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Is it safe in Philosophy and Religion?






Is it safe in Philosophy and Religion?
Yes... it's not safe
14%
 14%  [ 1 ]
No... it's not safe
28%
 28%  [ 2 ]
Maybe... it's not safe
57%
 57%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 7

IceCreamTruck
Is it safe in Philosophy and Religion?

I feel it's a fair question because I have peaked in there before, and not come out for months! Smile

Do I dare peak again? lol
IceCreamTruck
If you hold out your thumb, and hold it just right... over Philosophy and Religion some people report seeing other forums on frihost, with names like Portuguese, but these are unconfirmed reports! Smile
IceCreamTruck
Nope... it's there! -- Portuguese
ankitdatashn
Umm... I am finding it difficult to comprehend what the thread asks for... What is safe in Philosophy and Religion?

Pardon if I am appearing dumb over here!! Very Happy
loremar
Quote:
Is it safe in Philosophy and Religion?
Yes... it's not safe
No... it's not safe
Maybe... it's not safe

View Results

From the choices above, I guess I have no choice but agree, LOL.

If you ever come out alive from there, always check if your head is still attached to your neck. Wink
ocalhoun
IceCreamTruck wrote:
Nope... it's there! -- Portuguese

Now that is the dangerous place.
...Pretty sure it has been completely unmoderated for over a year... the old Portuguese mod hasn't been seen in a long time, and no new ones have been appointed.



And... P&R is as safe as ever, I guess...
If you go there and say "this is what I think" your post will probably be torn up by the replies.
If you go there and say "I think this because (bad reason)" your reasons will be exposed for being as bad as they are.
If you go there and say "I think this because (good reason)" you might actually get to enjoy a good debate over who's reasons are better.

So... I guess as long as you're okay with being argued with and okay with 'that's just what I believe' not being accepted as a good reason to hold a belief... then it's safe.
deanhills
IceCreamTruck wrote:
Is it safe in Philosophy and Religion?

I feel it's a fair question because I have peaked in there before, and not come out for months! Smile

Do I dare peak again? lol

LOL ICT .... I'd say you're definitely safe! Primarily because you are backing the right party line. Once you're in the Phil&Rel Forum however you would have to mind your P's and Q's as "I" in particular will be combing through your posts very carefully. And challenge you if necessary in lengthy quote by quote posts. I'd say you'd rise to that challenge however as you have done in the past. Whether it will be enjoyable is of course another story. What could be a nice idea is to have the equivalent of your "Hijack" thread as a Phil&Rel thread in the General Chat Forum. Sort of a humorous twist on it. Wait a minute, this is probably exactly what you are trying to do with this thread?

Welcome back! ALWAYS nice to see you posting in any Forum of Frihost's. Smile
IceCreamTruck
Awwwwe... you guys are awesome! It's fun to be back, but I think I am going to keep to a new strategy -- avoid P&R until I'm settled back in and can accomplish more. This topic is really just meant to be humorous more than anything else. Personally I think the moderators do a good job of keeping up with the pace here, so I wouldn't say any forum is "unsafe" but find it ironic, in my sick sense of humor, to inquire about the safety of P&R because I've participated in mind altering threads there before, and eventually... may be a while... I will again.

You guys never cease to amaze me, and make me realize that I should have spent more time here over the last year, but life isn't always as easy as it's going for me now.

It's a pleasure to enjoy your company again!
IceCreamTruck
ankitdatashn wrote:
Umm... I am finding it difficult to comprehend what the thread asks for... What is safe in Philosophy and Religion?

Pardon if I am appearing dumb over here!! Very Happy


No, you aren't crazy -- it's just me! Smile
IceCreamTruck
deanhills wrote:
Wait a minute, this is probably exactly what you are trying to do with this thread? Smile


Busted! More than setting dominoes up and watching them fall in order, I like to set things up, and watch beautiful, interesting chaos result. It's the twisted psychology of Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg from the Fifth Element.

Quote:

Zorg: Life, which you so nobly serve, comes from destruction, disorder and chaos. Now take this empty glass. Here it is: peaceful, serene, boring. But if it is destroyed
[Pushes the glass off the table. It shatter on the floor, and several small machines come out to clean it up]
Zorg: Look at all these little things! So busy now! Notice how each one is useful. A lovely ballet ensues, so full of form and color. Now, think about all those people that created them. Technicians, engineers, hundreds of people, who will be able to feed their children tonight, so those children can grow up big and strong and have little teeny children of their own, and so on and so forth. Thus, adding to the great chain of life. You see, father, by causing a little destruction, I am in fact encouraging life. In reality, you and I are in the same business.


