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First... Happy Easter, everyone!
Second... I have a question: The palm branches don't seem to fit. I have observed lots of Easter Traditions, but this one strikes me as having an old hint of voodoo warding off spirits, and it does not fit the usual practice of modern christians, or the artifact collection done for saints of the older churches/religions. More modern christianity does not have artifacts, icons, or items with the power to ward off spirits. This is more an observance of Catholicism, and Orthodox churches. I believe the Orthodox burn lavender for some reason that is unknown to me, but I observed happen in an Orthodox church. The priest was covering people in smoke. I guess I'm curious about that too: is that more spirit warding?
Please, I don't want to discuss if this is right or wrong, or if one way of doing things is better than another. I simply want to discuss this Easter tradition as it appears to not fit the mold, or any definition of christianity as I know it. This seems to be a much older tradition that has that became observed as part of new religious ideals. Maybe it shows the evolution of religious ideals in the minds of man? I'm just looking for any information around the palm branch tradition of the Catholic church.
I'll try to explain what I remember from Sunday school (I used to be a good Catholic girl, I even sang in the choir haha).
Here in Brazil it's called "Branches Sunday". because the word we use here ("ramos") means literally "branches". This Sunday is just before the Easter Sunday and it's related to Jesus returning after spending 40 days (the "Lent" period) in the desert being tempted by the Devil. A lot of Catholics like to make sacrifices during this time, two friends of mine gave up eating things they really like during theses days to remember the sacrifice Jesus made in the desert, being 40 days and nights without water or food. The palm leaves were used to cover the path as Jesus entered in Jerusalem, which was an honor reserved to big figures. To the Jews, palm leaves are a symbol of triumph and victory.
I went to look for some references in wikipedia and I found that in other countries the festivity is called "Palm Sunday" or even "Branch Sunday". It differs slightly among the countries, but it's almost the same in every place. They call it also "Triumphal entry into Jerusalem".
Oh, Happy Easter everybody. 
Vanilla has covered it pretty well there. It commemorates the 'triumphal' entry of Jesus and the apostles into Jerusalem where they were apparently greeted extravagently by a large crowd.
There is, unfortunately for Christians, every reason to believe that this is an invention. No historian of the period records any such triumphal entry and it would certainly have been mentioned in Roman papers of the time had it actually occurred.
My own take on this is that it is part of the general 'mythologising' that the NT goes in for. In this case it is important that Jesus have a triumphal entry before his crucifiction because this correlates (at least to some theologians) with Old Testament 'prophecies'.
You've given me some really cool stuff to think about, so thanks Vanilla, and Bikerman! I need to do some research here... what I am looking at is the palm branch was already a tradition before Jesus time, and it proves it if it was an observed ritual during his time. This, however, means we need to go further back into history to find out where else the palm branch comes into play, because this appears to be completely from outside the realm of christianity. I just like learning about the origins of most everything, and you guys have given me some good things to think about, but it also helps fan the flames of research here because I have more points of interest to add to the idea when researching it.
I read before that it's used to ward off evil spirits, now I've got the "triumphant entry" among other things to discover. Thanks... I'll try to keep updating this as I find more info... I can't do it now, however, and that's sad.
Ah, you should have said...
the Palm is a Hebrew symbol. It generally denotes 'victory' or 'triumph' - often used to greet returning military leaders after successful campaigns.
The NT therefore is consistent in applying the symbol, as it would be if my hypothesis is correct (modesty forbids me saying it is absolutely damn well correct, but it is  )
This thread has mysteriously reminded me of Monty Python's the life of Brian. The question and answer from that movie: "Well, how do you know he's a king then?" to which the answer comes "He hasn't got s*** all over him!"
If you are marching into a town before asphalt and cement roads, then you usually had to go through a few highly trafficked areas which would undoubtedly be muddy, even with cobble stones or other such roman road materials in place. The palm leaves would make it so a nicely dressed group of people could make their way into town without getting mud all over them. Not having mud on you was definitely a sign of wealth, and still is to some degree. I knew this, but didn't make the connection.
