article? or were you too busy hacking together a logically flawed analogy?I'll certainly give you the fact that acts of barbarism shouldn't be tolerated. It's just important to recognize that not all muslims are the same. believe it or not there are many muslims who dislike terrorism and human rights abuses as much as you do.
When you title your post as "Islam is" and then condemn an action taken in an Islamic state - you are certainly grouping a whole bunch (millions of people) together under your condemnation.
regarding flaming - I'm just trying to get a sense of the rules. (it isn't personal)
arabian (most of them ) like animals they act like idiots their laws is hmmm i've seen better...
i was in hotel and so was arabian family at first they get in the pool with everything on (sure whay to clean after if you can get the clothes clean in the pool) also they used to drink at the pool and they must think that it's fun to throw the glass inside the water. and when i was gowing to my room one of their kids wanted to.... well let's just say thet he wasent' able to open the door so he did it on it....YACK... and much more...
next time i go to vacation i ask if there was any arabian lately...
I have no doubt that the incident and ruling that the author of the topic described represents a form of cruel and inhuman punishment. What I do not understand, however, is how the author wishes to denounce Islam based on this case. Although the Islamic law called the Shar'ia has numerous archaic forms of punishment, so does the Bible and the Torah. More importantly, the decision was handed down by an Iranian court and is not based on religious motives, but rather is an extension of the totalitarian regime that controls the country.
| nik wrote: |
arabian (most of them ) like animals they act like idiots their laws is hmmm i've seen better...
i was in hotel and so was arabian family at first they get in the pool with everything on (sure whay to clean after if you can get the clothes clean in the pool) also they used to drink at the pool and they must think that it's fun to throw the glass inside the water. and when i was gowing to my room one of their kids wanted to.... well let's just say thet he wasent' able to open the door so he did it on it....YACK... and much more...
next time i go to vacation i ask if there was any arabian lately... |
I believe this is yet another case of generalizing opinions based on the actions of one small group of individuals.
Honestly, if such generalizations were justified, the whole world would believe that America is immoral based on "Sex And The City"wold you really base your views on islam according to that, i mean im muslim and im pretty sure if i did something like that no1 would rip my eyes out. there are just some people who go to extremes, those laws if they were real, are from the past and today things have changed and its obviously not right to do something that severe for a small crime. people just have to learn to move on
gonzo: can you get sources from actual news sites please...
not anti-islam propaganda please.
thanks.
Peacefull Muslims don't follow the true teachings of Islam.
Islam is not a peacefull or tolerant religeon.
Islamic idea of evangelisim: Kill the infedels.
| ocalhoun wrote: |
Peacefull Muslims don't follow the true teachings of Islam.
Islam is not a peacefull or tolerant religeon.
Islamic idea of evangelisim: Kill the infedels. |
I never saw a relegion that is completely peacefull and tolerant.
There is no possible way you can determine what the true teachings of a religion are. Just an example, if you are a 'true' Christian, do you need to believe in creationism?The only peacful religion I know of is Buddism.
wow, its quite amazing what kind of ignorance is randomly spewed sometimes.
A totalitarian regime has an inhumane punishment...nothing new in this world, nor original to Islam. Countless cultures have had inhumane laws....such as slavery in the United States. The Catholic Church has a history of violence longer then most countries' military records. Pope Innocent III (or maybe the second) was well-known for his absolutely inhumane tortures of criminals who did far less then blinding a man.
All I'm saying is stop spewing hate towards a particular group, it shows ignorance and the author of this topic did essentially nothing to back up his view....or at least nothing worth mention. Please don't mak stereotypical generalizations, it makes the wolrd a much better place...
tghe Topic starter really took everyone for a spin here ,
first of all no one has the right to say bad things about other religions ,
there can be loop holes in islamic laws , but that doesnt make all muslims bad ,
second muslim laws are the laws which were given to them from moses ,
we christains just dont practice that since we beleave in jesus , and the muslims dont ,
budha Was a hindu , he dint beleave in any religion ,
from what i know Buddists belive in everything...
arabian have another way of life. just' watch the news see the streets the way they look and what they wear it's not europian nor american. maybe what they do and how they act is ok to them, not to me...
nik the E.T messiah said this : | Quote: |
| from what i know Buddists belive in everything... |
except the bad orthography (learn speak & spell ur own language dude), thereis a more significative mistake , for information, Buddhists may believe in everything... except in God ...
Buddhism is not a religion, but a philosophy, a spiritual^path, a way of life...They are against any form of religion, thinking it locks the soul up...
In this it join Coran and muslims in a way, because their sacred book is a code of living, like ur penal code and juridic laws, those that allows u bomb innocent childrens in foreign countries and steal the blood of a land like a dirt vampire '(lana lang?)
But sure some old shaped actions could be modernized, it just needs a bit of education...(like u maybe?)
| Quote: |
| the streets the way they look and what they wear it's not europian nor american. maybe what they do and how they act is ok to them, not to me... |
So, if u see buddhists monks dressed like guantanamo prisoners (yea,same color lol), u will complain and tell them to dress like everybody ?
Conformism is not good at high rates...
And the streets... haha, u wouldn't sure be welcome in many hoods with such a way of ^mind young bway 
Yes, I agree with Gonzo, extreme muslim law is totally medieval and can really shock in 2005. Islam is not a progressist religion.... Still it looks like all monotheist religions have the same problem. They are very exclusive and not tolerant at all. The 3 of them are involved in unstoppable wars for power... Can we still call them religions..I wonder. If you see what Bagdad looks like now... What will you say about puritan christians ?.. They have just destroyed one of the oldest human heritage... Hope this will stop... If only everyone was turning into a budhist......
| Bondings wrote: |
| ocalhoun wrote: | Peacefull Muslims don't follow the true teachings of Islam.
Islam is not a peacefull or tolerant religeon.
Islamic idea of evangelisim: Kill the infedels. |
I never saw a relegion that is completely peacefull and tolerant.
There is no possible way you can determine what the true teachings of a religion are. |
Are you really sure you want to play the "I cannot know anything" game?
| Quote: |
| if you are a 'true' Christian, do you need to believe in creationism? |
By true do you mean Catholic? If so the answer is no. As the splinter churchers are rooted in the grave error of individualism, well, that takes us back to the game I advise you not to start.
| earthchild wrote: |
| I'll certainly give you the fact that acts of barbarism shouldn't be tolerated |
Great, and how do you reconcile that with Sharia law, per se?
| Quote: |
| not all muslims are the same |
It's also important to avoid EQUIVOCATION. What characteristics do all muslims share? It cannot be nothing BY DEFINITION.
| Quote: |
| "Islam is" and then condemn an action taken in an Islamic state - you are certainly grouping a whole bunch (millions of people) together under your condemnation. |
Yes, I am. Do you also not understand the role of the state and how the state gets its power?
| boho999 wrote: |
| The only peacful religion I know of is Buddism. |
Then you tempt me to say "then you don't know much". Buddhism is NOT a religion.
| Dread Lord Chaos wrote: |
| wThe Catholic Church has a history of violence longer then most countries' military records |
Speaking of not backing up assertions... wow
| Dread Lord Chaos wrote: |
| All I'm saying is stop spewing hate towards a particular group |
:sigh: Exactly what do you think the word "hate" means?
