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The End of Men?






By your own observations, who seems to be "running the world" right now
Men. Women still have little influence.
10%
 10%  [ 1 ]
Men, but they are in decline as women gain influence.
50%
 50%  [ 5 ]
Men and women are exactly equal and seem to be maintaining this balance.
30%
 30%  [ 3 ]
Women, but their advantage will not last long.
10%
 10%  [ 1 ]
Women. Men have since lost their historical advantage.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 10

quex
First, read this: The End of Men - The Atlantic.com

I had not realized this was happening - or, per the article, that it has already happened in many places. The preference for boys children in multiple Asian cultures was an often-discussed topic in my secondary education, and the facts and statistics still ring in my ears. China's one child policy would turn the country into a massive bachelor party. Korean preferences threatened to force the importation of brides from other countries. Female infants would be murdered in countries that didn't have the technology to detect sex before birth; in advanced nations, they would simply be aborted during pregnancy. It was going to be an apocalypse, they told us.

And now, we have the numbers in hand... and girls are the preferred sex. I would hardly have believed this were true before the recession, but the article covers many of the reasons that our economic crisis is accelerating the switch from a world that relies on men's traditional advantages, strength and aggression, to one that requires more feminine attributes, such as flexibility and sensitivity.

I don't want to turn this into a gender war, but... do you feel this is occurring in your local social environment? Do you notice women achieving more than men in life around you? I have to say I don't see it particularly well where I live in the southwestern USA. I think the genders here are in near equilibrium in all aspects of economic and social standing. Maybe I'm missing something. ._.
deanhills
In Canada it's the same as in the US. In the Middle East I've found female students at University to be brighter than their male equivalent. Also, for every male student there are 10 female students at University. You would find it quite novel to see female students having babies as they work through their education. Male students are also married while they are studying. There is a very strong family support system that takes care of their families while they are completing their education. The challenge for women is however that only those who go overseas to further their education after graduation stand a good chance to make progress locally. Women can't travel as men can so only a scattering of women get to further their education abroad. So once they are ready for careers, it's usually the male students who go that much further as they have plenty of support to further their education abroad. Even though some of them have been less promising as students during their University years. So in balance where I am, women seem to be brighter, but men more powerful and not all of them as bright as their female counterparts at University. I think this is in a process of changing however. For example, daughters of very wealthy Sheikhs studying abroad and returning to real powerful positions.

Another factor that is interesting in the UAE is that it has the highest divorce rate in the Middle East at 34%. (Source: http://www.emirates247.com/news/emirates/divorce-rate-in-dubai-falls-2010-07-25-1.270577)
quex
deanhills wrote:
In Canada it's the same as in the US. In the Middle East I've found female students at University to be brighter than their male equivalent. Also, for every male student there are 10 female students at University.


You say this about the Middle East? I imagine this would be a surprise to the average US citizen; we are often fed (and our media reinforces) an understanding of most middle eastern nations as restricting their female citizens to domestic life, limiting their education, not allowing them to attend university, etc.
One of the bigger ways of garnering support for the invasion of Afghanistan was to show how women and girls were kept from attending school.

Quote:
You would find it quite novel to see female students having babies as they work through their education.


You mean as in they don't do this, or you imagine I would be surprised to see that they DO have babies while working through their education? This is actually not uncommon in the USA as well, with some students having children as early as high school, although this is socially frowned upon.

Quote:
The challenge for women is however that only those who go overseas to further their education after graduation stand a good chance to make progress locally.


Sorry, my brain can't pick up your intended inflection from the typed syntax.... do you mean "locally" in the overseas destination where they study, or locally to where they began in the middle east? Either way, do you think the women who do manage to study abroad for further education are more tempted to remain overseas in pursuit of a career, or is there a strong draw for them to return home to establish themselves after finishing education?

Quote:
Women can't travel as men can so only a scattering of women get to further their education abroad.


Why not? Is it a moral/social issue, or a legal one...? Harder to get passports...?