The statement about palm warding off spirits in wiki on Holy Week really threw me. The act of burning palm is a different thing then laying it down to walk on, but I see how they could be related. The iconography of the palm easily symbolizing the arrival of a king in it's picture form, for instance, and how they probably burned tons and tons of muddy palm after the king left to get rid of it. If you smash these concepts together over a little time, get to a point where actually laying down palm is not feasible, or we don't have kings, and you get burning a little palm for the sensory experience symbolizing your observance of the tradition? Does that work for you guys? It's a stretch, but possible.
So you can't have Jesus without palm, and palm wasn't laid down for Jesus... hmmmm. You'd think they'd drop the prophecy instead of trying to make the history books match up to prophecy. Well, when you are the government, and you have people to control I guess exceptions must be made. Constantine? Do we have him to thank for this update?
Not really. The account is in all 4 canonical gospels, though, of course, they differ.
John in the only one with Palms being laid - the others have the crowd laying their cloaks on the floor for him to ride over.
One would expect all the gospels to mention this 'episode' since it is deeply symbolic and would have to have happened even if it didn't
So many different things come together on this idea... laying down of cloaks ... I had forgotten about that too!
My mind was exploring the idea and I can't get this image out of my head, kind of like the Monty Python scene mentioned earlier, but this time at the city gates where one peasant says to another...
"Dude, how'd you get so muddy?" and the other guy says "Dude, look at these cart tracks! The king's cart rode right over my cloak today on his way into the city! I should get top dollar for this on the eBay... ah, at the market!"
Here I am trying to stay serious, because it is Easter Weekend, and I can't even keep myself straight. Ah, it must be a good day! I hope everyone is enjoying warmth and birds singing, and has a great day!
Funny you mention voodoo. Those palm leaves are usually designed to look like a cross, some of them are brown. So when you look at them from afar, they kinda look like voodoo dolls stuck above the door. At least for me they do. I saw this house where they wrote some latin scribblings on the door below the palm leaves, can't remember what the words says, probably they're spells to ward off spirits. They really look like black magic s***, I swear. Although I grow up in a typical Filipino Catholic family, I don't know what those symbolisms stand for. The older ones probably know but not people of my age.
| loremar wrote: | | Funny you mention voodoo. Those palm leaves are usually designed to look like a cross, some of them are brown. So when you look at them from afar, they kinda look like voodoo dolls stuck above the door. At least for me they do. I saw this house where they wrote some latin scribblings on the door below the palm leaves, can't remember what the words says, probably they're spells to ward off spirits. They really look like black magic s***, I swear. Although I grow up in a typical Filipino Catholic family, I don't know what those symbolisms stand for. The older ones probably know but not people of my age. |
on symbols, spells, and runes:
I find mixing practices unnerving for some strange reason. I think my animosity comes from subconsciously recognizing someone who is willing to do anything to alleviate their fear. When you start mixing religious practice I think you run the real risk of loosing yourself, and loosing your grip on reality, and you become a danger to yourself and others. One becomes fanatical about things they can neither see, nor hear, nor touch, and it becomes a very sadomasochistic, very quickly. So worried about the after life that one becomes self destructive to their actual life -- there has to be a psychology term for this by now.
We cannot live without fear, as we've grown up with it. Fear keeps us alive, and helps us move when we need to, or stand still when we shouldn't move. If you don't fear death, and you don't fear hell, then life can be quiet liberated.
| Bikerman wrote: | Not really. The account is in all 4 canonical gospels, though, of course, they differ.
John in the only one with Palms being laid - the others have the crowd laying their cloaks on the floor for him to ride over.
One would expect all the gospels to mention this 'episode' since it is deeply symbolic and would have to have happened even if it didn't |
It's not about symbolism. It was fulfillment of prophecy. That's what the prophesied one was supposed to do - he was supposed to be a great king like David, and lead the Jews to a golden age. The entry into Jerusalem was supposed to be literally riding in as a king, in celebration of the military conquest of Judea's enemies. That was part of the reason mainstream Jews didn't accept Jesus as the legitimate prophesied one: they said if the real prophesied one had arrived, he would be sitting on the throne of an independent Judea while Judea's enemies were running away in retreat licking their wounds.
Didn't happen, of course, so the prophesies got retconned into this "symbolic" entry into Jerusalem... "like" a victorious king, although, obviously, not literally one (because the conspicuous absence of the victories - and the king - were problematic, in retrospect).