Are you really trying to say "stop saying things that other people woudln't agree with"? How many people? Just one person? What if I don't agree with you, O, prelate? Ought you then remain silent?
| Quote: |
| the author of this topic did essentially nothing to back up his view |
Does the concept "self evident" similarly escape you?
| Flower Powder wrote: |
| Y exclusive and not tolerant at all. |
I am very intolerant of evil. Why aren't you?
(note to the especially dim: I did not just assert Muslims are evil.)
Blue is an exclusive color. It marginalizes red, orange, helioptrope. Maybe we should quit using it.. and ban looking at the sky.
DEFINITIONS form limitations, this 'exclusivity' that you irrationally fear.
why?
...
Islam is what it is. What's wrong ith looking at it?? | boho999 wrote: |
| The only peacful religion I know of is Buddism. |
Buddism is a peaceful religion. The true Buddism encourage vegetarian because Buddism not allow killing.If you read the kuran you'd see what islam isnt, and it isnt suicide bombers or terrorists, in fact that would probably be as sinful as it is to christians, but then im a pagan so I wont say anymore 
Just like christianity at various times through its life, it's just being used has a tool to carry out propaganda and control people but there are more ordinary muslims who would never have anything to do with terrorism or eye gouging, iran may have some way to go but remember we were still hanging people not long ago at all. | nik wrote: |
arabian (most of them ) like animals they act like idiots their laws is hmmm i've seen better...
i was in hotel and so was arabian family at first they get in the pool with everything on (sure whay to clean after if you can get the clothes clean in the pool) also they used to drink at the pool and they must think that it's fun to throw the glass inside the water. and when i was gowing to my room one of their kids wanted to.... well let's just say thet he wasent' able to open the door so he did it on it....YACK... and much more...
next time i go to vacation i ask if there was any arabian lately... |
every one has his one culture. You don't think it's normal, but hey are thinking that maybe also about you.
Have respect | nik wrote: |
from what i know Buddists belive in everything...
arabian have another way of life. just' watch the news see the streets the way they look and what they wear it's not europian nor american. maybe what they do and how they act is ok to them, not to me... |
So now ju must understand that every one is different. I am a muslim, but i am not an arab you know, i have an other culture, i am an amazigh (Berber) and the most of them whear western clothes, but some of them not.
Do you want to walk in the desert with the clothes you now weare
and that's the same with the north and southpole, sometimes you can't
think about that | Flower Powder wrote: |
| Yes, I agree with Gonzo, extreme muslim law is totally medieval and can really shock in 2005. Islam is not a progressist religion.... Still it looks like all monotheist religions have the same problem. They are very exclusive and not tolerant at all. The 3 of them are involved in unstoppable wars for power... Can we still call them religions..I wonder. If you see what Bagdad looks like now... What will you say about puritan christians ?.. They have just destroyed one of the oldest human heritage... Hope this will stop... If only everyone was turning into a budhist...... |
Why ?????
Because you think that that wil be good.
Read first the Qoraan and then you can give youre opinion, and that goes also about the bibel and the tenachI agree with the theory of an eye for an eye. I, however, disagree with the barbaric means to carry out the sentance. Most muslims are barbaric. By barbaric I don't mean violent. Compared to western civilization, eastern muclims (what I meant when I said "most") are more primitive and barbaric.
| geeren wrote: |
Read first the Qoraan and then you can give youre opinion |
| Qur’an 9.29 wrote: |
| Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. |
| Judges 16 wrote: |
16:26And Samson said unto the lad that held him by the hand, Suffer me that I may feel the pillars whereupon the house standeth, that I may lean upon them.
16:27Now the house was full of men and women; and all the lords of the Philistines were there; and there were upon the roof about three thousand men and women, that beheld while Samson made sport.
16:28And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.
16:29And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left.
16:30And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life. |
So in this God-approved act, Samson, the suicide terrorist, killed 3000 men and women. Ok, he didn't use a plane, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still more than the 2.749 people killed in New York.And there's plenty more where that came from.
Classic Old Testament!
No one ever said Islam is the only religion that has ever done anything of that nature. The majority of religious terrorists today happen to be muslim. That's the main point.
I have read the Koran and lets just say I'm not impressed. If it was the only religion out there it would have to do but Buddhism, New Testament Christianity stripped of it's historical baggage, Shinto, and animist beliefs to name a few are more philosophically sound. I really don't care to argue the point but theology without sound philosophy is not likely to produce an highly organized and progressive society.
This is just my opinion but the fact that I can express it here without fear and would face severe penalties for the same post in the only working Islamic theocracy, Iran, should make you wonder if being politically correct is politically naive.
I can't believe this topic is even under debate. While the acts of Iran as a fundamentalist theocracy may be abhorrent, condemning Islam for said acts is nothing short of blind naivety.
Is Christianity to be condemned for the crusades? Judaism for the actions of Israel and the slaughter of Palestinian men, women and children? Hinduism or Buddhism for India's actions in Kashmere or the ongoing civil war in Sri Lanka?
I would hope that your answer to these questions would be no!
What is at fault here is not the religions themselves but quite simply extreme fundamentalism wherever it is practiced and no matter what religious philosophy it follows.
Think about that and all the other very real atrocities committed above by fundamentalists from all walks of faith, philosophy and religion before you are so quick to condemn Islam and its many followers.
Thanks... 
PS I am not Islamic or a member of any of the aforementioned religions. Just trying to bring some reality and tolerance to this debate.
One of the reason why people hate islam is because of the media. The Media sometimes gives a spin on the meaning and the religion. Which means that you should research Islam a little more deeper.
I'd like to point out a few problems with gonzo's idea. First, as many others have already pointed out you can not apply to all muslims the principles/laws of one absurd radical regime.
| gonzo wrote: |
| Quote: | | "Islam is" and then condemn an action taken in an Islamic state - you are certainly grouping a whole bunch (millions of people) together under your condemnation. |
Yes, I am. Do you also not understand the role of the state and how the state gets its power? |
The government in Iran is a revolutionary one, a reaction to the dictator that the US installed there in the 50s. The revolution of 1979 eventually led to this government that we see now. Though it may have had majority support of the population of Iran at the time of the uprising I see no reason to believe it is still so. Saying that this is Islam is like saying that being French involves executing all of those that disagree with you, as the government of Maximilien Robespierre did during the French Revolution. I'm sure we all can agree that that would be silly, and so is this.
Final point: Did you know that way back in about 632 AD the Muslim State (under the "Rightly Guided Caliphs"-those closest to Muhammad) was far more tolerant than the Catholic Church ever was? Back in about 632 AD religious tolerance in the Muslim State was great. Despite being a theocracy there was little discrimination; Christians and Jews (people of the book) played an important part in the government. In addition the Qu'ran forbids forced conversion.
The Catholic Church was not so tolerant, I'm sure we all know of the Crusades.
