Since I decided a number of years ago that my Roman Catholic upbringing just didn't fit into my own personal beliefs, I've been on a bit of a spiritual quest to find a path that *is* right for me. I'm pretty certain that one of the pagan paths is for me, as I've always had a strong tie with nature, and some of the beliefs I've encountered in the various pagan paths just make so much more sense to me.
Any thoughts on the issue would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
I want to help you .But i can't understand what you said.
Firstly if you decide to be strictly pagan I wish you well on your path.
That said, I would recommend you study all the religions. I've found that all religions have something good to offer and when it comes down to it, it is love from your heart (unconditional and true love - not the selfish I'll love you if you love me back kind) that is what gives the most.
Paganism is great in that it honors nature though I have noticed that some use the magick without understanding how god/life really works, and it just becomes another distraction.
Whatever it is that you choose (if you choose at all 
) I wish you well.
namaste (The God in me greets the God in you) | inygmuh wrote: |
| Roman Catholic upbringing just didn't |
What specifically?
| Quote: |
| I've been on a bit of a spiritual quest to find a path that *is* right for me |
yeah? how's that going? Shouldn't that by definition be a very short journey? Since only you know you shouldn't you know what you want?
Feeling listless now?
http://CUF.org
You might want to reflect on the origin of that word for a moment.
| Quote: |
| I've always had a strong tie with nature |
I'm bound by gravity, too.
| Quote: |
| the beliefs I've encountered in the various pagan paths |
Are RIFE with internal contradiction and as such are necessarily false.
www.exwitch.org
and
www.geocities.com/expagan4christ/
Spend some time reading 
I am a pagan. And I am proud of it.
It is a good path, imho.
For me, it is THE path. I have even revoked my baptism to clear myself from roman-catholic curse (yes, it IS possible, even almost all christians would say: NO, it is not - they do not want anyone to remove the curse). There are many different pagan cults, each with slightly different believes, but what is common to almost all neopagans is that they value freedom, spiritual freedom, and their beliefs arent dogmatic. Thus, you should not follow someone else's path, but develop your own, accepting inspiration or advice from fellow pagans, but no dogmas. There are no rules, unless YOU choose them.
Last edited by artur.h on Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
| Quote: |
| There are no rules, unless YOU choose them. |
Wow, they call that a religion lol 
I call that do whatever the hell you want to do, and then end up in hell anyway. | coolclay wrote: |
I call that do whatever the hell you want to do, and then end up in hell anyway. |
Pagans have no hell. And yes, it is a religion, few thousands years older than yours. But please, this is a pagan thread, go write Xtian propaganda and LOL statements in a Xtian thread. Or make a separate thread for Xtian-Pagan flamewars. We want to discuss peacefully here. | gonzo wrote: |
| yeah? how's that going? Shouldn't that by definition be a very short journey? Since only you know you shouldn't you know what you want? |
Why? Just assuming he knows exactly what he doesn't want doesn't mean he knows exactly what he wants. Or in this case, knowing what beliefs don't satisfy him doesn't necessarily mean he knows all the beliefs that will. Hence the search for better beliefs and ideals...
| Quote: |
Due to its broad scope and individual nature, spirituality is perhaps better understood by highlighting a number of key concepts that arise for people when asked to describe what spirituality means to them. Research by Martsolf & Mickley (1998) highlighted the following areas as worthy of consideration:
Meaning – significance of life; making sense of situations; deriving purpose.
Values – beliefs, standards and ethics that are cherished.
Transcendence – experience and appreciation of a dimension beyond self.
Connecting – increased awareness of a connection with self, others, God/Spirit/Divine, and nature.
Becoming – an unfolding of life that demands reflection and experience; includes a sense of who one is and how one knows.
Spirituality, according to most adherants, is an essential part of an individual's holistic health and well-being, by developing an awareness of a "transcendent dimension" to life. |
I highlighted the significance of life part because that is one of the most highly b=debated and pondered question... What is the significance of life? What is the purpose of living? It takes time to come up with a personal belief that'll satisfy you for the rest of your life... at least for most people it does. :p
Edit: Almost forgot to mention the source : wikipedia of course. | Quote: |
| Pagans have no hell |
You mean pagans don't believe in hell, the last time I checked you don't need to believe in something for it to exist.
Oh and I am not flaming anyone or anything just stating my opinions.
And what the hell is "Xtian propaganda" and "Xtian thread"
| Quote: |
| few thousands years older than yours. |
And how the hell do you "know" what my religion is.
And FYI I am about one of the most peaceful people I know, and I rather enjoy having healthy heated peaceful debates with people, even when they make ignorant assumptions about me and my beliefs.
BTW what's the point in a religion that is made up and has no rules? | coolclay wrote: |
| Quote: | | Pagans have no hell |
You mean pagans don't believe in hell, the last time I checked you don't need to believe in something for it to exist. |
and vice versa. believing in it doesnt make it exist.
so your point is worthless.
| coolclay wrote: |
And what the hell is "Xtian propaganda" and "Xtian thread"
|
http://www.geocities.com/expagan4christ/descent.html
and others posted above. you-will-end-in-hell rants. the LOL "statements"
| coolclay wrote: |
[url]few thousands years older than yours.[/url]
And how the hell do you "know" what my religion is.
|
unless you are pagan or animist (an i can safely say you are not, based
on your posts), it is certainly few thousands years older. if you are a christian (and you almost certainly are, based on your posts anm mail adress), even much older
| coolclay wrote: |
BTW what's the point in a religion that is made up and has no rules? |
freedom? | coolclay wrote: |
| BTW what's the point in a religion that is made up and has no rules? |
BTW what you mean by "made up"? In what sense is my religion more "made up" than yours? Just because you belive in your god and not my goddess, while I believe in my goddess and not in your god? Doesnt make much sense to me. They are pretty equal in this aspect. Being peaceful should include showing some respect to your opponents. | Quote: |
| There are no rules, unless YOU choose them |
You said yourself that you can "make up" any rules for your religion. | coolclay wrote: |
| Quote: | | There are no rules, unless YOU choose them |
You said yourself that you can "make up" any rules for your religion. |
no, it is not making religious rules.
it is freedom of living by your own rules. with no threat of punishment for expressing our freedom. it is being equal to our goddess. our goddess give us the freedom, and that is the greatest gift she could give us. With no promise of eternal salvation, and no threat of eternal damnation.