That's why Palm Sunday is so important, and arguably the most important Christian holiday, possibly second only to Easter Sunday itself - the actual day of resurrection. (Christmas doesn't even really chart.) It was the day that prophecy was fulfilled (in theory), and the prophesied king (such as he was) made his triumphant entry (more or less) into Jerusalem. This was the big thing; the climax; the glorious crowning moment of the story of the prophesied great king. This was what the point of "the greatest story ever told" was supposed to be. This was supposed to be the "win condition". This is why it's one of the only events mentioned in all four gospels.
(It's actually rather funny how different the alleged fulfillment of prophecy was from the prophecy itself. The prophecy was about a great king - in the line of David - who would come and free the Jews from their oppressors, take the throne and lead Jerusalem into a golden age. What they actually got - according to Christianity - a broke-ass itinerant hippie carpenter who snuck into Jerusalem under the radar of the real king, stayed three days before getting arrested for sedition, then executed in the most brutal and humiliating way possible. Hardly surprising that this version of the fulfillment of prophecy didn't sell well with mainstream Jews.)
Yes, 'smbolic' was a bad choice of word, but I wouldn't discount it entirely. Certainly I agree that the main consideration would have to be fullfilling the OT prophecy* but the symbolism is important also. The whole scene has several symbolic elements - riding a donkey, people covering the path - Kings rode donkeys when they wanted to express a wish for peace (riding a Horse into enemy terrain symbolised war, riding a donkey was a way of deferring to the authority of the other person). Covering the path also had much precedent outside the bible.
*Zechariah 9:9 - "Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.”
I like it! Indi... what's cooking! thanks for joining!
I forgot something about palm leaves, since you talked about voodoo. This is more like a curiosity. Here in Brazil we got these religions that are a mix between Catholic Church and African Deities like Umbanda, Quimbanda e Candomblé. They can be correlated with the Haitian Voodoo or with the Cuban Santería, since they got almost the same deities. In these religions, palm leaves symbolizes some of their Gods (like Nanã Buruku) and are used as an offer to them.
See the thing she carries? It is made with dry palm leaves + seashells.
Hmmmm.... very interesting. You have given me much to look up of which I was not previously aware. This is a good thread! Thanks!
Something reminded me of this thread today, and I had to write it down before I sleep because it illustrates beautifully why this kind of information is important, because it's our roots, it's tradition, it's voodoo science before there were any peer reviewed science journals, or internet databases of calculations and algorithms which you can quickly source into a project to quickly do proof of concepts and preliminary studies. Before education was rituals pasted from person to person and observation, be they religious or voodoo magic, and what you observed, then and now, was largely based on what you were afraid of. Haha, worship the god that can kill you with bears, famine, frogs, plague, fire, and water theory.
I digress... the item that came up was like this warding off of evil spirits with smoldering palm leaves, it was once a practice to put molding bread on open cuts because this too would ward off the evil spirits and promote healing. Little did they know that sometimes they were able to give themselves an effective regimen of antibiotics (penicillin) and this would fight off infection. In this spirit all traditions and rituals should be evaluated, and most, within reason, can be harmlessly observed, but we've reached an age where reason should dictate our actions, even if your reason is to act irrationally.
It's funny you mention houses near you, loremar, with practices that they observed in accordance with the rituals your family was observing, but they had gone the extra mile to write all the inscriptions, and cross all the "t"s and dot all the "i"s to make sure that they were doing it just right, and others don't observe all the intricate details. I just used to wonder all at the work people were doing and they seem to get the same result that I got from the situation, except I hated it because sometimes people around me would start to over work themselves on these silly traditions, and then it would make my life more difficult, so I just wanted it all to stop. I've always felt that you are doing it wrong if you put in twice the effort of everyone else around you, and you get the same result as everyone else.
I do not practice, but I am wildly curious about these practices and I almost never try to pass judgement on the people who do practice rituals as long as they don't pass judgement on me for not practicing. I figure this is more than fair trade, this is freedom.