So perhaps there are some Muslims who follow Islam, as it was originally constructed and are thus tolerant of others. Point A: If you knew anything about history you would know that the Crusades may appear to be religious in nature they were in fact part of an attempt to unify the west against the very real threat that the Islamic forces would conquer all of Western Europe.
Point B: Why is it that some people think they can justify the existence of the ignorant superstitions in one culture "Islamic" by comparing them to the ignorant superstitions of another "Catholicism".
Islam is a religion with order Cristian or Budist Etc
Islam is culture
Islam is peace
Islan not terrorist
By: Spanish Ciudadane
Islam is just another superstitious collection of mumbo jumbo. I don't feel obligated to admire that superstition anymore than any other just because it may offend someone. If you want 100 virgins you better get them here on earth because that is the only place you are going to find them.
The only purpose that kind of religion serves is to divide people.
In the words of John Lenon "Imagine all the people living life as one". No Heaven no Hell.
| wolfhnd wrote: |
| Point A: If you knew anything about history you would know that the Crusades may appear to be religious in nature they were in fact part of an attempt to unify the west against the very real threat that the Islamic forces would conquer all of Western Europe. |
Ah yes, but the stated reason was religion. Perhaps that has something in common with what happened here?
| wolfhnd wrote: |
| Point B: Why is it that some people think they can justify the existence of the ignorant superstitions in one culture "Islamic" by comparing them to the ignorant superstitions of another "Catholicism". |
For the reason that a number of people think the ignorant superstitions of Catholicisim are valid. | wolfhnd wrote: |
| In the words of John Lenon "Imagine all the people living life as one". No Heaven no Hell. |
While I think we can all agree that John Lenon's words represent a terrific ideal, it is not an expression of the need to abolish and or condemn certain religions. Peaceful and rational Muslims have demonstrated that they can and will live alongside other religions just as well as peaceful and rational Christians, Buddhists, Jews or what have you.
The spirit of Lenon's words are peace and tolerance not conformity or derisive condemnation.You were not listening "no religion too" I think your going to find that there has developed an intolerance amonst many people for religion in general.
| wolfhnd wrote: |
| Islam is just another superstitious collection of mumbo jumbo. I don't feel obligated to admire that superstition anymore than any other just because it may offend someone. |
And perhaps you ought to know that Christianity is nothing but a mass of confusion, and overzealous missionaries determined to make everyone believe that the only way to get to Heaven is to believe in Christ:
link
And
| Quote: |
Genesis 1:3-5
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
=========
God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? |
... and I don't feel obligated to not bring this point up just because someone wrote | Quote: |
| Why is it that some people think they can justify the existence of the ignorant superstitions in one culture "Islamic" by comparing them to the ignorant superstitions of another "Catholicism". |
The bottom line is that just about every religion is flawed. The only way we can all live in peace is to have either no religions or to have just one religion followed by everyone on Earth. Since neither scenario is practically possible, let's just stop bitching about other religions and follow the "live and let live" policy.
Let me predict... you're going to say that the radical Islamists should learn the "live and let live" policy first, because they're the terrorists. I agree, however, let's not generalize the whole of Islam based on this minority of Muslims.
| wolfhnd wrote: |
| You were not listening "no religion too" I think your going to find that there has developed an intolerance amonst many people for religion in general. |
This is probably primarily because of everyone forcing their religion on people, and everyone forcing others to believe that their religion is supreme. ****** it, I said it before, I'll say it again... live and let live"live and let live" is a saying of athiesm. and Athiest is not the corret way to go because they believe that there is no god. Believing that is entirely wrong because there is a god. A god that made this universe, a god that created you.
AND MUSLIMS ARENT TERRORISTS.
Why are the americans invading OUR countries???
Why did Muslims invade Spain in 711?
I decided to add to the list
Why did the Muslims invade Jerusalem in 638 and steal it from the Christians?
Why did the Muslims destroy the great civilivation of Persia in 644?
Why did the Muslims destroy the great Byzantine civilization in 1453?
But mostly why do you feel the need to support such a blood thirsty religion? | wolfhnd wrote: |
I decided to add to the list
Why did the Muslims invade Jerusalem in 638 and steal it from the Christians?
Why did the Muslims destroy the great civilivation of Persia in 644?
Why did the Muslims destroy the great Byzantine civilization in 1453?
But mostly why do you feel the need to support such a blood thirsty religion? |
I am not supporting the actions of radical fundamentalist Muslims but instead trying to ask you to see the difference between the radicals within a religion and the religion itself or the reasonable individuals who practice it.
As I mentioned in a previous post fundamentalists and radicals in every religion throughout history have been involved in horrible atrocities and conflicts. Moreover these conflicts are not just limited to religious fundamentalists but other radicals have instigated them as well due to their extreme beliefs. A classic (and cliched) example would have to be the Nazis. Take a destitute German populace and pair them with an extremely radical man with a vision, and a terrific propoganda machine and finally give them all a common enemy to blame their current problems on and what do you get? World War II! Why? Not because of religion per se but because of extreme beliefs and radical ideals.
As a previous poster said "live and let live" is the only course to real peace. While some actions by Muslim states must be condemned, please show some tolerance and understanding for other Muslims who are also struggling against the very same fundamentalists you hate and who merely want to practice their own chosen beliefs in private and in peace.The first few civilizations were destroyed by the founder of the religion himself. Now ask yourself what other religion was founded by a man who was personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people in wars design to spread their teachings.
It is estimated that 10,000,000 people died between the 7th and 17th centuries as a direct result of Islamic wars of conquest.
It is just history I feel no need to white wash it the way modern Muslim are like to do.
Just to be fair.
Voltaire [Francois-Marie Arouet] (1694 - 1778): "Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world."
Wolfhnd mann, you r basically saying that every religion is bloody. which one are you from?
| AgenthHero wrote: |
| "live and let live" is a saying of athiesm. and Athiest is not the corret way to go because they believe that there is no god. Believing that is entirely wrong because there is a god. A god that made this universe, a god that created you. |
Come again...?
"Live and let live" is a saying of atheism? What in the world led you to believe that? I believe in God with all my heart. I believe that God does exist, I believe that God is the final judge of my actions on this world, and most importantly, I believe that God wants us to live in peace, and not kill each other... which is basically what live and let live means.
And as for all this about Islam being an all-devouring bloodthirsty religion... well, what about Christianity? I don't have anything against the religion, but everywhere you look is a missionary telling you that the only way to get to Heaven is to believe in Christ or the Holy Spirit.
Want examples...
Spain invades the Aztec culture in 1521.
Here's some interesting stuff from wikipedia:
| Quote: |
An anonymous Aztec poet wrote:
How can we save our homes, my people
The Aztecs are deserting the city
The city is in flames and all
is darkness and destruction
Weep my people
Know that with these disasters
We have lost the Mexican nation
The water has turned bitter
Our food is bitter
These are the acts of the Giver of Life.
