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Arab Revolts





TrueFact
After Tunisia and Egypt, now we have Yemen and Syria!

There's too much to discuss about these revolts and revolutions.

First, do you think Arabs will have true freedom after these revolutions? Things in Egypt shows that nothing has changed and Mubarak still have power but just with a different face (The Supreme Council of Armed Forces).

Second: Did you notice that the Arabian presidents are always using Islam as a warning to all western countries to get support? Personally I feel that the so called islamophobia was marketed by these rulers in the first place.

Third: Who's next? Simple question that implies lots of things!
deanhills
Interesting what you say about Egypt. I'd thought as much. Corruption has been around for so many decades, longer than Mubarak, how can it just disappear when he is no longer President? Probably the whole system will need to be brought down and that will probably be the equivalent of committing economic suicide?

Is Tunisia sorted out though? I'd rather think the struggle is still ongoing? I doubt anything is at an end until those campaigning for reforms have seen those reforms happening.

Then there is Libya of course and regrettably it looks as thought the West got entangled in the civil war. Help is needed, but the West has this habit of hanging on afterwards and putting someone in power that may not be democratically elected, even though it has the appearance of a democratic election, like in Iraq. Probably also difficult to have a true democratic situation when the tribes are fighting one another to the extent they are. Again, if Ghadaffi is out, like Egypt, I'm not so sure there is going to be a change, more like total chaos and a damaged economy. The only way that economy can be repaired will be massive investment by the West, and obviously the equivalent of neo-colonialism.

Ditto Syria. Except in Syria's case Assad is standing strong. I can't help but feel that removal of Assad in Syria and Saleh in Yemen will lead to really serious civil wars and chaos. Particularly Yemen.

And who is next? Good question. I think countries like Qatar, UAE, Oman and Saudi Arabia where people are not as poor and are much better looked after in terms of housing, education, medical care etc. there may be a good chance that they will work out differences peacefully. I'm almost certain the unrest in countries like Egypt, Tunisia, Syria, Libya and Yemen has been fuelled to a large extent by poverty, lack of education and unemployment.
menino
Actually in Egypt, I read that Mubarrak is in courts and being charged for his corruption, that is being investigated, which means that he is losing his power immensely, to the point of not having any power at all, especially, if they imprison him for 20 years, I think.

The west do try to put in a democratic political government, but the middle east sees very little democracy more or less. Its basically a monarch kind of party, with the face of democracy, like in Kuwait. Kuwaitis are asking for the current Prime Minister to resign, but they have done this numerous times, and again and again, he is being reassigned. Fortunately, I doubt that there will be an Arab uprising, as deanhills had mentioned that these Arab nation's people are taken care of by the government, so they dont really have the drive for it.

I feel sorry for the Syrians, and the Libyans though, apart from the Tunisians and Yemen, because the people are sufferring. I hope that something comes along their way to benefit the people and the countries.
deanhills
menino wrote:
The west do try to put in a democratic political government, but the middle east sees very little democracy more or less.
I think it is much better that the West does not interfere. These guys should figure out what they want themselves. Interference by the West always manages to turn into some form of neo-colonialism, and that is not much different from just another dictatorship.
silverdown
I say if possible send food assistance but there local governmental issues back away slowly and pretend you never heard about it. Unless it a Ally country then well you gotta help.
deanhills
silverdown wrote:
I say if possible send food assistance but there local governmental issues back away slowly and pretend you never heard about it. Unless it a Ally country then well you gotta help.
Problem is that it is sometimes difficult to get the food to those areas where it is really needed. And if it is a corrupt country, then you don't know where the food goes at all. But yes, better to contribute food or clothes anyway, regardless just in case it does manage to make its way to the people who really need it.
TrueFact
I'm more aware about things going in Egypt, and Mubarak has never stepped inside a court room!
Sometimes they say he had a heart attack but then say he has a heart made of steel and as healthy as a teenager!