I also don't know if you guys have watched Medicine Men gone wild on Netflix but there is this really awesome realization moment for one of the high and mighty Doctor twins, they are very good cop/bad cop when it comes to traditional medicine, and the bad cop, who is always down on traditional medicine was forced to reconcile when he examined out many of the treatments that he wanted to perform on the patient could actually be traced back to voodoo medicine, or likely could, or were eerily similar. He had been upset that the voodoo doctors treatments did not seem to be addressing the patients problems, and later, when the voodoo doctor became concerned his treatments weren't working and he was open to the suggestion of the visiting foreign doctors and their modern techniques, that's when the American doctor was able to examine the patient and he observed his own actions and their similarity to the witch doctors methods, and the realization of how far modern medicine has come, but how far we still have to go, really set in. We are not so different from our hunter gatherer ancestors.
I do hope everyone had a happy Easter!
This is weird. I always thought Palm Sunday is the day after Black Saturday and is the day of resurrection. Now I just learned or just realized it's actually Easter. What? I'm so confused. I always watch it shown in TV as Palm Sunday. Did I just missed something? 
| loremar wrote: | | Did I just missed something? |
You seem like a kind, well spoken person, and I've enjoyed your comments. This is just a little self doubt peaking through, maybe, because of something that was said, but we all miss lots of things, a lot of the time. I trust that you haven't missed anything important, but as humans we're missing almost everything that could be considered the big picture right now. Mathematically, anything that we currently know is actually still very insignificant to what can possibly be known, so if you tried to put this on a percentage scale mankind would effectively have only ever known 0% of what it's possible to know.
The reality I see is that dates in history have nothing to do with the Earths ability to make another rotation around the sun, so annual observance of the significance of something really is dictated by man, on humankind's calendar, so I see the real freedom is to be able to observe any date of historical significance, on any day of the week that you so choose to set aside and observe it. We as humans currently have a lot of other bigger fish to fry then to argue semantics of how to properly observe ANY historical event. I just hope everyone had a good Easter weekend! That was the extent of it for me, I did not observe any historical events during a peaceful time of relaxing and doing things that I wanted to get done around the house. Apparently a lot of people around the globe were making a big fuss about historical events this weekend, but I had to take a little retreat to relax so I paid them no mind. To me no one has ever been able to make sense of any of the details concerning Jesus and the resurrection, and although I note them as being historically significant, I do not feel any need to observe the events in detail each year, year after year. I feel this too is a form of self-flagellation in which I do not indulge. If I feel the need to observe an event in history, I certainly don't hesitate, and I don't expect anyone else to, but the beauty of this would be that I observe it when I observe it, not when other's dictate that I should -- that is slavery, to man, to an ideal, or simply my own prison.
Jesus was said to have had a large amount of sympathy... maybe try trusting that he does not mind! Honestly, most people never think about his perspective. IF I ever met Jesus, and that's a monumental IF, then I certainly would not want any crosses on me, no matter how small. IF I was talking to Jesus I feel there would be more pressing matters to discuss, and we could really have a lot of fun discussing nature and this wonderfully complex world. The cross is probably not as fun a symbol to him as it appears to be for some people. You'd think the fishing net or wood plain would have much more iconic significance, but the cross being used this wide spread really does show that we have not, and may not ever, get rid of this sick obsession with death and tools of death, and the imagery of spirits and demons. I really find it distasteful.
| IceCreamTruck wrote: | | IF I ever met Jesus, and that's a monumental IF, then I certainly would not want any crosses on me, no matter how small. IF I was talking to Jesus I.... |
I can only imagine:
JESUS: Hey, I heard you don't believe I resurrected from the dead.
ME: No, I don't. The odds of returning from the dead is unlikely.
JESUS: Well, then let me show you some proof. (Reach out his hands).
ME: You punctured your hands just to prove you're not Jesus Christ's impostor?
(At the back of my head I'm thinking, "This must be one of those crazy guys who nailed themselves in the cross for penance*. And now he thinks he's Jesus Christ?")
*In some places in the Philippines, it's a common practice during holy week for some people to reenact Jesus Christ's crucifixion as a form of penance. Sometimes, actors are literally nailed on the cross.
Yes, even if Jesus is standing right here you can make the argument that it's unlikely that he resurrected from the dead. The argument remains sound whether or not he is actually alive.
I see that you understand that, and that's good.
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