Unorthodox -- yes! But I feel discussing a forum as a topic in general chat isn't breaking any rules, and has probably happened a few times. I did, however, post this instead of reading any of the P&R forum, so one could point out that is evidence of my own hesitation in approaching that forum -- hesitation only lead to full blown DOS on my part -- so what was I scared of? It's kind of one of those "those who are already in the pool can't see the danger" scenarios. I still get to chat with all of you here which is awesome... but maybe I'm just hiding behind the blinder that excessive religious over tones in posts here will eventually be directed to the provided forum. Wow, this is getting deep! Almost has an overtone of a James Earl Jones type narrator voice in my head telling me that "You pick your own path in life" in a ".. This ... is CNN" kind of way so I'm going to park this fun train right there, and just say to completely follow me, and understand everything is much more difficult than just having fun with me in the moment.

Ocal, Dean! Thanks for joining the discussion! Always good to reconnect with you two! I'll also enjoy following the new faces that post here! Smile
Ankhanu
If you set foot in P&R, I will punch you so hard, so help me god...

Wink

Welcome back, dude.
deanhills
Ankhanu wrote:
so help me god...

Wink
A conversion in process ..... Cool Twisted Evil Angel
Ankhanu
I prefer the word "reversion" Very Happy
IceCreamTruck
Ankhanu wrote:
If you set foot in P&R, I will punch you so hard, so help me god...

Wink

Welcome back, dude.


Ahha! Ankhanu, how are you doing? It's been fun to see a lot of familiar names popping up quickly!

Your comment makes me laugh so hard! Smile
Ankhanu
Doin well, man. Finished up my MSc, working on publishing an article, looking for work using my new degree and makin a little music. Things aren't perfect, but thy're not bad, ya know? Glad you've sorted through some of your stuff to pop by again.
IceCreamTruck
Hey, if you have any links share them up, cause I love good music!

It's good to chat with you as well!

<--- This one must sleep now.
sudipbanerjee
what is the meaning of this thread?
IceCreamTruck
sudipbanerjee wrote:
what is the meaning of this thread?


It's so that I can meet you, and say hello! -- Hello! -- Smile

Actually it's to debate the very existence of the Philosophy and Religion in General .. frihost humor - pay it no mind! Now you're supposed to laugh so hard that you realize our differences aren't what separates us, but what establishes our humanity as awkward beings who are, for what it's worth, isolated in our solar system, isolated in the galaxy, and ultimately isolated in the universe.

Honestly, from that angle, the P&R forum looks kind of small and insignificant... I'm going to march right in there and read the whole thing, then I'm going to read some more, and read some more... and gosh.. this is already getting kinda exhausting! Smile Maybe I'll go read it tomorrow! Wish me luck! Twisted Evil
deanhills
IceCreamTruck wrote:
Honestly, from that angle, the P&R forum looks kind of small and insignificant... I'm going to march right in there and read the whole thing, then I'm going to read some more, and read some more... and gosh.. this is already getting kinda exhausting! Smile Maybe I'll go read it tomorrow! Wish me luck! Twisted Evil
Awesome! Maybe you'll find my missing Avatar there. I'm almost certain I saw it in the Phil&Rel Forum November last year when I was doing some reading of P&R threads, and for the life of me just can't remember where I saw it. Brick wall It was a post that was hidden away at the tail end of a longish thread. I think this Avatar is in the process of seriously challenging my mental stability .... hehe ....

I was wondering whether I could go find a guru/hypnotist/meditation specialist so he/she could guide me through the Phil&Rel Forum and all the threads I've checked out during November of last year. Ha! Maybe I could try it myself as well. Twisted Evil

IceCreamTruck
deanhills wrote:
IceCreamTruck wrote:
Honestly, from that angle, the P&R forum looks kind of small and insignificant... I'm going to march right in there and read the whole thing, then I'm going to read some more, and read some more... and gosh.. this is already getting kinda exhausting! Smile Maybe I'll go read it tomorrow! Wish me luck! Twisted Evil
Awesome! Maybe you'll find my missing Avatar there. I'm almost certain I saw it in the Phil&Rel Forum November last year when I was doing some reading of P&R threads, and for the life of me just can't remember where I saw it. Brick wall It was a post that was hidden away at the tail end of a longish thread. I think this Avatar is in the process of challenging my mental stability .... hehe ....