I agree that decades of corruption will not fade in a short term, but if the actual steps are taken towards reform, people will stop protesting. Currently, there're calls to a second revolution and protests on July 8th to correct things up and demand true and actual trials besides other things.

While the West is trying to help Egypt by few billion dollars, people here are talking about huge amounts of money Mubarak, his family and system have stashed in Western and European Banks. These alone can help Egypt's economy to stand on a solid ground.

All reforms decalred by Essam Sharaf (Current Prime Minister) are irrelative in most cases. Finally, after Mubarak's fall, all media are now supervised by the Supreme Council's Moral Affairs. Thus, the media's tone and speech never changed! If a group protests about something, they are immediately described as traitors or counter-revolutionists! Moreover, some talk-shows managers and casters plus 3 judges are being imprisoned for the most ridiculous charge: Criticizing the Supreme Council of Armed Forces on air. More are imprisoned for the same reason and charge for doing so online. We know about few bloggers as well.

Tunisia is pretty much the same as Egypt. Nothing is actually changing. Syria is heating up, and his first and last speech so far means he almost came to an end! Either the army will split apart, like in Libya, or someone from the inside will try to kill/bomb Assad like Saleh in Yemen. With Turkey exposing Syrian truth, Assad has no much space to play and/or deceive the world opinion like Qaddafi did or tried to do. Also, the West has learned what to do after Egypt and Tunisia. And now they know how far these systems can go before their imminence and sure fall.

Any military action taken by the west in or against any Arabian country/system has led to nothing but tragedy. Things in Libya will remain the same and for a long time just like Iraq and Afghanistan. Here, we consider killing Bin Laden as a sign for a long-term military action in Libya.

For Yemen and Saleh, try to take a look again at the mosque bombed to kill Saleh! Notice how the 3 parrets were systematically and closely scattered on the floor without a single drop of blood! 3 Persons are supposed to be killed but not a single drop of blood! Saleh was never bombed, injured or moved to a hospital. I can swear that he's intact and healthy. He just found his own way of escaping. Each System learned something form the system before it in another country. Mubarak couldn't run as he has seen how things turned in Tunisia, Qaddafi used brute force because he has seen how the supreme council took it over in Egypt after executing about 120 commanders opposed him in the first few days of Libyan revolts, and the same is seen in Syria and Yemen. But Saleh has chickened (thankfully) while Assad is holding on.
TrueFact
Arabian Gulf countries has a much better shape. But still it has its own down sides in many things. Yes they have free education but of very poor quality that they come to Egypt's universities and school for better Education. So if the Egyptians lacked good education, can you imagine most Arabian Gulf countries?

Saudi Arabia will be the last to fall because of the stronghold it has from the religious side and point of view. Plus Saudi Arabia is considered - from Arabs point of view - to be the fort holding Iranian cultural invasion in the middle East. This can be clearly seen when Saudi Arabia sent Gulf Shield forces to Bahrain to help the system against the people there.
deanhills
Wow! These are excellent posts TrueFact. It would seem that not only Mubarak seems to be having health problems when he has to appear in court but his wife too. And I guess on top of everything else Sharm El Sheikh can't be doing that well tourist wise either, more millions down the drain including the cost of added security. Wonder what Egypt could do to extricate all the billions in banks in Europe? I sometimes really hate the "justice" system as I remember when I was still living in South Africa that you would get someone smoking marijuana being put in jail after an embarrassing public trial, yet someone who has defrauded millions, gets to be ushered hush-hush through a special backdoor into the court room surrounded by a bevy of legal advisers and in the end does not serve any jail time at all. It's at times like these that I wish for Robin Hood to make his appearance again .... Very Happy

Hearing about an interim "Supreme Council" in Egypt does worry a person, sounds almost like an interim dictatorship?

Your comments about Saleh from Yemen are interesting. I have not heard these before but must say that there were not very clear details from the media. My source is mostly Al Jazeera, I'm almost certain they did not know what really happened to him. I thought he was going to return to Yemen once he has recovered from his injuries?

Are you sure Assad's reign is at an end? I get the feeling that he has plenty of support from Iran, maybe even China. He does not seem to be at the defensive at all.

