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Christmas is still called Christmas





MrTylerGreen
During this time, there seems to be an ever growing struggle over religious hypersensitivity. Non-Christians seem to have this concept that it is offensive of Christians to say "Christ is the reason for the season." All over this country people are pushing to have nativity scenes taken down in public places.

Let me ask a serious question though? Isn't it true? Isn't the object of Christmas to honor Christ? Isn't it a holiday specifically designed to celebrate the birth of Christ? Who cares if Christ wasn't actually born on December 25th? If my birthday lands on a day I work, I often move my celebration to another day that is more convenient. Who cares if it used to be a Pagan holiday and half of the traditions were adopted from that Holiday? Did you actually even know the name of said Pagan holiday? Are you even a Pagan, if not, why do you care so much about recognizing the fact that it falls on the same day as a dead and unrecognized holiday? The fact is that for over 1000 years it has been the day that we celebrate the birth of Christ.

So why all of this sensitivity over nativity scenes and saying Merry Christmas or calling it a Christmas tree? I don't wait til Veteran's Day and say "Hey, I am not a Veteran, I am a Retailer by trade, so I am going to call it Retailers Day and try to rename all of the traditions associated with it." The same way a non-Veteran still has respect for Veterans on Veteran's Day, why can't people of other religious persuasions have some respect and call Christmas by its real name.

Are people really so self-centered that if they are not religious they can't even stand the SOUND of the word Christmas? Would it really hurt their poor eyes to see a nativity scene in public? I doubt so. America is supposed to be about FREEDOM OF RELIGION, not about FREEDOM FROM RELIGION. If you don't want to honor Christ, then by all means, don't do it. And don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't care that you don't love Christ. It's not that I don't care what your eternal destination is. In fact I will pray for you about that, because I do care for you all deeply. But you have gone too far when you try to infringe on the freedom of those who do wish to honor Christ.

What is everyone else's opinion on this?
Hello_World
I both agree and disagree.

I disagree with the idea that Christmas is 'owned' by Christians.

Most people here celebrate Christmas whether or not they are Christian. It is a long held tradition. For some of us it is a time to visit family, for others it is a religious ceremony and others it is something else.

And historically speaking, the Christians have taken much of their traditions from the pagan religion, so I don't really see why it is not okay for the rest of us to enjoy some parts of the Christian tradition and re-interpretting it to suit ourselves.

So technically, it is a day set aside to celebrate summer solstice and Christians have re-interpretted it. (Or winter solstice whatever.).

It is YOUR reason for celebrating. I have other reasons. And I don't want Christians telling me how to interpret MY traditions.

Also, it marks the signal of the summer holidays. Everyone wants to celebrate, why just the Christians?

What I agree with however, is that I don't really see a problem with allowing people to celebrate it however they want, an if they want to set up nativity scenes, so why not? If they want to say Merry Christmas, so let them.

It seems to me the Christians are the only ones who are making a big deal out of all this. It is ONLY the Christians who keep circulating facebook pictures like "Its Merry Christmas not happy holidays" etc etc I don't see anyone circulating "Its happy holidays not Merry Christmas?...
Nameless
I get the feeling there are more people being hypersensitive to Christmas hypersensitivity than there is original hypersensitivity, but still far far more people (Christians or otherwise) who don't care at all. It's another case of the vocal minority.

It's rather inaccurate to say that Christmas has a single objective. Some people participate to honor Christ, some people to catch up with their families, some people just love swapping gifts, some just want to relax with a week off from work ... The 'true meaning of Christmas' is something that only exists on a personal level.

There's a fair argument to be made that freedom of religion implies freedom from religion, but I'll not go there. The most commonplace Christmas activities taking place in public (ie. shopping) have little to do with religion in any case.