– From the Informantes Anónimos de Tlatelolco, compiled in 1521. |
| Quote: |
| ...Eventually, the Indians were not only forbidden to learn of their cultures, but also were forbidden to learn to read and write in Spanish, and, under the law, they had the status of minors.... |
And though this is long, I couldn't resist posting it:
| Quote: |
A record survives of a dialogue between the last tlatimine or wise men, and the missionaries, where the Aztec try to defend their ways, this reflects the sadness of their defeat:
Lords, respected lords: You have traveled much to get to this land.
Here in front of you,
we contemplate you, we ignorant people...
And now, what are we going to tell you?
What is what we must address to your ears?
Are we something indeed?
We are just vulgar people...
By means of a translator we will answer,
we will return the breath and the word
about the lord of the near and far. (ometeotl /omecihuatl)
It's by his word, that we risk ourselves,
that we put ourselves in danger...
Maybe this is our loss,
maybe is our destruction,
where are we going to be taken?
Where should we go?
We are vulgar people
we are perishable, we are mortal.
Let us die, let us perish,
since our gods are dead.
But there should be peace on your
hearts and your body,
Milords!
we will break a little,
we will show a little,
the secret, the ark of the lord, our God
You said
that we did not know
about the lord of the near and far,
about of one who created earth and sky.
you said
That our gods are not true.
This is a new word,
this that you have spoken.
This is why we are disturbed,
this is why we are annoyed.
Because our ancestors,
the ones that had been,
the ones that had lived on this earth,
they did not speak like that.
They give us the ways of life,
they take by true,
they give cult,
they honored the gods......
they teach us the ways of the cult,
all the ways to honor the gods.
That way we put the mouth on earth,
by them we bleed us,
we accomplished our votes,
we burn copal
and offered sacrifice.
(....)
We know to whom we owe life.
To whom we owe birth,
to whom we owe to be beget
to whom we owe to grow,
and how to invoke...
(....)
Hear milords
do not harm your people.
Do not let disgrace to be carried,
to let it perish...
tranquil, and friendly,
take this account, milords,
of what is needed.
(....)
Here are the ones who rule us,
the ones that take us,
the ones that have the world in charge.
Is it not enough that we are defeated?
that we are taken away?
that we are taken from our rulers?
If in this place we are to stand,
we will be prisoners.
So Do with us what you want,
This is what we have spoken,
what we answered,
to your breath,
to your word,
oh lords! |
And don't tell me you've never heard of Christian Terrorists
By the way, the Ku Klux Klan was a racist Protestant Christian organization. Should I be led to believe that all Christians are racist and seek nothing but the subjugation of all other religions?
Yet again, let me tell you... I have nothing against religion nor against any religion in particular. However, I'm very passionate about the "live and let live" ideal, which I firmly believe is one of the only, (if not the only) way to achieve peace, as far as religion is concerned. | Quote: |
By DEVIL:
second muslim laws are the laws which were given to them from moses , |
My question is where is your proof that our religion's laws are based/given from Moses??? I am a Muslim, and our Prophet is Prophet Muhammad (SAW = P.B.U.H), not Prophet Musa (AS = P.B.U.H).
Also our teachings were not exactly made by the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), they were actually made by GOD, my God and Islam's God!!!!
Now I would like to tell you a bit about Shari'a Law. Shari'a means holy law, basically what i told you that it came from God. So any law that we use to deal punishment or any other form of justice is really in a way God's desicion. We we're given these Laws by God, we didn't make them!!!
NUNIPIO, you made an earlier post that you we're Muslim. You also said that the Sharia's laws are of the past, where is your proof of that. These laws are not the past they are to be used even today but sadly most of them aren't implemented in the courts and governments of Muslim countries these days!!!!
In conclusion, i would like to say that i disagree with terrorism. Whether it's being done by Muslims or America or even Canada. But what they did to that man is not something wrong, as i see it he deserves it, i mean he made a person blind then why not get the same punishment!
Before i leave this thread for now, i have a question. When someone kills another person in America, he is executed automatically!!! Why then do you not talk about the punishments of the Americans??? | earthchild wrote: |
Gonzo is grouping all muslims together.
Hitler was supposedly Christian right... well It's like grouping Hitler together with all other christians.
Does this qualify as Flaming? I'm just rying to get a clear understanding of the rules. |
just for you to know... a bit of history. he liked Vagner "masterpieces" just because they were about the german tribes stories and the paganism calture the germans had long before christianity.
as for the Islam.... you should realy look into what the Koran says about the non-Islam people. read and then decide. | wolfhnd wrote: |
Why did Muslims invade Spain in 711?
Why did the Muslims invade Jerusalem in 638 and steal it from the Christians?
Why did the Muslims destroy the great civilivation of Persia in 644?
Why did the Muslims destroy the great Byzantine civilization in 1453?
But mostly why do you feel the need to support such a blood thirsty religion? |
Why did the Byzantines try to retake the former Roman empire?
Why did the Romans conquer the surrounding territories?
Why did Ghengis Khan create the largest contigous kingdom in history?
Perhaps the answer to all of these is "for the benefit of the nation" (or the psychotic ramblings of whatever ruler they had at the time)?
As to the last question, I don't find the need to support any religion, bloodthirsty or not. What I do feel the need to do is to defend the people who practice the religion from being stereotyped along unfair lines.
| wolfhnd wrote: |
The first few civilizations were destroyed by the founder of the religion himself. Now ask yourself what other religion was founded by a man who was personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people in wars design to spread their teachings.
It is estimated that 10,000,000 people died between the 7th and 17th centuries as a direct result of Islamic wars of conquest.
It is just history I feel no need to white wash it the way modern Muslim are like to do. |
Well, as long as we're citing history, in his Secret History Procopius says that the Byzantine Emperor Justinian killed "trillions of people". Now I know as well as you do that this figure is incorrect, but I do provide it to illustrate a point: people die in wars. Not to mention the fact that Justinian could have, in his reign, killed enough people to be mistaken for a trillion, whereas in 1000 years the Muslim Empire only reached 10 million is rather interesting. Even if you don't want to take that as a valid point we can look at the numbers of people killed in the Crusades or in the Hundred Years war or in any number of other wars and the point will still stand.My Dear and respected fellow human beings:
Whether you are for or against what I have written, I cant verbally express my appreciation towards you taking the time to read and respond to me with any questions or concerns! If I may only ask you to open your minds and try to look upon my article with a broad mind !I sincerly thank you and appreciate your feedback and questions!!!!!!
Concept of Peace in Islam
"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace" (The Quran 8:61)
The Word "Islam"
The "root" of the word "Islam" in Arabic is SALAMA which is the origin of the words Peace & / or Submission, a submission to God and peace to all humanity. It is, thus, no wonder why the salutation in Islam is: "Al-Salamu Alaikum or "Peace be upon to You."
In this regard, prophet Mohammad ordered his fellow Muslims to salute others Muslims or non-Muslims with peace when he said: "Peace Before Speech"
It is a Rule in Islam that during war time, an enemy warrior who pronounces the word peace is totally immune.
No Coercion In Islam
Unlike many other religions where people were offered either conversion and peace or death, Islam came with the just word of our creator. In Quran 2:256; God said "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error..." There are many other verses in the Quran that deals with the nature of spreading God's message. One of my favorites which I keep quoting is Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's Will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! Wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" These verses and many others show how much emphasis Islam places on the mind of people, Muslims or non-Muslims.
