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Pilgrims Progress





nickfyoung
Published in 1678, the John Bunyan Christian allegory is regarded as one of the most significant works of English religious literature.

It has been translated into 200 languages and has never been out of print.

Have you read this mammoth work, 108,260 words, and if so what do you reckon.

I have only seen the movie version but from that I thought it quite brilliant, portraying the Christian walk both before and after conversion.

There is a credible run down of the story here at Wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pilgrim%27s_Progress

What do you think.
Dialogist
nickfyoung wrote:
portraying the Christian walk


Quote:

On the way, Christian and Hopeful meet a lad named Ignorance, who believes that he will be allowed into the Celestial City through his own good deeds rather than as a gift of God's grace. Christian and Hopeful meet up with him twice and try to persuade him to journey to the Celestial City in the right way. Ignorance persists in his own way that leads to his being cast into hell.


Me^

Quote:

Now I saw in my Dream, that at the end of this Valley lay blood, bones, ashes, and mangled bodies of men, even of Pilgrims that had gone this way formerly: And while I was musing what should be the reason, I espied a little before me a Cave, where two Giants, Pope and Pagan, dwelt in old times, by whose Power and Tyranny the Men whose bones, blood ashes, &c. lay there, were cruelly put to death. But by this place Christian went without much danger, whereat I somewhat wondered; but I have learnt since, that Pagan has been dead many a day; and as for the other, though he be yet alive, he is by reason of age, and also of the many shrewd brushes that he met with in his younger dayes, grown so crazy and stiff in his joynts, that he can now do little more than sit in his Caves mouth, grinning at Pilgrims as they go by, and biting his nails, because he cannot come at them.


^My Church and other witches.

This truly is like a Christ-like representative of Christianity. One struggles to believe Bunyan wrote it from a Quaker jail. Haha. The Quakers put him in jail. Again.. The Quakers put him in jail. Speechless...

In a purely literary sense, it reads like Enid Blyton's answer to Dante's Inferno. You know, without the timeless poetry, allegorical relevance, theology, love, devotion, vocation, passion, moral/moral etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pilgrim%27s_Progress_first_edition_1678.jpg

And I'm also mystified as to how they managed to make a ^typo with a printing press. But I guess it was too late by then.
Dialogist
There's one or two positive characters, to be fair, but they are lost within the atypical incessant whining of protestantism. As per usual. When I mentioned Dante's Divine Comedy it's because that is a serious piece of literature and theology (it's almost biblical, and revered by some as almost that). It doesn't name drop, troll or build a "shitlist" (as protestantism constantly does, and only ever does). It's not a "diss track" calling out opposition to a position which only seemingly exists to be in opposition to others. I mean, seriously, reading through this laundry list, it's quite breathtaking...

wrote:

