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Higgs boson found?





_AVG_
[Moderator Note
I have moved this thread from the Science section because it is no longer suitable for that section.
Bikerman]


Hey guys
I recently read an article about a Higgs- like particle being found at CERN. If this is true, this is very exciting indeed, and should change the face of modern science Very Happy
It looks very good so far and the guys at CERN seem very confident they've found it, let's keep are fingers crossed lol
What is your opinion about this?

FYI - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-18702455
Bikerman
I'm still waiting to read some authoritative material on this - I've seen the press releases but i have learned never to trust press releases Smile
kelseymh
Bikerman wrote:
I'm still waiting to read some authoritative material on this - I've seen the press releases but i have learned never to trust press releases Smile


You should probably look at the major bloggers, then. Sean Carroll (the Caltech physicist, not the evo-devo guy) has a good blog, as does Tommaso Dorigo. A Google search for "Higgs blogs" will drum up more, and of course they all cross-link to each other Smile

Here's CMS's public announcement, which includes some additonal plots, along with a link to their actual talk (40 MB PDF).

ATLAS's public announcement is similar, but without a link to the CERN talk Sad[/url]
Bikerman
Ah...thanks for that....next on my list (currently installing ubuntu on my PC - finally got sick of windows Smile
SonLight
I'm glad to hear that there's something solid to the rumors that have been floating around about a breakthrough, According to the CMS announcement, it appears there is a very high probability of something beyond well-known processes, and the result is consistent with the possibility of being a Higgs Boson with a mass around 125 Gev.

They seem to be handling the issue with caution at this time. I was surprised to hear they are only talking about 7 or 8 Tev events, since I assumed they would be doing 14 Tev collisions routinely by now.
kelseymh
SonLight wrote:
I was surprised to hear they are only talking about 7 or 8 Tev events, since I assumed they would be doing 14 Tev collisions routinely by now.


Not at all. After the superconducting bus-bar failure, the accelerator has been limited to just 4 TeV per beam, maximum. They will have to shut down for two years to replace and rebuild all of the SC busses around the ring (that's two times 26 kilometers) in order to reach the 7 TeV/beam design.
Bikerman
killer2022
They still have to do alot of reviews to, "confirm" it exists. They only found evidence of it.
ocalhoun
killer2022 wrote:
They still have to do alot of reviews to, "confirm" it exists. They only found evidence of it.

Well, it won't be properly confirmed until someone else repeats the experiment with a different set of equipment... good luck with that.

Still, if people as reputable as them are saying 'we found it', I'm guessing they've got some damn good evidence to back it up.

*sigh*
not that I'd be particularly able to understand it... forgetting things sucks! There was a time when I knew what a boson was... and I even remember knowing about their search for the higgs boson, and knowing what the significance of it was... Memory is fuzzy, but I seem to remember it being the crucial difference in determining which of two contradictory theories about quantum physics was correct. The discovery (or lack of discovery) of it would be the final clue allowing scientists to determine which theory was the correct one.
kelseymh
ocalhoun wrote:
killer2022 wrote:
They still have to do alot of reviews to, "confirm" it exists. They only found evidence of it.

Well, it won't be properly confirmed until someone else repeats the experiment with a different set of equipment... good luck with that.


There are two independent measurements. The CMS and ATLAS devices are separate designs, with very different detector systems, different triggers, and different sensitivities for the various "stable" particles (which are what actually get measured). The analyses are entirely separate as well; the "combined result" is only obtained after the fact.

In fact, given the huge population of these collaborations (something like 2,000 physicists each!), all of the individual measurements (particular decay channels, such as H -> gamma gamma; H -> tau tau; H -> W+ W-, both W -> l nu), were most likely done by independent teams.

Quote:
Still, if people as reputable as them are saying 'we found it', I'm guessing they've got some damn good evidence to back it up.


You can evaluate the evidence for yourself. Both CMS and ATLAS have posted their preprints to the arXiv:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.7235 (CMS)
http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.7214 (ATLAS)

Quote:
not that I'd be particularly able to understand it... forgetting things sucks! There was a time when I knew what a boson was...


A particle with a spin which is an integer multiple of h-bar. The Higgs, like the pi-zero meson, has zero spin; the photon, Z, and W have "spin 1" (= h-bar units of angular momentum); the graviton is assumed to have "spin 2" (= 2*h-bar units of angular momentum).

