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Rick Perry: Creationist, Global Warming Denier, Hypocrite





handfleisch
When Texas Governor Rick Perry announced he was running for president, I thought he would try to pretend to be more moderate to take a few votes from Mitt Romney, since he already will have the right wing reactionaries in his pocket. I was wrong! He's worse than we could have expected.

He's a Creationist who says Creationism is taught in Texas schools (even though that would be illegal) and appoints extremist Creationist to school boards:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/rick-perry-faces-kids-evolution-question-14333330
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_08/perry_tackles_science_in_nh031635.php
He says Global Warming is a fraud perpetrated by scientists: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/08/rick-perry-climate-change-is-a-hoax-drummed-up-by-scientists-looking-to-make-money.php?ref=fpa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xnxD_NSUQw&feature=player_embedded

And though right wingers complain about the Obama's economic stimulus package and pretend to be fiscally conservative, Perry took all the money to cover up his own giant budget deficit in Texas: http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/23/news/economy/texas_perry_budget_stimulus/index.htm

He is also blurring the lines between Church and State with his giant prayer rallies filled with extremist and fundamentalists.

He looks even worse than his fellow Texan, George W. Bush, who inherited economic prosperity and a country at peace and left it with two unfunded wars and a collapsing economy. We can only imagine what a disaster Perry would preside over. Hopefully the whole Republican campaign for president in 2012 will all be just a nutty freak show to watch for entertainment and nothing more.
Afaceinthematrix
Yes I hate this guy. I remember recently I started to hear about this guy and so I told my girlfriend I needed to do my research and she responded with, "You don't really have to; you're going to hate this guy." Not too long later that statement was confirmed...

You can also add in the fact that he spent a bunch of tax payers' dollars for a bunch of unnecessary travel...
ocalhoun
Afaceinthematrix wrote:

You can also add in the fact that he spent a bunch of tax payers' dollars for a bunch of unnecessary travel...


Well, that part at least is hardly unusual for politicians.
Afaceinthematrix
ocalhoun wrote:
Afaceinthematrix wrote:

You can also add in the fact that he spent a bunch of tax payers' dollars for a bunch of unnecessary travel...


Well, that part at least is hardly unusual for politicians.


Yes that's the unfortunate part. I would love to see the world by going on 23 vacations funded by tax dollars. It's hard for me to justify even one trip by a governor let alone 23 trips (I'm going off the top of my head; I may be wrong about the exact number because I researched him a while back and don't feel like redoing the research). I guess I can see an occasional trip if there is a really, really good reason. For instance, if there is a company in Texas that is completely in Texas (as in their executive office is in Texas, their factories are in Texas, and they get parts from other factories in Texas) and this company produces computers for instance, and there is another country that wants to buy new computers for every government office, then just maybe the governor could justify going there. If he can help strike a deal to use these Texas made computers, then he is helping out Texas business and therefore increasing Texas tax revenue and the trip is profitable. But this is extreme far-fetched. I doubt this would ever happen. For a president, maybe. But a governor? They aren't nearly as important and aren't going to get in with important people abroad and influence their decision to use a product. And most products are exclusively in one state, anyways. Even if you have your corporate office and factories in a single state, you're most likely importing parts from somewhere else... So I can't really see how to justify this travel...
ocalhoun
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
So I can't really see how to justify this travel...

Well, I suppose it depends where he's going and why.
For a governor, I could understand occasional travel within the state, and perhaps even one or two trips to neighboring states...

I would be interested in learning the particulars of exactly where and why he traveled.
Afaceinthematrix
ocalhoun wrote:
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
So I can't really see how to justify this travel...

Well, I suppose it depends where he's going and why.
For a governor, I could understand occasional travel within the state, and perhaps even one or two trips to neighboring states...

I would be interested in learning the particulars of exactly where and why he traveled.



Quote:
AUSTIN — Taxpayers spent close to $1 million in security costs for 23 foreign trips by GOP Gov. Rick Perry and his wife over seven years, according to records obtained under the Public Information Act by the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News.


But, of course, foreign travel isn't too rare for governors for some reason or another. Same article:

Quote:
Perry, Texas' longest-serving governor, has made far more foreign trips than his predecessors. Former governors George W. Bush and the late Ann Richards traveled to Mexico. Bush also made a much noted trip to Israel, preceded by a stop in Italy, before launching his presidential campaign.


http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Taxpayers-paid-nearly-1-million-for-Perrys-1702410.php

I, like you, can understand occasional travel in the state. But foreign travel for a governor is just ridiculous. Necessary occasionally for a president, but ridiculous for a governor.
coolclay
Yea, this guy might work for Texas, and I do like his hands off position in terms of business, but that's about it. Other than that he's a little bit of a nut job, and I think would make a horrible Pres.
ocalhoun
Afaceinthematrix wrote:

I, like you, can understand occasional travel in the state. But foreign travel for a governor is just ridiculous. Necessary occasionally for a president, but ridiculous for a governor.