I also agree that it is never a good idea for the West to be involved in war in the Middle East. One wonder why they can't learn from experience? Guess they are not much of history buffs are they?

I don't think Qadaffi could care any less about Supreme Councils in neighbouring countries. He's only interested in Libya and holding on to power as long as he lives. This guy is very single minded in his focus on control. The situation in Libya is unpredictable to me, but I am sorry the West is getting more and more involved.

Although Egypt does have a good education system, I don't agree that all of its neighbours are flocking to Egypt for better education. Lebanon is quite good, so are the UAE, Oman, Qatar and Kuwait. They have been importing expensive teaching staff from abroad for years, and are now reaping their rewards from that. Progress in education and training has been unbelievable. There is a totally different generation that is going to make a really great difference in the future. They have attended Universities in the West, returned to their countries and are working on improved environments.
TrueFact
It looks that the Arabian systems are learning from each other's tricks! Saleh have health problems like Mubarak but he preferred it to be more complicated. Now it looks like power will move into his son's hands. But Yemeni people were smarter and still protesting till they see actual reform and some faces changed. For us in Egypt, we fell for Mubarak's resignation!

I believe that European nor American Banks have nothing to do with Egyptian billions anymore. Mostly these billions are secured in other banks which didn't sign any international treaties to surrender back these accounts! It is too late for Egypt. I can recall British government representative saying: Egypt has to act FAST before it is too late.

What happened in South Africa is typical in Egypt. I was trial for "Criticizing the Supreme Council Online" but the ministers were cleared. Cops who killed protesters were freed few days ago as well although there are tens of eye-witnesses!

What I was trialled for is that I asked: "If the DoD was Mubarak's right hand for 20 years, doesn't it mean that he's corrupt as well?"

Islamophobia originates from the Arabian and Islamic countries in the first place, that's why Mubarak accused the Muslims Brotherhood of stirring things up in Egypt, and Assad claimed that no Christian will be safe if he resigns and now in Yemen they claim that Qadda is terrorizing people in southern Yemen!

The point is that Assad is getting little to no support from Iran! Simply put, Iran would support Shia'a in Lebanon rather Assad in Syria. Assad always suppressed Shia'a in Syria and Iran won't like that as it is the largest home for Shia'a. It is a long story between Sunna and Shia'a. Now and as Syrian people were able to show that millions are protesting and not just few gangesters, Assad is losing ground on the interior side of his country. The idea is, as in Lybia and soon in Egypt, the bill will be more expensive.

Lybia looks like getting to no where with NATO doing nothing! I don't think they lack intel about where Qaddafi is residing, they will let things go as they are now for longer times until Lybia is split up or people find his place on their own and bomb him away!

Today people are raged up even more. On past Tuesday, cops who shot, killed and tortured protesters and abducted female protesters, stripped them and investigated their virginity for nothing more than sadism or insulation. Just for the record, Muslims never have sex unless they are married, such a thing is most humiliating for Arabian and Muslim girls.

I never said Egypt has a good education system, but just has a better one! Lebanon was better till Hariri, the Ex-Prime Minister was murdered, I hear things went too bad after him. Maybe he was too good! Gulf countries have the tools but they lack the minds. For example, Saudi Arabia imports Egyptian Engineers more than building equipments!
TrueFact
You can ask me anything about education systems in Gulf countries and Egypt as my parents are teachers. They worked in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and of course Egypt. My father was promoted to an executive department manager and witnessed how different processes were handled. Too bad and too stupid to say the least. I tried the higher education in Egypt myself, and I had to learn my way and online just to qualify myself as an architect after I obtained my degree. Education in Egypt is almost free, about 10 USD per year, but in return everything else sucks. Private universities have better equipment, slightly better education but still useless in most cases. Post-graduation training is a must to compete in the market. Would you believe that 1000s of graduated students can barely write correct and neat Arabic? Their mother-tongue?