Pliable, the other of the two, who goes with Christian until both of them fall into the Slough of Despond. Pliable escapes from the slough and returns home.
Help, Christian's rescuer from the Slough of Despond.
MR. WORLDLY WISEMAN, a resident of a place called Carnal Policy, who persuades Christian go out of his way to be helped by a Mr. Legality and then move to the City of Morality.
Beelzebub, literally "Lord of the Flies", is one of the devil's companion archdevils, who has erected a fort near the Wicket Gate from which he and his companions can shoot arrows at those about to enter the Wicket Gate. He is also the Lord of Vanity Fair. Christian calls him "captain" of the fiend ls.
Formalist, one of two travellers on the King's Highway, who do not come in by the Wicket Gate, but climb over the wall that encloses it, at least from the hill and sepulcre up to the Hill Difficulty. He and his companion Hypocrisy come from the land of Vainglory. He takes one of the two bypaths that avoid the Hill Difficulty, but is lost.
Hypocrisy, the companion of Formalist. He takes the other of the two bypaths and is also lost.
Timorous, one of two who try to persuade Christian to go back for fear of the chained lions near the House Beautiful. He is a relative of Mrs. Timorous of the Second Part. His companion is Mistrust.
APOLLYON, literally "Destroyer"; the lord of the City of Destruction and one of the devil's companion archdevils, who tries to force Christian to return to his domain and service. His battle with Christian takes place in the Valley of Humiliation, just below the House Beautiful. He appears as a dragon-like creature with scales and bats' wings. He takes darts from his body to throw at his opponents.
Giants "Pope" and "Pagan", allegories of Roman Catholicism and paganism as persecutors of Protestant Christians. "Pagan" is dead, indicating the end of pagan persecution with Antiquity, and "Pope" is alive but decrepit, indicating the then diminished power and influence of the Roman Catholic pope.
Wanton, a temptress who tries to get Faithful to leave his journey to the Celestial City. She may be the popular resident of the City of Destruction, Madam Wanton, who hosted a house party for friends of Mrs. Timorous.
Adam the First, "the old man" (representing carnality) who tries to persuade Faithful to leave his journey and come live with his 3 daughters: the Lust of the flesh, the Lust of the eyes, and the Pride of life.
Moses, the severe, violent avenger (representing the Law, which knows no mercy) who tries to kill Faithful for his momentary weakness in wanting to go with Adam the First out of the way.
Talkative, a hypocrite known to Christian from the City of Destruction, who lived on Prating Row. He talks fervently of religion, but has no evident works as a result of true salvation.
Lord Hate-good, the judge who tries Faithful in Vanity Fair.
Envy, the first witness against Faithful.
Superstition, the second witness against Faithful.
Pick-Thank, the third witness against Faithful.
HOPEFUL, the resident of Vanity Fair, who takes Faithful's place as Christian's fellow traveler. The character HOPEFUL poses an inconsistency in that there is a necessity imposed on the pilgrims that they enter the "King's Highway" by the Wicket Gate. HOPEFUL did not; however, of him we read: "... one died to bear testimony to the truth, and another rises out of his ashes to be a companion with Christian in his pilgrimage". HOPEFUL assumes FAITHFUL'S place by God's design. Theologically and allegorically it would follow in that "faith" is trust in God as far as things present are concerned, and "hope", biblically the same as "faith", is trust in God as far as things of the future are concerned. HOPEFUL would follow FAITHFUL. The other factor is Vanity Fair's location right on the straight and narrow way. IGNORANCE, in contrast to HOPEFUL, came from the Country of Conceit, that connected to the "King's Highway" by means of a crooked lane. IGNORANCE was told by CHRISTIAN and HOPEFUL that he should have entered the highway through the Wicket Gate.
Mr. By-Ends, a hypocritical pilgrim who perishes in the Hill Lucre silver mine with three of his friends. A "by-end" is a pursuit that is achieved indirectly. In the case of By-Ends and his companions, it is pursuing financial gain through religion.
Demas, a deceiver, who beckons to pilgrims at the Hill Lucre to come and join in the supposed silver mining going on in it.
GIANT DESPAIR, the owner of Doubting Castle, where Christians are imprisoned and murdered. He is slain by GREAT-HEART in the Second Part.
Giantess Diffidence, Despair's wife. She is slain by OLD HONEST in the Second Part.
IGNORANCE, "a brisk young lad", who joins the "King's Highway" by way of the "crooked lane" that comes from his native country, called "Conceit." He follows Christian and Hopeful and on two occasions talks with them. He believes that he will be received into the Celestial City because of his doing good works in accordance with God's will. Jesus Christ is for him only an example not a Savior. Christian and Hopeful try to set him right, but they fail. He gets a ferryman, Vain-Hope, to ferry him across the River of Death rather than cross it on foot as one is supposed to do. When he gets to the gates of the Celestial City, he is asked for a "certificate" needed for entry, which he does not have. The King, then, orders that he be bound and cast into hell.
The Flatterer, a deceiver who leads Christian and Hopeful out of their way, when they fail to look at the road map given them by the Shepherds of the Delectable Mountains.
Atheist, a mocker of CHRISTIAN and HOPEFUL, who goes the opposite way on the "King's Highway" because he boasts that he knows that God and the Celestial City do not exist.


And it's not that Catholicism is particularly offended or threatened by reformists in modern times, it's that, as a Christian one wonders if the protestants ever find any time for Christianity through all these veiled threats, passive aggressive (dis)position and hate speech. It seems like a rather redundant vocation.

Theologically, even, it has no credibility. And it doesn't warrant the moral indignation it espouses. It rambles on about having the true theology and deceivers who don't. It pretends to be congeal to Jesus Christ and it contradicts almost every single thing he ever said, or twists it, to make it fit. Other times...

wrote:

Moses, the severe, violent avenger (representing the Law, which knows no mercy) who tries to kill Faithful for his momentary weakness in wanting to go with Adam the First out of the way.


It's just incredibly stupid, naive and ignorant.