Heck, for a Texas governor, I could even understand a trip to Mexico, since they share a large (and volatile) border. I could definitely understand if the Texas governor wanted to discuss border security and the like with Mexican officials.

Israel of course... there's no (legitimate) reason for a Texas governor to go to Israel on taxpayer money.


Some politician travel expenses are perfectly legitimate; others are an abuse of the system... To figure out which side of the line this guy's expenses were on, I'd have to look at the details -- though having significantly more travel than others should raise an alarm immediately.
gandalfthegrey
Why does this feel like deja vu?... oh yeah, George W. Bush. Texas Governor, Creationist, Climate Change Denier, Hypocrite.
Bikerman
Interesting how fudamental Christians are also very likely to be climate-change deniers.....
Afaceinthematrix
Bikerman wrote:
Interesting how fudamental Christians are also very likely to be climate-change deniers.....


I've always found that interesting. It might have something to do that, in the U.S., the media is highly against global warming. You hear more "global warming is fake" nonsense than actual science about it. It's all over the radio and talk show hosts love running their mouths about how fake it is and even many of my high school teachers (and I'm 21 so this wasn't too long ago) would tell us about how it's only political and it's completely fake.

Now who's more likely to believe this mass media campaign: someone who has spent their whole life accepting well over a thousand pages of fairy-tales, magic, and fantasies simply because as a child they were told it's true or someone who was probably fed this as a child (with how fast atheism is growing, it would seem like most came from theistic parents because the rate of atheism growth is far greater than population growth in the U.S.) but actually thought about it and decided they didn't believe it?

When you have a mass media campaign telling you something then some people will just accept it and others will question it, do research, and come to a reasonable decision. Which group is more likely to do that? The group that has already done that with other things (such as religion) in the past or the group who has a history of just blindly accepting things?
handfleisch
coolclay wrote:
Yea, this guy might work for Texas, and I do like his hands off position in terms of business, but that's about it. Other than that he's a little bit of a nut job, and I think would make a horrible Pres.


Yeah I notice even a lot of righties think this. One Reagan adviser recently called him "an idiot" and a Bush aide said he is “inappropriate and unpresidential”. The best quote going 'round says Perry is President Bush without the intellect and compassion­.

http://blog.chron.com/txpotomac/2011/08/former-bush-aide-calls-rick-perrys-treason-comment-about-fed-chair-bernanke-inappropriate-and-unpresidential/

http://news.yahoo.com/former-reagan-advisor-rick-perry-idiot-federal-remarks-210700999.html
ocalhoun
handfleisch wrote:
coolclay wrote:
Yea, this guy might work for Texas, and I do like his hands off position in terms of business, but that's about it. Other than that he's a little bit of a nut job, and I think would make a horrible Pres.


Yeah I notice even a lot of righties think this. One Reagan adviser recently called him "an idiot" and a Bush aide said he is “inappropriate and unpresidential”. The best quote going 'round says Perry is President Bush without the intellect and compassion­.

Chill out, okay... I don't think anybody here is trying to defend the guy.
No need to keep tearing him down when everybody already agrees that he's a shining example of the worst that American politics has to offer.
metalfreek
I am really not that aware of American politics but looking at his records and all. I can easily tell that this guy is loosing the election.
handfleisch
ocalhoun wrote:
Chill out, okay... I don't think anybody here is trying to defend the guy.
No need to keep tearing him down when everybody already agrees that he's a shining example of the worst that American politics has to offer.

"Everybody"? More than one in four Republicans are ready to vote for the "worst that American politics has to offer"
http://www.gallup.com/poll/149180/Perry-Zooms-Front-Pack-2012-GOP-Nomination.aspx
Quote:
August 24, 2011
Perry Zooms to Front of Pack for 2012 GOP Nomination
Leads Romney by 29% to 17%
by Jeffrey M. Jones

PRINCETON, NJ -- Shortly after announcing his official candidacy, Texas Gov. Rick Perry has emerged as rank-and-file Republicans' current favorite for their party's 2012 presidential nomination. Twenty-nine percent of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents nationwide say they are most likely to support Perry, with Mitt Romney next, at 17%.

ocalhoun
handfleisch wrote:

Quote:





That makes me sad... very very sad.
Okay, never mind... this country is doomed.
handfleisch
ocalhoun wrote:

That makes me sad... very very sad.
Okay, never mind... this country is doomed.