I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and I tell you that you are free.what is the point in hating each other's religion? why pick a fight?
this thread is a perfect example of what is at the root of so many conflicts around the world...
When you will stop being part of the problem and choose to be part of the solution?
We are not hating anyone or anyones religion, we are just discussing it, in an adult manner. I have no problem with other people making choices about their religion. Thankfully God gave us all the oppurtunity to make choices about ourselves, and choose our own destiny.
We were all born with that ability and I respect others opinions even though they may differ from mine.
Over the course of the past few weeks, I have been on a riveting spiritual journey that has accelerated furiously. During this, I have been able to see where all the religions have common ground-- accepting God either knowingly or unknowingly. Whether or not they approach or discuss it in the same manner, it is the same God.
I consider myself a Christian Pagan. Yes, I do exist. Call me a paradox if you will. I understand God as Goddess and appreciate all natural incarnations of Her. I am adopting Pagan rituals, as they are similar to any other ritual in any other religion, simply celebrating and honoring different aspects of the same entity.
If you are looking for information on Paganism, it would first be important for you to understand there are a couple routes you can take: the ancient Paganism of the Celts or neopaganism often associated with Wicca. I am not saying you would be unable to marry the two ideas into an idea of what you want, I am simply saying you may want to consider the fact that Paganism is quite an umbrella term and there is much research you will want to do before assigning yourself the label of "Pagan."
I have only skimmed the surface of these concepts. Like I said, read up on the religion to get a better feel for it.
Blessed Be.
| Gonzo wrote: |
| Quote: | | I've always had a strong tie with nature |
I'm bound by gravity, too. |
LMAO, sorry thats just so funny
I think the anciest paganism is one of the most beatiful religions. But I am not a pagan, I am agnostic. Means that a dont believe in any religion and in the same time I believe in all religions. 
| coolclay wrote: |
| what's the point in a religion that is made up and has no rules? |
Abatement of guilt.
No rules? Yeah, that idea's actually been around a long time: anarchy
I do enjoy the INORDINATE, rich contradiction in wiccan-esque "religions". Wicca is the world's oldest 80 year old religion.
Pagan is also not a religion. If it is then so is the belief that unicorns made of swiss cheese power the sun. Words do have specific meaning. A thing is what it is irrespective of whatever desire you may have to the contrary.
Really, subjective morality lay at the heart of these conflicted beliefs.
http://www.carm.org/relativism/relativism_refute.htm
| Quote: |
Relativism is the philosophical position that all points of view are equally valid and that all truth is relative to the individual. But, if we look further, we see that this proposition is not logical. In fact, it is self refuting.
1. All truth is relative
1. If all truth is relative, then the statement "All truth is relative" would be absolutely true. If it is absolutely true, then not all things are relative and the statement that "All truth is relative" is false.
2. There are no absolute truths
1. The statement "There are no absolute truths" is an absolute statement which is supposed to be true. Therefore it is an absolute truth and "There are no absolute truths" is false.
2. If there are no absolute truths, then you cannot believe anything absolutely at all, including that there are no absolute truths. Therefore, nothing could be really true for you - including relativism.
|
Take a moment to look over the whole page I know a guy who is an Odenist:
He believes in the ancient Norse god Oden.
He is also a bit of the tree-hugger type.
yes religions are good for moral guiding but i have to say paganism is a nice concept and god whould know who is good and bad no?
Becoming a "Pagan"...
First, stop using the word Pagan in general use. Pagan is not a religion. Pagan is a word that effectively means "non-judeochristian", and can be extremely insulting to people who actually belong to real religions that many christians would call "pagan".
Pagan is a christian word. If you really don't want to be christian, don't use their propaganda.
It's true that some wiccans(and members of several other religions) sometimes refer to themselves as "pagan", but all this does is further the confusion(and IMO is simply due to lack of understanding of the term).
Neopagan is a term that might fit what you are looking for.
Now, There are a considerable number of religions out there.
Go to OCRT and just read up on some of them. If neopagan is what you are looking for (these are fairly new religions that base their beliefs on ancient religions), look into wicca, asatru, and druidism. Personally I'd also recommend looking into Buddhism and Taoism.Also, look into Universism. @ all,
what 
I don`t understand a f...ing word in this thread.
Be whatever you want to be, believe what ever you want to believe. All as long as you do not inflict damage on someone.
Be a Jedi to(k)night. LOL.
unbeliever morningstar 
| Quote: |
| I don`t understand a f...ing word in this thread. |
Then learn f...ing english | coolclay wrote: |
| Quote: | | I don`t understand a f...ing word in this thread. |
Then learn f...ing english |
Before talking large learn to accept others. 