Justice & Fairness to Non-Muslims
In This regard, Muslims are governed by the rules that the relationship with non-Muslims should be based on justice, mutual respect, cooperation, and communication. The Quran is very explicit about the justice part of the relationship when God stated in Verse 60:08 "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just."
The Ultimate Justice
Another prominent example that I keep referring to concerning the just treatment of Islam to non-Muslims; is the fact that while a husband is allowed to ask his Muslim wife not to go to the Mosque; he has no right to ask his wife to go to Church or Synagogue if it happens that the wife is a Christian or a Jew.
Peace and Jihad
The root of the word Jihad is Jahada which means "spent the energy". The following need some clarification concerning the concept of Jihad in Islam:
The acts of Jihad are limitless in Islam. Work, going to school, or any good dead is considereed an act of jihad!
Defending your family, money, land, country...etc. by all means including the armed means are also considered Jihad
Misrepresentation of Anti-Islam
Anti-Muslims resort to a deceitful misrepresentation when they misquote the Quranic verses of the second chapter. They claim that Quran promoted killing the infidels wherever you find them. Indeed, this is true but only if the infidels attack Muslims. Here are the verses complete:
[b]
Quran 2:190-193.
Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.
Contemporary Counterpart of Jihad
The United Nation's Charter does explicitly discuss the right of the occupied people to resist their occupiers. The legitimacy of fighting aggression by means of Jihad or armed struggle is extended not only from the Islamic teachings but also from the international law and UN Charter.
Morality & Ethics of Jihad
The legitimacy of annihilating the oppressive forces and military occupation is not limited to Islam or international law and UN Charter. In fact, it is very much morally and ethically unacceptable to people with minimum level of dignity and self respect to accept the life of slaves under the military machine rule of alien invaders. Who amongst the reader is willing to live in political and ideological slavery? Who is willing to give up his home for a Russian, an African, an American, or a Chinese? Who is willing to accept what courses are enforced on you in your school? And finally; who is willing to live under the Civil Detention Law; that Hitler used to massacre Jews; and, ironically, Jews are using the same law to massacre, deport, jail, and displace more than 5 million Palestinians? If you are willing; I, and many others are not. And this is just a tiny part of the ethics behind being enslaved to aliens.
I have seen some great feelings of hostility on this forum and hope that mankind as a whole will belessed in the sense of getting along without force, killings,fights, and all the moden ways of pain!
I would like to end this article to say a little about myself. I am a muslim by the name of Mohamed I love Islam which is not only my religion but also my way of life , as i have grown to know it as the the right path and the most mercifull religion. I also beleive that ther will be final day when every human according to their deeds will be rewarded accordingly!
MAY ALLAH BLESS US ALL AND HELP US TO LIVE TOGETHER IN GREAT PEACE,LOVE, AND HARMONY!
| nik wrote: |
arabian (most of them ) like animals they act like idiots their laws is hmmm i've seen better...
i was in hotel and so was arabian family at first they get in the pool with everything on (sure whay to clean after if you can get the clothes clean in the pool) also they used to drink at the pool and they must think that it's fun to throw the glass inside the water. and when i was gowing to my room one of their kids wanted to.... well let's just say thet he wasent' able to open the door so he did it on it....YACK... and much more...
next time i go to vacation i ask if there was any arabian lately... |
Excuse me nick, when you say Arabian do you mean the Muslim Arabians or the Chrisitian, Jewisish, and buddist Arabian too!!!! Just as some Americans are Muslims, some are Chrisitian and some even Jewish, the same applies to Arabs. Now for one i am not an Arab, i was born in Canada and raised there but my parents are from Bosnia!!! Now i have and have met many Arab people, even have friends who are Arab. But those that you speak of are not and i mean this, are not pure Muslims. They might say they are, and they are but only by name not FAITH!!!!
When i say the last statment, '...only by name and not FAITH'. I stand by that this whole thread is revolving around this main idea/theme!!! Muslim's will never wage war against a neighbouring country unless we had a good reason. Now tell me something about this whole war in IRAQ, just because we fight back people are starting to talk bad things about us and condenming us!!! What about the time Canada fought back against the Americans in the revolutionary war, or when all those civil wars erupted in different countries happened!!! I don't see anyone getting fed up with them or talking bad, we Muslim's are basically protecting oursleves. If half of you people knew what my Muslim brothers are facing in IRAQ right now you would be disgusted!!!
So i ask again, why do you only talk about us Muslim's and about our religion. What about America???The real question is whether any of the existing religions should have a place in the modern world. Religions are dividing people and will do so as long as their follows insist that theirs is the one and only true religion. Tolerance is not the issue, intolerance of superstition is not bigotry.
One more thought why do the Arab Muslims always pick on the US why don't they attack their real enemy the Turks | wolfhnd wrote: |
The real question is whether any of the existing religions should have a place in the modern world.
Religions are dividing people and will do so as long as their follows insist that theirs is the one and only true religion.
Tolerance is not the issue, intolerance of superstition is not bigotry. |
I'm afraid you are incorrect on that last, at least:
| dictionary.com wrote: |
big·ot·ry
n.
The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.
|
So, as you can see, intolerance of superstition is still, very much, bigotry.
As to the first, the question is not so much should they but do they and will they continue to?
The answer to the both of those is yes. As much as we both wish it were not so religion is a very big part of the modern world. Though that could change it will not change through the very intolerance and divisiveness that you call both the problem and the solution.
And finally, as for the second: though religions do indeed divide people they also unite them, and (as much as I hate it) strengthen them (artificially, but still). Though there are certainly better things to rally around (like the fact that we're all human) there are certainly worse things as well. | wolfhnd wrote: |
| One more thought why do the Arab Muslims always pick on the US why don't they attack their real enemy the Turks |
First, this discussion isn't on Arab muslims, it's on all of them, thus the "islam is" (though admittedly things have changed a good bit since then). But, to actually answer your point, the Arab muslims don't attack the Turks because the Turks are not invading their land. Nor were the Turks the ones who in the 1950s overthrew the democratically elected government in Iran and installed an oppressive Shah, that was America. Nor are they the ones who are "infidels" or "the great satan" to the extremists. | wolfhnd wrote: |
| One more thought why do the Arab Muslims always pick on the US why don't they attack their real enemy the Turks |
Oh i don't know, who in the past few years has been destroying our lands, our people, their dignity??? Who teamed up with Britain and gave up one of our countries to the Jews??? Who bombed a baby-formula making factory all the way in Africa-Somalia because they thought it held nuclear bombs, and then in the end they said a big SORRY, without even helping the people out!!! You tell me why!!!Valley man thank you for clearing out the issue with the Turks. But if i may the other reason is because they are the Muslim brothers of the Arabs, we don't kill each other.
Since the topic of this debate is " Islam is..." and not " Christianity and Islam: A Comparitive Study " I'd like to remind you that I'm not Islam-baiting.I am, what both Islam and Christianity would classify as one or more of the following "heretic","heathen","unbeliever" or "kafir". As such I hope you can understand that I am unbiased ( or equally biased? ) towards both.