Don't get sad, fight! A disorganized, moderate party like the Democrats is vastly preferable to the neo-conservative, semi-theocratic corporate warmongers of the Republicans. It's unfortunate we have a lesser-of-two-evils system but we just do. Heck, for the last 20 years Democrats are fiscally conservative as compared to the Repubs. So get involved, it's not about you it's about the country, let's not have a repeat of the disasters the Repubs have put us through this century.
ocalhoun
handfleisch wrote:

Don't get sad, fight!


Oh, wait... I suppose you meant 'fight' figuratively.
No, I don't suppose it's quite time for violent revolution just yet. Things keep going the way they are though... and someday it will be.
Quote:
It's unfortunate we have a lesser-of-two-evils system but we just do.

I think I'll direct my energy towards fighting that 'lesser-of-two-evils* system' rather than fighting within it. -- Given the choice of two evils, the only good choice is 'neither'.
By participating in it, you give it validity.




*I am shocked -- SHOCKED -- to see you implying that the Democrats are the lesser of two evils, and therefore still evil in absolute terms. I agree entirely, just shocked to see it coming from you, of all people.
kamalvai
in fact we cant expect anything good from a guy who got his graduation with only CGPA 2.50 and lots of C grades! As a graduate from Texas A&M University I feel shame this man has got his graduation from my University. However Perry is trying to hypnotize some conservative folks. I know he will not be able to hypnotize young generation at all.
deanhills
handfleisch wrote:
Heck, for the last 20 years Democrats are fiscally conservative as compared to the Repubs.
Shocked You mean spending trillions is better than billions? I don't think any President in the history of the United States accumulated as much debt in his first months of presidency as Obama did. With very little to show for it.
brandon02852
Rick Perry is 100% clueless.

It was basically proven during his "oops" speech. This guy is stupider than Gingritch.
deanhills
brandon02852 wrote:
Rick Perry is 100% clueless.

It was basically proven during his "oops" speech. This guy is stupider than Gingritch.
Well, I won't put it that way, but I don't have much confidence in him to the extent of an appointment like President. I don't agree with your evaluation of Newt Gingrich however. I don't think he is brilliant, but he is a very experienced politician, experienced at playing the game, and has the kind of confidence in himself that would be good for the Presidency.
jmi256
Obama claims to be a Creationist. Does this make him unqualified to be president too?
Ankhanu
jmi256 wrote:
Obama claims to be a Creationist. Does this make him unqualified to be president too?


Really?? I know he's Christian, but I've never heard of him being creationist... Where has he claimed to be creationist?
I'm pretty sure that both Obama and McCain had both identified as believing in evolution over creationism.
jmi256
Ankhanu wrote:
jmi256 wrote:
Obama claims to be a Creationist. Does this make him unqualified to be president too?


Really?? I know he's Christian, but I've never heard of him being creationist... Where has he claimed to be creationist?


Christians, including Obama, do believe in a Creator and that the world was created. It is in the very first book of the Bible.
catscratches
Quote:
creationism
the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.


Not all Christians (in fact, only fundamentalist bigots do) take the Bible literally.
jmi256
catscratches wrote:
Quote:
creationism
the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.


Not all Christians (in fact, only fundamentalist bigots do) take the Bible literally.

Christians do believe in the Bible and a Creator/God. Genesis, as well as the rest of the Bible, clearly makes that claim. I’m not trying to argue whether that is true or not, but if your argument is that Perry was unqualified to be president because he believed the world was created by a Creator, then Obama is disqualified for the exact same reason.

Also, it looks like you cherry picked only part of the definition:
Quote:
creationism
the doctrine that the true story of the creation of the universe is as it is recounted in the Bible, especially in the first chapter of Genesis.
Ankhanu
jmi256 wrote:
catscratches wrote:
Quote:
creationism
the doctrine that matter and all things were created, substantially as they now exist, by an omnipotent Creator, and not gradually evolved or developed.


Not all Christians (in fact, only fundamentalist bigots do) take the Bible literally.

Christians do believe in the Bible and a Creator/God. Genesis, as well as the rest of the Bible, clearly makes that claim. I’m not trying to argue whether that is true or not, but if your argument is that Perry was unqualified to be president because he believed the world was created by a Creator, then Obama is disqualified for the exact same reason.

Also, it looks like you cherry picked only part of the definition:
Quote:
creationism
the doctrine that the true story of the creation of the universe is as it is recounted in the Bible, especially in the first chapter of Genesis.

Your view here is pretty short-sighted. A great many Christians do not believe in special creation, or if they do, bring it as far back as the Big Bang itself, rather than crafting the planet and us. Your thought on creationism is a little askew.
jmi256
Ankhanu wrote:
Your view here is pretty short-sighted. A great many Christians do not believe in special creation, or if they do, bring it as far back as the Big Bang itself, rather than crafting the planet and us. Your thought on creationism is a little askew.