A fermion, such as an electron or neutrino, has a spin which is a half-integer multiple of h-bar (1/2, 3/2, 5/2, etc.).

Quote:
and I even remember knowing about their search for the higgs boson, and knowing what the significance of it was... Memory is fuzzy, but I seem to remember it being the crucial difference in determining which of two contradictory theories about quantum physics was correct. The discovery (or lack of discovery) of it would be the final clue allowing scientists to determine which theory was the correct one.


Almost. The mechanism of spontaneous symmetry breaking in the Standard Model is how the weak-force bosons (Z0, W+ and W-) acquire mass. Higgs and others pointed out this mechanism in the mid-1960s, and showed that the mechanism implies the existence of a scalar (spin-0) quantum field. The excitations of that field would be the so-called Higgs boson (just as the excitations of the electromagnetic field are photons).

If the Higgs boson isn't observed in high-energy collisions in the mass region where it's expected, then the existence of the scalar Higgs field becomes more doubtful. If there is no Higgs mechanism, then a substantial portion of the Standard Model would be broken.
Bikerman
Michael, whilst we have your expertise, another question occurs:
What, if anything, does this do for the 'other' models? I'm thinking particularly about the super-symmetry model (SUSY). Does the discovery of the Higgs make SUSY less 'necessary' or even less likely, or is it still largely moot?
InfernoStar
Woah that cool...!
kelseymh
Bikerman wrote:
Michael, whilst we have your expertise, another question occurs:
What, if anything, does this do for the 'other' models? I'm thinking particularly about the super-symmetry model (SUSY). Does the discovery of the Higgs make SUSY less 'necessary' or even less likely, or is it still largely moot?


Well, SUSY is an extension to the Standard Model, not a substitute for it. The "interaction" (no pun intended) between the Higgs sector and SUSY is quite complex, because there are a number of new parameters. None of them have known values, so what you see in papers are plots of the possible values of one parameter vs. another, with different curves corresponding to possible values of yet another parameter.

In the simplest form of supersymmetry (called the "minimal supersymmetric standard model" or MSSM), there is an inverse relationship between the mass of the scalar Higgs (H[sup]0[/sup]) and the mass of the lightest supersymmetric particle (LSP). The LSP is stable, because there's no lighter SUSY particle for it to decay into, which makes it also a good dark matter candidate (physicists really like it when a single theory can tie together otherwise disconnected phenomena).
There is also a relationship between the Higgs mass and the SUSY-breaking scale.

A light Higgs makes for a heavier LSP, but for a lower SUSY-breaking scale. As the Higgs mass goes up, the LSP gets lighter, but the general SUSY-breaking scale gets higher. We already have constraints from the Tevatron and LHC which set a lower bound on the LSP; those bounds push the "expected" Higgs mass to lower values. But if the Higgs mass gets too low, then the SUSY-breaking scale gets up into the 100's of TeV, and the beneficial effects of SUSY disappear.

The reason SUSY is popular among theorists is that the superpartner particles can appear in higher-order (loop) interactions, and they come in with a phase opposite that of their normal-particle partners. That means the pair of contributions (partially) cancel out, which reduces the infinities (integrating over all possible contributions in unobservable loops) that have to be eliminated by renormalization.

The problem is that this cancellation depends on the masses of the particles in each diagram. If they are are equal, then it is exact. Otherwise, there is a residue which scales (I think) as something like the difference of the squared masses (M^2-m^2), which itself scales like the SUSY-breaking scale. So if the superpartners beome too massive, the cancellation becomes less signifcant, and we still have renormalization and other issues to deal with.

As I understand things, the current Higgs mass constraint, 115-135 GeV, which is consistent withe the 5-sigma observed boson at the LHC (126 GeV), is right on the hairy edge. We can just accommodate the SUSY-breaking scale, and have a relatively light LSP, and sensible SUSY couplings. But it seems to require more fine-tuning than particle theorists are comfortable with.
Dennise
Quote:
Well, it won't be properly confirmed until someone else repeats the experiment with a different set of equipment... good luck with that.