Christmas decorations don't bother me much personally, but I can understand if they do others - certain repetitious carols grate on my nerves very quickly and practically speaking, visual ugliness (an obviously subjective scale) can be worse than audio ugliness since it's easier to drown out carols with earphones than it is it drown out Jesus and tinsel everywhere with a blindfold. Imagine if you needed to go shopping but everywhere you went there was babies screaming rap opera over the speakers and displays of fat disfigured naked men - they wouldn't hurt you either, but you'd probably kick up a fuss. A few people just dislike Christmas that much!

There's also an issue with local governments putting up decorations with tax dollars that could be better spent on hospitals and the like, but that's another issue altogether that has little to do with Christmas specifically.
Hello_World
As a side note, I'm not a pagan, but there are people who are and I don't see why you think your religion trumps theirs.

And it isn't a dead and unrecognised holiday. I know a lot of people who celebrate summer solstice in some way, including non-pagans. Personally I find the turning of the seasons (and the height of the seasons) has relevance in my life.

And also I think a lot of this angst stems from 'politically correct' police rather than those of us who aren't Christian.

For example, it is true that some teachers feel confined or encouraged not to celebrate Christmas on behalf of having Muslim kids in the classes. The Christians and others get het up about it and start talking stuff about Christmas and Muslims.

The Muslim community body comes out every year and says, "what? we have never had a problem with anyone celebrating Christmas. Jesus is even part of our religion, (although not an important part)."

And I must say I wrestle a little over the idea of whether or not Christmas is appropriate in schools, as I certainly don't think any other form of religion is appropriate.

And as a personal analogy, our Muslim neighbours came over yesterday to wish us a Merry Christmas and gave us a present. We on the other hand had considered giving their kids presents and were unsure whether or not it was appropriate. Haha now we have to rush off and get them something lol.

So I think Nameless is spot on when he is talking about hypersensitivity on top of hypersensitivity. And just a part of finding our way in this multicultural world.
truespeed
This debate gets dragged up every "Christmas" i tend to think its only seen as a problem by Americans and daily Mail readers here in the UK,over here christians don't own christmas,we all do,those who think christmas is about Jesus are in the minority,for most christmas is about the fat guy in the red suit,giving and receiving presents,and catching up with family.
GuidanceReader
I had a discussion about this with someone the other day. I am not Christian but it REALLY annoys me when people exclaim that Christmas is a Pagan holiday that the Christians stole!! I tried to explain it to them -

Whilst some Christmas traditions may have been borrowed/adapted from Pagan traditions, this does not make it Pagan. The word 'Christmas' belongs to Christianity, thus the term 'Christ' in it. There is nothing wrong with using some of those prior traditions to help you celebrate your new ones. It is a part of the way things evolve and develop. It would be like saying that the creation of the torch was by Thomas Edison because it 'borrowed' the light bulb, when in fact it was created by Conrad Hubert.

Yes, Pagans probably created the tradition of the Christmas [Yule] Tree and other similar traditions celebrated by Pagans, but this does not make Christmas a stolen celebration.
GuidanceReader
Hello_World wrote:

For example, it is true that some teachers feel confined or encouraged not to celebrate Christmas on behalf of having Muslim kids in the classes. The Christians and others get het up about it and start talking stuff about Christmas and Muslims.


I'm a teacher and found that if you speak to the parents and include diversity in the classroom, most are accommodating and don't mind what you do. I've included many faiths in my end of year celebrations and use it as a time to get the students to become educated on different beliefs (which I find has helped understanding and tolerance). I've never had to exclude any Jehovah Witnesses or Muslims (both who don't celebrate Christmas and are usually sent out of the room in most classes when Christmas stuff is done), because the parents understand that I am not making them celebrate another religion and that I expect them to uphold their own traditions and discuss them too.

