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Death of Jesus





Hello_World
It occured to me the other day in fact that I know that Jesus was supposed to rise again for 3 days after he was crucified but, well, how did he die after the 3 days were up?

I was just reminded by my silly mistake in another post.

Those of you who frequent here may know I'm an athiest, but as Christianity is the dominant folk-lore of our day, I do wish to know. I'm not really looking for a debate though, just an answer.
menino
Actually, being a Christian, and tell you about my Christian view, Christ died and rose up after 3 days, and is alive in Heaven.
Hope that answers your question.
Hello_World
why 3 days? Why didn't he stay on earth then? Thanks for your answer.
loremar
I'm not sure why but if I can remember, Jesus was strolling in the world of the dead for 3 days before coming back to life. Or was it in hell? Not sure. Maybe he was having some chitchat with his good old friend Satan or maybe with Hades.

Or maybe it was traditional that someone visits the dead in the graves after 3 days. So it took Jesus 3 days before he finally revealed that it was actually his stunt double that got nailed on the cross. You know how magicians play their tricks.

I'm actually pretty much sure that most Christians don't know the answer to the questions. I used to be a very religious christian. Even go to catechism classes on summer and I was a wide bible reader as well. But I really don't know the answer to the question or maybe I just forgot.

I used to really like Holy Weeks. There's always a lot interesting going on in Holy Week that doesn't happen in ordinary days. For example, we have a superstition that nobody should get hurt on Good Friday and Black Sabbath because within those times, God is dead, and wounds would not heal. I also loved watching biblical movies like The Ten Commandments, and Crucifixion of Jesus. In my country, there are weird traditions like the panata, some people reenact the crucifixion of Jesus including the carrying of cross in seven stations and even literally nailing the actors. Interesting ha? Very Happy

Christmas and Holy Weeks used to be my favorite holidays. Though it didn't make sense to me the birth and death of Jesus because I don't believe in Jesus Christ but people always make those days very interesting, so I like them.
Ankhanu
According to Christian doctrine, Jesus did not die following his resurrection after being crucified. Rather, he bodily ascended to Heaven, literally rising from the Earth to be enveloped in cloud to live forever at the side of God.

1 Timothy 3:16 wrote:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Luke 24: 51 wrote:
And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he parted from them, and was carried up into heaven.

Acts 1:11 wrote:
The former treatise I made, O Theophilus, concerning all that Jesus began both to do and to teach, until the day in which he was received up, after that he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God: and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, [said he], ye heard from me: For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence. They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority. But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.


There is, of course, debate within Christian circles as to whether or not Jesus has died a second death. This debate, of course, includes great circling debates on the definition of what the second death even would be. In short... Jesus ain't here no more, and that's all that matters Wink
loremar
Hello_World wrote:
that Jesus was supposed to rise again for 3 days after he was crucified but, well, how did he die after the 3 days were up?

Oh, I didn't get the question. silly me.
Ankhanu wrote:
There is, of course, debate within Christian circles as to whether or not Jesus has died a second death.

I didn't know there was a debate about that. Is there?

I think the common belief of Christians is that Jesus died for three days, was strolling along with the dead and rise to life in flesh after three days was up. As far as I can remember, not sure about this but, Jesus stayed on Earth with his disciples for 40 days before he finally ascended to heaven.

Actually the controversial debate here is that, if Jesus died on Friday and found alive early in Sunday then how does that make three days? But others believe that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday and buried the next day. This is based on what Jesus said that as Jonah stayed in the belly of a fish for 3 days, the Son of Man stayed in the heart of the Earth for 3 days. But some says that this shouldn't be taken literally but rather it is allegorical.


EDIT:

Ankhanu wrote:
Acts 1:11 wrote:
The former treatise I made, O Theophilus, concerning all that Jesus began both to do and to teach, until the day in which he was received up, after that he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God: and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, [said he], ye heard from me: For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence. They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority. But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

It seem from here, it suggests that Jesus did stayed for 40 days before he ascended to heaven. Again, knowing all the allegoricalness of the bible, Jesus may have not literally stayed in 40 days.

Also knowing the allegoricalness of the bible, Jesus may have not been born or even existed. I think that's what some biblical scholars think about what Mark thought when he wrote the bible. That it wasn't about an existing man but rather Jesus in the Gospels is no more than spiritual and not real at all. In other words, a fairytale about a messiah who came down to earth to preach. The Gospel was more like a metaphor about the messiah in the prophecy. Then other authors just had a ride on the story and put on details with it making it seem like realistic.
MrTylerGreen
[quote=loremar]
Ankhanu wrote:
There is, of course, debate within Christian circles as to whether or not Jesus has died a second death.

