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Occupy Wall st.





c'tair
You can read all the news here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=wall+street+protests&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=TDG&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=np&prmd=imvnsu&source=univ&tbm=nws&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=lEWPTqz9EYPa0QGo95w3&ved=0CDoQqAI&biw=1280&bih=866

I'm curious as to people's opinions on this topic are.

I'll admit, I haven't researched it in depth and while I agree that there is quite some corporate greed that must be stopped, a lot of the protesters are simply... whiners.
I see pictures of people holding up signs like:
- I have 120k student debt
- I lost my job
- I applied for 20 jobs, no one called back
- I have no insurance
- I have a baby on the way

Which to me don't make sense at all because all those points can be summarized as "I made some bad decisions and I expect for someone to take care of it".
Seriously, these pictures are taken in a lit bathroom using iPhones. I'd say having electricity, running water and iPhone already put you in the top 20% of the whole world when it comes to income/amenities and your student debt and baby on the way are your problems because they are consequences of your actions. As for losing a job/not being able to find a job - look harder, try harder, you live in America, not North Korea.

Sorry for the small rant, but that's my opinion, what is yours?
coolclay
I agree with many of your points, for the most part they are whiners to some degree. I also agree with many of the issues the protestors are trying to raise. We all have issues in our lives and trying to point the finger and blame someone else is just like back in grade school and won't help anyone. No one makes life easy, the government will not help you, the government can't even help itself at this point in it's decay. I'd tell the protestors to stop wasting their time, and make there own lives and their own success instead of waiting for someone to bail them out. They are just as bad as the bailed out banks and corporations that begged to be bailed out, the only difference is the government helped them, and won't help the individual, and I think that is one of their biggest complaints which I whole heartedly agree with.

The government's job is not to buy out corporations with my money, this is 100% unconstitutional. Especially considering the feds don't even have the money to loan out. How can you loan loaned money, that's just a self defeating hole that will eventually catch up with us at some point in the game. It's like the feds saying do as I say not as I do.

Neither the protestors nor the wall street money wragglers have the answer. The protestors just want to b1tch but have no answers (except maybe Anarchy), and the wall street money wragglers just want to go about as business as usual. Neither will save our country.
Hello_World
I think that if we are all apathetic and don't put forward our point of view then government and big business just takes away as much as they can from us.

I think that our democracy is in dire straits if we can't participate. And don't try to tell me that we all participate by voting... lol.

What if Afican Americans, women, gay people never protested the way they were being treated?
ocalhoun
If it develops into a coherent anti-corporate-corruption movement, I'll be glad...

But there are two big obstacles I see...
First is the one c'tair saw, that many of them seem to just be whining about problems that they caused for themselves or problems that nobody can fix for them... If this aspect of it grows, the movement will be dismissed as irrelevant.
The other danger is that the movement will be commandeered by an already established interest. (Much like the tea party and extreme conservatives.) If I were a member of that movement, I would be very leery about cooperation with any outside interest, even unions.
There are plenty of organizations out there that would love to collect the energy from that movement and channel it to their own purposes.

It's essential that this movement develop a clear agenda and goals before either of those problems can fully develop.
Afaceinthematrix
120k in student debt but you cannot find a job? This is one of the biggest problems with this country. Far too many people go to college. In fact, we have this stupid ideal that everyone should go to college - even if you're not smart. It gives everyone false hope that they can go to college in make something of their lives when they're really just failures. I've seen so many high school kids failing or just passing that have this hope and desire to go to college so that they can end up just wasting four years of their lives getting wasted, getting laid (I have nothing against either of those things; I enjoy both. However, it shouldn't be your primary concern in college), and joining fraternities just to earn their degree in leisure studies so that they can actually be worse off than someone who spent those four years getting work experience. Plus, they're 120k in debt. I recently talked to someone who wasn't very smart who just got a degree in Asian Culture and Literature. All he was qualified to do was sell mattresses - a job he got during college and that has no educational requirements. All I said to him was, "Asian culture and literature? Oh yeah, I forgot that I needed someone with that expertise working for my company!" This guy had big dreams of making huge money but was making slightly more than minimum wage. Why was that? His degree is useless. In my opinion, most people get useless degrees in things like creative righting, recreational and leisure studies (I actually met someone with this degree once), religious studies, women's studies etc. (maybe offer these types of classes for people who have an interest and just want to take an extracurricular class, but to major in it? Really?). We really need to get rid of this ridiculous idea that college is for everyone when it should just be for the intelligent people (it will actually help a lot of people out) and then get rid of all of these stupid degrees that are rather quite worthless. My sister got her degree in "Christian Family Counseling." What is she qualified to do? She works in a pet store. Big surprise...
Hello_World
They have actually been trying to push that a bit lately in Australia... because it is definately true here that many of the wealthy people are tradies who have got enough experience to set up their own business in their trade, or people in mining.