Quote:
Another factor that is interesting in the UAE is that it has the highest divorce rate in the Middle East at 34%. (Source: http://www.emirates247.com/news/emirates/divorce-rate-in-dubai-falls-2010-07-25-1.270577)


o.o Woah, that's not something I'd ever heard of before. So peaceable, legal divorces are common in the UAE? Again, in America, we only ever hear the worst, most degenerate stories of husbands selling their wives into slavery or attacking them with acid or things like that through the sieve of the media, so hearing of legal divorces at such a high rate is completely new piece of information to me.
deanhills
quex wrote:
deanhills wrote:
In Canada it's the same as in the US. In the Middle East I've found female students at University to be brighter than their male equivalent. Also, for every male student there are 10 female students at University.


You say this about the Middle East? I imagine this would be a surprise to the average US citizen; we are often fed (and our media reinforces) an understanding of most middle eastern nations as restricting their female citizens to domestic life, limiting their education, not allowing them to attend university, etc.
One of the bigger ways of garnering support for the invasion of Afghanistan was to show how women and girls were kept from attending school.
There is lots of room for improvement here of course, but women are very much supported with regard to the best education that is available to them. They still go on with marrying and having children, but that does not phase them at all and is actually regarded socially acceptable, more so than for them to be single. Quite often one would learn that someone could not make the final exam as she had a baby, but would do a resit later, and then pass the exam.

Problem however is after the final exam has been passed as there aren't that many opportunities available to women as they are to male graduates. Things are changing however. Along the lines of progress. On a realistic note however, UAE is more progressive than some of its neighbours. So probably not a good idea to take the UAE as a typical example for the Middle East.

Quote:
Sorry, my brain can't pick up your intended inflection from the typed syntax.... do you mean "locally" in the overseas destination where they study, or locally to where they began in the middle east? Either way, do you think the women who do manage to study abroad for further education are more tempted to remain overseas in pursuit of a career, or is there a strong draw for them to return home to establish themselves after finishing education?
This was my own question as well, and they always return to the UAE. Rarely that they would stay abroad. One of the reasons could be the overwhelming sense of family they have in comparison with us who are more of individualists and once we have completed our schooling get to leave our families. They never leave their families. I think for Emiratis who travel abroad, it is completely novel to experience a culture where the individual is so much separated from his/her family. Family is BIG stuff. Bigger than we can understand.

Quote:
Why not? Is it a moral/social issue, or a legal one...? Harder to get passports...?
Mixture of cultural and financial. Culturally she has to be accompanied by either a husband, father or brother. If she comes from a very wealthy family, it would be easy to set up a "family home" by buying/renting a property overseas - in your usual establishments such as London or any of your big cities in Canada or the US. But if she comes from a family with limited means and father, brothers and husband can't travel with her and help set her up abroad, she is stuck. Financial support is key to her being able to travel abroad for long periods of time.

Quote:
Quote:
Another factor that is interesting in the UAE is that it has the highest divorce rate in the Middle East at 34%. (Source: http://www.emirates247.com/news/emirates/divorce-rate-in-dubai-falls-2010-07-25-1.270577)


o.o Woah, that's not something I'd ever heard of before. So peaceable, legal divorces are common in the UAE? Again, in America, we only ever hear the worst, most degenerate stories of husbands selling their wives into slavery or attacking them with acid or things like that through the sieve of the media, so hearing of legal divorces at such a high rate is completely new piece of information to me.
Agreed. That completely bowled me over. I actually had to go check up on it to believe it. With my limited experience here it does make sense to a certain degree. Your average family is very protective of their women folk. It's not like letting go of her once she gets married, they still are connected. If there is some disagreement or reason that the family may not like the husband, i.e. feel he is not looking after her the way he should, that could be reason enough for getting the marriage annulled. Having said that, it is not that easy to get divorced over here. Takes plenty of effort and lots of hard work for that to happen.
ocalhoun
I think the misunderstandings here might stem from seeing the whole middle east as a homogeneous culture.

In reality, there are big differences between, say, Afghanistan and the UAE.
deanhills
ocalhoun wrote:
I think the misunderstandings here might stem from seeing the whole middle east as a homogeneous culture.