Think my german is also better than yours. 
remember by pointing to someone three fingers point back | silvermesh wrote: |
First, stop using the word Pagan in general use. Pagan is not a religion. Pagan is a word that effectively means "non-judeochristian", and can be extremely insulting to people who actually belong to real religions that many christians would call "pagan". |
Yes, but it's been adopted to classify a group of people and a way of practice. Christians have adopted holidays and certain rituals from Pagans that predate the church yet continue to call them their own. I don't believe this is any different. Then again, there's always the chance that I'm wrong. | hayley wrote: |
| Yes, but it's been adopted to classify a group of people and a way of practice. Christians have adopted holidays and certain rituals from Pagans that predate the church yet continue to call them their own. I don't believe this is any different. Then again, there's always the chance that I'm wrong. |
it's mostly that most people who belong to neo-pagan religions or at least the ones who started them were once christian themselves, and now disenchanted with the whole christian ordeal..
christians used "pagan" holidays for two reasons. 1) to make people forget that it was a "pagan" holiday, and 2) to make it easier to convert "pagan"s. ( "see? we have the same holiday, we just call it something else" ).
both reasons are insulting if you ask me.
it's not that a wiccan will never refer to themselves as a pagan, and it's not that he would have chosen an incorrect word, it's just that to do so only adds to the confusion and makes the religion into a joke for many. To me, making ones own religion into a joke is to be avoided. | silvermesh wrote: |
it's mostly that most people who belong to neo-pagan religions or at least the ones who started them were once christian themselves, and now disenchanted with the whole christian ordeal..
|
Well, as I mentioned earlier ITT, I am a Christian who has adopted some Pagan practices I feel are important to honor God/Goddess as an whole entity. I feel that Pagans do not honor God as a male enough and that Christians do not honor God as a female enough. I completely understand that you said "most people who belong to pagan religions," but I think it is also important to recognize people who entertain the way of thought as a fresh perspective. In the Pagan community, not everyone abandons Christianity and not everyone begins as Christian; I'm sure you know this. All I am saying is that Christian thought can coexist with Pagan thought. I do not think either is complete without the other.If Asatru is pagan. Then count me in.
"Praised be the Lord" I hope not =)
Im more open minded about the religion subject.
| earthchild wrote: |
| Firstly if you decide to be strictly pagan I wish you well on your path. |
Thank you. Sorry I took so long to reply - I was out of town
| Quote: |
| That said, I would recommend you study all the religions. I've found that all religions have something good to offer |
Well, I *have* found many things from the various religions which actually make sense to me, and many different parts of the various world religions actually seem to fit together when you think about it...
| Quote: |
| and when it comes down to it, it is love from your heart (unconditional and true love - not the selfish I'll love you if you love me back kind) that is what gives the most. |
that is so true
| Quote: |
| Paganism is great in that it honors nature though I have noticed that some use the magick without understanding how god/life really works, and it just becomes another distraction. |
I see that all too often, myself. That's the very reason I've decided to avoid anything to do with magic[k] for the time being. I need to understand what I'm doing before I attempt *anything*. | gonzo wrote: |
| inygmuh wrote: | | Roman Catholic upbringing just didn't |
What specifically? |
The main thing that bothers me about Christianity in general is the fact that the Church Hierarchy considers itself to be a cornerstone of people's faith. The "gospel" of St. Thomas is considered by many scholars to be the closest thing to Jesus' actual words that any of us has seen to date, yet the Vatican disclaims it as heresy, most likely because it downplays the Church as an institution. I mean, the mere words "the kingdom of God is inside you and all around you, not in buildings of wood and stone" flat out removes the authority the Church "officials" have over the faith. In all honesty, Christianity should simply stick to the basics. Harm no one, do what you can to help your fellow man, and worship God above no other. If you really think about the commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me," all you really have to do to "translate" it is change the word 'before' to 'above.' That doesn't necessarily mean that one cannot appreciate other things. It simply means that God should be #1 on the list, assuming there *is* a list.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | I've been on a bit of a spiritual quest to find a path that *is* right for me |
yeah? how's that going? Shouldn't that by definition be a very short journey? Since only you know you shouldn't you know what you want?
Feeling listless now? |
Well, considering I still have to do a bit of discovering within myself to figure out just who I really am, thanks to years of brainwashing that my own desires are basically irrelevant and that I should do every single thing the Church says without question, my quest to find what's right for me is taking quite a while. I have settled on a few things, but so far, I'm still looking around.
| Quote: |
You might want to reflect on the origin of that word for a moment |
Excuse my bad choice of words. I meant neopagan.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | I've always had a strong tie with nature |
I'm bound by gravity, too. |
Very funny. Do you get your rocks off by insulting others' beliefs? If so, please take your hate elsewhere, and thank you for wasting everyone's time.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | the beliefs I've encountered in the various pagan paths |
Are RIFE with internal contradiction and as such are necessarily false. |
You're just as bad as the rest of the media, at least as far as taking sound bytes and using them to your advantage. Perhaps you should consider politics as a career? Just because a religion *isn't* Christianity doesn't mean it's completely invalid or evil. That's fundamentalist nonsense.
Okay, what's your point? Those sites simply demonstrated to me a few things I already knew. Everyone knows that many Christians consider non-Christian religions to be devil-worship, and whether they truly are or not is mostly just a matter of conjecture. You're welcome to try to convince me that Christianity is the proper way to go, but simply attacking my every word will get you nowhere at all. If you'd read those sites you asked me to look at, you'd realize you are not following their recommended course of action for dealing with "people like me." Also, my concept of the Creator is not all that different from the Christian view. It's just more complex. | hayley wrote: |
I am simply saying you may want to consider the fact that Paganism is quite an umbrella term and there is much research you will want to do before assigning yourself the label of "Pagan."