One year I had the classroom split into four with decorations for Hanukkah, Baby Jesus, Santa and Graduation (end of primary school), based on what the children wanted after discussing their religions. The child of the Jehovah Witness family was happy to help decorate the graduation corner without compromising her religious beliefs. The Agnostic/Atheist children were happy to help on a couple of the corners. Everyone was happy and many parents thanked me for it. I've never seen so much acceptance from the children after a year of bullying, all because they understood where the other was coming from, instead of having it shut out due to politics.
deanhills
@GuidanceReader. Teaching tolerance , REAL tolerance is a gift so I'm totally impressed with your teaching. Do you find any challenges while you are teaching this though? I.e. children who are naturally intolerant of others' beliefs? Or resisting your teaching?
Hello_World
Guidance I'm not sure if you are simply commenting on the first post or responding to me in part, with relation to your pagan comment.

So at least I will clarify what I said... which was not that Christians 'stole' the holiday, but 're-interpretted' it. And I followed that by saying that I also re-interpret it to suit myself.

I have no issue with 're-interpretting'.

I also responded to the following:

Quote:
Are you even a Pagan, if not, why do you care so much about recognizing the fact that it falls on the same day as a dead and unrecognized holiday? The fact is that for over 1000 years it has been the day that we celebrate the birth of Christ.


Which seems to me to imply that he thinks we should recognise the Christian version of the holiday ('Jesus is the reason for the season') and not the Pagan version. Which is odd for someone who talks later about 'freedom of religion'.

I am more than happy for Christians to celebrate their day in the manner they choose. I see no reason why Christians and Pagans can't both celebrate it in their own way, as well as every body else.

Sorry if you weren't responding to me but I suppose it doesn't hurt to clarify anyway. Because, yes, I have heard other people talk about Christmas being stolen from the Pagans as if it denigrates the day. However, I personally agree with you. Except that the word 'Christmas' no longer belongs to Christians, even if they invented it. It has evolved.

Quote:
I'm a teacher and found that if you speak to the parents and include diversity in the classroom, most are accommodating and don't mind what you do.


Yeah I think it is something every teacher wrestles with and you seem to have found a way to balance the needs of your classroom to be inclusive. I think it is a difficult thing. Part of my point was that it seems that when teachers are unable to find some kind of balance or whatever, that when they choose to not celebrate anything it is largely self-imposed... it isn't imposed on them by some kind of anti-Christian lobby or angry Muslim parents or anything... and your method appears to confirm that, by having successfully found a strategy of inclusion.
deanhills
Hello_World wrote:
Yeah I think it is something every teacher wrestles with and you seem to have found a way to balance the needs of your classroom to be inclusive. I think it is a difficult thing. Part of my point was that it seems that when teachers are unable to find some kind of balance or whatever, that when they choose to not celebrate anything it is largely self-imposed... it isn't imposed on them by some kind of anti-Christian lobby or angry Muslim parents or anything... and your method appears to confirm that, by having successfully found a strategy of inclusion.
Wouldn't the success of that teaching be dependent on the community that she teaches in however? If she were to teach this in some of the smaller towns in Mississippi, wonder how it would go down there?
Hello_World
I'm not 100% about what 'Missippi' implies but I guess I associate it with deep Christian values...?

In which I imagine they would be all over celebrating Christmas like the OP wants and not including other cultures?

I guess in a place like that there may be some backlash by those people missing out on being recognised? And possibly calling for a change?

Is this what you are suggesting? That perhaps some people do call for not saying Merry Christmas because there is still a heavy dominance of Christianity at the exclusion of others?

Yeah certainly you are right I can't speak for the whole world lol just observe what I see.

That strategy certainly wouldn't work in Iran or possibly Missippi I don't know.
loremar
Hello_World wrote:
Because, yes, I have heard other people talk about Christmas being stolen from the Pagans

I thought it was Grinch who stole Christmas??? Eh?
Hello_World
ROFL Yes! Indeed, it was the GRINCH. Very Happy
deanhills
Hello_World wrote:
I'm not 100% about what 'Missippi' implies but I guess I associate it with deep Christian values...?

In which I imagine they would be all over celebrating Christmas like the OP wants and not including other cultures?