In reality, there are big differences between, say, Afghanistan and the UAE.
ENORMOUS differences. Like night and day! Even Yemen is enormously different. Oman is a bit closer and maybe in some ways a little further advanced with appointing women to strategic power positions. Saudi is a very wealthy country, MUCH wealthier than the UAE, but women there are at a huge disadvantage. I'm sure people must pick up on them not being allowed to drive cars for example. They are also not allowed to attend certain social functions with their husbands. Even tough for female expats to visit Saudi. Freedom of movement of expats in Saudi is very restricted.
therimalaya
Women will start fertilizing themselves. since natural always finds its way. Women have both X and Y chromosome, Somehow they will manage to generate new life...
Peterssidan
therimalaya wrote:
Women will start fertilizing themselves. since natural always finds its way. Women have both X and Y chromosome, Somehow they will manage to generate new life...
You mean by cloning? That will not work in the long run. And by the way woman only have X chromosomes.
cresvale
Men and Women are diferrent, so they have their own roles.
ocalhoun
therimalaya wrote:
Women will start fertilizing themselves. since natural always finds its way.

Why?
Nature already found a way, and that way works so well that the world population is now out of control.
quex
Peterssidan wrote:
therimalaya wrote:
Women will start fertilizing themselves. since natural always finds its way. Women have both X and Y chromosome, Somehow they will manage to generate new life...
You mean by cloning? That will not work in the long run. And by the way woman only have X chromosomes.


I was gonna jump on the X chromosome thing, but you beat me to it. Thanks. ^_^b

On a side note, has anyone else heard this theory (or has it been proven?) that the Y chromosome integral to the creation of the male gender is merely an incomplete X chromosome? Something about the earliest forms of life being genderless and asexual, until some very early mutation created men. I'd like to learn more, but am not sure about what to search for.

Cloning, interestingly, is not even necessary as a human technology for a single gender to reproduce. While it becomes increasingly rare to successfully achieve a viable organism as you address more and more complex species, parthenogenesis occurs across a wide variety of lifeforms. (Not to mention all bacteria.)
quex
ocalhoun wrote:
therimalaya wrote:
Women will start fertilizing themselves. since natural always finds its way.

Why?
Nature already found a way, and that way works so well that the world population is now out of control.


I understand the world's 7 billionth person is statistically expected to be born this week.
deanhills
quex wrote:
ocalhoun wrote:
therimalaya wrote:
Women will start fertilizing themselves. since natural always finds its way.

Why?
Nature already found a way, and that way works so well that the world population is now out of control.


I understand the world's 7 billionth person is statistically expected to be born this week.
I noticed that going around in the news too. Particularly concerns about Sub-Saharan countries tripling their population if something is not done about that soon.
Very Happy
ocalhoun
quex wrote:

On a side note, has anyone else heard this theory (or has it been proven?) that the Y chromosome integral to the creation of the male gender is merely an incomplete X chromosome? Something about the earliest forms of life being genderless and asexual, until some very early mutation created men. I'd like to learn more, but am not sure about what to search for.

I'd suspect that originally it was bi-gender, with both of them exchanging genetic material to the other, and then both reproducing... (And some organisms still do it that way.)
...Then somewhere along the line, one comes along that performs only a male function, not the female... This gives it an advantage in that it still spreads its genes, but doesn't have to go through the energy and resource cost of reproduction. After that, it becomes a matter of the ratio of one to the other -- if too many are male, it will reduce the chances of a male passing on its genes... if too many are female, the genetic advantage of being male becomes very high, and it will trend towards making more males...

And, of course, it sticks around because it allows for evolutionary advantages of being both more diverse and more adaptable to change, as opposed to cloned populations.
deanhills
Would be nice if women could be infertile for at least a little while however. 7 billion people are a little over the top.
bukaida
deanhills wrote:
Would be nice if women could be infertile for at least a little while however. 7 billion people are a little over the top.


If men could be infertile for some moment ( Which is a lot easier ) it could stop the population in a better way. A woman once conceives, remain safe for atleast next nine months. Men do not have any such restrictions. Very Happy
deanhills
bukaida wrote:
deanhills wrote:
Would be nice if women could be infertile for at least a little while however. 7 billion people are a little over the top.


If men could be infertile for some moment ( Which is a lot easier ) it could stop the population in a better way. A woman once conceives, remain safe for atleast next nine months. Men do not have any such restrictions. Very Happy
Excellent point Bukaida! Laughing
mahirh
that must be like 7 billion parasites for earth!
quex
deanhills wrote:
bukaida wrote:
deanhills wrote:
Would be nice if women could be infertile for at least a little while however. 7 billion people are a little over the top.


