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Kim Jong Il dead





menino
I guess you might have already heard about the news of Kim Jong Il's death, from the news. Its probably great news for a lot of western leaders, for the fact that he had always posed a threat to them and neighboring countries as well, with his activities on building nuclear arms especially and his arrogance towards western leaders.

source http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/18/kim-jong-il-dead-north-korea_n_1156945.html

I think a lot of his people loved him, but the rest of the world and some Koreans, especially South Koreans are kind of relieved I would guess.
Still, Kim Jong Un, his successor, will hopefully be better, though I doubt it. I had read somewhere that he was a kind of flamboyant playboy, so not sure if he will be a good leader.
deanhills
I was watching some of the funeral procession on BBC International last night. Did you see all of the military lined up and crying almost hysterically with passion and "meaning"? I thought that kind of thing had stopped in the dark ages? I can't recall seeing something like that before.

Anyway I think his death is definitely of interest to the world not knowing whether there will be a peaceful handover to a new leader, and how it will impact their nuclear initiatives. Also South Korea must be concerned too, wonder whether they've been beefing up the security on their borders? I can just imagine the West all sending letters of condolences and wishing to have meetings to secure world peace. I'd imagine the Clintons must have been at the funeral as well?
rogue_skydragon
Personally, I'm not relieved that he died. He was indeed a ruthless dictator, but his being gone doesn't mean his rule has stopped. His son and his closest allies will continue his irrational ways, albeit in a different light.

I saw this video of the North Korean people crying over his death, and I couldn't help but think that these people were not shedding genuine tears. I really believe that they were all forced to cry for him, in much the same way they are forced to continue such an ailing way of life.
mengshi200
That is exactly good news! Western leaders need to oberserve North Korea for some time.
deanhills
rogue_skydragon wrote:
Personally, I'm not relieved that he died. He was indeed a ruthless dictator, but his being gone doesn't mean his rule has stopped. His son and his closest allies will continue his irrational ways, albeit in a different light.

I saw this video of the North Korean people crying over his death, and I couldn't help but think that these people were not shedding genuine tears. I really believe that they were all forced to cry for him, in much the same way they are forced to continue such an ailing way of life.
Exactly, like those crier/mourners of the Dark Ages who were basically paid to cry during funeral processions. Did you notice they were all in army uniforms?

I agree with you too. I'd be more worried to have the son ruling. He does not seem to have the same respect and power his father used to have, and this may lead to some brutal power struggles. Some of it could lead to competitors for power trying to impress their following with challenging the West and invading South Korea rather than cooperating with the West and South Korea.
menino
NO doubt that the North Koreans are extremists.
I terms of how much the mourners were paid, I think they were given each a hot bowl of soup, as per the news I had heard at the time.

They thought of Kim Jong Il as almost a god, and even his father Kim II-sung as a god, and believe him to be immortal, i.e. not dead yet.

A lot of North Koreans are not aware much of the outside world, as television broadcasts only old movies and mainly about the nations leaders, military and farming.
Even the internet there is secured, and not much access, if at all to the outside world for the public, and even the universities.
kaysch
menino wrote:
NO doubt that the North Koreans are extremists.
I terms of how much the mourners were paid, I think they were given each a hot bowl of soup, as per the news I had heard at the time.

They thought of Kim Jong Il as almost a god, and even his father Kim II-sung as a god, and believe him to be immortal, i.e. not dead yet.

A lot of North Koreans are not aware much of the outside world, as television broadcasts only old movies and mainly about the nations leaders, military and farming.
Even the internet there is secured, and not much access, if at all to the outside world for the public, and even the universities.

@menino:
I don't think anybody had to be paid to attend the mournings. Remember how upset many Russians were when Stalin died? Besides going there is probably just a part of everyday life (like practising for the mass games), and if you don't attend people will notice and you'll end up having trouble.
At the end of last year I attended a meeting at a research institute which also performs studies on North Korea. They said there is reason to believe that the economic situation gets better, showing a photo of a private market with a lot of goods - some years ago that would have been unimaginable. Also through mobile phones smuggled into the country people who live near the borders do seem have some limited contact to the outside world. The same is true for North Koreans who worked in China or elsewhere and bring back news. Free internet access is off limit.
Some stories about North Korea really sound strange to me. If it wasn't so expensive I'd like to go there and find out myself. There is a tour operator in Beijing who also organises trips into North Korea...
menino
Yes Kaysch, I guess you are right; I guess a lot of those North Koreans who attended the funeral, may have had actual intention of mourning for their leader, and also for fear of what might happen if they do not show it.
Still, as much as strange things happen there, every country has their own strange things going on. I don't see any country that has no strange news..... there might be a few, I hope.
kaysch
menino wrote:
Still, as much as strange things happen there, every country has their own strange things going on. I don't see any country that has no strange news..... there might be a few, I hope.