I guess in a place like that there may be some backlash by those people missing out on being recognised? And possibly calling for a change?

Is this what you are suggesting? That perhaps some people do call for not saying Merry Christmas because there is still a heavy dominance of Christianity at the exclusion of others?

Yeah certainly you are right I can't speak for the whole world lol just observe what I see.

That strategy certainly wouldn't work in Iran or possibly Missippi I don't know.
No, I was responding to GuidanceReader's point about teaching diversity to the class room with the consent of the parents. I'm almost certain she must be from a very secular environment. Some environments would be completely resistant to this kind of teaching.
http://www.logtv.com/films/schoolprayer/
Ankhanu
Personally, I find the PC rhetoric surrounding Christmas to be tiresome and completely unnecessary. Say Merry Christmas if you want to... most people, unless they're being tools, will accept it for the exchange of a pleasantry that it is.

That said, the resistance to publicly funded (tax dollars) nativity scenes is less about the religion that is being celebrated specifically, and more about the (American) constitutional violations that it represents. the (American) government should not, by the constitution, be involved in endorsing religion, let alone specific religions... which, in effect, it is doing by erecting nativity scenes, or including things like the ten commandments in legal buildings and the like. Government dollars should not be spent on endorsing one religion over others (and endorsing all religions and beliefs is logistically ridiculous and self-contradictory)... it's that simple.
On an entirely related note, I've not seen any references to privately funded nativity scenes erected on privately owned land causing any issues, nor privately funded nativity scenes erected on public land that don't exclude the inclusion of other points of view/belief to also be displayed. More often than not the major uproar is from Christians who decry any attempts by other groups to put out their message, rather than the other way around (yes, "more often than not" denotes the statement being a generalization, do not attack the statement for being general and masquerading as universally applicable Razz )

There's no war on Christmas, just publicly funded Christmas. Individuals are still free to celebrate the holiday of their choice and to offer their cheer to those around them. State endorsement is not required for a happy holiday Razz

The facts of much of Christmas celebration tradition being adapted from pagan traditions (from several pagan religions, not just one) to the point of even being completely moved to a vastly incorrect date is almost entirely inconsequential. It is an interesting historic factoid, but, functionally irrelevant in the realm of religions. Given that much of religious practice seems manufactured, borrowed or otherwise arbitrary, Christmas' inconsistencies are just par for the course.
That in mind, there's also the point of "who cares!?!" in relation to the fact that for very few, practicing Christians included, Jesus is not the "reason for the season" (Technically it's the solstice, but that's related to the above point about paganism). Very few truly give two poops about the birth of Jesus next to the secular acts of giving/receiving and commercialism, family togetherness, seeing old friends, and the like. The religious aspects are incidental to most; it's the very real companionship aspect that is most important. This transcends religious boundaries to a heavy degree, and should be supported.

In essence, screw the trappings of holiday and just get on with loving the people around you. Don't worry about the "war on Christmas" and just celebrate it (that's how you win!).
GuidanceReader
deanhills wrote:
@GuidanceReader. Teaching tolerance , REAL tolerance is a gift so I'm totally impressed with your teaching. Do you find any challenges while you are teaching this though? I.e. children who are naturally intolerant of others' beliefs? Or resisting your teaching?


Well my students are in the primary/elementary group, so their tolerance is pretty easy to teach at that age. I am sure it wasn't long lasting, depending on their other outside influences, however. It did make teaching the class a lot more pleasant with the tolerance that lasted at least that year, however.

Hello_World wrote:
Guidance I'm not sure if you are simply commenting on the first post or responding to me in part, with relation to your pagan comment.

So at least I will clarify what I said... which was not that Christians 'stole' the holiday, but 're-interpretted' it. And I followed that by saying that I also re-interpret it to suit myself.