Mind you, degrees in tourism and recreation/outdoor education/leisure are not as silly as you think, that is one of the ones that is vocation focused and needed in reality...
Afaceinthematrix
Hello_World wrote:
They have actually been trying to push that a bit lately in Australia... because it is definately true here that many of the wealthy people are tradies who have got enough experience to set up their own business in their trade, or people in mining.

Mind you, degrees in tourism and recreation/outdoor education/leisure are not as silly as you think, that is one of the ones that is vocation focused and needed in reality...


Important they may be, university material they are not. Those skills can easily be taught during in-job training or at a trade school. But at a university it is ridiculous given that universities are supposed to be places of higher learning. Hell, they should even teach those things in high school to students who could benefit from it. I've always argued that way too many resources are spent on the failures in the school system in my country. In California, we have a California High School Exit Exam. The test is an absolute joke. There is an English and a mathematics section. Both are out of 500 (if I remember correctly; it's been about 7 years since I've taken it) and a 350 is required to pass. I scored a perfect on both sections. The English section is basic reading skills and the hardest math problem is something like 2X+7=21 and you're required to solve for X. Yet a huge percentage of people fail these tests. Schools are required to spend an insane amount of funds on preparation classes to put these people in so that they can retake the test an unlimited amount of times.* These same people (who are the same people who ditch class habitually to smoke pot) keep failing these prep classes and then the test. However, this is America where everyone gets to go to college! These are the same people who are told they can go to college and become millionaires because of their education (despite the fact that they're failures)! The sad part is that schools are forced to cut programs from the smart kids and the average kids to fund these failures taking trivial classes over and over that they don't care about just so that these losers can feel important and waste money and time in college (many colleges are partially funded by the government and so they're also wasting my money). I say no. Why don't we give some of these people a broom or a burger and spatula and see if we can find any skills in them that are meaningful to society? Maybe one of them will know a bit about recreation and can work for a travel agency someday.

*And the worst part is that even if you never pass the test, the school will let you graduate anyways. The reasoning is that multiple school districts got sued in LA, Ca because the moronic children of these moronic parents failed the test repeatedly and obviously it's the schools fault that they don't have a magic wand that can get these morons to pass the trivial test. I say that if you fail it you're given the broom to see how well you can contribute to society in a meaningful way instead of giving you false hope that will end up hurting everybody else when you waste my tax dollars in college and then expect us to bail you out of your student loans.
c'tair
ocalhoun wrote:
Pony Post


Yes, same here. I do know that there is a lot of people in those protests that are actually fighting the good fight. I just hope, as you do, that they won't get either swamped by whiners or hijacked by some radicals, which happens all too often as we've seen from history.

It would be awesome if this strike was as successful as other strikes in history, but it's got so much going against it - media propaganda, freeloaders, covert government agents, etc.

@Afaceinthematrix - Damn dude, I agree so much. My own experience echos your words: I'm doing my 2nd semester in a community college now. During my first semester I took some necessary but bullcrap classes like english 101, speach, anthropology (all intro and I'm a compsci major) which anyone can take. Well, the fail rate at them was over 50%. It's actually funny because the people that most often failed them were english majors, liberal arts majors, woman studies majors etc. and the people that passed were compsci majors, business majors, science majors etc. Now during my 2nd semester when I'm taking 200 level courses and all the people in my classes are either business, math or compsci majors, not one of them is failing.