I was wondering whether I could go find a hypnotist so he/she could guide me through the Phil&Rel Forum and all the threads I've checked out during November of last year. Twisted Evil


I think you might be the only person who really, and truely understands this thread, even though some great people sure seem to be trying to figure out what in tarnations I'm getting on about! It's definitely a "you can't see the danger if your in the pool" kind of thing, but what's scary is some can't see the danger from the outside either, so I could easily end up in the pool if I venture too close. I dunno ... I did promise to try to read it tomorrow... gosh! Smile
deanhills
IceCreamTruck wrote:
but what's scary is some can't see the danger from the outside either, so I could easily end up in the pool if I venture too close.
Exactly. I guess the uninitiated need to be warned: Do NOT go in there .... !!!!!! Twisted Evil

IceCreamTruck
deanhills wrote:
Do NOT go in there .... !!!!!! Twisted Evil


* Like * Jim Carey makes me laugh a lot! Lair-Lair was one of the best movie going experiences I've ever had! Did I tell you that story?
deanhills
IceCreamTruck wrote:
Did I tell you that story?
I don't think so.
Ankhanu
Dean - did you post the avatar IN the thread (as in in a post)? Or are you looking for it in your avatar space? If it's in the post, it's likely still wherever you hosted it (for example, I have all my avatars in my photobucket account). If in your avatar space, it's been replaced with your current one, and no amount of searching through the forum will find it.

ICT - We've got some outdated recordings here on our Reverb Nation page. There's a video there from an acoustic set, but here is a video from a set about 2 weeks ago in a bar.
We're playing a set tonight; we'll see if any recordings come from it, and we're in the process of rerecording all our material for a full length CD; I think they started tracking drums while I was out of town last week.
deanhills
Ankhanu wrote:
Dean - did you post the avatar IN the thread (as in in a post)? Or are you looking for it in your avatar space? If it's in the post, it's likely still wherever you hosted it (for example, I have all my avatars in my photobucket account). If in your avatar space, it's been replaced with your current one, and no amount of searching through the forum will find it.
No Ankhanu. I'm participating in Peterssidan's Avatar contest. I've found 49 out of the 50 avatars with one to go. I know what it is as I've seen it before ..... but just can't seem to find it. Sort of knocking me for six. Twisted Evil
Ankhanu
deanhills wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:
Dean - did you post the avatar IN the thread (as in in a post)? Or are you looking for it in your avatar space? If it's in the post, it's likely still wherever you hosted it (for example, I have all my avatars in my photobucket account). If in your avatar space, it's been replaced with your current one, and no amount of searching through the forum will find it.
No Ankhanu. I'm participating in Peterssidan's Avatar contest. I've found 49 out of the 50 avatars with one to go. I know what it is as I've seen it before ..... but just can't seem to find it. Sort of knocking me for six. Twisted Evil

Ah. I should check out the contest rules Razz
TheLimey
Safe in Religion...nope.... You really got to be careful what you are looking at in Religion as sometimes you can really get messed up and start doing things that none of the "holy scriptures" refer to ie, the Bible, Koran, Baghvad Gita etc. If you want to start looking into Religion be careful what you are looking into and do not do anything that just is stupid. eg, the Bible does not ask for you to make the leader of a Church a stinking rich person, however you may end up giving tonnes of Money to the place as you are told it is right.

I do not hate Religion or Religious People, JUST BE CAREFUL PEOPLE
IceCreamTruck
TheLimey wrote:
Safe in Religion...nope.... You really got to be careful what you are looking at in Religion as sometimes you can really get messed up and start doing things that none of the "holy scriptures" refer to ie, the Bible, Koran, Baghvad Gita etc. If you want to start looking into Religion be careful what you are looking into and do not do anything that just is stupid. eg, the Bible does not ask for you to make the leader of a Church a stinking rich person, however you may end up giving tonnes of Money to the place as you are told it is right.

I do not hate Religion or Religious People, JUST BE CAREFUL PEOPLE


Thanks for stepping up and joining the convo, however, you should know that I am stand-fast atheist. I believe the reality of our situation goes beyond some of our wildest dreams, but all, and I do mean ALL, religion is the creation of man. It is born of our selfish want to feel important or valuable, and to give meaning to something we don't fully understand the meaning of -- life. If we can't figure out all the answers most people seem to be content just dividing our perception of each other into groups: those who think or believe like I do, and those that don't. Somehow in the separating of perception into "haves" and "have-nots" we start to accept that internally you are a "have", and this makes you feel good. Personally I just choose to feel good in the excitement of not knowing for sure what's going on, and that works for me and has made me realize anything else is just ego talking, and me being insecure. I'm secure in two facts: this world is very exciting, and doesn't resemble any of the models built in religious texts.

When I grew up playing on the play ground in school some kids that weren't very secure in themselves used to try to make themselves feel better, and me worse, by pointing out something they had that I did not, could not have, or a club that I could join if I paid my dues. Now the only time I run into this is from religious people, and I find that very immature. It's a poor system of feeling good about yourself, and look at the things that you are forced to believe -- really look at them. It's a bunch of crazy nonsense, and starting to believe it is like starting to work for the mafia. Pretty soon you are in over your head.

Honestly, I think religion needs to leave the picture if we are really going to see this environment we are in! Religion clouds the picture, and has us accepting things that should be questioned and investigated.