If men could be infertile for some moment ( Which is a lot easier ) it could stop the population in a better way. A woman once conceives, remain safe for atleast next nine months. Men do not have any such restrictions. :D
Excellent point Bukaida! :lol:


Eh-HEM.

As a woman, I'd like to point out that women are technically only fertile for about half of the month ANYWAY (during ovulation). Men of good health, meanwhile, can easily conceive a child once every 24 hours... or even more frequently, if there are willing women available. :roll:

Additionally, CONDOMS. Condoms, condoms, condoms. Seriously.
Wanna have sex? Go for it. It's fun. BUT USE A DAMN CONDOM.
deanhills
quex wrote:
Additionally, CONDOMS. Condoms, condoms, condoms. Seriously.
Wanna have sex? Go for it. It's fun. BUT USE A DAMN CONDOM.
Great education but can't help but think it is not getting to the right people and maybe the message has to be a different one for different communities. It is usually the poorest who are in this endless loop and they won't have a clue what a condom is.
Bikerman
Huh? Of course they know what a condom is. The poorest people live in South Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa, not Pluto. They might lack education, but they are not stupid.

Condoms are available in most of the countries of the world - providing the Catholic Church is not too powerful. What they need is FREE condoms..
Dementei
This thread reminds me of Children of Men. I liek dat movie.
quex
Bikerman wrote:
Huh? Of course they know what a condom is. The poorest people live in South Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa, not Pluto. They might lack education, but they are not stupid.


...you overestimate the familiarity of some of these isolated populations with modern contraceptives. Misunderstanding of the intent, application, and effectiveness of condoms is a persistent headache among health outreach programs worldwide. From South Africa:

Quote:
The 'condom campaign' must also contend with an endemic, abysmally low level of education and understanding... one of my sisters trained as a community health nurse in Crossroads and what was to become Khayelitsha townships, outside Cape Town. She told us she'd gotten into terrible trouble through using a broomstick to demonstrate to men how they should put on a condom. She swore they were coming back, highly indignant, to report that their wives or girlfriends were pregnant, "even though, every night, we put the condom on the broomstick - just like you showed us!"
~from here

I'm not saying these populations are stupid, but that their cultures and access to as basic a scientific understanding as "male sperm meeting female egg causes conception" leaves many of them without the right approach to employ even as simple a method as a condom in the search for contraception.

Quote:
Condoms are available in most of the countries of the world - providing the Catholic Church is not too powerful. What they need is FREE condoms..


Free condoms are readily provided to many populations around the world, both in affluent and impoverished regions. You can get them for free in high schools throughout the USA, private and charity clinics in the Congo, Uganda, Zimbabwe, through a massive and ongoing public outreach in Thailand, through both clinics and one's employer in India, and they are explicitly targeted at the sex-worker populations in Indonesia and Sri Lanka, just to name a few. They are furthermore cheap as dirt in practically all impoverished nations, where they are subsidized and distributed by the billions by international HIV/AIDS charities to both gay and straight persons. Even in some affluent nations, you can find condoms for pennies. I purchased a dozen singles in different colors and hilarious styles (including a memorable one labeled as "VERY SUPER" printed with a knockoff of Sonic the hedgehog) to send to friends in the states while I was living in Nagoya, Japan in 2003-4... despite not being able to buy a carton of milk for less than the equivalent of $5 over there, I don't think I ever spent more than ~40 yen, somewhere between 25 to 40 cents USD, for a condom.

Availability is furthermore rarely or not at all influenced by the presence of the Catholic church... rather, the power the church wields in the local social order often persuades individuals to reject the use of condoms. The biggest problem, however, remains the unwillingness of men around the world to interrupt their sexual experience or diminish their pleasure, however slightly, with the use of a condom.
quex
AND BECAUSE I FINALLY HAVE A RELEVANT PLACE TO PUT THIS:

deanhills
Great show Quex! Laughing
quex wrote:
The biggest problem, however, remains the unwillingness of men around the world to interrupt their sexual experience or diminish their pleasure, however slightly, with the use of a condom.
Agreed. As well as intoxication. When people are drunk or under the influence of drugs, their sense of responsibility could be a bit diminished.

Dementei wrote:
This thread reminds me of Children of Men. I liek dat movie.

That was a great movie with some great actors in it too.

Very Happy
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