It's so easy to spot someone who is in college because they wanna learn, get that degree and use it and people who go to college just so their parents will pestering them or to get laid. Why is the latter group allowed to repeat the same courses for years using tax payer money when they evidently don't give a damn about completing that course?
ocalhoun
c'tair wrote:
ocalhoun wrote:
Pony Post



Oh come on!
I was doing good! I hadn't posted a single pony! Didn't even mention ponies.


'Pony Post' humph. *grumble grumble*
Quote:

Yes, same here. I do know that there is a lot of people in those protests that are actually fighting the good fight. I just hope, as you do, that they won't get either swamped by whiners or hijacked by some radicals, which happens all too often as we've seen from history.

Hm... Hijacked by radicals, eh?
Idea
I could be one of those hijacking radicals!
What do you say my chances of getting them to rally behind the black flag are?
Hello_World
Quote:

Important they may be, university material they are not. Those skills can easily be taught during in-job training or at a trade school.


So you don't think they should have business then either? Cause that is what it essentially is, business with a tourism major... in one of the biggest businesses around. Maybe it should be taught at tafe though.

Personally, I found that those who can't cut it all drop out at first year. Either they pull themselves together or they quit. Uni is too hard to cruise through.

Don't you have a scoring system to sort through the chaff? You get perfect scores and have your pick of courses, another scrapes the bottom of the barrel and is only offered the easier courses?

I kind of believe in this funny idea of a right to education for all. (Although I think it is about time they stopped kidding everyone that this is the one true path to success.)

But as this is digressing the whole thread now, I will stop posting on this topic on this thread...
Bondings
I thought the movement was to bring into attention the growing inequality of the majority of the people (especially the bottom part) compared to the few (1%) rich people that own pretty much everything in the USA. Even though the USA is the richest country in the world, most of that wealth is in the hands of just a few people, while the majority is struggling, sometimes with 2 jobs on minimum wage (which is very low in the USA) just to pay the basic bills.

While the USA always had a huge income/wealth inequality, the difference between rich and poor has been increasing almost exponentially lately. This inequality has been rising in most countries in the world, but usually not as much as in the USA. The average income may be increasing constantly, it's only the top that is getting (huge) increases; the biggest part is barely changing.

Vanity Fair wrote:
It’s no use pretending that what has obviously happened has not in fact happened. The upper 1 percent of Americans are now taking in nearly a quarter of the nation’s income every year. In terms of wealth rather than income, the top 1 percent control 40 percent. Their lot in life has improved considerably. Twenty-five years ago, the corresponding figures were 12 percent and 33 percent. One response might be to celebrate the ingenuity and drive that brought good fortune to these people, and to contend that a rising tide lifts all boats. That response would be misguided. While the top 1 percent have seen their incomes rise 18 percent over the past decade, those in the middle have actually seen their incomes fall. For men with only high-school degrees, the decline has been precipitous—12 percent in the last quarter-century alone. All the growth in recent decades—and more—has gone to those at the top.



http://mapscroll.blogspot.com/2009/04/is-us-becoming-third-world-country.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1

Comparing the citizens of the wealthiest country in the world to the rest of the world and especially the poorest countries in the world is completely not fair. Hey don't complain, you have running water, electricity and food, and the poor children in Africa and North Korea are dying from a lack of food. Honestly? Just shut up as long as the situation is better than in the poorest countries in the world?
deanhills
What you say Bondings is right on the mark for me. People are even saying that within a few years time there won't be a middle class any longer as their money will also be in the hands of the 1% wealthy.
Very Happy
ocalhoun
Bondings wrote:
I thought the movement was to bring into attention the growing inequality of the majority of the people (especially the bottom part) compared to the few (1%) rich people that own pretty much everything in the USA. Even though the USA is the richest country in the world, most of that wealth is in the hands of just a few people, while the majority is struggling, sometimes with 2 jobs on minimum wage (which is very low in the USA) just to pay the basic bills.