I do think these debates should be in P&R forum, but they often get heated and turn into huge texts of dizzying facts, banter, and opinion. I was kinda trying to be funny in asking if P&R was safe. Smile

Thanks again for your input! I liked what you said.
deanhills
IceCreamTruck wrote:
When I grew up playing on the play ground in school some kids that weren't very secure in themselves used to try to make themselves feel better, and me worse, by pointing out something they had that I did not, could not have, or a club that I could join if I paid my dues. Now the only time I run into this is from religious people, and I find that very immature. It's a poor system of feeling good about yourself, and look at the things that you are forced to believe -- really look at them. It's a bunch of crazy nonsense, and starting to believe it is like starting to work for the mafia. Pretty soon you are in over your head.
I went exactly through what you went and I was religious. Who knows, the insecurity could have been our own mirrored on others Or I'd rather look at it as having being confused by people whom I did not quite understand why they did what they did, i.e. acting hurtful to others. So in order to understand our differences we label the cause of the hurt in certain ways that in the end makes less of ourselves. It's almost like a mirror effect, i.e. looking into an abyss and creating one in ourselves as a consequence instead of learning from the experience and moving beyond it.

It's probably a bit of a cliche, but I'm almost certain that the shortcoming that we see in others are really our own. People are people regardless of what they believe in or don't believe in. My dad was an atheist, so were all of the members of his family, and I always had the romantic notion of them being above all of petty squabbles as they had not been religious. Until I got to Frihost. I then realized that my dad having been as large in his thinking as he had been had nothing to do with religion or atheism. More about him as a person that had not been particularly bothered by any of the two to the extent I've seen here. It's when one rises above the differences of the two and away from pointing fingers that one really gets to the mature side of things. Those are the people I really admire, i.e. people with completely open and uncluttered minds. Absence of prejudice has to be the key.
IceCreamTruck
deanhills wrote:
IceCreamTruck wrote:
When I grew up playing on the play ground in school some kids that weren't very secure in themselves used to try to make themselves feel better, and me worse, by pointing out something they had that I did not, could not have, or a club that I could join if I paid my dues. Now the only time I run into this is from religious people, and I find that very immature. It's a poor system of feeling good about yourself, and look at the things that you are forced to believe -- really look at them. It's a bunch of crazy nonsense, and starting to believe it is like starting to work for the mafia. Pretty soon you are in over your head.
I went exactly through what you went and I was religious. Who knows, the insecurity could have been our own mirrored on others Or I'd rather look at it as having being confused by people whom I did not quite understand why they did what they did, i.e. acting hurtful to others. So in order to understand our differences we label the cause of the hurt in certain ways that in the end makes less of ourselves. It's almost like a mirror effect, i.e. looking into an abyss and creating one in ourselves as a consequence instead of learning from the experience and moving beyond it.

It's probably a bit of a cliche, but I'm almost certain that the shortcoming that we see in others are really our own. People are people regardless of what they believe in or don't believe in. My dad was an atheist, so were all of the members of his family, and I always had the romantic notion of them being above all of petty squabbles as they had not been religious. Until I got to Frihost. I then realized that my dad having been as large in his thinking as he had been had nothing to do with religion or atheism. More about him as a person that had not been particularly bothered by any of the two to the extent I've seen here. It's when one rises above the differences of the two and away from pointing fingers that one really gets to the mature side of things. Those are the people I really admire, i.e. people with completely open and uncluttered minds. Absence of prejudice has to be the key.