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me." - John 5:46
"But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" - John 5:47

Jesus said that you're not a Christian, Nickfyoung (also kinda said, "I'm God" again too, but that's another topic). So if you crap on Moses, you crap on Jesus himself, but don't shoot the messenger (like Protestantism has any other purpose). I'm just telling you what the Bible says. It's roughly the same one you have. Take a gander through it, see if your Woman's Weekly version does say pretty much exactly the same thing in John 5:46-47.
nickfyoung
Dialogist wrote:
There's one or two positive characters, to be fair, but they are lost within the atypical incessant whining of protestantism. As per usual. When I mentioned Dante's Divine Comedy it's because that is a serious piece of literature and theology (it's almost biblical, and revered by some as almost that). It doesn't name drop, troll or build a "shitlist" (as protestantism constantly does, and only ever does). It's not a "diss track" calling out opposition to a position which only seemingly exists to be in opposition to others. I mean, seriously, reading through this laundry list, it's quite breathtaking...

wrote:

Pliable, the other of the two, who goes with Christian until both of them fall into the Slough of Despond. Pliable escapes from the slough and returns home.
Help, Christian's rescuer from the Slough of Despond.
MR. WORLDLY WISEMAN, a resident of a place called Carnal Policy, who persuades Christian go out of his way to be helped by a Mr. Legality and then move to the City of Morality.
Beelzebub, literally "Lord of the Flies", is one of the devil's companion archdevils, who has erected a fort near the Wicket Gate from which he and his companions can shoot arrows at those about to enter the Wicket Gate. He is also the Lord of Vanity Fair. Christian calls him "captain" of the fiend ls.
Formalist, one of two travellers on the King's Highway, who do not come in by the Wicket Gate, but climb over the wall that encloses it, at least from the hill and sepulcre up to the Hill Difficulty. He and his companion Hypocrisy come from the land of Vainglory. He takes one of the two bypaths that avoid the Hill Difficulty, but is lost.
Hypocrisy, the companion of Formalist. He takes the other of the two bypaths and is also lost.
Timorous, one of two who try to persuade Christian to go back for fear of the chained lions near the House Beautiful. He is a relative of Mrs. Timorous of the Second Part. His companion is Mistrust.
APOLLYON, literally "Destroyer"; the lord of the City of Destruction and one of the devil's companion archdevils, who tries to force Christian to return to his domain and service. His battle with Christian takes place in the Valley of Humiliation, just below the House Beautiful. He appears as a dragon-like creature with scales and bats' wings. He takes darts from his body to throw at his opponents.
Giants "Pope" and "Pagan", allegories of Roman Catholicism and paganism as persecutors of Protestant Christians. "Pagan" is dead, indicating the end of pagan persecution with Antiquity, and "Pope" is alive but decrepit, indicating the then diminished power and influence of the Roman Catholic pope.
Wanton, a temptress who tries to get Faithful to leave his journey to the Celestial City. She may be the popular resident of the City of Destruction, Madam Wanton, who hosted a house party for friends of Mrs. Timorous.
Adam the First, "the old man" (representing carnality) who tries to persuade Faithful to leave his journey and come live with his 3 daughters: the Lust of the flesh, the Lust of the eyes, and the Pride of life.
Moses, the severe, violent avenger (representing the Law, which knows no mercy) who tries to kill Faithful for his momentary weakness in wanting to go with Adam the First out of the way.
Talkative, a hypocrite known to Christian from the City of Destruction, who lived on Prating Row. He talks fervently of religion, but has no evident works as a result of true salvation.
Lord Hate-good, the judge who tries Faithful in Vanity Fair.
Envy, the first witness against Faithful.
Superstition, the second witness against Faithful.
Pick-Thank, the third witness against Faithful.
HOPEFUL, the resident of Vanity Fair, who takes Faithful's place as Christian's fellow traveler. The character HOPEFUL poses an inconsistency in that there is a necessity imposed on the pilgrims that they enter the "King's Highway" by the Wicket Gate. HOPEFUL did not; however, of him we read: "... one died to bear testimony to the truth, and another rises out of his ashes to be a companion with Christian in his pilgrimage". HOPEFUL assumes FAITHFUL'S place by God's design. Theologically and allegorically it would follow in that "faith" is trust in God as far as things present are concerned, and "hope", biblically the same as "faith", is trust in God as far as things of the future are concerned. HOPEFUL would follow FAITHFUL. The other factor is Vanity Fair's location right on the straight and narrow way. IGNORANCE, in contrast to HOPEFUL, came from the Country of Conceit, that connected to the "King's Highway" by means of a crooked lane. IGNORANCE was told by CHRISTIAN and HOPEFUL that he should have entered the highway through the Wicket Gate.
Mr. By-Ends, a hypocritical pilgrim who perishes in the Hill Lucre silver mine with three of his friends. A "by-end" is a pursuit that is achieved indirectly. In the case of By-Ends and his companions, it is pursuing financial gain through religion.
Demas, a deceiver, who beckons to pilgrims at the Hill Lucre to come and join in the supposed silver mining going on in it.
GIANT DESPAIR, the owner of Doubting Castle, where Christians are imprisoned and murdered. He is slain by GREAT-HEART in the Second Part.
Giantess Diffidence, Despair's wife. She is slain by OLD HONEST in the Second Part.
IGNORANCE, "a brisk young lad", who joins the "King's Highway" by way of the "crooked lane" that comes from his native country, called "Conceit." He follows Christian and Hopeful and on two occasions talks with them. He believes that he will be received into the Celestial City because of his doing good works in accordance with God's will. Jesus Christ is for him only an example not a Savior. Christian and Hopeful try to set him right, but they fail. He gets a ferryman, Vain-Hope, to ferry him across the River of Death rather than cross it on foot as one is supposed to do. When he gets to the gates of the Celestial City, he is asked for a "certificate" needed for entry, which he does not have. The King, then, orders that he be bound and cast into hell.
The Flatterer, a deceiver who leads Christian and Hopeful out of their way, when they fail to look at the road map given them by the Shepherds of the Delectable Mountains.
Atheist, a mocker of CHRISTIAN and HOPEFUL, who goes the opposite way on the "King's Highway" because he boasts that he knows that God and the Celestial City do not exist.