Indeed .... the cost of the CERN collider was about $10B. I doubt there will be another independent collider that could meet or exceed CERN's performance any time soon.
kelseymh
Dennise wrote:
Quote:
Well, it won't be properly confirmed until someone else repeats the experiment with a different set of equipment... good luck with that.


Indeed .... the cost of the CERN collider was about $10B. I doubt there will be another independent collider that could meet or exceed CERN's performance any time soon.


The International Linear Collider is intended for this. By colliding ~500 GeV electron/positron beams, it will be able to produce H[sup]0[/sup] among lots of other things. Without the thousands of relatively low energy tracks from proton collisions, will be able to study the particles properties to very high precision.
Dennise
Quote:
The International Linear Collider is intended for this. By colliding ~500 GeV electron/positron beams, it will be able to produce H[sup]0[/sup] among lots of other things. Without the thousands of relatively low energy tracks from proton collisions, will be able to study the particles properties to very high precision.



Looks like we'll have to wait 'till 2026 to see. The host country hasn't even been selected yet.
kelseymh
Dennise wrote:
Quote:
The International Linear Collider is intended for this. By colliding ~500 GeV electron/positron beams, it will be able to produce H[sup]0[/sup] among lots of other things. Without the thousands of relatively low energy tracks from proton collisions, will be able to study the particles properties to very high precision.



Looks like we'll have to wait 'till 2026 to see. The host country hasn't even been selected yet.


Yup. Why I switched from e+/e- collisions (BaBar at the SLAC PEP-II B-Factory) to dark matter searches (CDMS). The timescale for accelerator projects is just too long.
playfungames
It was a quite interesting one. They found the higgs boson particle, the whole world was excited and I kind of did not get it. I read about it, I get it for a few days and then I forget it. I hope that they bring out something fruitful from this higgs boson discovery.
spinout
If we say that the Higgs boson exist, the indian mathematic idea in contrary to alot of other Indian culture, there is a preatty ugly backside. Also, add the idea that this is the smallest particle that you need to know about that ever inflicts on the human life (i.e. the other smaller particles don't effect the boson enough to inflict the human life later on...). What do we have then; well you can chop of your dogs head with a machete without even thinking a second thought!
ocalhoun
spinout wrote:
If we say that the Higgs boson exist, the indian mathematic idea in contrary to alot of other Indian culture, there is a preatty ugly backside. Also, add the idea that this is the smallest particle that you need to know about that ever inflicts on the human life (i.e. the other smaller particles don't effect the boson enough to inflict the human life later on...). What do we have then; well you can chop of your dogs head with a machete without even thinking a second thought!



As near as I can tell, you said three things... indian mathematics having an ugly backside*, the boson being the smallest particle that affects human life**, and chopping a dog's head off without a second thought.***

I have no idea how these three things you said are connected at all.

*Which kind of 'indian'? And why does it have an ugly backside?
**Well, just about all particles affect human life, regardless of their size. They make up the matter we're made of, and the energy we run on and interact with. There are a few, I suppose (cosmic rays, perhaps?) that don't affect human life though... but that's not a function of their size.
***Well, it's always been (at least theoretically) possible to chop a dog's head off with a machete without a second thought... but why would you want to? And how is this animal abuse in any way related to the topic of the thread?
spinout
First, I am happy that you have read my statement, sorry for not seeing that until now!

* Sorry for that, Higgs himself isn't Indian - but the story I heard was that the idea come from a indian mathematically. Havn't had the time to check that.

** If you have a smallest object then the universe sucks! You are alone!!!

*** if you are alone due to number ** above, then what you do is not insteresting at all. And have no meaning, at all. That is where the dog metafor popped up!
ocalhoun
spinout wrote:

** If you have a smallest object then the universe sucks! You are alone!!!

Okay, you're going to have to explain the reasoning a bit... no, a lot more.
I'm very much not understanding the jump between 'there is a smallest object' --> 'you are alone'

Also, finding the Higgs boson isn't about finding the smallest object. As I understand it, plenty of other particles, equally as small, or even smaller, have been found already.
...and if certain theories hold true, then the boson itself is made up of yet smaller parts.
Quote:

*** if you are alone due to number ** above, then what you do is not insteresting at all. And have no meaning, at all.

Is this a religious sentiment of some sort?
Because Higgs boson or no Higgs boson, I can easily demonstrate that I am not alone. Lots of other people here, and animals, too.