I really like this post, Dean. Good words to think about. A thought that came to me is the absence of prejudice does not happen when people are trying to make everything fit an ideal that is set up in a religious text. I appreciate people more when it's obvious they are trying to build spirituality based off of what they know, and not so much what people tell them, or what they read. You can experiment and come to many truths that are universally held in high regard. People also don't learn very well with just instruction; experimentation is the spice of life, and you can't experiment very well with much bias.
deanhills
IceCreamTruck wrote:
I really like this post, Dean. Good words to think about. A thought that came to me is the absence of prejudice does not happen when people are trying to make everything fit an ideal that is set up in a religious text. I appreciate people more when it's obvious they are trying to build spirituality based off of what they know, and not so much what people tell them, or what they read. You can experiment and come to many truths that are universally held in high regard. People also don't learn very well with just instruction; experimentation is the spice of life, and you can't experiment very well with much bias.
Very true. I was thinking about your post all day in the back of my mind and wondering whether one ever really gets to a point of complete absence of prejudice. By definition perhaps there is always at least a little bit of prejudice attached to how we judge things around us. If we make a judgment call that means we reject whatever other options are available, i.e. if we say prejudice is the cause of all misunderstanding, then we nix all of the other possibilities as well and that may end up being prejudicial as well. Sort of like a movie of a guy watching a TV movie with a guy watching a TV movie. We think we're on top of something and maybe we will never be. I like your thinking though. By the way, when I was participating in Peterssidan's Match the Avatar contest, I'd gone through thousands of posts and come across some real kickass ones by you on subjects of philosophy and religion. What I like about them is that they are genuinely your own thoughts. No Wiki quotes. I wish I'd jotted down the links to them.
IceCreamTruck
deanhills wrote:
IceCreamTruck wrote:
I really like this post, Dean. Good words to think about. A thought that came to me is the absence of prejudice does not happen when people are trying to make everything fit an ideal that is set up in a religious text. I appreciate people more when it's obvious they are trying to build spirituality based off of what they know, and not so much what people tell them, or what they read. You can experiment and come to many truths that are universally held in high regard. People also don't learn very well with just instruction; experimentation is the spice of life, and you can't experiment very well with much bias.
Very true. I was thinking about your post all day in the back of my mind and wondering whether one ever really gets to a point of complete absence of prejudice. By definition perhaps there is always at least a little bit of prejudice attached to how we judge things around us. If we make a judgment call that means we reject whatever other options are available, i.e. if we say prejudice is the cause of all misunderstanding, then we nix all of the other possibilities as well and that may end up being prejudicial as well. Sort of like a movie of a guy watching a TV movie with a guy watching a TV movie. We think we're on top of something and maybe we will never be. I like your thinking though. By the way, when I was participating in Peterssidan's Match the Avatar contest, I'd gone through thousands of posts and come across some real kickass ones by you on subjects of philosophy and religion. What I like about them is that they are genuinely your own thoughts. No Wiki quotes. I wish I'd jotted down the links to them.


Actually I need to go back, because it's my history! I've gone back and forth on the idea of religion so many times. Partly because I was learning how to trust myself. I'm not blown over by new information any more, although I attempt to remain open minded. I no longer feel a need to refute every crazy thing that every religious fanatic throws out. For what it's worth though I have a few spiritual people who I keep on the list just in case any big questions come up and I want more input. I don't actually mind people sharing what they believe, but I do want people to stop thinking that beliefs are harmless. How far are you willing to take it, as most belief systems actually sponsor war against the non-believer, and that is some dangerous territory to flirt with on any level.

I too was thinking that if people learn to not be swayed by every conflicting opinion that surfaces, then they can learn to see life through one filter only, their own perception, and learn to notice that even they fail themselves at times. If one can realize their own perception is flawed then maybe we stand a chance to see the actual picture beyond the distortion that we all fundamentally deal with, and help everyone gain better understanding. Well, I just summed up all of human history... we're doing this any way, and I think religion is getting revisited in a healthy way as humanity continues to grow out of the dark ages in which I feel we are still stuck.

People still dying of starvation = dark ages
People still dying in land conflict = dark ages
People still dying in political conflict = dark ages
People still dying in resource conflict = dark ages
People still dying because of a difference of belief = dark ages
People still dying because they can't get simple medical care = dark ages

Shall I continue? Is it not obvious that we have not exited the dark ages yet?
deanhills
IceCreamTruck wrote:
I don't actually mind people sharing what they believe, but I do want people to stop thinking that beliefs are harmless. How far are you willing to take it, as most belief systems actually sponsor war against the non-believer, and that is some dangerous territory to flirt with on any level.
I "believe" Wink that beliefs can be both good and bad. It's the thinking and the attitude behind that may qualify it either way. I agree some of it can be very harmful, i.e. children not being allowed to receive medical treatment etc. etc. I'd say some of the thinking of atheists could have negative consequences as well, especially when the thinking develops into a belief system that it is not supposed to develop into and it creates disciples that it is not supposed to create and follow. Quite often those who are pi**ed off with religion end up creating a religion out of atheism, i.e. a religion in reverse.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
I too was thinking that if people learn to not be swayed by every conflicting opinion that surfaces, then they can learn to see life through one filter only, their own perception, and learn to notice that even they fail themselves at times. If one can realize their own perception is flawed then maybe we stand a chance to see the actual picture beyond the distortion that we all fundamentally deal with, and help everyone gain better understanding.
I always have Plato's cave story in the back of my mind, i.e. the guy who is tied down inside a dark cave, hands cuffed behind his back, and then there are shadows playing against the facing wall of what's going on outside. On the one hand we are equipped with great minds, but at the same time are also limited in having all of the real facts at our disposal. So it is almost impossible to make perfect and finite conclusions.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Well, I just summed up all of human history... we're doing this any way, and I think religion is getting revisited in a healthy way as humanity continues to grow out of the dark ages in which I feel we are still stuck.