It is not my view. It was implied here that Perry was not qualified to be president because he believed in a Creationism and the Creator that goes along with that view. The application to Perry is moot since he has dropped out of the race, but if that is the argument it should be applied equally rather than trying to fault one candidate for a belief while giving another a pass on it. The Creation story is in the very first book of the Bible. Whatever your belief or view is on its validity, it is hard to argue that it is not there, and that Christians believe in the Bible. So if it was so bad that Perry believed in a Creation/Creator, why is it ok that Obama does? Or is it just more hypocrisy from the Left?
Ankhanu
What you're (quite mistakenly) saying is that all Christians are literalists, and believe everything in the Bible as it is written. This is so obviously incorrect, that it's a moot point... the entirety of the Catholic church are not literalists, for example. Because it's in the Bible does not mean that Christians believe it... the proof is the fact that most Christians ignore the laws and demands set forth in most of it. Christians pick and choose what they believe or pay lip-service to within the Bible, none take all of it as literal or law; if they did, they'd implode from constant contradiction.
Truth is, there are varied degrees to which Christians believe the content of the Bible, or whether they view it as literal truth or (the more common appoach) allegory. If you can't see this, it really calls in to question your ability to view events and themes in this world as they actually exist (and hence all of your political opinions as well).

With that in mind, there's a big difference between believing the world was literally formed ~6,000 years ago, fully formed with us and all other life as we currently exist, and viewing this as a symbolic story that isn't factually correct. There is some value in Genesis as allegory and absolutely none as history.
A creationist belief requires a strong disconnect from reality, a rejection of everything that we've learned to date and a closed mind. It's a weakness and offers insight into a mind predisposed to ignore facts to rely upon presumption and prejudice. It says "I've made up my mind, and no amount of truth is going to sway me." I don't know about you, but that's not the kind of mind I'd want running my nation; it's arrogant, foolhardy and shallow. (My country IS run by a fundamentalist, and it's a nightmare)

An allegorical approach to the Bible (or even ignoring the Bible altogether), if belief in the unsubstantiated must be brought to play, is much more flexible, and allows one to factor in the current body of knowledge and reason into the game. One can approach creation as symbol and still understand and accept what science has taught us about the world, the universe and the nature of being human. An allegorical approach allows one to maintain the faith they hold so dear, bending it around the actual facts, leaving the facts intact and a consideration. There is a lower reliance upon prejudice and presumption... and this is a good thing.

Personally, I think belief in God, etc., is silly... but there are certain forms of belief that are obviously worse than others; literalism being one of the poorer stances. In the USA, reality is that an atheist is unlikely to be elected, not based on any of their political or social stances, but purely because they don't accept Jesus... same could be said for any openly non-Christian, even if they're of another mainstream religion. With that in mind, I doubt we'll see any hopefuls that will openly deny worshipping the sky fairy, even if they don't (not that I think any of the current presidential candidates or Obama are non-believers).
catscratches
jmi256 wrote:

Also, it looks like you cherry picked only part of the definition:
Quote:
creationism
the doctrine that the true story of the creation of the universe is as it is recounted in the Bible, especially in the first chapter of Genesis.
That definition goes under my definition as well. The creation story in the Bible states that the world was created as-is, including life, which was created rather than evolved over time.
jmi256
catscratches wrote:
jmi256 wrote:

Also, it looks like you cherry picked only part of the definition:
Quote:
creationism
the doctrine that the true story of the creation of the universe is as it is recounted in the Bible, especially in the first chapter of Genesis.
That definition goes under my definition as well. The creation story in the Bible states that the world was created as-is, including life, which was created rather than evolved over time.

Hmmm…. Again, this is not meant to get into a religious discussion, but I think there are quite a few Christians who believe in Creation and evolution. The two are not mutually exclusive. I could get into the details, but I think that is more appropriate for the Faith forum.
I wasn’t the one who made the claim that belief in Creation/Creator was a disqualifier; I am just seeing if this is applied equally or whether it is just another cheap shot from the Left in which they refuse to be held to the same standard. Perry was deemed unqualified to be president in the opinion of some posters here because he professed to believe in Creation and a Creator, while Obama seems to be a pass on it. A simple question: If Obama also believes in a Creation and a Creator, does that make him as “unqualified” as Perry?
Ankhanu
jmi256 wrote:
Hmmm…. Again, this is not meant to get into a religious discussion, but I think there are quite a few Christians who believe in Creation and evolution. The two are not mutually exclusive. I could get into the details, but I think that is more appropriate for the Faith forum.