Very true, and I hope they can actually consolidate around such a message, and base an agenda off of it.

Also, I'm afraid your graph, bad as it looks, doesn't really show the problem as well as it can be shown...
The gains from recent economic growth have gone almost entirely to the already wealthy:


In addition to the easy to see income problems, the distribution of statically held wealth is also extremely unequal:
deanhills
Looks as though the Italians are also agitating against corporate greed:
Quote:
ROME (AP) — Italian riot police fired tear gas and water cannons Saturday in Rome as violent protesters hijacked a peaceful demonstration against corporate greed, smashing bank windows, torching cars and hurling bottles.

Elsewhere, hundreds of thousands nicknamed "the indignant" marched without incident in cities across Europe, as the "Occupy Wall Street" protests linked up with long-running demonstrations against European governments' austerity measures.

Source: Yahoo!News
c'tair
ocalhoun wrote:
c'tair wrote:
ocalhoun wrote:
Pony Post



Oh come on!
I was doing good! I hadn't posted a single pony! Didn't even mention ponies.


'Pony Post' humph. *grumble grumble*
Quote:

Yes, same here. I do know that there is a lot of people in those protests that are actually fighting the good fight. I just hope, as you do, that they won't get either swamped by whiners or hijacked by some radicals, which happens all too often as we've seen from history.

Hm... Hijacked by radicals, eh?
Idea
I could be one of those hijacking radicals!
What do you say my chances of getting them to rally behind the black flag are?


I wasn't talking about that sort of radicalism, I was talking about something a bright man once talked about: how almost every leftist movement gets hijacked and turned into one huge circleje... something. You'll notice that history is full of these movements - most of them have had some victories but they simply don't matter. What happened to to deep ecology? What happened to grass roots movements? What happened to hippies?

Sure, the Civil Rights movement succeeded, but how many other movements failed?

I recently stumbled upon a tumlr which had pictures of the 99% folks. While there were a few genuine cases where a person was screwed by giant corporation, the great majority of the people were complaining about how they were promised jobs and now they can't afford their car and house payments or that they have so much student debt accumulated for taking... English at Uni and that no one wants to hire them. Or that some people have diseases and that the healthcare in the US doesn't cover or want them.

I mean, the world is so much more free than it was 20 years ago. No one forced those people to take unimaginable loans or buy stuff they can't afford or to stay in a country where there is no universal healthcare - they can get a passport and move somewhere else. C'mon, that's what created America in the first place - people didn't like their current situation so they moved to the US.
Afaceinthematrix
Hello_World wrote:

So you don't think they should have business then either? Cause that is what it essentially is, business with a tourism major... in one of the biggest businesses around. Maybe it should be taught at tafe though.


Not really. At most universities, business majors are complete idiots; their curriculum is a joke. The business department should just be a subset of the economics department because all business really takes besides an understanding of economics is certain people skills - which could be taught in a few classes aside economics classes. So I think business majors should really be economics majors with a specialization in business.

Quote:

Personally, I found that those who can't cut it all drop out at first year. Either they pull themselves together or they quit. Uni is too hard to cruise through.

Don't you have a scoring system to sort through the chaff? You get perfect scores and have your pick of courses, another scrapes the bottom of the barrel and is only offered the easier courses?


No. Not really. You get to choose courses here based on how many units you've taken. So, essentially, how long you've been at the school. Fourth years generally choose classes before third years who choose classes before second years, etc.
deanhills
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
So I think business majors should really be economics majors with a specialization in business.
I totally agree. Particularly when it gets to an MBA. People should have a minimum number of years in business MANAGEMENT before they are allowed to register. So many Universities are allowing students to apply immediately after their graduation, using this to cream in funds. A large percentage of the value of an MBA is shared experiences on the business managerial level. So if we have mostly freshly graduated students, who don't have any experience, that experience is lost. Also, those who teach should be in senior managerial positions from the industry itself, so one inevitably finds that the the program uses academic staff that has been employed to teach undergraduates "on the cheap" to teach post-graduate MBA programs.
sledge32
I support the protest but i dont think much good will come out of it. The rich and greedy controls everything and they will continue to do think their way to benefit themselves.
deanhills
sledge32 wrote:
I support the protest but i dont think much good will come out of it. The rich and greedy controls everything and they will continue to do think their way to benefit themselves.
Good point! They'd probably be good at buying everything, including city officials to get rid of protestors. Now if we only can get some of that 1% to be sympathetic towards to cause, of some of that 1% to start a new Party in the US. Who knows, there may be some opportunities opening up, and I guess it will be some of the 1% who will recognize it first.
paul_indo
From what I have seen and read about it I don't believe this in any way represents the average person.