People still dying of starvation = dark ages
People still dying in land conflict = dark ages
People still dying in political conflict = dark ages
People still dying in resource conflict = dark ages
People still dying because of a difference of belief = dark ages
People still dying because they can't get simple medical care = dark ages

Shall I continue? Is it not obvious that we have not exited the dark ages yet?
I think there is religion and religion. Religion is changing as well in this process of taking blinkers off. People are much more open in criticizing their religion, or are finding alternative ways to serve their beliefs.
IceCreamTruck
deanhills wrote:
People are much more open in criticizing their religion, or are finding alternative ways to serve their beliefs.


Fundamentally I know that if I don't continue learning and growing, then I'm dead or dying quick. What's funny is over the coarse of my life I have seen marked changes in the way a number of religious people do business, on TV, among my friends, and even in the community of missionaries overseas, as I have a lot of experience through my family. There is a slow adaptation changing the face of religion, but that community is really slow in working it out. What I mean is things like Dancing, and Drums were widely considered "evil" or "sinful" in America in our recent history, but you don't hear much of that nonsense any more. It was particularly the baptists that came up with not dancing as a solution to keep kids from lusting after one another, and drums... well, those are used in pagan rituals, and we can't have that stuff in the church were people are trying to feel holy! Any change means they are just adapting the picture to continue to ensure that they are a "have" and someone else is a "have-not". Fact of the matter is that people seem to enjoy a church that embraces rock and roll now-a-days, but the change here is really just the Baptists attempting to become more appealing to the younger generation who has basically been abused by parents dragging them to heartless hours of humming hymns that are so outdated it's like torture for the A.D.D.! They really felt the need to continue abusing children and filling their heads with garbage, so they have changed their format to be more appealing to the younger generation who has no idea that the generation would find fault with the liberties they are taking now in god's holy house.

Haha, I digress... everything changes, even religion, when religion isn't supposed to change. Not according to the premise that we were given the answers back in history, and need to keep observing that truth in order to be saved. Any allowed changes would mean now and in our future we have an abstracted truth based on the original, but any change, magnified over time, means the result will eventually be infinitely far away from where it once was, or that it becomes simply wrong -- which it has, and we're dealing with it now.

Personally I think a lot of people turn to religion out of fear, as I know I did. Fear of the unknown, fear that you're missing something, fear that if you don't believe then you won't be saved. Honestly, I fear believing something that is not right more than I fear dying without all the answers. It is my hope that anything I know is actually correct, and not a lie. Honestly, those lies have cost me a lot of time, and the stories you hear are so vastly different that it's a good possibility that none of them are true even in part. I take a step back from my own want for understanding, and look at the damage that "understanding" and thinking we know what's going on has caused this world when conflicting ideas come together, and I don't want any part of that! This is why beliefs are more harmful than people realize. We're killing each other over things we can't even prove!

Fundamentally, if you asked a bunch of kids to do an Easter egg hunt, didn't put out any eggs, and told the children the next game was going to be much more fun than this one, but they can't play if they don't find an egg, then I believe you are guilty of a crime at that point. Religion is just like this! Except some of the kids are running around saying they know where an egg is, and I've figured out that they won't find what they are looking for no matter how hard they believe what you told them. The reality of the situation is that the kids, frustrated by inability, will return to you over and over to hear hints about where you've hidden the eggs until they eventually become tired and weak. Some may never figure out the trick, but I know the real trick is to get people to keep coming back over and over again because that's the business that supports your ability to keep sitting there giving the children hints about eggs from time to time. I finally just told the game master that I have an egg, but I don't want to play the next game, just to see the confused look.

Also, I didn't ask to live, so I didn't come prepared, and I probably won't ever ask to die in my life, so I imagine that too will happen without much preparation. I am comfortable that cursing Jesus name on my death bed would have the same effect as praising his name, nothing, so I'm just going to leave any super natural out of my mental picture when accepting my eventual demise or when I actually rest on my death bed and contemplate my end. You may substitute any persons name, alive or dead, in the place of Jesus in this paragraph -- just people like me and you anyway, so profit or spiritual leader status matters not to me.
deanhills
Wow! Another kickass post by ICT! Thanks! Cool

Haha! Looks as though we have something more in common. I remember at High School that we had a real nut minister from one of the local churches who would do some of those famous congregation openings at the beginning and end of the school terms, and have lots to say about the evil of rock music and dancing. The nice part is that it made the dancing that much more fun of course. I can't recall that I ever felt afraid and that I needed to believe in God to feel secure. Difficult to explain, but it's just something that has always been there. A fact of my life. I also don't think God is the problem, people are.

To be truthful, I haven't been in church for a very long time. Not really my kind of thing. I don't mind listening to those loud and happy congregation gatherings, provided they are on TV and I can click them off. My favourite church gathering was a Minister who mostly preached philosophy along faith, hope and love lines. He worked a lot from Proverbs and the New Testament. I remember that at the time, and perhaps even now, I'd seen him as the best ever. He was quite a genuine and sincere guy. I always felt good after one of his sermons. I'm not at all into those dooms day preachers who like to pick people out for all their sins of the week and put the fear of God in them for behaving the next week. That's primitive. But does fit the general description of trying to recruit people to religion on the basis of fear. I'm glad I missed out on that.