I was responding to the first post at the time, and basing my opinions on what other people I know had said. I have no issues with saying the Christians re-interpreted the holiday, as opposed to stolen it. Very Happy

deanhills wrote:
Wouldn't the success of that teaching be dependent on the community that she teaches in however? If she were to teach this in some of the smaller towns in Mississippi, wonder how it would go down there?

I fully agree with this. In Australia (which is where I am) there seems to be a more general acceptance of diversity than other places in the world, which makes it easier on me to get that permission in the first place.

Ankhanu wrote:
Personally, I find the PC rhetoric surrounding Christmas to be tiresome and completely unnecessary. Say Merry Christmas if you want to... most people, unless their being tools, will accept it for the exchange of a pleasantry that it is.

Fully agree
PeteWalker74
To my family and I, Christmas is a secular holiday. It's about a chubby guy in a red suit, not about Jesus. It's the same with Easter being about a bunny and eggs, not Jesus.
MrTylerGreen
While it is true that on a common social level, most people take "merry Christmas" as a simple pleasantry, it is also true that people in corporate work environments are often forbidden from saying "merry Christmas." I know many people who work in corporate call centers that have been reprimanded for saying it. In the same environments it would even be considered reprehensible thing to set up a small nativity scene on their desk, even though for Halloween it is not only acceptable, but generally common to redecorate an office with ghouls and ghosts and the like. As a society it is important that joining a corporate work environment does not necessitate an alteration in the way that they celebrate a holiday. I think it is just fine for a secular person to give a secular meaning to a non-secular holiday. Again, I am advocating for freedom, but I expect to have the same level of freedom of secular celebrations.

Limitations in the workplace aside though, it is also true that it is still CALLED Christmas. I will refer again to my statement about Veterans Day. Whether or not I am a Veteran, the holiday is still called Veteran's Day, and it would be incredibly disrespectful to call it something else based on the fact that I am not a veteran. How come people celebrating this holiday in a secular way can't see that renaming a holiday based on the fact that they celebrate it differently is disrespectful? What about the problems concerning expressing your feelings about Christmas in the workplace?
Ankhanu
MrTylerGreen wrote:
Limitations in the workplace aside though, it is also true that it is still CALLED Christmas. I will refer again to my statement about Veterans Day. Whether or not I am a Veteran, the holiday is still called Veteran's Day, and it would be incredibly disrespectful to call it something else based on the fact that I am not a veteran. How come people celebrating this holiday in a secular way can't see that renaming a holiday based on the fact that they celebrate it differently is disrespectful? What about the problems concerning expressing your feelings about Christmas in the workplace?


Ah, but that's not entirely true. Christmas is one holiday celebrated in this season. THIS is part of the root of the social issue with Christmas being so prominent. There's always Hanukkah/Chanukkah celebrated throughout the season, the various overtly solstice related holidays, such as yule, Saturnalia/Chronia (yep, still observed!), and Lohri, among others. In America, there's also Kwanzaa... Add in secularity and plain non-observance, and you have quite a mixed bag of potential feelings towards the season. It's called Christmas for most of us, but not for a lot of others... it's not even celebrating the holiday differently, it's celebrating completely different holidays.
johans
Quote:
To my family and I, Christmas is a secular holiday. It's about a chubby guy in a red suit, not about Jesus. It's the same with Easter being about a bunny and eggs, not Jesus.


I totally disagree. " Christmas" take the basic english 101 root word " Christ " this means Jesus if you base on the bible. " Merry Christmas " is combination of two name " Merry " and " Christ " the mother and the son Jesus Christ.

If you are a catholic person Merry Christmas is the celebration and to remember the birth of Jesus.
GuidanceReader
johans wrote:


If you are a catholic person Merry Christmas is the celebration and to remember the birth of Jesus.


Merry is an English word, meaning Happy. It has nothing to do with Jesus' mother, whose name is Mary.