I didn't know there was a debate about that. Is there? [quote]

no... there isn't... the bible teaches that jesus died, rose 3 days later, then ascended to heaven 40 days later without dying. It is one of the major climaxes and critical parts of the Bible when Jesus goes into heaven and on the way up gives the Great Commission. I have NEVER heard any Christian doubt that, since it is plainly written in the Bible. If a Christian does claim that he died a second time, I wouldn't even probably call them a Christian, because they would basically be saying the Bible is wrong.
Ankhanu
Second death is not referring to a physical death, but rather a spiritual death, an eternal separation from God (partially described in Revelations). It's certainly not a mainstream debate, but it does exist, primarily within Seventh Day Adventists and the like, I believe. Basically, the idea is that Jesus dying the first death does not fulfill the requirement of of God's necessary sacrifice in order to forgive mankind, as all men will die the first death; it is only in the second death, separation from God, that the sins of man might be paid for in order for those who came before, and we who have come after the sacrifice might be atoned, such that we can have God's forgiveness to live according to His law and find eternal reward. Basically, they're saying the price for our forgiveness was greater than mere physical death.
loremar
Really? that's very weird for a Christian doctrine. I didn't know that.

I thought revelation means NO MERCY. And second death in revelation means being thrown to the lake of fire, if I'm not mistaken.

I can't imagine Jesus would go that far to save everyone, as in go to hell for everyone? Revelation seems to be very clear from beginning to end. Sinners don't get any forgiveness. Not even a little bit. Only the wrath of God. Earthquakes, poisoning, conspired war, famine, disease, locusts, etc. They all get those.

I believe John was really really angry when he wrote his book. For sure.
Ankhanu
Oh, yeah, it's not standard doctrine, but it is a point of discussion/debate in some circles.
faten
actually Jesus doesn't killed by someone, the god takes him up to the sky. the one that they kill is another person seems like him. God doesn't let any body kill its prophet.
loremar
faten wrote:
actually Jesus doesn't killed by someone, the god takes him up to the sky. the one that they kill is another person seems like him. God doesn't let any body kill its prophet.

And who would be this unfortunate human sacrifice?
Ankhanu
loremar wrote:
faten wrote:
actually Jesus doesn't killed by someone, the god takes him up to the sky. the one that they kill is another person seems like him. God doesn't let any body kill its prophet.

And who would be this unfortunate human sacrifice?


(Who would be completely negating the sacrifice Jesus was supposed to have made, making the whole process moot)
portoskt
well, in next few days vatican will allow people to see some secret documents, and probably we will know some new facts about our religion
jmi256
According to the Apostles’ Creed, He died and “descended to the dead” (but I have seen this as “descended into hell”). He then rose again on the third day. I take this to mean He came back to life, and I am not quite sure how someone would read this otherwise.

Quote:
1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and life everlasting.
13. Amen.

Source = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles'_Creed

As far as the need for three days go, I am not sure of the need for three days, but the bible is full of symbolic numbers (40 days in the wilderness, 40 years in the desert, three in the Trinity, etc.). I recall the movie Pi I saw many years ago that somewhat explored the ‘sect’ (not sure if this is the correct term) of Jewish scholars who have been tried to find hidden meaning in the “code” within the bible.
johans
Quote:
why 3 days? Why didn't he stay on earth then? Thanks for your answer.


why 3 days -- I think because this was already written on the Bible. When Jesus is alive he already informed her/his followers that he will rise again after 3 days and it become true.

why didn't stay on earth -- He did not stay in earth because after 3 days that he is rise again the people who did not believes in him and those people have doubt in him become and follow him again.. being died and born again is just a guarantee that he is really the GOD... for me, He left earth for us to challenge for those who belief and for those who have doubt.
ocalhoun
johans wrote:

why 3 days -- I think because this was already written on the Bible. When Jesus is alive he already informed her/his followers that he will rise again after 3 days and it become true.

You've got your causality a little backward there.

The account of his life wasn't written down until well after all the events were already over, so there's no way that the act of writing it down could have caused it to be true...
Dialogist
Nah, the whole concept of a prophecy actually relies on chronological extrapolation. This is a bone of contention with the Pentateuch, being that Psalms appears in The Hebrew Bible, The Peshitta (Syriac Vulgate), The Christian Bible and even in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Quote:
because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.