I don't think the keep on returning easter egg scenario is only a trick for religion. It's a universal trick, sort of reminds me very much of investment advisors. Oh yes, and definitely politicians. Particularly when they are campaigning for their second term.
IceCreamTruck
Dean rocks his socks off and knows it! Smile Haha, I love this thread already! It would seem if you examine the contents from a more methodical approach, like a robot/computer, you may actually notice the need to just go ahead and throw this little thread over into the P&R forum, the abyss of huge threads that go far, but some go no where! That would be the end of this silly little question thread, and fitting, but we would move on to better and brighter futures! Always, Dean, much love for you! Well, a question that posed no harm ends up being a [quote=deanhills]kickass[/quote] thread, that's great news! My work here is done! Smile

My work on other projects is done too, so I'm totally switching gears now! Life is good!
BigGeek
I have to chime in here Rolling Eyes

So don't roll your eyes.

I share the same thread with you'all, but that was a long time ago. As I rejected traditional religion, I adopted a new belief based on the "Star Wars" concept of the force, and a source, in other words a non-anthropomorphic god. Became involved in two alternate or "New Age" groups.

They were not different, and your experiences with the Christian groups (same as mine) was also my experience with the "New Age" groups.

I say: Same SH*! different day, or line of BS Cool

I just seems to me that where ever there is the opportunity to talk about a supreme being of some sort, lies, guilt, fear, control, AND MONEY, are involved Shocked

The lies, guilt, fear, and control are used to keep you coming back and paying the MONEY!

Unfortunately almost everything said as well as the behavior of the great believers of our time are contradictory. Any sane person can't help but notice it, and the insane ones accept it.

As my posts in the P&R section point out, I advocate figuring it out for yourself.

You all talked about beliefs, and thier value, and a non-prejudiced view, I prefer to call it a non-judgmental point of view, either way, it works out to be the same.

I advocate meditation, which is slowing your breathing down and shutting off your internal dialogue. At first it is hard to do so, and if you notice, so much of your internal dialogue is about beliefs, and needs, and judgements. If you examine these, especially the beliefs, you will find that almost all of them, not just the religious ones are based on lies, or should I say things that just aren't so.

You learn not to take anything at first glance, and to unbiasedly observe the results of sincere effort to evaluate things, once practiced, it becomes habit, and a good one.

I once read the character trait of sobriety is to be a non-judgmental observer

Shocked
BigGeek
After I made this post I thought of something else that I wanted to add.

It is unfortunate that I think that the nature of man in general is to try and make themselves into an authority on something, and build up their own ego by doing so, and given this behavior the zealots are not found only in religion. They are found in the scientific community as well.

Story: I was in college in the late 70's early 80's, and this was a time where the new theory of Plate Tectonics had been accepted and proven as fact, the seismic data from the earth confirmed the plate boundaries, and the sonar data had mapped the ocean floors confirming the boundaries and the resultant geology. Prior to this, the accepted belief was that the ocean floors were flat.

I had professors that were acknowledged experts in their fields with published papers that were now considered unfounded, and not possible in light of plate tectonics. They still taught the old subject matter, and refused to change, and didn't accept the data. AND, there were others that agreed with him Very Happy

My point being is that the behavior that leads man to accept a dogmatic point of view, and leads them to refuse to question their view, is not just isolated to religion, it is prevalent in science, business, government, education, banking, and just about every endeavor going, and not isolated to religious beliefs.

AND AGAIN: I have no real evidence to back up this observation, only that I have made it Wink
deanhills
IceCreamTruck wrote:
to just go ahead and throw this little thread over into the P&R forum, Smile
Ah shucks ICT that would be the equivalent of dimming all the lights on this thread. All the paragraphs would probably be sliced into ribbons and nixed (oops I should have said "challenged") slice by slice. Anyway, I'm dead certain that if this thread fitted the Phil&Rel high standard for quality posts, it would have been shifted a long time ago. I'm glad it doesn't. Twisted Evil

BigGeek wrote:
My point being is that the behavior that leads man to accept a dogmatic point of view, and leads them to refuse to question their view, is not just isolated to religion, it is prevalent in science, business, government, education, banking, and just about every endeavor going, and not isolated to religious beliefs.
Couldn't agree with you more on this. For me it is man who maketh the religion, not religion making man. Since man is pretty fallible, has an ego, always wants to be remembered by "his" legacy, his claim on a slice of a particular brand of knowledge about the human being, the end product is pretty similar to any of the other areas of life. In some ways man can be pretty predictable.