I do agree, however that the word Christmas is of Christian derivations. Breaking the words into it's two parts - 'Christ' and 'Mass', with Mass being a celebration in Catholic religions, this would mean the word Christmas means "The Celebration of Christ"...
Ankhanu
Etymology and meaning don't always line up, however... PeteWalker74's statement demonstrates this quite nicely.
loremar
It's what they call etymological fallacy -- where a person holds that its "etymon"(the word which it is historically derived) is the only true and real meaning of the current word. This is simply a fallacy because the word is currently used by many people in a different sense or meaning. While it is still true for some especially christians to say that christmas is about celebrating jesus's birthday yet it can not be the only meaning since many people have already used the word differently.

To simply put it, my christmas is different from your christmas. Though both are historically connected, they're two entirely different words.

For example, one person says "in my country we use 'piss' to mean drunk", then the other person says "'piss' in my country means angry". Though both can be historically connected, they're entirely different words.

Though what's silly about all of this is that a christian and an non-christian could greet each other a merry christmas and they could mean two different things especially when the christian strongly holds that christmas is all about jesus christ.
GuidanceReader
Yep, and then there's that too.... (piss means urine where I am from Razz )
johans
Nice to see more information and what other people believes, how they understand and what there culture is..

at the end nothing to debate as long as you believes on what you believes..

HAVE A GREET DAY TO ALL.

Cheers!

Very Happy
MrTylerGreen
I see that nobody is really up too tackling the injustice of why Christians have to take down their nativity scenes in public, but other people are perfectly aloud to do whatever sort of decorations they fancy for the holiday.

Can anyone explain away the injustice of why I can't put a nativity scene on my desk, but the guy next to me can put up a Charlie Brown Christmas tree, even though I am not a big fan of Charlie Brown. I understand limitations on discussing religion in the workplace because of how temperamental people can get about religion or being preached too, but does that mean that I can't even express myself? If someone doesn't like a nativity scene then don't stare at my desk, just like I won't stare at the desk with a Charlie Brown tree on it.
Ankhanu
MrTylerGreen wrote:
I see that nobody is really up too tackling the injustice of why Christians have to take down their nativity scenes in public, but other people are perfectly aloud to do whatever sort of decorations they fancy for the holiday.

Can anyone explain away the injustice of why I can't put a nativity scene on my desk, but the guy next to me can put up a Charlie Brown Christmas tree, even though I am not a big fan of Charlie Brown. I understand limitations on discussing religion in the workplace because of how temperamental people can get about religion or being preached too, but does that mean that I can't even express myself? If someone doesn't like a nativity scene then don't stare at my desk, just like I won't stare at the desk with a Charlie Brown tree on it.

A work place is not a private environment, and each work place can have its own rules regarding decorating. There need not be any particular "justice" or even real consistency.

That said, a nativity scene is inherently religious in its symbolism, there's no getting around it. A Christmas tree, however, is not. Your work place is NOT your playground for expressing yourself, it's your workplace. You don't have the right to express individuality at work, you're there to do your work. The fact that many employers are somewhat open about personal expression, the fact is that you're not entitled to it; you're being paid to provide a service, not celebrate your religion or express your personal beliefs on any given topic (unless that's what you're being paid for, that is).

Many employers WILL allow religiously themed decorations, some will not. In the end, it's their prerogative, not yours. You can raise your concerns, but, in the end it's a trivial matter and it's their decision to make.
MrTylerGreen
I am from America, and most people try to say that this is a land founded on freedom and personal expression. While decorating isn't enumerated in the first amendment, the purpose of the first amendment is that any person would be allowed to express themselves, so long as it didn't infringe on the rights on another person. If a person is offended by ghosts and ghouls because they are "demonic" (I am not that crazy). Then why is it that Halloween celebrations are allowed, but not a Christian celebration. The basics of the situation boils down to the fact that you can express yourself any way you like so long as that expression is not one of religious origin. Whether or not it is to the discretion of the employer is irrelevant, the fact is that people who are religious cannot express themselves in as many ways as people who are not religious can.