I have only skimmed the surface of these concepts. Like I said, read up on the religion to get a better feel for it.
Blessed Be. |
Well, my own personal use of the word pagan refers to any religion which is not Judeo-Christian. | silvermesh wrote: |
Becoming a "Pagan"...
First, stop using the word Pagan in general use. Pagan is not a religion. Pagan is a word that effectively means "non-judeochristian", |
Which is actually how I use the word...
| Quote: |
| and can be extremely insulting to people who actually belong to real religions that many christians would call "pagan". Pagan is a christian word. If you really don't want to be christian, don't use their propaganda. |
My sincerest apologies to anyone whom I may have offended 
| Quote: |
| It's true that some wiccans(and members of several other religions) sometimes refer to themselves as "pagan", but all this does is further the confusion(and IMO is simply due to lack of understanding of the term). |
I definitely agree. I will admit, though, that while I have been researching this topic off and on for a few years now, I never thought to actually look into the terminology as much as the theology. Of course, I was raised Christian, so that is most likely why I hadn't thought I was misusing/abusing the term or the religions included in its broad scope
| Quote: |
| Neopagan is a term that might fit what you are looking for. |
I have heard that term before, and actually, have just recently considered using it instead, as it makes more sense than that "other" word.
| Quote: |
Now, There are a considerable number of religions out there.
Go to OCRT and just read up on some of them. |
I was aware that religions are great in number, but despite the fact I've heard of OCRT before and even read a few pages there, that is another place which I have failed to recognize as a good sourse of info. Thank you for the gentle nudge, though. I'll be sure to spend more time there 
| Quote: |
| If neopagan is what you are looking for (these are fairly new religions that base their beliefs on ancient religions), look into wicca, asatru, and druidism. Personally I'd also recommend looking into Buddhism and Taoism.Also, look into Universism. |
Out of the above I've actually heard of prior to now, I have loooked into, thought not in great depth. This is a long journey for myself (or anyone else for that matter).How can you say pagans have no rules? It depends I suppose on what kind of paganism you follow.. I know that my religion definitely has rules. You can't just do whatever you want.. but they are rules that every person with a conscience should have. The main law that I live by is.. "if it harms no one, do what you will". Bad energies come back times three, and you shouldn't change someone's free will.. unless it is an unusual circumstance. And most of all.. never criticize someone else's beliefs. I think that more people need to have open minds..
I believe in the "flying spaghetti monster" like a few other million members of this church. If your really a doctor i'll take my words back again.
Really, I'm not the first to say that paganism is not really a defined culture or religion. Just like my fav doctor said to me once, most of these things go down in history books, but we never learn. Just like war, sacrifice, etc., Times have changed and there's not much of this going on round as in the old days... Interesting though.
artur.h, areńt you a discordian? I see a great big discordian symbol as your avatar.
Why don't you use the word heathen (though it does feel like an insult for some inexplicable reason) instead of pagan as it isn't tied up with an already existing belief structure?
+What is your view of god at the moment + are you looking for a greater being to define or clarify your practices or perceptions in your current method of living?
I was raised as a Roman Catholic in a predominatly Irish-Catholic section of Boston, MA., U.S., and have gone through all the trappings of that religion over the years. I learned on my own the accpetance of my fellow man and that his beliefs do not have to coincide with mine in order to be just as true (to him or her) as mine are to me. Unfortunalty this is not really taught in Bible Study, CCD, or in the Church as a whole. Sure the Bible says we should love our fellow man, but time has shown very clearly that really means "love your fellow man as long as he prays the same way you do".
I don't know alot about Pagenism, just what I have read in the passing article here and there. I know my anscetors were Druids and Pagens, aside from that I know practically nothing in comparison to some. I also don't consider any opposing religion as a threat to me personally or to my beliefs as a Catholic. I wish you all the luck in the world in your quest for what's right for you, and I hope you find the answers you seek. I mean no sarcasm here, nor am I putting you or your beliefs down in anyway. If your religion teaches how to accept those around you, and makes your day a bit easier....I just may sign up myself. I'm personally semi-pagan (using the meaning of the word "not judeo-christian"), as I still agree with some Christian things, but I'm seriously leaning towards on of the pagan religions (if not a specific name, then just a hybrid of other religions. Actually, making your own beliefs into a sort of hybrid-religion seems smarter than conforming to a preset religion you might not feel totally comfortable in). I mean, there's not much I DO know about pagan religions, but then there's not much I know about Christianity either.
Sorry for joining the conversation late, but I just joined the forum and decided to take a read.
I to am a neo-pagan, though I consider myself a neo-druid.
Granted, I myself, have only begun searching this path, I find that there is a lot to learn from it.
While reading this forum I have found that I don't really have anything to add, well, because so much of it was said.
inygmuh,
I applaud your desire to find your true self. Enjoy the search, I am.