BigGeek wrote:
I say: Same SH*! different day, or line of BS Cool
Can't agree more with you on this one. Sort of reminds me of DH Lawrence and his poem about Worm Either Way. In the end we can never get away from being essentially the same in our human form. Has to be a crushing blow to the egos of people who have elevated themselves to a special position of "knowing" or "being".
IceCreamTruck
Good posts guys... still pondering some good points.

Honestly though, I love frihost! Well, I like frihost, and I love Bondings and Co. ! Smile (this means all of you!) I love the way lots of people deconstruct their own arguments on frihost, and really let other people decide a viewpoint for themselves.

This isn't always the case, but I love it when people are obviously challenging themselves, and "keeping it real" for those who happen to join the conversation. I think it's easier to take someone's opinion when they show some restraint or no need for you to align yourself with them. I think this shows a lot of self confidence, helps one of the roughest situations we deal with as humans and that's a difference of belief, and it endears you in my heart as someone that I believe is deserving of my support and friendship as it's obvious that you are in the exact same place I am even if our perspective on the situation remains unique.

Here's an interesting little fact that I read between the lines in this thread!
Frihost.com > Facebook.com

There really is a good thing going here, and I think any psychologist would have to agree. That being said I will make a slow return to the P&R forum but only because I want to be active in all frihost forums, but this time I'm going in there to change myself into a better person in hopes that others will observe and follow my lead. Coming up with a good topic there will take much deliberation cause you know, dean, I don't do things "in the box", so I've got a lot of catching up to do. Also, I need to update my website posts and signature so that everyone is informed of the latest and greatest changes! Tomorrow is go live on the Android app, hopefully!

Frihost is where I started this whole project, and it's always been there for me even when I haven't always been available for it... Frihost Forever, Frihost FTW! Smile Fx4!

Thanks BigGeek, and Dean for making this a fun thread!
IceCreamTruck
Panic, Corral the horses!, Baton down the hatches!, and hold on to your hats. I feel like that old guy in westerns who just got beat up by the local bad guy, and thrown out of the saloon, but the people outside have convinced me that good will triumph, so I head right back into the P&R saloon and get thrown out the window into the mud: "Ah, Shucks!"

Where's the sheriff? Dastardly Dave and his band of ruffians has roughed up his last hombre, and we're going to have to form us a posse to run that vermin out of town for good.

I really am taken back and abused. I shouldn't have gotten out of bed this morning... that was horribly depressing! Took a real shot to my hope for humanity. I know it's not that bad, but .... ugh, but but but but but.... for now the P&R forum is too much to handle, and I don't wanna.

I feel this may have been a very good question to ask, however, I failed to heed my own precognition of the elevated risk!
deanhills
BRILLIANT analogy ICT. I thought Dogbert's is also right on Twisted Evil
IceCreamTruck
deanhills wrote:
BRILLIANT analogy ICT. I thought Dogbert's is also right on Twisted Evil


Thanks for sharing this, Dean, you're awesome. Helps to smooth the sting of my recent P&R bruises! Smile
IceCreamTruck
BTW, the convo I read went like this...

Title and thread body: "How can you be so close minded about these myths when there is X ridiculous stuff that you could cloud your mind with instead"

Response: (basically) Well, first we clear our mind of distraction, and work our way up by building fact on top of law, and by sticking to experiments that are reproducible for everyone.

Reply to response: See, there you go being all close minded about X ridiculous things, are you listening? Here, there is no fact, no reason, and really it completely contradicts everything about our reality, and yet I want you to "play" this game where I pretend to know something, and talk a lot, and you just listen and nod your head up and down, k? mmmmkay?

Actually it is the beast of free hosting requiring some people to make regular contributions which they give all of 2 seconds thought to, and then they defend as if it's their master's thesis. I'm not complaining, but I do wish that people wouldn't have panic attacks around threads like this... they forget themselves, forget who we are, and forget the community that we want to build and be a part of here.

Warning: Wear protection when entering the P&R forum! Safety first!
ocalhoun
IceCreamTruck wrote:

Warning: Wear protection when entering the P&R forum! Safety first!

The safest thing to do is to not go in P&R...
But if you're going in P&R, wear protection.
deanhills
IceCreamTruck wrote:
Actually it is the beast of free hosting requiring some people to make regular contributions which they give all of 2 seconds thought to, and then they defend as if it's their master's thesis. I'm not complaining, but I do wish that people wouldn't have panic attacks around threads like this... they forget themselves, forget who we are, and forget the community that we want to build and be a part of here.
Well said. I guess you're referring to those sliver by sliver quotes that are analyzed line by line to literal death and extinction.
loremar
ocalhoun wrote:
IceCreamTruck wrote:

Warning: Wear protection when entering the P&R forum! Safety first!

The safest thing to do is to not go in P&R...
But if you're going in P&R, wear protection.

That's what she said. Cool
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