Why is that a student pastry chef can bring in pies and cookies for everybody to try (even if some are diabetic and do not want to partake), but a person going to seminary to become a preacher can't practice on his co-workers (even if some do not want to partake). There is a double standard as to what is acceptable when it comes to religious vs. secular affairs. A more acceptable model would be to let these situations work themselves out, Just like a pastry chef would stop bringing pastries if NOBODY wanted any, a preacher would stop preaching if NOBODY listened. If being able to preach at work is so important to them, then they will find a different job. That is the essence of a FREE market. Jobs are created and lost at the whim of true individualism, not authoritative control.
ocalhoun
MrTylerGreen wrote:
The basics of the situation boils down to the fact that you can express yourself any way you like so long as that expression is not one of religious origin.

False exception there. You're also free to express religious things in just the same way.
(Unless you're acting as a representative of the government, in which case, you shouldn't do so while on duty.)
Quote:
a preacher would stop preaching if NOBODY listened.

And that one's definitely false! At least for some 'preachers'.

...Some definitely seem to go the 'pester them until they agree just so I'll shut up' route.
Hello_World
MrTylerGreen

corporations can and do trample human rights at any chance they get.

I'm not sure about how I feel on whether people should be able to bring religious stuff into work, but I do know this:

a)I'd prefer personally, that you didn't, and
b)everyone rolls their eyes when people bring wacky religious stuff into work, that is why no-one does.

Your boss is probably just trying to save you from looking the fool.

I suppose I'd prefer that you are able. Though I can't see why it is so important you need to bring it into work.

Some people could bring really wacky stuff in, like the depiction of a man being tortured to death.

Also, what about when the boss chooses a religeous thing? And expects everyone else too? And you don't, because you don't belong to his or her religion. Then you start getting discriminated against...

it could also form cliques at work, all the Chrissos, all the Mussies, all the freethinkers etc... not really good lines being drawn here in my opinion...
Ankhanu
ocalhoun wrote:
MrTylerGreen wrote:
The basics of the situation boils down to the fact that you can express yourself any way you like so long as that expression is not one of religious origin.

False exception there. You're also free to express religious things in just the same way.
(Unless you're acting as a representative of the government, in which case, you shouldn't do so while on duty.)
Quote:
a preacher would stop preaching if NOBODY listened.

And that one's definitely false! At least for some 'preachers'.

...Some definitely seem to go the 'pester them until they agree just so I'll shut up' route.

Ocalhoun beat me to the punch.


Even your pastry chef comparison is off.
Yeah, they can bring stuff in, but partaking in the pastry is a voluntary effort. No one has to opt out of eating a pastry, you have to opt in. Likewise, you CAN practice seminary, if people want to opt in; you can form a group and do your religious thing (during your time off). The main thing is that it doesn't infringe upon your work... just like eating a pastry doesn't infringe upon work.
Have you tried having a religious group at work? A group to discuss your magic? I'm thinking that you can discuss just about whatever you want during your break times.
johans
this is cool.. different explanation and different views.. as expected because we are have different believes and cultures..

HAVE A GREAT DAY TO EVERYBODY!

Very Happy
emedeiros
Christmas is for christians. It's only related to christians. And to nothing or nobody else.

I'm not saying that it's wrong for non-christians to throw a christmas party and/or give gifts and all that stuff; but it's a christian thing.
redhakaw
nope, christmas is pagan. well, an assimilated pagan practice that is.
johans
i dont care hows its called as long as its Christmas, then i am happy for it. Laughing
Peterssidan
I'm glad Christmas is called jul in my language (Swedish). The name itself doesn't imply it has anything to do with anything so it can be used by both Christians and non-Christians without any hard feelings.
jajarvin
Christmas is still called Christmas?

That is a problem in those countries in which English language is spoken.
Here in Finland Christmas is called "Joulu".
The word Joulu has nothing to do with Christianity.
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