I will say that a search of all religions is a good way to look into this.
i don't know... is paganism a religion? does it has a doctrine? do they believe in anything? do they hace simbols like the cross, the crescent or the david's star?
if someone tells me that they have no doctrine to believe and to follow and they do not believe in God or nothing like the sort, then they are not pagans but atheists. (that's what i understood of what many people meant) and there are lots of diferences: first pagans have gods and rituals and they do not do whatever they want. and if you concider yourself pagan then you have not idea of what in this world is a pagan: you just call youself pagan to call the attention.
there's still something i don't really understand. pegan is a word used by christians about a religion that isn't christianity right? also is it pegan or pagan pr pagen? sorry i just want to get the word right. but for now i'm just gonna use pegan.
from what i read, "pegan" religion is all about goddesses and nature and mother earth etc right? i just want to make sure.
but i think if pegan is what i think it is, it should a religion. because what is a religion? a cult that has become more organized over time and believe in a supreme being, hold rituals, some even have a hierarchy system, doctrines, initiation processes, etc etc etc.
i'm actually really interested in pegan. does anyone have any suggestions on books about peganism?
| 494701557 wrote: |
there's still something i don't really understand. pegan is a word used by christians about a religion that isn't christianity right? also is it pegan or pagan pr pagen? sorry i just want to get the word right. but for now i'm just gonna use pegan.
from what i read, "pegan" religion is all about goddesses and nature and mother earth etc right? i just want to make sure.
but i think if pegan is what i think it is, it should a religion. because what is a religion? a cult that has become more organized over time and believe in a supreme being, hold rituals, some even have a hierarchy system, doctrines, initiation processes, etc etc etc.
i'm actually really interested in pegan. does anyone have any suggestions on books about peganism? |
Pagan is a term used when the Roman Catholic church was trying to spread. The term literally means anything that is not judeo-christian in origin. THere are many pagan paths, though most of them today are call neo-pagan, or new pagan. The one that I follow, which is neo druidism, has many historical roots. Another is Wicca. Both of these follow similar beliefs. Neither actually promots one gender over the other, as both have a pantheon of gods and goddesses, the major differences between the two are in how you worship.
If you wish to find out more information, on druidry especially, go to http://www.druidry.org. This is the Order of Bards, Ovates, and Druids. A Britian based neo-druidic order started in the seventeenth or eighteenth century.
As for information on Wicca, I couldn't help you out there. If you wish to find information on paganism in general, look for information on Celtic Mythology and Wisdom.sorry i had to comment on one statement
| Quote: |
| Over the course of the past few weeks, I have been on a riveting spiritual journey that has accelerated furiously. During this, I have been able to see where all the religions have common ground-- accepting God either knowingly or unknowingly. Whether or not they approach or discuss it in the same manner, it is the same God. |
You have not researched many religions...there are plenty in which the word God is not even discussed. No offense but i wouldnt continue your journey, a few weeks is not enough to really learn about the wealth of different concepts and ideas in relation to our existance. I really wish you'd turn to Roman Catholicism for the answer. Christ calls out for you, He calls our for everyone, give Him a chance. However, I wish you luck on your journey... choose your beliefs wisely.
you cannot "turn" to a religion for an answer, a "religion" turns to you. if something calls to you it's because you feel it in your heart. you don't just decide..well..maybe this is right so i'll go turn to the catholics.
hell is just an idea made to make people fear god.
and to answer the original answer, hell (no pun intended. lol) yes, i'm pagan.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| I really wish you'd turn to Roman Catholicism for the answer. Christ calls out for you, He calls our for everyone, give Him a chance. However, I wish you luck on your journey... choose your beliefs wisely. |
This, and phrases similar to this are exaclty why people leave religions such as christianity. People feel like your religion is being forced onto them, though this may not have been you intent, but it is still the way it feels to a lot of people. I define myself as a Churchless Non-Hipocritic Christian. To me i should not need a church filled with people who are going there to look good, to worship the God who has touched and spoken to me. However, i am among the few that believe the holy spirit actualy endowed humans with a form of magic which the bible calls "spiritual gifts"
I fully respect the wiccan religions, as i have several friends who were wiccan, or are. The only problem i seem to have with them is by nature of their belief in freedom they get extremely testy if you say anything that even remotely threatens their ability to do what they want. Many actualy join the religion as an excuse to disobey any and all athorities. A great many of those who call themselves wiccans, quite honestly.. scare me. I have been "cursed" by some several times, and they have come forward and told me. Though i fought the.. spells? off in my own way and manner. Such things as that anger me, that they would say peace and practice attack. I understand that this is only a very small faction of them. But overall it causes me to fear them in general :/ if i didnt have friends who were.. i would probubly avoid them all together.
However, i wish you luck in your exploration in how the world works. may you find the true spirit of the world | elincinerador wrote: |
i don't know... is paganism a religion? does it has a doctrine? do they believe in anything? do they hace simbols like the cross, the crescent or the david's star?
if someone tells me that they have no doctrine to believe and to follow and they do not believe in God or nothing like the sort, then they are not pagans but atheists. (that's what i understood of what many people meant) and there are lots of diferences: first pagans have gods and rituals and they do not do whatever they want. and if you concider yourself pagan then you have not idea of what in this world is a pagan: you just call youself pagan to call the attention. |
"Paganism" itself, as in the wod, is NOT a religion. Pagenism refers to the religions that worship nature, and/or multiple gods. I myself am wicca, so I can't really say whether or not all pagen religions are the dame, but I can safely answer that PAGANISM is not a religion. It is a catagory of one.excuse me.
what is PAGAN ???
i dun understand it. somebody explain for me ^^
I'm Asian, and I really dun no this 'Pagan' refer to.
my english just barely
| doomz wrote: |
excuse me.
what is PAGAN ???
i dun understand it. somebody explain for me ^^
I'm Asian, and I really dun no this 'Pagan' refer to.
my english just barely |
I am a pagan. Pagan can have different meanings, different people use this term differently. Some christians for example consider all nonchristians to be pagan.
The origin of the term is from the ancient Rome and Latin. The word "paganus" was used for Romans who had not been converted to Christianity and practiced the Old Roman Religion or similar nonchristian religion of that era.