I covered it already Razz
Also covered why it applies differently, politically, to someone like Perry versus someone like Obama. Obama doesn't get a "pass" on believing, but the types of belief displayed by Perry and Obama are not equal; Perry's style is much worse.

Unfortunately, as I mentioned, a non-belief in a "Creator" is the disqualifier in the US, even in the face of Creationism. It baffles the mind.
jmi256
Ankhanu wrote:
jmi256 wrote:
Hmmm…. Again, this is not meant to get into a religious discussion, but I think there are quite a few Christians who believe in Creation and evolution. The two are not mutually exclusive. I could get into the details, but I think that is more appropriate for the Faith forum.

I covered it already Razz
Also covered why it applies differently, politically, to someone like Perry versus someone like Obama. Obama doesn't get a "pass" on believing, but the types of belief displayed by Perry and Obama are not equal; Perry's style is much worse.

I think you are making comparison on facts that do not exist, but rather on your assumptions. Exactly how are they different? What does Perry believe that Obama does not? In fact, what are you claiming that Perry believes? The article cited says he is a “Creationist” but I did not see any detail on exactly what that means. Does it mean he believes the world was called into being from a Creator or that Man was created as is in God’s “own image”? What exactly does Obama believe? Are you saying he has not professed to believe these things? I think there is a dishonest struggle here to give Obama a pass on something that Perry was mocked for, even without even knowing whether Perry and Obama’s beliefs on Creation differ.
Ankhanu
A "Creationist" believes in literal creation: God said "let there be" and there was; facts be damned.

I'm not exactly sure what Obama's beliefs are, but they're not exactly literalist nor creationist. He has professed a belief in evolution (something for which there is overwhelming evidence in support), for example, which is something that Creationists take as being false. Given that he believes in evolution, he can't believe in the literal truth of the Bible... can't be a Creationist.

I think Obama's a fool for believing in God... I think the belief in something for which there is no evidence is somewhat foolish, whether it be Obama or Joe down the street. On the other hand, his belief in God isn't necessarily the basis of his decision making process; someone like Perry makes no qualms about professing that their religious belief IS the basis of how they approach life and politics. If Obama DOES make his decisions based on his religious belief, he at least has the good sense to keep that aspect of his decisions private, rather than a public platform. That, if nothing else, shows some level of discretion, even if it is a little dishonest.

I have many religious friends, but their religion rarely comes in to play in how we interact; it's personal for them, not necessarily public. So it should be with someone in office.
jmi256
Ankhanu wrote:
I'm not exactly sure what Obama's beliefs are, but they're not exactly literalist nor creationist.

So you DON’T know what his beliefs are, yet you DO know feel free to make claims about them? Which is it? He claims to be a Christian, and Christians believe in a Creator/God that created the world. As others pointed out there may be some differences in how they claim the world was created (whether God literally created the world in six days as we know them vs. the universe was created by God in the Big Bang and then evolved to what we see today), but the underlying tenet is that there is a Creator/God. You simply cannot claim a God-created Creation without a Creator/God. Both believe in Creationism, but Obama supports seem to be struggling as hard as possible to somehow give Obama a pass while they snickered at Perry for his similar beliefs. The title of this thread includes “Hypocrite” and I think that description is quite fitting for Obama’s supporters who are unwilling to at least attempt some type of honesty on the matter.
Ankhanu
Again, there is a range of Christian beliefs... I know that he professes a belief in God and Jesus, but beyond that, all I can comment on is what he has stated. One of those things he has stated is a belief that is not compatible with creationism... which implies he is NOT a creationist, and informs that he does not read the (whole) Bible literally.

Tell me, is Obama's religious belief his main platform for how to deal with running the nation? Has Perry essentially said that it is for him? If I'm not mistaken the answers are, in order, no and yes. This is, in my opinion, important and informative.

Just as I didn't vote for Stephen Harper based partially on his Christian fundamentalism, likewise I wouldn't vote for a man like Perry. Unfortunately, it's hard, in North America, to vote for an atheist, or even a non-Christian. In other regions, religion is only a big deal for the fringe, and atheists do run nations... and believers keep their beliefs private, as they should be.
Religion really shouldn't be an element of politics... but in reality, in many nations, it is.


"You simply cannot claim a God-created Creation without a Creator/God," no, not exactly... though you can claim that there was a Creator, and that creator no longer interacts with the universe... that their only role was the initial creation. These people are referred to as "deists". While deists do still appeal to the supernatural for what got things started, they are still more rational than personal God believers, or Creationists.
jmi256
Ankhanu wrote:
Again, there is a range of Christian beliefs... I know that he professes a belief in God and Jesus, but beyond that, all I can comment on is what he has stated.