...and I'm of the opinion that even if I was truly alone in the universe -- the only living thing in existence -- what I do would still be interesting and have meaning.


...I have a feeling that this bit of discussion might need to be moved to P&R if it keeps going in this direction.
spinout
I am from Sweden so no religion is used,
however, the God particle is made of smaller particles!
However - this should be moved to the economic aspect rather than a religious. If the Higgs would be the smallest then capitalism is the only ruler!
The Swedes are non religious but are socialists, and capitalism worries us! Therefore Higgs bosons is no good without smaller particles, if bosons are standalone then socialism is not working Smile
To us capitalism sucks... Cut throat economics (or the dog head metafor) just makes people suffer.
Still we got 5000 people without homes in Stockholm... or more. But could be worse...

The whole mentalism of the Higgs is to see if there is no need for unity, no God, there is a boson. But there is a problem; the bosons is made of smaller things...
Bikerman
This is no longer science and I'm considering locking it unless there is some attempt to support this claim that the Higgs is not fundamental. I have seen nothing to support the notion that it can be further split - support it or retract it.

I also deeply disapprove of this rubbish about God particles.The story behind that unfortunate choice of words is known. The phrase is scientifically meaningless and semantically misleading, to say the least. That language is OK for chat and maybe p&r but it doesn't belong here. SCIENCE, not bullshit.

If you want to make political/social analogies and metaphors then do it somewhere else - suggest politics forum or perhaps p&r.
spinout
Having a thread about the GOD Particle and to just support or retract it, well it is hard. You can immideately drop it into the general chat section!!! I think a moderator should do that.
Many people/especially scientists have used it just in the purpose to NOT have any religious aspects working in life. That makes it more difficult.
The science in this is that even the GOD particle are made of sub-particles, that is not clear to all!
And that point of science... well does not Support it OR retract it! So dump this into general chat!
spinout
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGtA4XXQRNE

A nervous but good talk about the subject.
ocalhoun
I am genuinely curious to find out just what the heck is going on inside your head to make you say such things...

spinout wrote:
If the Higgs would be the smallest then capitalism is the only ruler!

What in the name of the IPU are you talking about?
You really need to explain these jumps in your logic a lot better.
...'cause all I've got now is
1. Higgs boson 'is the smallest'
2. ???
3. Capitalism!

You need to slowly, carefully, and in great detail, explain why you think there's any link between this particular particle and any religious or socio-economic concepts.
Quote:

The whole mentalism of the Higgs is to see if there is no need for unity, no God, there is a boson.

Okay... I can see we've got some problems here.

Let's start out with: What do you think this Higgs boson actually is?

spinout wrote:
Having a thread about the GOD Particle
The science in this is that even the GOD particle are made of sub-particles,

Okay... maybe I'm beginning to understand what you're thinking here.

I think it's time to explain something:
Whatever some very low quality 'science news' story you've read, the Higgs boson is not God. Nor does it prove or disprove the existence of God. (Or the IPU for that matter.)
This whole 'God particle' thing is just a name, ONLY a name. Nothing more. It doesn't imply any connection between the particle and the deity at all.

spinout wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGtA4XXQRNE

A nervous but good talk about the subject.

...Skipped around the video.
He seems to be decent at explaining what's going on yes... but I didn't see him mention God or capitalism.
I think you'd do well to follow that example.
spinout
What does IPU stand for? Pink unicorn?


1. IF , you missed the IF. This stands for the disproof many uses like sean carroll. Ok I can go for the manlihood this stands for. If you take the female aspect of the universe like a grouping under a man/god -> then having the IF argument of the boson beeing the God particle -> then you become the group dissolver and a new person grouping others. And this is what it is all about!
2. We are a state of concern, or used to be! This is really a pity. It is all about what we think we are : Are we sole warriors like the US or the group power under a leader like the Northern Korea? Ok, I ruled out communism here. There is a story about communism that worked, like in small communities about 10000 peoples or less. But there is not a story about capitalism that have worked, yet. Tell me!
3. If we rule out any unity of any kind, then we have the world as today. 10% have the resourses and 90% suffers. Woundt it be better if less didn't suffer?
spinout
Into general chat... Well the use of this is very interesting!!! Why are we keep searching for fields n particles beyond and beyond the other one? Bigger n bigger colliders...
Ok, we may enter new technologies in a near future but with our present mindset it will be of little use. And the dumb thing is that this research has only one meaning - to ensure our present mindset. Or enhance it. This is politics of course! I was only joking when I suggested the move into general chat, hm atleast honest about it... had a smile the whole day on my face... Hehe you can combine much as in this case science and politics.
As a Swede we have no religious interests (maybe stoppage from new religions like muslim or whatever to build churches, but then we are being political "rasists" but who cares in the world of the Higgs field... hehe)