If I use the term, I mean any natural pre-christian European religion, such as a religion of the old Greece and Rome, Celts or Vikings + modern religions based on these traditions, like Wicca or Discordianism (neopaganisms). The European part is probably not so important, it may be my point of view (I am a European), there are certainly similar religions outside of Europe and they are probably worth to be called pagan. Paganism is usually polytheistic/pantheistic, very oriented towards the nature and has a free spirit in it (no dogmas).
There is a very good article on paganism at the site of Eric S. Raymond (the famous hacker - paganism is very popular among hackers):
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/paganism.txtPagan comes from the latin word paganus meaning someone that lives in the country rather then a town. When the Romans converted to Christianity (if you want Christians to respect you first respect them by spelling it out with capitals, don't use an X, show some respect) the first people they converted within their empire were the people living in towns since most towns had garrisons. Naturally the people living out in the country side away from the towns were slower to convert to the new religion. That is where Pagan comes from. It's also where Heathen comes from since the people that lived out on the heaths were also slower to convert. Generally the word pagan is used to describe anyone that does not follow any of the three middle eastern based religions born of Abraham (Christianity, Judeism, or Islam).
Now as for Wicca. According to some of the Brittish Traditians associated with Gerald Gardner, they are the only ones allowed to use the word Wicca describing their religion. I'm inclined to let them keep it.
I describe myself as an Irish Celtic Pagan because I practice a non-Christian religion based upon the old Celtic religions of Ireland. I'm not a Druid but more of a lay priest. My emphasis is on religion over magick, though I do practice magick as well though it is more simply described as "prayer with props". I don't "do what ever the hell I want" since I follow a higher code of conduct and honor that is even stricter then what I have observed from Christians (yes, I actually was a born again Southern Baptist before I grew up and got better). I've been doing this for over 15 years long before it was "cool". I believe that only through balance can earn true wisdom, therefore I do not place God over Goddess or vice versa, but worship both equally. I also believe that God did not create religion but religion was created by man so that he could try to understand God who is ultimately unknowable by common man. Thus all religion is influenced by culture and ultimately everyone worships the same devine force.
The most important advice I can offer to anyone that thinks they may want to be a Neo-Pagan it would be this. First study the different paths to see which one speaks directly to you, and don't assume that anyone that calls themselves a Pagan, Neo-pagan, or Wiccan has your best interests in mind (well, actually don't assume that of anybody).
Last edited by Tex_Arcana on Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
| Tex_Arcana wrote: |
| The most important advice I can offer to anyone that thinks they may want to be a Neo-Pagan it would be this. First study the different paths to see which one speaks directly to you, and don't assume that anyone that calls themselves a Pagan, Neo-pagan, or Wiccan has your best interests in mind (well, actually don't assume that of anybody). |
I would say that the best way is to follow your heart and soul and mind, not any particular preset path. To study is a good thing of course. Take whatever you want from any path you want. Add what you feel is right. And keep your eyes and mind open.Yeah, that's good too. Lot's of good advice out there. Just pick what sounds best. or even pick it all. "Only a fool follows what he is told about the universe, rather than what he has found for himself." - Kahal
i think that is what you are saying
I'd have to say that it is best to learn things for your self, but i would have to say sometimes it is good to hear someone elses views, becuase it sometimes can make you reconsider your own. Looks like I'm reviving an older thread here but rather than starting a new one....
The original question in the subject line of this thread is "Are there any pagans here?" So guess I'll answer that:
I'm a heathen. Some would say it's a sub-category of pagansim while others argue that it's in a separate category of its own. In modern usage "heathen" refers mainly to people practicing reconstructions of various pre-Christian germanic religions/world-views. There are many "demoninations", some of the more prominant being Asatru (old norse based), Theodism (old english based) and Irminsul (german based). I, myself, tend towards the more norse-based.
Nice to meet you all and I'm looking forward to talking with everyone in the future.
Take care,
Eyvind
I am an Odinist.
I guess that's pagan. Although pagan is kind of a derogetory term for Polytheist. Originally. Plus it is a very general term
I like to be more specific. Pagan to one person is different than to some others.
| Eyvind wrote: |
Looks like I'm reviving an older thread here but rather than starting a new one....
The original question in the subject line of this thread is "Are there any pagans here?" So guess I'll answer that:
I, myself, tend towards the more norse-based.
Nice to meet you all and I'm looking forward to talking with everyone in the future.
Take care,
Eyvind |
Hi Eyvind, I was just noticing that you are into Norse belief and it says your from Tokyo. ...... So just out of curiosity I was wondering what you thought about the Ah, My Goddess TV series since the three Goddesses are based on the Norse Norns or Fates Verdandis (renamed Belldandy for some strange reason), Urd and Sculd.Hi Tex,
Actually, I've never seen it. I'm guessing it's a Japanese show? I've been pretty busy recently so don't watch much Japanese TV. Is it any good?
Belldandy is about as close as you can get in Japanese to Verdandis. In Japaese there is no /v/ sound so /b/ is usually substituted and the closest to /r/ lies somewhere between English /l/ and /r/ so the two are often switched around.
Hey odinstag,
I agree. "Pagan" is a pretty general word. Personally, I prefer "heathen" to "pagan" but I feel both words have come a long way since their derogatory meanings.