The God/Jesus in which he professes is a Creator God that created the world. Saying that someone believes in the Christian God yet does not believe in a Creator is the same as saying someone believes in gravity, yet we don’t know if you believes that an apple will fall from a tree. Both are silly arguments.
Ankhanu
You're (intentionally?) misconstruing what has been said.
Yes, both believe in a personal creator god... which is utterly ludicrous. However, there are different levels of ludicrous, and belief that God made man and all the world in 6 days ~6,000 years ago is on a rather different level than "there is a God that made the universe, and life on Earth took billions of years to evolve." The God bit is universally silly, but the creationist form is in another league. It's like little leaguers playing with major leaguers.

I mean, sure, Obama's getting a virtual "pass" here, because he's a little less bat-shit, but like-wise, Perry would get a bit of a pass if he was running against someone like Fred Phelps.
jmi256
Ankhanu wrote:
You're (intentionally?) misconstruing what has been said.
Yes, both believe in a personal creator god... which is utterly ludicrous. However, there are different levels of ludicrous, and belief that God made man and all the world in 6 days ~6,000 years ago is on a rather different level than "there is a God that made the universe, and life on Earth took billions of years to evolve." The God bit is universally silly, but the creationist form is in another league. It's like little leaguers playing with major leaguers.

I mean, sure, Obama's getting a virtual "pass" here, because he's a little less bat-shit, but like-wise, Perry would get a bit of a pass if he was running against someone like Fred Phelps.


I am not misconstruing anything. It is not my fault that the Left takes the hypocritical stance of attacking Perry for his beliefs in a Christian God that created the world, while praising Obama as if his beliefs differ. Just for your own information, Obama has professed to believe in a creator God, one who “call the worlds into being” and create Man in His “own image.” Here is the statement of belief from Obama’s church in Chicago, in which he was a member and would have had to profess to gain membership. (Remember Jeremiah Wright, Obama’s pastor who made outrageous claims like the federal government created HIV to target blacks? And that God damned America? Yeah, that church.)

Quote:
What we believe
We believe in you, O God, Eternal Spirit, God of our Savior Jesus Christ and our God, and to your deeds we testify: You call the worlds into being, create persons in your own image, and set before each one the ways of life and death. You seek in holy love to save all people from aimlessness and sin. You judge people and nations by your righteous will declared through prophets and apostles. In Jesus Christ, the man of Nazareth, our crucified and risen Savior, you have come to us and shared our common lot, conquering sin and death and reconciling the world to yourself. You bestow upon us your Holy Spirit, creating and renewing the church of Jesus Christ, binding in covenant faithful people of all ages, tongues, and races. You call us into your church to accept the cost and joy of discipleship, to be your servants in the service of others, to proclaim the gospel to all the world and resist the powers of evil, to share in Christ's baptism and eat at his table, to join him in his passion and victory. You promise to all who trust you forgiveness of sins and fullness of grace, courage in the struggle for justice and peace, your presence in trial and rejoicing, and eternal life in your realm which has no end. Blessing and honor, glory and power be unto you. Amen.

Source = http://www.trinitychicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20
handfleisch
jmi256 wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:
You're (intentionally?) misconstruing what has been said.
Yes, both believe in a personal creator god... which is utterly ludicrous. However, there are different levels of ludicrous, and belief that God made man and all the world in 6 days ~6,000 years ago is on a rather different level than "there is a God that made the universe, and life on Earth took billions of years to evolve." The God bit is universally silly, but the creationist form is in another league. It's like little leaguers playing with major leaguers.

I mean, sure, Obama's getting a virtual "pass" here, because he's a little less bat-shit, but like-wise, Perry would get a bit of a pass if he was running against someone like Fred Phelps.


I am not misconstruing anything. It is not my fault that the Left takes the hypocritical stance of attacking Perry for his beliefs in a Christian God that created the world, while praising Obama as if his beliefs differ. Just for your own information, Obama has professed to believe in a creator God, one who “call the worlds into being” and create Man in His “own image.” Here is the statement of belief from Obama’s church in Chicago, in which he was a member and would have had to profess to gain membership. (Remember Jeremiah Wright, Obama’s pastor who made outrageous claims like the federal government created HIV to target blacks? And that God damned America? Yeah, that church.)

Uh, no. To be a member of a church, in many cases all you have to do is go sit in the pews every Sunday. Are you really trying to say that Obama is a creationist? That Obama believes the world is less than 10,000 years old? Really? We also wait your proof that the world is flat.