So more logics, but one must understand logics too hehe no offence.

One may wonder why Korea is not pure communism and as long as there is a dictator on top the country then it is not "communism". So into religion; IF there is a God as the Swedes sees it -> god = pure communism! And the Higgs field is the opposite to that.
ocalhoun
spinout wrote:
What does IPU stand for? Pink unicorn?

Invisible Pink Unicorn (peace be unto her), of course.
(I was the one who delivered the IPU's prophesy that the world would not end in Dec 2012, and now that the prophesy has been proven true, it proves that the IPU is the one true goddess beyond all reasonable doubt. ^.^)

Now... back on topic, more or less.
Let's delve deeper into this tangle of 'WTF?' I've been looking into:
Quote:

1. IF , you missed the IF. This stands for the disproof many uses like sean carroll. Ok I can go for the manlihood this stands for.

I got your If-then correlation. What I'm asking is: WHY do you make that connection?
Quote:
If you take the female aspect of the universe

The what?
I was unaware that the universe as a whole has a female aspect... and presumably also a male aspect.
Is this a form of Yin/Yang philosophy perhaps?
Quote:
like a grouping under a man/god -> then having the IF argument of the boson beeing the God particle -> then you become the group dissolver and a new person grouping others. And this is what it is all about!

I see you're still connecting the higgs boson to God.
I assure you, there is no such connection, it's just a dumb name somebody thought up.

The name originated because physicists saw discovering this boson as such an important discovery that it would be like proving/disproving the existence of God.
But it is simply metaphorical. It doesn't meant that it actually is proving/disproving the existence of God.

And I find it interesting that you assume God is male.
Even if it were proven that there is a God, how do you know what form it takes?
Who's to say that God(dess) isn't invisible, pink, and female?
Quote:

2. We are a state of concern, or used to be! This is really a pity. It is all about what we think we are : Are we sole warriors like the US or the group power under a leader like the Northern Korea? Ok, I ruled out communism here. There is a story about communism that worked, like in small communities about 10000 peoples or less. But there is not a story about capitalism that have worked, yet. Tell me!

I have yet to understand, even in the slightest, why you think the capitalism/communism debate is in any way related to the higgs boson.

As the Daleks would say:
EXPLAIN! EXPLAIN! EXPLAAAAIN!
Quote:

3. If we rule out any unity of any kind,

Are you under the impression that the presence or absence of the higgs boson rules out unity of any kind?
Quote:
then we have the world as today. 10% have the resourses and 90% suffers. Woundt it be better if less didn't suffer?

Why yes, it would be better.
But how is that in any way related to the higgs boson?

spinout wrote:
Into general chat... Well the use of this is very interesting!!! Why are we keep searching for fields n particles beyond and beyond the other one? Bigger n bigger colliders...

Science, of course.
It's the drive to discover more about the universe and how it works.

And besides just the warm fuzzy feeling you get by knowing how the universe works, that science has a chance of someday becoming applied science, ie, engineering, technology. Because knowing more about how the universe works gives you more opportunities to change the way the universe works to your advantage.
(ie, knowing the mechanics of rolling objects gives you the ability to build wheels and move things around more easily... knowing the way electrons pass through various materials gives you the ability to build transistors and microchips, enabling you to process data more easily... and maybe, someday, knowing how these tiny sub-particles work will enable us to do something else more easily.)
Quote:

Ok, we may enter new technologies in a near future but with our present mindset it will be of little use.

Way to have a shortsighted perspective there.
If it's not of any use right now, there's no point, huh?
Why not invest in the future a little?
Quote:
And the dumb thing is that this research has only one meaning - to ensure our present mindset.