A welcoming hell awaits me from both cults.
But since the topic under discussion is " Islam is..." I'll focus on the Qu'ran and its people...all those who are offended by what proceeds:I offer no apologies, if the truth be vitriolic, then so be it.
Before I begin, let me react to some previous posts...
| Quote: |
| No Coercion In Islam...Justice & Fairness to Non-Muslims...The Ultimate Justice... |
Posted:Islamic Thinker
Let me clear all notions of Islam as a peaceful religion.As much as I would like to believe that it is, it is not.Barring a few hazy lines refering to peace ( to all etc ) spread across the Qu'ran which may be interpreted in multiple ways ( thus allowing them to be stretched to accomodate and justify violence )...
[these are all summaries of the verses, please feel free to look up the quoted verse numbers in full...]
| Quote: |
We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 3:151
Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74
Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76
Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89
How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. 7:4-5
Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5
Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6
|
There are about somewhere between 331 to 403 instances of violence and intolerance such as those stated above spread across the Qu'ran.I would like to add that, on reading the Qu'ran myself I was surprised to find that the majority of its written verse was spent on explaining the consequences of not believing or having faith rather than explaining the intricacies, the culture or philosophy of the religion.
Also I'd appreciate it if those of you who are about to argue that the above quoted text from the Qu'ran has been wrongly interpreted/translated, I assure you that it is all translated quite literally and that 403 verses cannot, by even the most evil conspiracy hatched, be wrongly interpreted or bent and corrupted.So cease and desist from that argument and do us all a favor.
Also another minor correction:
| Quote: |
| Another prominent example that I keep referring to concerning the just treatment of Islam to non-Muslims; is the fact that while a husband is allowed to ask his Muslim wife not to go to the Mosque; he has no right to ask his wife to go to Church or Synagogue if it happens that the wife is a Christian or a Jew. |
Orig. Posted:IslamicThinker
It is strictly stated in the Qu'ran that you're wife cannot be a heretic, ("kafir") id est, non-muslim.The example itself is non-valid.Please get your facts right.However she may be your captive and you may fornicate with your slave-girls.
____________________
Nik wrote:
| Quote: |
arabian (most of them ) like animals they act like idiots their laws is hmmm i've seen better...
i was in hotel and so was arabian family at first they get in the pool with everything on (sure whay to clean after if you can get the clothes clean in the pool) also they used to drink at the pool and they must think that it's fun to throw the glass inside the water. and when i was gowing to my room one of their kids wanted to.... well let's just say thet he wasent' able to open the door so he did it on it....YACK... and much more...
next time i go to vacation i ask if there was any arabian lately... |
I find a nation or a culture that throws there glasses and lets there kids pee on doors far more preferable to a nation where sex, seduction and paedophilia are industries ( the pornography industry in the United States alone earns revenues of over $10 billion ).Where mass media is not a source of enlightenment, but a refined art of deceit and manipulation that will buy your soul for money (a $1 trillion advertising and marketing industry, where the 5 major music channels, over 40% of radio channels are owned by a single company and over 90% of media controlled by just 5 super-giants spells one thing -brainwash).
In short I'd rather have my son peeing on doors than surfing porn and being a rascist pig doing government encouraged cocaine and my daughter buying sillicon.
my point being: if you're arguing, atleast make a point, for every kid a arab has that pees on a door I could put up six paedophiles as a counter arguement, and vice versa too.Flaming with pathetic posts is well...pathetic.
________________________
Getting back to the topic...
Is Islam a religion of peace?
I would have preferred to keep the answer limited to the confines of the Qu'ran but find myself unable to and knowing that answer I must also state that none of the Abrahamic religions are peaceful.
[Abrahamic is categoral term here, for the complete list of Abrahamic Religions...Google it ]
A few excerpts from the bible:[these are all summaries of the verses, please feel free to look up the quoted verse numbers in full...]
| Quote: |
God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." 11:7
"He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed." ( If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed.) 22:20
Do not allow others to worship a different god. Conquer them and destroy their religious property. 23:24
God promises to "send his fear before the Israelites" and to kill everyone that they encounter when they enter the promised land. 23:27
Stay away from those who worship a different god. 23:32
|
_____________________________________________
For every conquest there will be a crusade, as you turn the pages of history you will realise they're all horrifyingly similar, the brown of the pages you see is not that of age but of dried blood.And you people of cult and sect continue to be the authors of the history of mankind is what deeply saddens me...you write in blood, the ink of the hysteria.
Men of faith, it seems are similar to a pack of wolves, bickering and quarelling amongst each other when all is at peace outside, but united as a pack [as cult], strong, sneering, capable, they stand up as one when they find an enemy...prey...a kill.
You ask how?
When all men ( or seemingly all) walked the path of Christianity peace should have been kept, but no it was not so.The Spanish, the Portugese,The English were all divided.The gruesome killings of these times are famous in history.
And then came the Muslim empire and you were divided no more.A common enemy, and you were united in you snarls and in your fight.A true pack.May the hunt begin.
And the same for Islam.That Islam is undivided is a misconception.Genocide within the religion is a well recorded fact (across Iran,Iraq, Afghanistan).One of the reasons for its initial success as a religion itself was that its members could unite against a common enemy ( refer: The Battles of Mecca,The Slaying of Jewish Caravans ).
And then you must conclude that anyone persecuted at some time will not bow down, but find greater strength, even if the purpose or philosophy that drives him be fundamentally wrong.Humans are attracted by that which is forbidden: Jesus was persecuted by the Romans, The Prophet by the Meccans.Even if their teachings were flawed, people flocked to join the ranks of that which was forbidden by the state.A trend that continues till today.
Albert Einstein said:“God does not play dice with the universe.”
How true...its the men who play dice with the Universe.
I hope you find yourselves at your Sunday and Friday prayers. my dear respected friend, I_am_Mine*, i have read your post and am planning to respond to some of the things you have said when i reach my home and have the 'Holy Qur'an' in my hands.
I am currently at school, so i have no access to one right now. So please be patient!!!!
| i_am_mine wrote: |
[these are all summaries of the verses, please feel free to look up the quoted verse numbers in full...]
Quote:
We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 3:151
Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74
Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76
Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89
How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. 7:4-5
Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5
Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6
|
Well as i had promised i am back and have read all those verses that you cited. But i would like to know my friend, from which exact source did you find these verses cited!!!
Because i have already found one error in the first verse, for some strange and apparent reason there was this whole sentence just missing which actually was the explanation to why the disbelievers will go to hell - and may i also add it answers your concern about you going to hell if you join the religion of Islam.
| i_am_mine wrote: |
Quote:
We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 3:151 |
| The Holy Qur'an wrote: |
We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allah(God), fo which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the fire, and how evil is the abode of the wrongdoers 3:151 |
As you can see, there is a reason for why Allah will send the disbeliever to hell, not just because He wants to - there are always reasons. NEXT...
| i_am_mine wrote: |
Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74
Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76 |
| The Holy Qur'an wrote: |
There is certainly among you he who would linger behind from fighting. If a misfortune befalls you, he says, "Indeed Allah has favoured me in that i was not present among them"
But if a bounty(victory and booty) comes to you from Allah, he would surely say - as if there had never been ties of affection between you and him - "Oh! I wish i had been with them; then i would have achieved a great success(a good share of booty)."