North Korea seems to be doing very well when it comes to being strange, considering how often it is in the news and with what sort of news. I guess Denmark is exactly the opposite.
johans
Quote:
Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:13 pm Post subject: Kim Jong Il dead


Good for him..

he think his a God in N.Korea. He want all the people vow with him from medical treatment, infrastructure, food and basic needs people..

I did not visit N.Korea personally but what may basis is the documentation, reports and feedback in the people of N.Korea. No human rights in N.Korea..

Ahh.. My blood getting higher when i post this as i imagine the people of N.korea die for hunger..

Well, i need to relax because Kim Jong Il dead..
Very Happy
airh3ad
This is the big question today is China even communist anymore? Isn’t it really authoritarian? What’s the difference?

I think the country’s best described as a mixed-state — with the caveat that people try to ignore politics as much as humanly possible. I don’t know what the economic structure at the top actually is. They vaguely resemble the SOEs you see in socialist states like Norway, but they’re not run with democratic oversight, nor are the benefits dispersed to the people like you see in socialist or communist states. I don’t know enough about China to really understand what’s going on here. I get the vague impression that “Chinese characteristics” is a euphemism for “economic authoritarianism.” But maybe I’m misinterpreting things because I’m not an econ person?

I had a really interesting conversation with a friend about this. I told her I’d only have a kid if I could move to Norway or Finland. When she asked why, I went down the list of benefits and explained that the benefits existed because they’re socialist. (This may not continue to exist because of the Euro crisis, but they’d still be the best places to live if you’re a woman because of the overall culture.) She thought there were only two types of governments in the world — capitalist and communist. She was shocked to learn that there was anything else — let alone dozens of anything elses. I think that, more than anything else, speaks volumes. will this is my only reactions.
ocalhoun
airh3ad wrote:
She thought there were only two types of governments in the world — capitalist and communist. She was shocked to learn that there was anything else — let alone dozens of anything elses. I think that, more than anything else, speaks volumes.


For some reason, people -- especially ignorant people -- seem to tend to think in terms of such dichotomies... That everything is either A or B... and it never occurs to them that there might be a C or D, or that there might be something that has some aspects of A, but is also like B in other ways.
...It's part of the reason the two-party system is so entrenched in the US.


Hm... this is actually getting me interested in making a scientific study of stupid people. If you could discover the patterns behind how stupid people think, you might be able to have insight into how the 'ignorant masses' will act, which could be very useful.
Bikerman
Do you think stupid and ignorant are congruent?
ocalhoun
Bikerman wrote:
Do you think stupid and ignorant are congruent?

Not necessarily, but they often are.
deanhills
I found an interesting essay online with regard to the difference between ignorant and stupid:
Quote:
“Ignorance is not knowing. Stupidity is knowing and doing it anyway.” In other words, ignorance has to do with a simple lack of knowledge or education, but stupidity results when a person already possesses the necessary knowledge, yet continues to engage in behaviors that are patently illogical.

Source: http://www.karlonia.com/2007/04/21/ignorance-vs-stupidity/
menino
I think its geat what the successor to Kim Jong Il, i.e. Kim Jong Un is doing, to stop its nuclear program in return for aid to help the people.

[url] http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/North+Korea+confirms+offer+nuclear+moratorium/6225758/story.html[/url]

I think it is for the better, and hopefully he will be a better ruler, and improve the country, both economically, and strategically as well.
watchftp
menino wrote:
I think its geat what the successor to Kim Jong Il, i.e. Kim Jong Un is doing, to stop its nuclear program in return for aid to help the people.


It's not Kim Jong Un, who is doing or undoing, the plan to halt the nuclear plan was already on plate when Kim Jong Il was alive. So the young Kim Jong Un is just following the plan from his predecessor. But still this is good news, one step forward to hopefully peace.
loyal
So do you think the propoganda was successful and that the North Koreans loved Kim Jong Il and now they love his son too? Or can they see through it?
kaysch
watchftp wrote:
menino wrote:
I think its geat what the successor to Kim Jong Il, i.e. Kim Jong Un is doing, to stop its nuclear program in return for aid to help the people.