I have also seen news reports about companies seeking workers and being unable to fill those jobs.

OK, the pay may be a bit low and the hours not what I want but hell, if you haven't got a job maybe you should take it untill better is available.

Westerners are spoilt beyond belief but generally to stupid to realise it.

Spend a few years in the developing world and these Whiners would have to take any a job so they could eat.

It's time that the western world realised that wealth is a privilege, not a right.
deanhills
paul_indo wrote:
From what I have seen and read about it I don't believe this in any way represents the average person.

I have also seen news reports about companies seeking workers and being unable to fill those jobs.

OK, the pay may be a bit low and the hours not what I want but hell, if you haven't got a job maybe you should take it untill better is available.

Westerners are spoilt beyond belief but generally to stupid to realise it.

Spend a few years in the developing world and these Whiners would have to take any a job so they could eat.

It's time that the western world realised that wealth is a privilege, not a right.
Sounds a bit harsh to me paul_indo. The Big Banks in the US have been responsible for defrauding their clients of billions of US dollars to the extent that even a good portion of the Middle Class is now poor as well. The worst of this happened during the melt down at the end of 2008. When Big Banks are allowed to sell investment products to their clients, when they know those products are high risk and of poor quality, AND no one gets fired, Bank sales people get to keep their millions in commission AND those Banks even get bailed out by tax payers, something is really very rotten and wrong somewhere.

I think those guys have a very good reason for being unhappy and fortunately they are in a country where they can exercise their constitutional right to protest.
ocalhoun
paul_indo wrote:

I have also seen news reports about companies seeking workers and being unable to fill those jobs.

OK, the pay may be a bit low and the hours not what I want but hell, if you haven't got a job maybe you should take it untill better is available.

Or, let the market do its work, and let employers realize that offering more pay and benefits will attract more and better qualified workers.


Just because they're better off than most of the world, doesn't mean they should settle for only a tiny fraction of what their labor is actually worth.

Refer back to the graphs above... The US has had huge growth recently, but almost none of that extra money went to the average working people. Why shouldn't they share in the prosperity that their efforts are creating?


(And, absent a socialist redistribution of wealth, the way they share in that prosperity is by refusing to work unless paid higher wages. It's how capitalism works. Many complain about 'wage slavery' where workers are forced by their needs to work sub-par jobs... but there is another aspect, where companies who are hiring (and often forced to hire new people to satisfy their needs) are forced to pay more than they would like for that labor. -- ie, the labor market cuts both ways.)
paul_indo
[quote="ocalhoun"]
paul_indo wrote:

Just because they're better off than most of the world, doesn't mean they should settle for only a tiny fraction of what their labor is actually worth.


The market decides "what their labour is worth" in the real world. Western countries also have laws stipulating minimum wages so if these people feel that they are worth more but no one is prepared to pay what they want maybe they are wrong.

True, the banks were totaly irresponsible and a protest is appropriate but I believe it is time to turn that effort into working towards change. They can join groups or even form a new group and give their time to pushing for real change through political and social media but sitting around a park is unlikely to achieve anything, it is a great way to draw attention to a problem but then the actual work needs to be done to fix that problem. Or do they expect some one else to do that?

Also many of these protestors are calling for the whole capitalist system to be dismantled, a bit over the top I think.