And it's not that Catholicism is particularly offended or threatened by reformists in modern times, it's that, as a Christian one wonders if the protestants ever find any time for Christianity through all these veiled threats, passive aggressive (dis)position and hate speech. It seems like a rather redundant vocation.

Theologically, even, it has no credibility. And it doesn't warrant the moral indignation it espouses. It rambles on about having the true theology and deceivers who don't. It pretends to be congeal to Jesus Christ and it contradicts almost every single thing he ever said, or twists it, to make it fit. Other times...

wrote:

Moses, the severe, violent avenger (representing the Law, which knows no mercy) who tries to kill Faithful for his momentary weakness in wanting to go with Adam the First out of the way.


It's just incredibly stupid, naive and ignorant.

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me." - John 5:46
"But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" - John 5:47

Jesus said that you're not a Christian, Nickfyoung (also kinda said, "I'm God" again too, but that's another topic). So if you crap on Moses, you crap on Jesus himself, but don't shoot the messenger (like Protestantism has any other purpose). I'm just telling you what the Bible says. It's roughly the same one you have. Take a gander through it, see if your Woman's Weekly version does say pretty much exactly the same thing in John 5:46-47.



Quote:
So if you crap on Moses, you crap on Jesus himself,



Not sure where you are at here. Are you saying that Protestants don't accept the writings of Moses.
SonLight
Dialogist wrote:


This truly is like a Christ-like representative of Christianity. One struggles to believe Bunyan wrote it from a Quaker jail. Haha. The Quakers put him in jail. Again.. The Quakers put him in jail. Speechless...



Apparently it was not the Quakers who put him in jail. It seems he violated the Conventicle Act, which forbade religious gatherings not organized by the church of England. Unlike the Quakers, the Anglicans had a strong conviction that they should control expressions of religion. Basically, he was guilty of preaching the Gospel.
Dialogist
SonLight wrote:
Dialogist wrote:


This truly is like a Christ-like representative of Christianity. One struggles to believe Bunyan wrote it from a Quaker jail. Haha. The Quakers put him in jail. Again.. The Quakers put him in jail. Speechless...



Apparently it was not the Quakers who put him in jail. It seems he violated the Conventicle Act, which forbade religious gatherings not organized by the church of England. Unlike the Quakers, the Anglicans had a strong conviction that they should control expressions of religion. Basically, he was guilty of preaching the Gospel.


Apologies, yeah I've made an error there. I presumed the Clarendon Code was a Quaker specific leniency as it was those who it mainly redeemed. It seems it was Church of England (Established Church) so it turns out that it was Bunyan's own people who put him in jail. Worse?

Apologies to the Quakers, anyway... I'll pin something on you oaties yet! Too nice. Too quiet. Don't trust you...

He was (in their eyes) guilty of a little more than that. He was guilty of preaching false gospel in a room of more than 5 unrelated people. He was guilty of hating Catholics (half of their faith) as his literature shows. The Anglicans have this brown-nose maxim of pretending they are catholic to the Catholics and protestant to the protestants. For example they buy Catholicism wholesale, Nicene, Apostles creed and then they slide Edward VI and XXXIX Articles in there. So he was guilty theologically (he went down on paper blaspheming and derailing Moses and thus the prophecy and embodiment of Jesus himself, so God knows what he was preaching) and in legal terms, he's guilty by state because it was a Penial law of the Established Church. If the reformist sympathizers threw him in jail for slating Catholicism, then his reformist propaganda can't have been so hot either. The Catholics on the other hand, too 'old', 'weak' and 'frail' to care. And still younger than you all. 337 years after Bunyan's prophecy.
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