Take care,
Eyvind
| Apolytes wrote: |
sorry i had to comment on one statement
| Quote: | | Over the course of the past few weeks, I have been on a riveting spiritual journey that has accelerated furiously. During this, I have been able to see where all the religions have common ground-- accepting God either knowingly or unknowingly. Whether or not they approach or discuss it in the same manner, it is the same God. |
You have not researched many religions...there are plenty in which the word God is not even discussed. No offense but i wouldnt continue your journey, a few weeks is not enough to really learn about the wealth of different concepts and ideas in relation to our existance. |
??? You say this person should not continue their journey because they haven't studied many religions and therefore don't know enough? Well, from my understanding, knowledge is gained through *continued* study. What's more, thanks to the Internet, knowledge can be gained at an accellerated rate. It is however important to try and find good sites. For a brief overview, Wikipedia is often a "quick fix" and one should continue from there.
A spiritual journey usually lasts an entire lifetime. Even Jesus said to "Keep knocking" and "Keep seeking". In any event, spiritual journeys are highly individualised. | Tex_Arcana wrote: |
| Pagan comes from the latin word paganus meaning someone that lives in the country rather then a town. |
It's good to see someone who's done research and taken the time to build up their knowledge. There are a lot of people, not just in the field of religion either, who get into something without knowing the history or background and continue like that, never building on the knowedge. that's when things start to break down again.
Many modern Christians are still unaware of the fact that the word pagan was used as described here by Tex_Arcana, nor are they aware of the fact that fairies, gnomes, goblins, and even the "wise old owl" are all of pagan origin. Most now know, or have heard, about the origins of Christmas and Easter.
In fact English culture in particular, and most European culture still has many expressions, superstitions and beliefs that are deeply rooted in ancient *pagan* customs and beliefs. Ireland, Scotland and Wales have a largely Celtic heritage, while England has a combination of Pictish, Celtic, Roman, Germanic and Nordic culture and beliefs rooted deeply in history.
I think it's safe to say that modern Christianity is nowhere close to what Jesus taught and is the result of the original mass forced conversion of 'historical pagans' in Europe (for largely political reasons), and the progressions of things from there.
Modern Paganism is also not the original, hence Neopaganism is a more correct term. Spiritual journeys are by nature an individual experience, and while they can be shared with others, they remain a personal experience that usually endure for a lifetime.
I wish all who seek, a happy, and successful journey! | Tiger wrote: |
It's good to see someone who's done research and taken the time to build up their knowledge. There are a lot of people, not just in the field of religion either, who get into something without knowing the history or background and continue like that, never building on the knowedge. that's when things start to break down again. |
Well, I have been a Neopagan for nearly twenty years, and was lucky enough to be part of a teaching Coven that while basicly was Irish Celtic was also pretty eclectic (Thanks Brenna). Knowledge and knowing how to use it is certainly the foundation of self empowerment. Probably why the people who want power over someone else prefer to keep them ignorant.
| Tiger wrote: |
I think it's safe to say that modern Christianity is nowhere close to what Jesus taught and is the result of the original mass forced conversion of 'historical pagans' in Europe (for largely political reasons), and the progressions of things from there. |
That's most likely true. I do tend to keep an eye on the more "fundementalist" religious leaders because religious fundementalism is one of the most dangerous aspects of society whether it's Moslems, Christians, Jews or any other religious sect. Sometimes I can't help thinking that men like Falwell, Roberts, or Phelps would most likely take the place of Caiaphas if Jesus were here in physical form.
| Tiger wrote: |
Modern Paganism is also not the original, hence Neopaganism is a more correct term. Spiritual journeys are by nature an individual experience, and while they can be shared with others, they remain a personal experience that usually endure for a lifetime.
I wish all who seek, a happy, and successful journey! |
This is proably the most confusing aspect of Neopaganism for people that follow the more mainstream religions. Neopaganism is more acurately an individual spiritual journey (even within the structure of a Coven) within the frame work of the old Pagan religions. Probably the scariest aspect to them is that we don't have a individual who acts as a conduit to God who tells us how we must act, think, and feel.
Bright Blessings on your own Journey TigerHey Tex,
| Tex Arcana wrote: |
This is proably the most confusing aspect of Neopaganism for people that follow the more mainstream religions. Neopaganism is more acurately an individual spiritual journey (even within the structure of a Coven) within the frame work of the old Pagan religions. Probably the scariest aspect to them is that we don't have a individual who acts as a conduit to God who tells us how we must act, think, and feel.
|
I think you've hit the nail right on the head here but I'd like to take that thought a little further. Neo-paganism, the way I see it, is a rather broad, catch-all term that includes too many "items" under its umbrella. People use the Neo-pagan lable for both spirituality AND religion, and as such to some folks it may seem varied and insubstantial. Varied it is, but of course, not insubstantial.
I think this is one reason many Heathens prefer to make a distinction between (Neo-)Paganism and Heathenism. It keeps Heathenism firmly in the more solid realm of religion, as opposed to the more ephemeral realm of (non-religious) spirituality.
While spirituality and religion are certainly connected I do think they are different. To me, spirituality is personal and flexible. It can exist without religion. Religion, on the other hand, is community oriented and rigid. I don't think it can exist (in any meaningful way) without spirituality.
And thinking about it in this way makes me wonder if many Neo-pagans use the word religion when what they really mean to describe is their own spirituality. This could explain some of the controversy over the "status" of Neo-Druidry/Druidism: is it a religion or a spiritual way of life?
Sorry, this might be getting off topic a bit... does anyone want to talk about this more? Or should I drop it?
Take care,
Eyvind Eyvind, You make a very good point about the differences between Spirituality and Religion. I have to agree with you that most pagan, neo-pagan and heathen paths are more spiritual than religious.
There was some debate earlier in this thread about the whole "do as you will" thing being the same as having no rules and just doing what you please.