Psalm 16:10, was written a thousand years before the birth of the Holy One (Yesu, the "false prophet) whom Moses apparently forgot to mention while he was writing books before and after his own death. This is why chronology (not causality) is important, not just in attributing attribution, but also in attributing authenticity.

Quote:

But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.


Acts 2:24 is Peter on Pentecost. Peter goes onto explain that this was a fulfilment of David. David wrote Psalm 16:10. There's some causality for you.

Finally, Christ did not die "a second death". He died once and was born twice would be more fitting to a theology which holds that He is not dead currently and even has an encore earmarked.
ocalhoun
Dialogist wrote:
Nah, the whole concept of a prophecy actually relies on chronological extrapolation. This is a bone of contention with the Pentateuch, being that Psalms appears in The Hebrew Bible, The Peshitta (Syriac Vulgate), The Christian Bible and even in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Oh, I'm well aware that the old testament was written before that time. (Though certainly not by Moses, as any biblical scholar will tell you.)

I was referring to this here:
johans wrote:

why 3 days -- I think because this was already written on the Bible. When Jesus is alive he already informed her/his followers that he will rise again after 3 days and it become true.

Which seems to imply a chronology of:
Jesus told his followers he would rise after 3 days --> it was written down in the bible --> therefore, it came true.

When really, the chronology is:
Jesus told his followers he would rise after 3 days --> it came true --> (wait a few decades) --> it gets written down.
Dialogist
ocalhoun wrote:
Dialogist wrote:
Nah, the whole concept of a prophecy actually relies on chronological extrapolation. This is a bone of contention with the Pentateuch, being that Psalms appears in The Hebrew Bible, The Peshitta (Syriac Vulgate), The Christian Bible and even in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Oh, I'm well aware that the old testament was written before that time. (Though certainly not by Moses, as any biblical scholar will tell you.)

I was referring to this here:
johans wrote:

why 3 days -- I think because this was already written on the Bible. When Jesus is alive he already informed her/his followers that he will rise again after 3 days and it become true.

Which seems to imply a chronology of:
Jesus told his followers he would rise after 3 days --> it was written down in the bible --> therefore, it came true.

When really, the chronology is:
Jesus told his followers he would rise after 3 days --> it came true --> (wait a few decades) --> it gets written down.


What you originally said was...

ocalhoun wrote:

The account of his life wasn't written down until well after all the events were already over, so there's no way that the act of writing it down could have caused it to be true...


So really, the chronology is:

David told his readers the divine one would not be decayed by death --> (wait a thousand years) --> it comes true --> gets written down (again).

PS: The Pentateuch is the Torah. The Jewish holy book. Jews believe Moses wrote the Bible. David (Psalms) appears in that. I've already quoted psalms saying that the Messiah will not be decayed by death. I was not implying that I thought Moses wrote the Bible, I was gleefully mocking those who do, whilst simultaneously aiming for the second bird; you thinking Jesus soothsaying his own intentions is prophecy, like, "I'm going to stand up now." *stands up* "Omg! Did you see that?" Or even apostles being after the event clairvoyants or somehow, the op really thought that the apostles prophesied his resurrection in hindsight...

I'm not sure where you're at with this one Ocalhoun, but it's certainly not 1000 BC with the whole point I'm making.
ocalhoun
I'm not getting dragged into an extended off-topic debate with someone trying to make out that my post says things it doesn't.
donoob88
whow, this is an old topic, hopes you still read this. well, as far as i know, Jesus died while crusified then a miracle event happened and someone stab him in the side of his stomach to ensure that he is dead.. well, if you are crusified in 3 days then you could die. hmm, F.Y.I. after a few day Jesus revived by God, and live again until God sent him in heaven.. and this is a fact that Jesus is not a God, because he is born, tired, died. God are not Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Dialogist
ocalhoun wrote:
I'm not getting dragged into an extended off-topic debate with someone trying to make out that my post says things it doesn't.


It's not my fault that you can't admit it says what it says it says and it's not my fault that you are (once again) trying to make this into an ad hominem issue "With someone who". The topic is hardly off topic and I do not appreciate your tone nor accusations. Keep those to yourself. If you find my discussion beneath you, just simply ignore it, rather than attempting to victimise me for "doing something" (old tricks die hard, huh?) when it was you who said something completely ill-researched and then disingenuously attempted to change it and then blamed me for pointing out your error.

In closing, the apostles did not make up the resurrection of Jesus being prophecised by Daniel a thousand years earlier. So the neither the chronology nor the causality is in question. You throwing your toys out of the pram will not change the relevance of that argument.
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