Oh, and btw:
Quote:
Barack Obama rebuked his former pastor the Rev. Jeremiah Wright on Tuesday for giving sermons in which he blamed the government for creating a racist state and "inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color."
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/03/the_aids_conspiracy_handbook.html

To try to equate Obama's religious statements with Rick Perry's is, as someone else said here, batshit crazy.
Ankhanu
jmi256 wrote:
I am not misconstruing anything. It is not my fault that the Left takes the hypocritical stance of attacking Perry for his beliefs in a Christian God that created the world, while praising Obama as if his beliefs differ. Just for your own information, Obama has professed to believe in a creator God, one who “call the worlds into being” and create Man in His “own image.” Here is the statement of belief from Obama’s church in Chicago, in which he was a member and would have had to profess to gain membership. (Remember Jeremiah Wright, Obama’s pastor who made outrageous claims like the federal government created HIV to target blacks? And that God damned America? Yeah, that church.)

Quote:
What we believe
We believe in you, O God, Eternal Spirit, God of our Savior Jesus Christ and our God, and to your deeds we testify: You call the worlds into being, create persons in your own image, and set before each one the ways of life and death. You seek in holy love to save all people from aimlessness and sin. You judge people and nations by your righteous will declared through prophets and apostles. In Jesus Christ, the man of Nazareth, our crucified and risen Savior, you have come to us and shared our common lot, conquering sin and death and reconciling the world to yourself. You bestow upon us your Holy Spirit, creating and renewing the church of Jesus Christ, binding in covenant faithful people of all ages, tongues, and races. You call us into your church to accept the cost and joy of discipleship, to be your servants in the service of others, to proclaim the gospel to all the world and resist the powers of evil, to share in Christ's baptism and eat at his table, to join him in his passion and victory. You promise to all who trust you forgiveness of sins and fullness of grace, courage in the struggle for justice and peace, your presence in trial and rejoicing, and eternal life in your realm which has no end. Blessing and honor, glory and power be unto you. Amen.

Source = http://www.trinitychicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20

I've attended church... I even have a church that I'd consider "my church". I've recited the Lord's Prayer... does this make me a creationist? Does this mean I believe what the people of "my church" believe?


Unfortunately, belief in God, and Christian beliefs specifically, are normal in North America today. To say that that holding a basic Christian belief is going to ostracize someone is completely irrational.
That said, more extreme forms of Christianity, including Creationists, members of the Westboro Baptist Church, etc. are crazy beyond the normative level. Should they be called out on their added level of irrationality? Yes. Yes, I think they should. Maybe in time a basic belief in God, even without the creationist level of crazy will also be extreme, but, at present time, it's not. This is why Obama (and most other politicians professing faith, but not making it their platform) gets a bit of a pass at present.

Like you, I don't like the free pass that Christianity offers any politician... but it's the societal norm, so whatcha gonna do? Perry's creationism isn't the societal norm outside of the Bible Belt, so, yeah, he's gonna get called out on it.
I can only imagine the shitstorm that an openly atheist or Hindu... or Allah forbid, MUSLIM presidential candidate would cause. Can you imagine that?? Perry would likely get a free pass for being a creationist in light of that competition... at least he's Christian.

Separation of church and state, my ass Razz
deanhills
Ankhanu wrote:
To say that that holding a basic Christian belief is going to ostracize someone is completely irrational.
That is completely relative to the company you find yourself in. If it is a Christian for example visiting an atheist group meeting that is hot and bothered about those damn creationists, and the Christian opens his/her mouth to defend those creationists I'd bet my dollar on that poor christian being tackled to the ground. And the reverse. A lone atheist visiting a Christian gathering where they are feeling quite emotional and blaming all the world's deterioration on non-believers. And the atheist then gets up and gives them a good run for their money. I'd imagine that outcome would also be quite predictable.
Ankhanu
Would you agree that in general mixed North American company that a Christian is not going to be considered abnormal, based on their religion alone? You know full well that Christians make up the bulk of the North American population, special case caveats aside.
jmi256
Ankhanu wrote:
jmi256 wrote:
I am not misconstruing anything. It is not my fault that the Left takes the hypocritical stance of attacking Perry for his beliefs in a Christian God that created the world, while praising Obama as if his beliefs differ. Just for your own information, Obama has professed to believe in a creator God, one who “call the worlds into being” and create Man in His “own image.” Here is the statement of belief from Obama’s church in Chicago, in which he was a member and would have had to profess to gain membership. (Remember Jeremiah Wright, Obama’s pastor who made outrageous claims like the federal government created HIV to target blacks? And that God damned America? Yeah, that church.)