One jerk had a sign saying he would work for $78,000 a year or some absurd figure. I'm sorry bro but no one wants you for that amount your attitude shows you would probably not be worth it.

You may believe my comments are harsh but it is a harsh world and westerners have been protected from the reality of what their work is really worth by government policy and although I don't totaly disagree with that approach it has not been done in a sustainable way and the realities of world economics are causing massive problems throughout the developed world partly due to peoples inflated expectations.

Look at the expectations of the average american today compared with 2 or 3 generations ago and look at all the "toys" most people take for granted these days as their right to own all this stuff.

It is good that life is easier now but it is not a right and it took hard work to make it this way.
deanhills
paul_indo wrote:
You may believe my comments are harsh but it is a harsh world and westerners have been protected from the reality of what their work is really worth by government policy and although I don't totaly disagree with that approach it has not been done in a sustainable way and the realities of world economics are causing massive problems throughout the developed world partly due to peoples inflated expectations.

Look at the expectations of the average american today compared with 2 or 3 generations ago and look at all the "toys" most people take for granted these days as their right to own all this stuff.

It is good that life is easier now but it is not a right and it took hard work to make it this way.
Probably not harsh, more like judgmental. Why stereotype westerners? Who are you comparing them with? Asians? Africans? Easterners?

As far as I know there are plenty of Westerners who are working very hard. And the US is anything but a socialist Government.
ocalhoun
paul_indo wrote:

The market decides "what their labour is worth" in the real world.

The market decides what the labor is worth in the capitalist world... Which doesn't match up with the 'real world' in all cases.
There are other theories though, such as 'a worker is entitled to the fruits of his own labor'.

If a worker's contributions to a company make $300,000 for the company, but the market price for this labor is $100,000... is this fair?
Quote:

One jerk had a sign saying he would work for $78,000 a year or some absurd figure. I'm sorry bro but no one wants you for that amount your attitude shows you would probably not be worth it.

Maybe somebody will hire him for that much, which would mean that the market decides he is worth that much. Just let the market decide.

And, as for the amount, if that is in an urban area, that might actually be on the low side of what is actually required as a living wage. In some areas, the cost of living can be extremely high... high enough where somebody making $80k a year could barely make ends meet.
Quote:

You may believe my comments are harsh but it is a harsh world and westerners have been protected from the reality of what their work is really worth by government policy

How so?
The only thing I can think of is the minimum wage.

Other than minimum wage, the value of their work is determined by the market, which you have already said is the correct way to determine its worth.
_AVG_
This movement has spread around to other cities too. Here in Philadelphia, people are protesting in Center City as well.
I agree that corporate greed is indeed a disease that needs to be eradicated but I think that the Wall Street protesters need to think of a constructive solution than merely protesting. There are other ways of being heard: you don't have to disrupt the lives of other people.
ocalhoun
_AVG_ wrote:
There are other ways of being heard: you don't have to disrupt the lives of other people.

Without spending lots of money to do it?

... Name some.
deanhills
Just heard on the news that there are protestors at St. Paul's Cathedral in London as well. I'm completely impressed.
gandalfthegrey
I am very disappointed with how municipalities (most of which have democratic mayors and city councils) have been dealing with (and their evictions of) the occupy movement.

Many on the left are becoming increasing disillusioned with the political process. Electing Democratics/leftists means nothing. Barack Obama is the biggest disappointed to those on the left - he has not stopped the corporate bailouts, has not instituted national health care, not done anything to address poverty.

So called progressives (like the Mayor of Oakland) have oversaw violent evictions of protestors from occupy sites.

The former prime minister of Greece, who oversaw the bailouts in his country, is a socialist (he is even President of Socialist International). Those in his own country are disappointed. The rich are essentially holding the poor hostage, through their governments and taxes, forced to pay compounded interest on government deficits.
paul_indo
Quote:
From what I have seen and read about it I don't believe this in any way represents the average person.

I have also seen news reports about companies seeking workers and being unable to fill those jobs.

OK, the pay may be a bit low and the hours not what I want but hell, if you haven't got a job maybe you should take it untill better is available.