It's not Kim Jong Un, who is doing or undoing, the plan to halt the nuclear plan was already on plate when Kim Jong Il was alive. So the young Kim Jong Un is just following the plan from his predecessor. But still this is good news, one step forward to hopefully peace.


I tend to disagree - also in the past their nuclear programme, military attacks and threats (call them self-defense from a North Korean perspective) have often resulted in humanitarian aid. Their deal offer seems to be: economic support against peace in return. This strategy has worked for many years now. So why would they give away their only trump card in negotiations?
kaysch
By the way, recently a North Korean restaurant called "Restaurant Pyongyang" has opened in the city centre of Amsterdam.

http://pyongyangrestaurant.com/

Run by a Dutchman with the support of 9 North Korean staff, they offer 5-course dishes for 49 EUR or 9-course dishes for 79 EUR. Parts of the interior design and special spices are reported to be imported regularly from North Korea via China.

German news magazine DER SPIEGEL has covered the subject in one of their recent magazines.

http://www.spiegel.de/reise/europa/0,1518,823278,00.html

For those of you who don't speak German: The article says there are no political posters anywhere in the restaurant, the restaurant is supposed to be only about food and culture. They also bring up the question of boycotting it on political reasons nevertheless. Which in return leads to quite come controversial discussions in the online forum about the article.

I hope they will keep the restaurant open. There are some North Korean restaurants around the world already. One of them in Vientiane was always closed when I wanted to get in 3 years ago.

So: enjoy your meal...
menino
kaysch wrote:
I tend to disagree - also in the past their nuclear programme, military attacks and threats (call them self-defense from a North Korean perspective) have often resulted in humanitarian aid. Their deal offer seems to be: economic support against peace in return. This strategy has worked for many years now. So why would they give away their only trump card in negotiations?


It may be a ruse to get economic support, but I still think that its a good thing really.
If North Korea abandons its Nuclear program, that in itself is hope for peace... or at least one threat less of an arrogant government.
It makes sense for North Korea to accept food aid, as its economy is in shambles and probably the only thing it was ready for, was making Nuclear arms.

There was some controversy recently where North Korea tested a rocket, with verbal retaliation from US and SOuth Korea, but North Korea claimed it was a test satellite launch. I still hope its not a ruse, by North Korea to get what it wants both ways, and plays its own little games.
kaysch
I don't see North Korea reducing their military potential at all. It would totally contradict their national policy of "songun" - which means "military first". Songun is the government's life insurance and allows them to negotiate some economic assistance every now and then. Accepting foreign food aid is against another national policy called "juche" or autarchy. The government would lose face if it had to admit that they had to accept foreign aid.
As for the satellite or rocket test - who knows what they really shot into space?
deanhills
kaysch wrote:
As for the satellite or rocket test - who knows what they really shot into space?
Great posts kaysch Cool Do you have a theory about what they shot into space?
Rajat_Pawar
To be honest, I was so ignorant, I didn't and don't know who the hell he is.
kaysch
deanhills wrote:
kaysch wrote:
As for the satellite or rocket test - who knows what they really shot into space?
Great posts kaysch Cool Do you have a theory about what they shot into space?

Thanks deanhills. A lot of media attention over here in Germany goes to North Korea. Maybe because of the similar history Germany and Korea went through.
What they are about to launch I really don't know. They are reported to claim it's a satellite to monitor agricultural yields and natural resources... Sounds like an interesting mission to me. Wink
menino
Well, whatever they tested / shot, it landed into many pieces in the sea, and to top that off, I heard that because of the test, the food aid has been abandoned.
I think it serves North Korea right, because the money that they could have spent in testing that rocket could go into feeding those poor people.
Most of the people are brainwashed, or least believe in their leader without knowing much of the outside world.
I was hoping that the new leader of North Korea would be better, but I guess the same advisors are there still.
kaysch
menino wrote:
Well, whatever they tested / shot, it landed into many pieces in the sea, and to top that off, I heard that because of the test, the food aid has been abandoned.
I think it serves North Korea right, because the money that they could have spent in testing that rocket could go into feeding those poor people.
Most of the people are brainwashed, or least believe in their leader without knowing much of the outside world.
I was hoping that the new leader of North Korea would be better, but I guess the same advisors are there still.

