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greeks?





leonblack
have anyone any idea what is happening in greece? On the line :
1) again new dimocracy (nea dimokratia) was voted for the country
2) 22% was voted for a fascist comma !!!
coolclay
Yea, its pretty darn scary. Specially the fact the the neonazi Golden Dawn party received 7% of the vote! http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/after-elections-greece-s-jews-come-to-terms-with-neo-nazi-triumph-1.428851?localLinksEnabled=false

I think we'll just have to wait until the dust settles to see exactly what happens. Hopefully it'll be for the better, and the Greeks don't elect some nut job.
catscratches
leonblack wrote:
have anyone any idea what is happening in greece?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government_debt_crisis
Josso
The EU happened.

I think it's most likely caused delibrately in order to trigger some geopolitical shift.


Quote:
Specially the fact the the neonazi Golden Dawn party received 7% of the vote!


Did you just source that using one source... a jewish media site?

lol


If it's true it's a bit like British people voting for BNP. It's often not because of race at all. It's because they have realised that every mainline party is corrupt or not going in a defined direction but have not realised yet that BNP is the same and is probably designed more as a honey trap for racists.

I would imagine the greeks voting for them is just because everything else feels hopeless basically.
ocalhoun
Josso wrote:

I would imagine the greeks voting for them is just because everything else feels hopeless basically.

Perhaps they were one of the few parties calling for separation from the EU?

(Not that I would know... it might be that they weren't calling for that, or it could be that many other parties also called for that... But it does strike me as something a nazi party would call for, and something that some Greeks would feel strongly enough about to influence their vote.)
coolclay
Quote:
Did you just source that using one source... a jewish media site?

Lol, I guess I did didn't I! They would be the most concerned after all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_%28Greece%29 there is that better! Laughing
Josso
ocalhoun wrote:
Josso wrote:

I would imagine the greeks voting for them is just because everything else feels hopeless basically.

Perhaps they were one of the few parties calling for separation from the EU?

(Not that I would know... it might be that they weren't calling for that, or it could be that many other parties also called for that... But it does strike me as something a nazi party would call for, and something that some Greeks would feel strongly enough about to influence their vote.)


Yeah you might be right there. The two main parties in the UK that want out are UK independence party and BNP - UKIP is like a friendly non-skinhead version of the BNP in many ways lol. BNP is a bit like the English Defence League in ideology. Unfortunately these are the only two major ones that I know of that want out of the EU so people just vote out of desperation.


coolclay wrote:
Lol, I guess I did didn't I! They would be the most concerned after all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_%28Greece%29 there is that better!


It would seem your figures are correct sir. Doesn't surprise me


wikipedia wrote:
In some neighbourhoods with big immigrant communities it even reached 20%.


I've seen worse localised figures than this here.
kaysch
Whatever happens in Greece is something I find really frustrating.

For many years a coalition of left-wing politicians and the economic elite of the country have co-operated to spend the very money the state chose not to collect from its tax-payers. Until today the shipping companies are exempted from their tax payments, guaranteed by the Greek constitutional law. This is left-wing policy at its best. Let's distribute the wealth we don't have.

Apart from that, it's apparently good centrist policy to socialize losses while privatizing gains of private enterprises. Otherwise how can anybody explain that all banks got bailed out on the backs of the taxpayers?

Right-wing policy has the easiest answer to all, be it in the UK, Greece or anywhere else. Let's find a scapegoat which we can blame for our own people's shortcomings. (The same logic goes for religious leaders like islamists, fundamentalist Christians and so forth...)

Politics really sucks. It's all really not about being left-wing, centrist or left-wing, but a simple power game.
coolclay
Amen!
gandalfthegrey
About 30% of Greeks who voted decided to let scare tactics rule them and voted for the Conservation, Pro-Austerity party New Democracy (who are largely to blame to the crisis in the first place). The reason the came in first is because the vote of a right-wing anti-austerity party collapsed. They are now likely to form government, because the party with the highest vote percentage gets 50 extra seats in parliament.

Just behind them, at 27% is the far-left anti-austerity party Syriza.



STUPID STUPID STUPID

Instead of being brave and refusing austerity imposed on by debtors (like Iceland or Argentina), the Greeks have decided to perpetuate the inevitable collapse of their economy (which is in a way needed before they can truly recover). As long as they have massive debt loads over their heads, their economy will never recover. The moment they have the courage to stand up and say no, is when things will start to get better.
kaysch
Massiv debt loads? If Greece got some financing to buy back their own debt, they would almost be debt-free. Here's my calculation, based on my own stupid investment in Greek bonds 2 years ago.

When Greece was still seen to have a real chance to recover (in summer 2010) I bought Greek bonds for 83 TEUR, the rate was around 100%. With the debt cut in March 2012 I received 15 TEUR in EFSF bonds (which is not Greece's debt) and newly issued Greek bonds. The face value of those new bonds was 26 TEUR but they were transferred into my portfolio at 23% = 6 TEUR. They now rate at 13% = 3 TEUR. In other words, their debt load is now at 3,5% of the original 83 TEUR. This is of course only valid if Greece or someone on their behalf buys back the debt right now.

So here is my view: For any rational Greek voter the election was not so much about reducing the debt load - it's already low as laid out above. It was neither the choice for or against austerity. After all, all Greek parties (supported by some EU players) suggested that the harsh austerity measures need softening and that some growth stimulus had to be added.

I could be wrong, but I think the motivation behind the Greek's last-minute mood swing was to vote for a prime minister which would be a tough negotiator but still acceptable to the other European governments. So both Tsipras and Michaloliakos were rather unacceptable.

In fact the Greek electoral behaviour reminds me of pre-1933 Germany. Also back then people voted more and more for extremist left-wing or right-wing parties. Centrist governments put too much stress on austerity, thus impeding economic recovery which was one of the reasons German democracy collapsed in the end. This vote looks a bit like a last chance granted to centrist parties.

Anyway, all in all I don't think it was stupid to vote for Samaras rather than Tsipras, sexy as that guy may look like (which in my view is unfortunately often the main reason to vote for a politician). Samaras has already given Merkel a hard time in the past, and he will probably continue to do so.
albiemer
leonblack wrote:
have anyone any idea what is happening in greece? On the line :
1) again new dimocracy (nea dimokratia) was voted for the country
2) 22% was voted for a fascist comma !!!

3)All i know thatgreece is a best country which Philosophers is came frm greece"
ocalhoun
albiemer wrote:
leonblack wrote:
have anyone any idea what is happening in greece? On the line :
1) again new dimocracy (nea dimokratia) was voted for the country
2) 22% was voted for a fascist comma !!!

3)All i know thatgreece is a best country which Philosophers is came frm greece"

While on the surface, this post seems irrelevant... I think the nationalist sentiment behind it is very pertinent to the problem of fascists being voted for...
deanhills
albiemer wrote:
leonblack wrote:
have anyone any idea what is happening in greece? On the line :
1) again new dimocracy (nea dimokratia) was voted for the country
2) 22% was voted for a fascist comma !!!

3)All i know thatgreece is a best country which Philosophers is came frm greece"
I guess criteria these day is more of economics than philosophy. Times have changed, and are dictated more by European greed than philosophy.
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