It's not the same. Most neo-pagan faiths require self-acountability. There is no divine policeman to say what you can and can't do, you have to decide that for yourself, and take responsibility for your own actions and accept the consequences of those actions. In Wicca, for example, there is what is known as the three-fold law. The Three-fold Law basicaly states that whay you do returns to you three times over, so the good that you do, or the bad that you do will be repaid three times over.
In Asatru, there are guidelines to be followed known as the Nine Noble Virtues (please correct me if I am mistaken, my knowledge of the Norse paths is a bit sketchy). They are only guides, there is nothing to keep you from going against them except for your own sense of honor.
People who are seeking a spritual path usually aren't looking for permision to do hurtful things, if they were they'd go athiest and wouldn't have to worry about divine punishment. Most honest seekers already have a concience, and an inner guide to tell them what is right and what is wrong. What they are generally searching for is a belief system that resonates with that inner compass.
| Jinx wrote: |
| Eyvind, You make a very good point about the differences between Spirituality and Religion. I have to agree with you that most pagan, neo-pagan and heathen paths are more spiritual than religious. |
Cool. But, actually, my main point was that Heathenism (in the recon sense, not the Wicca-tru sense) stands out from "Neo-paganism" in that it is not simply a spirituality. It is a religion. In other words, many Heathens feel that Heathenism is much more religious than many of the streams associated with Neo-paganism and as such, they try to distance themselves from that label.
| Jinx wrote: |
There was some debate earlier in this thread about the whole "do as you will" thing being the same as having no rules and just doing what you please.
It's not the same. Most neo-pagan faiths require self-acountability. |
Here again, Heathenism differs. It requires (? reccomends ??) a kind of community-based accountability.
| Jinx wrote: |
| In Asatru, there are guidelines to be followed known as the Nine Noble Virtues (please correct me if I am mistaken, my knowledge of the Norse paths is a bit sketchy). They are only guides, there is nothing to keep you from going against them except for your own sense of honor. |
...and the sense of honour in the community. One of the worse punishments in Pre-Christian northern Europe was being "outlawed".
| Jinx wrote: |
| What they are generally searching for is a belief system that resonates with that inner compass. |
This is very well said, Jinx. I think you've made a great point here. For me this is exactly what it's all about.
Take care,
EyvindI'm not a Pagan, I don't know any Pagans, but have been told that in order to write fantasy literature, you should approach it from a Pagans point of view because you have more fun, and options.
**wanabee writer**
Good luck on the finding of your path. It was difficult, it's always difficult, but I feel the pleasure is in the discovery.
I only believe in right and wrong, any gods, devil, heaven, hell, demon, angels, live after death, spirit for me are resources that man has created to understand that he don't understand.
| Blu_Spykz wrote: |
I'm not a Pagan, I don't know any Pagans, but have been told that in order to write fantasy literature, you should approach it from a Pagans point of view because you have more fun, and options.
**wanabee writer** |
That's not necessarily true, but you do have to have an open mind and "create" the world and sprituality/religion and work within that framework. There are some very christian based works out there that are done well. | Shike wrote: |
| Blu_Spykz wrote: | I'm not a Pagan, I don't know any Pagans, but have been told that in order to write fantasy literature, you should approach it from a Pagans point of view because you have more fun, and options.
**wanabee writer** |
That's not necessarily true, but you do have to have an open mind and "create" the world and sprituality/religion and work within that framework. There are some very christian based works out there that are done well. |
I agree with Shike on that as a reader of sci/fi and fantasy. Perhaps the person that told you that was a big fan of Marion Zimmer Bradley or Mercedes Lackey (neither one admits to being a Pagan but tend to know a lot of Pagans).
At least if you want to learn to think like a Pagan you know where to start.
As for the Rede being a big old "do what ever you want" clause, well, I guess if your a shallow type person looking for permission to do what ever you want you can take it that way. However, I might point out that it stats out with "An it harm none" meaning that your first concideration should be "will my actions harm anyone, anything or myself" and "harm" is not just measured by physically hurting but is measured by all types of harm (psychic, emotional, spiritual, etc.). If taken in that context then the Rede is even more stingent then all the Old Testament restrictions put together.
Of course this is not a popular view with either Christians or Playgans (that is not a misspelling by the way).I myself am Wiccan. One of the biggest problems that I face with talking to Christians about it, is that the ones that I've talked to don't know enough about the belief, and only know what the church has told them. So I wind up having to explain out of a hole, rather than on a level playing field. Whichever path you choose, let it be right for you. One of the things that is said to me is, "So you have no rules?" Trying to explain to someone the Rede is difficult, when they don't understand. Fortunately, I have some very intelligent friends who were able to pick up on it, but in no way shape or form did I try to "convert" them, like they tried doing to me. Wiccans and other Pagan/Neo-Pagan beliefs do not seek others out to convert them, you must choose your own path. If it were me, I would think about it long and hard, and be ready to devote your entire life to it. There is a lot involved to each belief. As Tex_Arcana said, the Rede is not to be taken lightly. If you take it how I take it, then it is one of the most strict rules I've ever lived by. Everything I do, I think about, I make sure that it will not harm anyone, or myself. I was raised Roman Catholic, I feel as though a huge burden of guilt was lifted off of my shoulders, because now, I think about everything first, unlike what I was taught with my old church. I don't know if it's what every Catholic school teaches people, but my old church/school taught me that if I did something wrong, I'd just have to go talk to the Priest. Well that led me to believe that I could just do something, and then get out of trouble.
Ok so it seems I just rambled on. I didn't get much sleep last night. To give a quick overview:
Whichever path you choose, may it be the right one for you, and may you follow and devote yourself fully. No one can tell you which path is right for you, that decision must be made by you.