Let those(believers) who sell the life of this world for teh Hereafter fight in the Cause of Allah, and whoso fights in the Cause of Allah, and is killed or gets victory, We shall bestow on him great reward.
And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, ill-treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help."
Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut(Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan. Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Satan 4:72 - 76 |
I have quoted the verses that come before and after the ones you my friend quoted. And as we see again, there is a good reason for why Allah(God) has sent down these verses. To tell us that there were and still are people living among us who are hypocrites or two-faces as is teh common name for these people. In teh past they used to say that they believed but, then when it came to something like fighting they would back away.
So Allah told those who were fighting that they will recieve a very good reward for all those hardships they had to go through, even thought they were small in teh beginning. but if we read a bit more we see why Allah has commanded Muslims to fight, not because our enemy are soldiers of Satan, but because of what they used to do to the villages and towns that had no army. They would go in, kill everyone and rape the women and steal everything, so Allah has commanded us to go and help them, to protect them from the evil oppressors, who are guided by Satan's whispers.
| i_am_mine wrote: |
Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89 |
| The Holy Qur'an wrote: |
They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected Faith, and thus that you all become equal. So take not Auliya(protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah. But if they turn back, take them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither auliya(protectors or friends) nor helpers from them 4:89 |
Once again my friend, i am befuddeled to see that you missed out the main part of that verse. I suggest next time to check over everything before posting, and if anyone see's a mistake in mine please tell me so that i may fix it - Thank You!!!
This verse is self explanatory, here Allah is telling us not to make friends with the unbelievers, yes and no. He said a certain type of unbelievers, thos which want me to give up my religion. And i would like to add that we as Muslims can have friends and co-workers with unbelievers, but up to a certain point. Now Allah tells us that we shoudl not make friends with the people who want us to change until they become Muslim, but if they turn away then we must kill them.
Let me add though, one more ayah which comes right underneath that one that i fixed up for you.
| The Holy Qur'an wrote: |
Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty(of peace), or those who approach you and wish their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them. |
So as wee see, only thos who fight against Muslims are we allowed to kill them. But if someone comes to use form another religion and he says peace, we retreat and make peace as well.
Now as you might have seen, i have so far finished most verses for you, and have told you there true meaning and why Allah(God) sent them down to us. But may i, before i end this first part fix up one of your verses that you quoted.
| i_am_mine wrote: |
Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6 |
The true verse says this:
| The Holy Qur'an wrote: |
And if anyone of the Mushrikun(disbelievers) seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not. 9:6 |
I end my first part now.
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Secondly, i would like to fix you one of your ideas that the Qur'an has about 331 - 403 verses just talking about the violence and intolerance.
The Qur'an is divided into many main parts or as you would say themes. Some talk about the oneness or truth about Allah(God), some talk about the Qur'an itself, while one portion talks about Islam and how we shoud live it, so in my knowledge and sense it would be impossible to see that many verses about just one topic such as war - It is false to my knowledge!!!
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Third thing:
| i_am_mine wrote: |
Quote:
Another prominent example that I keep referring to concerning the just treatment of Islam to non-Muslims; is the fact that while a husband is allowed to ask his Muslim wife not to go to the Mosque; he has no right to ask his wife to go to Church or Synagogue if it happens that the wife is a Christian or a Jew.
Orig. Posted:IslamicThinker
It is strictly stated in the Qu'ran that you're wife cannot be a heretic, ("kafir") id est, non-muslim.The example itself is non-valid.Please get your facts right.However she may be your captive and you may fornicate with your slave-girls. |
Once again, i am sorry to say to you that you are totally wrong. We are not forbidden to marry non-Muslim women or non-Muslim men. Actually, here is the verse and i will exapnd a bit on it!!!
| The Holy Qur'an wrote: |
And do not marry Al-Mushrikat(idolatresses) till they believe(worship Allah alone). And indeed a slave women who believes is better than a (free) idolatress, even though she pleases you. And give not(your daughters) in marriage to idolaters till they believe in Allah alone and verily, a believeing slave is better than a free idolater, even though he pleases you. Those idolaters invite you to the Hell Fire, but Allahinvites you to Paradise and Forgiveness by His leave, and makes his proofs clear to mankind that they may remember. |
So as you can see, we are allowed to marry thos who believe in Allah, and in that time when the Prophet Muhammad(SAW) was alive, there were some women and men who were Christian and believed in Allah, and some Jews who believed in Allah - those we were and are allowed to marry if they believe in Allah but sadly there are non like that anymore. Who we are not allowed to believe in are thos people who believe in idols, or are athiest!!!
Sadly i cannot confirm if those verses you took from "The Bible" are true or not. So if there is any Chrisitan who can confirm please go right ahead, thank you!!!I am very sorry that i didn't post this before in my earlier post, very sorry!!! But what i wanted to tell everyone is that it's not verry appropriate or nice to take something out of context. For example, if you took out a moral that was part of the story, it would be easier to understand if you had the whoe story that went with the context.
So please, when ever youa re quoting, please write the whole quote rather than just a part of it!!!
Bigot:a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
Now who does that remind you of?
Bigotry is understood to mean prejudice although in the diffinition you offered intolorance is substituted for prejudice.
Prejudice=an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge.
wolfhnd, are you speaking to me or 'I_am_mine'??? I am guessing him because i saw you guys were talking about it earlier, you're pretty dedicated to making something right, lol. I like that!!!
| gonzo wrote: |
.. well you decide
...
ikes!!!
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To bring it back to the original point, islam is not sharia law. Christianity is not the bible (edited by the vatican). You conflate two issues, simplifying a discussion that is already sufficiently befuddled.
The punishment is most certainly gruesome, inhumane. I would certainly not wish to be a citizen of Iran. That being said, to lump all islam in is an unintelligent way to move forward. I can still see the headlines with GW on the photo and "crusade" spelled above it - his word. Fundamental anything is a danger to a society that tries to create an environment where people can be as free as possible, provided they allow others the same priviledge. In other words, a libertarian society of sorts; a founding, and perhaps lost, principle of the united states.
I believe both religions promote to "do onto others as you would have them onto you". Seems like a decent idea, and not entirely unlibertarian.
I like the idea that people could be decent for no better reason than that it is the right thing to do. My favourite piece of humanism: http://www.vonnegutweb.com/archives/arc_humanist.html.Just to clear up the history a lot of Arabs were killed by and they killed a lot of their Turk brothers. If you want a detailed account from Muslim sources it should not be hard to come up with.
The point is that it should come as no surprise to anyone that the Mideast is in constant state of political chaos and warfare. It's been going on for what 6000 years?