Westerners are spoilt beyond belief but generally to stupid to realise it.

Spend a few years in the developing world and these Whiners would have to take any a job so they could eat.

It's time that the western world realised that wealth is a privilege, not a right.


Actually I wasn't even that harsh only a couple of comments were a little harsh but in the case of these people I believe it is turning out to be true.

I am a westerner so I have every right to criticise what I see as a self centered attitude in many western countries.

firstly these people despise the capitalist system and yet it is the only system I know of where they could hope to live the laid back lifedtyle they enjoy and get to demand high wages. It just seems a bit hypocritical to me.

secondly it appears that most Americans are getting tired of this selfish movement which is actually destroying many local businesses and causing chaos in their squatter camps.

It's turning ugly and it's time to move to the next stage and use legitimate lobbying and protest. As many are saying, free speach is not a right to take over public property and disrupt the lives of others, particularly for months on end.

Quote:
OWS Protesters Chant ‘Follow Those Kids!’ As Small Children Try To Go To School On Wall Street

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) — They were caught in the middle of madness.

Some grade school students were forced to walk a gauntlet of screaming “Occupy Wall Street” protesters just to get to school on Thursday.

It was a wild day in lower Manhattan for most everyone involved, including elementary school children who had to brave the mayhem just to get to class on the other side of Wall Street.

GALLERY: Occupy Wall Street “Day Of Action”

In the middle of thousands of protestors yelling and chanting — some kicking and screaming – CBS 2’s Emily Smith found little school kids trying to get to class. Nervous parents led them through the barriers on Wall Street. The NYPD helped funnel the children, anything to ease their fears while some protestors chanted “follow those kids!”

“These guys are terrorists, yelling at little kids,” one father said.

“For them it’s horrible. They’re afraid of all the crowds. We’re not even able to get through. They’re just, he’s … very afraid now,” a mother added.

One protester followed a father and his little daughter all the way down the block. As the school day ended just after 3 p.m. children trickled out of Leman Manhattan Prep on Broad Street. Smith heard a 4-year-old boy telling his mom he was scared. He told Smith it looked like a parade.

“There was a parade. It was scary — crowded with school,” the boy said.

“After a while it got so bad some parents couldn’t get their children through and they had to go late,” said Gary Goldenstein of Tribeca.

Some saw the day’s doings as chaos; others saw it differently.

“The parents actually along with teachers were at every entry point into this area, which is fantastic,” said Vicki Pitcock of Tribeca.

School officials said they haven’t had to change school times or cancel class, and are trying to keep it that way.

How far is too far?
deanhills
paul_indo wrote:
I am a westerner so I have every right to criticise what I see as a self centered attitude in many western countries.
As far as I can see you have a right to criticize any Western country whether you are a Westerner or not. In my own experience Westerners are much more self-critical than the average citizen of Non-Western countries, where criticism can be frowned upon, not only because it is against the law, but people may think it impolite along cultural lines to do so. In the United States I'd go as far to say that its citizens are probably ten times as critical of themselves than anyone else outside the States can dream to be. All you need to do is check their blogs.
Omif
Important they may be, university material they are not. Those skills can easily be taught during in-job training or at a trade school. But at a university it is ridiculous given that universities are supposed to be places of higher learning.[quote]


Many skills can and should be taugh on a job. But have to tried to convince your potential employer to teach you? Tried to send out such a resume? Anybody wrote back to you?
paul_indo
deanhills

You are right, what I meant was that I am not criticiseing something I know nothing about or don't understand as I was born and grew up in the west.

I know live in Indonesia and here too there are unrealistic attitudes of a totally diffeent sort. I do believe however that the many westerners, and by this I mean people living in the west of any ethnic background, seem to have developed an attitude that they deserve a good job with high pay and all the materialistic trimmings and I believe that ultimately it has caused a negative impact on western society.
Attitudes have changed dramaticaly over the last 50 years and I believe that all people in the developed world need to realise that while food and shelter should be a basic human right luxury goods and fancy cars are not. THese things are not evil or wrong but need to be put in a proper perspective.
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