You completely misunderstand the meaning of this research.
Quote:
One may wonder why Korea is not pure communism

Care to tell me what it is then?
And, just to be clear, you are referring to N. Korea, right?
Quote:
and as long as there is a dictator on top the country then it is not "communism".

An interesting assertion there.
Quote:
So into religion; IF there is a God as the Swedes sees it -> god = pure communism!

Wait... just before you said that a dictator being in charge means it's not communism.
Now, you're saying that if there's a God (the ultimate dictator), then it IS communism.
These two seem to contradict each other.
Quote:
And the Higgs field is the opposite to that.

It's the opposite of what? God? Communism?


So, in my continuing efforts to understand this mess, here's what I've got so far. This is my best guess of what's running through your head:
Higgs Boson exists, therefore God exists.
God exists, therefore capitalism is the correct socio-economic system.
(And also the female aspect of the universe is grouped... whatever that means.)
--But Wait!--
If the Higgs Boson is made of smaller parts, then God is also made of smaller parts.
If God is made of smaller parts, communism is the correct socio-economic system.

Please do correct any misunderstandings here about what it is you're thinking.
(And do please note, the purple section there is my best guess of what you believe... It does not represent my views in any way.

Also, in the interest of clear understanding, I'm going to need some definitions from you.
I want you to tell me, in your own words, what each of these words means:
1: Higgs boson
2: boson
3: communism
4: capitalism
5: God
spinout
yin/yang - man/female... Well female is "group thinking" and male is the opposite "stand alone thinking".
I do not think a god should be male. Invisible pink female is ok.

The higgs boson and "the god-particle" saying stands for a stand alone particle not unifying the universe.

North korea yes...
Higgs field and the context of "god particle" is the opposite to a god and communism.
A god as dictator is an impossible is tha aim if playing the game of "life".
Communism is not the same as a dictators communism.

Alter you guesses:
IF Higgs Boson as "god particles" exists, therefore God NOT exist.
IF God exists, therefore communism is the correct socio-economic system.
If the Higgs Boson is made of smaller parts, then God have a way to exist.
If God is made of smaller parts in infinite, communism is the GOD-socio-economic system.

Definitions:
1: Higgs boson = higgs n higgs - there was more people to that idea... a particle of a field
2: boson = a particle of a field
3: communism = system of god
4: capitalism = god goes to anger management Smile
5: God = if there is a god... well having this planet with all the wars ... well this must be a bad day. But it might come better if you have a bad one Smile
ocalhoun
Well, okay... I think I'm about done delving into the crazy now.


You have fun with that!
spinout
God is a crazy communist! Cool
duytam28
Can't beleive it, I've just got to know about Higg Bosons few months ago!
spinout
Hm, it is another smaller particle. And it wont stop there, boson particles are made of another smaller particles - and it keeps going that way. The thread is here because the idea of bosons being the god particle interfare with the idea of a god. Not in the way of a god beeing there but the fact that if Bosons were the god particle (stand alone particles) the way of a single god disappears. If so; there is either atheism or polytheism, and not monotheism!

I am a polytheist so this suits me actually... Laughing
ocalhoun
spinout wrote:
The thread is here because the idea of bosons being the god particle interfare with the idea of a god.



How many times must people say it? The name 'god particle' is just a name. The particle actually has no more theological significance than any other particle.

And no, the thread is here because they (are pretty sure that they) found it, not because of what it means about god.



(And one for me, too, for getting myself dragged back into this mess.)
spinout
Of course it is just NOT a name, the "GOD PARTICLE". I was a concept to eliminate all the ideas of a God interferance with the universe, a concept for men to strengthen their position!

And it is a retribution! In the science meetings the idea of God is forbidden - this God particle thing was a way to rule out even thinking of a god. As easy as that!
ocalhoun
spinout wrote:
Of course it is just NOT a name, the "GOD PARTICLE". I was a concept to eliminate all the ideas of a God interferance with the universe, a concept for men to strengthen their position!

And it is a retribution! In the science meetings the idea of God is forbidden - this God particle thing was a way to rule out even thinking of a god. As easy as that!


Now I know you're trolling me! ^.^ Well played, sir.
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