The Muslims just happen to be the latest owners of that piece of real estate. Any claim they may make to being particularly victimized is not legitimate. It seems to me that it is just the latest chapter and in the previous chapter they were doing the victimizing. That is what is wrong with religion you can always claim you did you victimizing in the name of god. Some how this is supposed to make the victim feel better?
6000 years, ok man that recently happened, and when i mean recently i mean like in out time not the ancients. Islam only started about 1428 years ago so its impossible for that long!!!
As for the killing, yes we all know that it happened, except those people who called themselves Muslim were not. As i have said before they are Muslim by name but not by Faith, there is an extreme difference between those two characteristics and now adays most religions are populated by followers who are only by name, even Islam.
It's not that im against my Religion or anything, but i am sure that budhists, Jews, Christians and even Muslims have the same exact problem!!! But what can be done, nothing as i see it. I mean whenever someone who is truly religious comes from his Religion to try and preach it and teach it, you've got the governement shutting him up and throwing him in jail for life or just killing him. It' s obvious not only in teh Arab countries but America as well!!!
To clear up any doubts of "out of context " I post the verses in full below, however unfortunately I am required to be somewhere this morning so I cannot post all 400 odd verses and will try with as many as I can...Thank you.
| Quote: |
3:118 O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.
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| Quote: |
| 2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not. |
This one is for IslamicThinker, to clear up any doubts of intermarriage:
| Quote: |
| 2:221 Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember. |
| Quote: |
4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise. |
And to contradict your verses of peace...
| Quote: |
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them, |
I will attempt to post all 400 verses when I return and I'd appreciate it if you didn't argue along the terms of " out of context ", we'd all like to believe our religion is peaceful, but we forget that it is only a byproduct of man himself.
The verses quoted above are in full.
Also I noticed that the verses you quoted ( in full ) meant exactly the same thing as the shortened versions I posted. Your post only made my points clearer.Thank you. It is very sad that you my friend had to recopy those exact verses which i had written down. But when you say that i should not talk about "out of context" there you are wrong.
If you will be quoting verses from the holy Qur'an, or any holy scripture then it is wise that you also quote the verses before and after.
[code="i_am_mine"]
Quote:
3:118 O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand. [/code]
One error, from the meaning you cited above, it is not out of context. The 8th word form teh beginning says 'intimates'!!! In reality that is not the correct word, you either have an incorrect interpretation by mistake or on purpose. The word used here is actually "Bitanah" which basically means advisors or consultants, or helpers and so on. So i seriously don't see whats wrong here, and i will give you an example why!
Let's say you work for a compnay and you got a project to do, now would you go to your colleagues who you are working with or to the other people who work in teh company that is rival with yours. If you go with them, then they will try their best to make you screw up on teh project, costing you company billions or more.
Now here Allah is telling us the same thing, don't take advisors, helpers from the other side - the side that hates you or is your rival because they will want to ruin you and your people and the society at large!!!
| i_am_mine wrote: |
Quote:
2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not. |
Here we see that Allah is telling us that although we might hate fighting, it is the last thing left for us since the enemy doesn't want to talk and wants to fight. If you look into the past, and search about the history of Islam you might and will find that Islam was firstly preached out o the people of Mecca. but then those people hated the word so they kicked the Muslims out and then after the Muslims had left to go to another city the disbelievers followed them to teh otehr city to fight!!!! So the only last resort is to fight, because they would have been killed if they didn't right???
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As for the verse(ayah) which you stated towards islamic thinker i would like to answer to that because i already stated it before and the reason:
| i_am_mine wrote: |
Quote:
2:221 Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember. |
What i said:
| GDG wrote: |
The Holy Qur'an wrote:
And do not marry Al-Mushrikat(idolatresses) till they believe(worship Allah alone). And indeed a slave women who believes is better than a (free) idolatress, even though she pleases you. And give not(your daughters) in marriage to idolaters till they believe in Allah alone and verily, a believeing slave is better than a free idolater, even though he pleases you. Those idolaters invite you to the Hell Fire, but Allahinvites you to Paradise and Forgiveness by His leave, and makes his proofs clear to mankind that they may remember.
So as you can see, we are allowed to marry thos who believe in Allah, and in that time when the Prophet Muhammad(SAW) was alive, there were some women and men who were Christian and believed in Allah, and some Jews who believed in Allah - those we were and are allowed to marry if they believe in Allah but sadly there are non like that anymore. Who we are not allowed to believe in are thos people who believe in idols, or are athiest!!! |
| i_am_mine wrote: |
Quote:
4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.
|
Once again this deals with idolaters, or the people who believe in idols!!! As i said above, in the Prophet Muhammad's(SAW) time there were some people who were pure Chrisitan and Jewish!!! Meaning that they believed in the true God and did not have destroyed copies of their scriptures. But there were some who worshipped idols, or didn't believe in anything like athiests, so Allah says to them you will go to hell for not believing.
But what i find this thread lacking is happy verses, so i shall quote the verse after the one above that you cited my dear friend i_am_mine.
| The Holy Qur'an wrote: |
But those who believe and do deeds(good things) of righteousness, We shall admit them to Gardens undr which rivers flow, abiding therein forever. Therein they shall have purified mates, and We shall admit them to shades wide and ever deepening. |
Once again, please read my posts and that of Islamic Thinker before you post an ayat(verse), and if you will please tell me where you are getting all these verses? Because if they are from the internet, then they are either false or have been interpreted wrongly. As for this verse, once again read other people's posts please, i am sure that you saw that i had already posted this one and gave an explanation, so basically you are reposting.
| i_am_mine wrote: |
And to contradict your verses of peace...
Quote:
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
|
What i had posted:
| GDG wrote: |
The Holy Qur'an wrote:
They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected Faith, and thus that you all become equal. So take not Auliya(protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah. But if they turn back, take them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither auliya(protectors or friends) nor helpers from them 4:89
Once again my friend, i am befuddeled to see that you missed out the main part of that verse. I suggest next time to check over everything before posting, and if anyone see's a mistake in mine please tell me so that i may fix it - Thank You!!!
This verse is self explanatory, here Allah is telling us not to make friends with the unbelievers, yes and no. He said a certain type of unbelievers, thos which want me to give up my religion. And i would like to add that we as Muslims can have friends and co-workers with unbelievers, but up to a certain point. Now Allah tells us that we shoudl not make friends with the people who want us to change until they become Muslim, but if they turn away then we must kill them.
Let me add though, one more ayah which comes right underneath that one that i fixed up for you.
The Holy Qur'an wrote:
Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty(of peace), or those who approach you and wish their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them.
So as wee see, only thos who fight against Muslims are we allowed to kill them. But if someone comes to use form another religion and he says peace, we retreat and make peace as well. |
My apologies, Islamic Thinker if you wished to reply to those verses. Please go right ahead and add your ideas I was just showing my earlier posts. As for your last sentence where you said that i posted the verses in full and that cleared the point you were making. And your Welcome if i did do that, but i believe i didn't and will show you why.
What you wrote were shortened versions of the verses, and not only that but you didn't shorten evrything you just chose that part which spoke about evil things, yet the verses in full speak yes of killing but they say wh