North Korea reminds me of Albania in the 70's or 80's. Also Albania had a Stalinist system with a very strong army/police, a similar ideology of autarchy and an economy in ruins. Back then they built 300.000 bunkers instead of using the cement to build badly needed houses. The death of Enver Hoxha in 1985 did not change that a lot, under his successor Ramiz Alia the same policies were continued.
I'm not sure every North Korean is brainwashed, but it's probably dangerous to utter ideas that differ from the official political line. Then again, the stereotype about Koreans is that they don't question their authorities a lot in general - which is why Samsung is so strong reportedly.
deanhills
Probably a great compliment to Albania, but not so sure to North Korea. North Korea is strategically from a power point of view too much advanced. They like to use that power too. I'd rather compare North Korea with China under Mao Tse Tung during the late fifties and early sixties.
kaysch
deanhills wrote:
Probably a great compliment to Albania, but not so sure to North Korea. North Korea is strategically from a power point of view too much advanced. They like to use that power too. I'd rather compare North Korea with China under Mao Tse Tung during the late fifties and early sixties.

I agree, Communist Albania and current North Korea differ with regards to their strategic importance, although Albania's strategic location on the Mediterranean sea managed to attract the Soviets. On the other hand, don't you think that comparing North Korea's influence to Mao's China is a little too much honour for the Kim family?
deanhills
kaysch wrote:
I agree, Communist Albania and current North Korea differ with regards to their strategic importance, although Albania's strategic location on the Mediterranean sea managed to attract the Soviets. On the other hand, don't you think that comparing North Korea's influence to Mao's China is a little too much honour for the Kim family?
Contemporary China I completely agree, but the China of the fifties and sixties was anything but sophisticated. If I remember correctly they mucked it up so badly that millions died of starvation during that time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

The mind set that prevailed at that time, resulting in the above consequences to me is similar to North Korea's of today.
kaysch
Today North Korea was in the news because of a children's rally. South Korean newspapers accused North Korea of propaganda because 20'000 children were asked to celebrate the 66th anniversary of the North Korean Children's Union, and North Korea countered by threatening to bomb South Korean newspapers for their news if they fail to excuse themselves for their reports.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2012/06/120_112254.html

I wonder why the North Koreans worry about South Korean reports as those newspapers are banned in North Korea anyway.
Really difficult to understand, those folks...
deanhills
Reminds me a little of Hitler who used to brainwash children into his cause. Great technique to create an invisible enemy to get them to believe in the Government's cause.
kaysch
Amazing, this country. They are still celebrating Kim Jong Il's death, after 1 year or so. Look at this film done by North Korean state-run television KRT.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9748587/North-Korea-thousands-mark-anniversary-of-Kim-Jong-il-death.html

Or see this article about how the mourning goes on.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g_h0470F35wJVBIz-jpLcr2S9N1w?docId=cc3d901e52fc48aaabe5bf1d7869ae17
zaxacongrejo
one day we all will celebrate the invasion of north corea by the south
and they will sing this is gangnam style sexy lady!!!
twotrophy
zaxacongrejo wrote:
one day we all will celebrate the invasion of north corea by the south
and they will sing this is gangnam style sexy lady!!!

Invading North Korea would be dangerous because it has nuclear weapons which could destroy entire cities. Diplomacy and activism would be better ways to pressure NK to stop its human rights violations although it is far less effective. Who knows? Maybe NK would eventually collapse because of its problems such as food scarcity although I think that this is very unlikely to happen.
zaxacongrejo
they all went to bad at 10pm so we just need to wait till 11:50 pm loll
kaysch
As we all think we know the "beloved leader" Kim Jong Il died of a heart attack on 17 Dec 2011, about a year ago.

Interestingly, as Choson Ilbo, a South Korean newspaper, has reported recently, his heart attack came because he was infuriated as he had to learn about shortcomings on the construction of Huichon dam.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2012/12/26/2012122600578.html

Not sure whether this is true as South Korea is suspiscious of anything going on in the North, but it's a funny story anyway... Smile

May you be blessed, "beloved leader". We'll all remember you dearly.
capricornis
His son did not prove to be much more enlightened than his father, at least so far. And with threatening America and launching satellites and missiles he seems just another apple from the old tree, and maybe even more dangerous eventually.
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