Quote:
What we believe
We believe in you, O God, Eternal Spirit, God of our Savior Jesus Christ and our God, and to your deeds we testify: You call the worlds into being, create persons in your own image, and set before each one the ways of life and death. You seek in holy love to save all people from aimlessness and sin. You judge people and nations by your righteous will declared through prophets and apostles. In Jesus Christ, the man of Nazareth, our crucified and risen Savior, you have come to us and shared our common lot, conquering sin and death and reconciling the world to yourself. You bestow upon us your Holy Spirit, creating and renewing the church of Jesus Christ, binding in covenant faithful people of all ages, tongues, and races. You call us into your church to accept the cost and joy of discipleship, to be your servants in the service of others, to proclaim the gospel to all the world and resist the powers of evil, to share in Christ's baptism and eat at his table, to join him in his passion and victory. You promise to all who trust you forgiveness of sins and fullness of grace, courage in the struggle for justice and peace, your presence in trial and rejoicing, and eternal life in your realm which has no end. Blessing and honor, glory and power be unto you. Amen.

Source = http://www.trinitychicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20


I've attended church... I even have a church that I'd consider "my church". I've recited the Lord's Prayer... does this make me a creationist? Does this mean I believe what the people of "my church" believe?

If a church has a clear definition of what its members believe, and someone would then swear that they also believe those core beliefs and become a member, I would say they do believe. Now, they could have lied, but there I would give Obama the benefit of the doubt and think he was at least being honest when he became a member of his church that espouses that the world was created by God in His “own image.” It is very clear that Obama and the other members of that church that have a solid definition of what they believe, including that God created the world and Man, however, you and others seem to want to throw stones at some people for holding that belief while hypocritically being unwilling to even admit that Obama believes the same thing. It is simple; if Perry was unfit to be president because of his religious beliefs about the world and Man being created by God, and Obama also believes the world and Man was created by God, then logic dictates that Obama is also unfit to be president. If a = b, and b = c, then a = c.
Ankhanu
What about the fact that he's publicly stated that that is not his belief (via affirmation in an opposing, excluding belief)??
You're clearly trolling on the topic, and I can't be bothered battling it further. Have fun.
jmi256
Ankhanu wrote:
What about the fact that he's publicly stated that that is not his belief (via affirmation in an opposing, excluding belief)??
You're clearly trolling on the topic, and I can't be bothered battling it further. Have fun.

Really? Obama has come out and said he does not believe in God and that God created the world and Man? Just a couple of weeks ago he spoke at the national Prayer breakfast in which he affirmed his belief in God, so I would be surprised to see him say what you are claiming.
I can only imagine it is uncomfortable for you to have your hypocrisy exposed, but if you intend to debate these things you must expect to be challenged. It is quite clear that Obama’s belief in a God that created the world and Man is in line with Perry’s similar belief, so if you want to knock Perry for his beliefs and claim they make him ill-suited to hold the office of president, you have to then admit Obama is equally unfit.
Navigator
I am astonished how Rick Perry went from being at the top of the polls to now being out of the competition, what happened to this guy? I am in no way a republican nor I like the guy but I am just curious!
Ankhanu
Navigator wrote:
I am astonished how Rick Perry went from being at the top of the polls to now being out of the competition, what happened to this guy? I am in no way a republican nor I like the guy but I am just curious!

I think that with this ad, Perry rang his own death knell...
busman
deanhills wrote:
handfleisch wrote:
Heck, for the last 20 years Democrats are fiscally conservative as compared to the Repubs.
Shocked You mean spending trillions is better than billions? I don't think any President in the history of the United States accumulated as much debt in his first months of presidency as Obama did. With very little to show for it.


Dean, and i believe you to be an honest and litterate guy, Listen for a sec. He has absolute reason to say this. Reagan tripled (or was it doubled, pretty sure tripled, anywho...) the debt during his presidency and inflated the millitary budget to unreasonable levels and never enacted legislation to bring these changes down after he left office AND he deregulated the finance industry allowing sub-prime morgatges to be sold.

Bush signed into law the most expesive medicare law ever and even though its cost isn't astronimical just yet it will be pretty soon here in the near future. Dubya also FURTHER deregulated the financial markets allowing the bust to come even earlier than it would have. Dubya also made the Dep. of Homeland Security; the largest expansion in federal power in recent history also CONTINUESLY (as opposed to a one shot one go stimulus) costing us more and more money, with the salaries increse of employees due to population, more and more spying etc. Also Dubya had taken a budget that while wasn't perfect WAS in the plus and WAS balenced and totally destroyed that.

Now i am not your standerd liberal, I am a Social Libertarian as i believe the Govs job is only the betterment and defence of society and anything else is and should be null and void. "To big to fail" is bullsh*t and so is the current state of our overseas spending, foreign policies, foriegn wars etc. These things Obama has disasterously mishandled as well as allowing the continuation of unlawful attacks on illegal targets (the american terrorist who was killed without being detained first and foremost), AND the stimulis was massively mis-managed and although the intentions were maybe altruistic the results were not and LOADED with red-tape and government beurocracy.
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