Anyways, I drifted away from Egypt's events! Sorry about that Very Happy

So Cops were freed up and today ministers were cleared! Check this! http://ht.ly/1dCHqT

So people raged up again and next Friday will put the Supreme Council to the test. There's a probability that the army may use brute force, but people are ready to pay whatever it takes.

The media already started to spread false news about people in Suez have ended their protests while Twitter and Facebook prove the opposite. Tahrir, or Liberty, Square started to mass up people again.

By the way, Suez was the hot zone in Egypt during 25 - 28 January period, but the media focused on Tahrir because the huge numbers massed up there!
deanhills
TrueFact wrote:
You can ask me anything about education systems in Gulf countries and Egypt as my parents are teachers. They worked in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and of course Egypt. My father was promoted to an executive department manager and witnessed how different processes were handled. Too bad and too stupid to say the least. I tried the higher education in Egypt myself, and I had to learn my way and online just to qualify myself as an architect after I obtained my degree. Education in Egypt is almost free, about 10 USD per year, but in return everything else sucks. Private universities have better equipment, slightly better education but still useless in most cases. Post-graduation training is a must to compete in the market. Would you believe that 1000s of graduated students can barely write correct and neat Arabic? Their mother-tongue?

Anyways, I drifted away from Egypt's events! Sorry about that Very Happy

So Cops were freed up and today ministers were cleared! Check this! http://ht.ly/1dCHqT

So people raged up again and next Friday will put the Supreme Council to the test. There's a probability that the army may use brute force, but people are ready to pay whatever it takes.

The media already started to spread false news about people in Suez have ended their protests while Twitter and Facebook prove the opposite. Tahrir, or Liberty, Square started to mass up people again.

By the way, Suez was the hot zone in Egypt during 25 - 28 January period, but the media focused on Tahrir because the huge numbers massed up there!
Thanks for posting TrueFact. My eyes are always peeled to read your posts as I am very interested in what is going on in Egypt. The real news. I was completely unaware there were still problems to the extreme extent you have mentioned. Because the media is so quiet. What you say makes of course sense, as of course the problems will continue until a new Government has been democratically elected, and when a court case like the one you quoted goes in this direction, people may be cynical about whether they will be getting the Government they were hoping for. You're so right about the media as Al Jazeera International is completely quiet about Egypt. The only reports we get from Al Jazeera are on Libya, Syria, Yemen. Not even on Bahrain.
TrueFact
You are welcome and thanks for caring!

We've made a list of accepted people for the position of Prime Minister and the Supreme Council of Armed Forces (SCAF - Check #NoSCAF on Twitter) have chosen Essam Sharaf. We believe he's a good man.

3 days ago, Essam Sharaf decided that 5 of his ministers have done nothing to achieve the tasks assigned to them. SCAF refused his decision without any clarifications.

What I want to say is: You can say we have a semi-elected government, but it looks like SCAF is completely corrupt and still serving Mubarak's best interests!

Al Jazeera was criticized heavily when focused on Egypt's news only and Egyptian Media was about to make Al Jazeera lose all credibility. As a solution, Al Jazeera launched a whole new channel called Al Jazeera Live Misr (Misr = Egypt in Arabic). In return, Egyptian news are very limited on every other channel it has!

Unfortunately, it is available only in Arabic. http://mubasher-misr.aljazeera.net

We can't forget that Al Jazeera is located in Qatar and we know there are loads of pressure applied to them to keep their mouths shut, specially after the role it played in Egyptian revolution and it was the spark for the Libyan. Other systems, I personally say Saudi Arabia for special, is a key factor for that silence!

Twitter in most cases is accurate, and there are tons of English Tweets.
Use the following hashtags:
#Tahrir
#Suez
#July8
#Jan25
#OldRegime
#NoSCAF and #SCAF
#MOI and #da5lia

For Facebook: We're All Khaled Said page, one of the main motivators in Jan25, has an English version and is accurate when publishing news.
https://www.facebook.com/elshaheeed.co.uk

If I know of other accurate sources in English, I'll post it.

Thanks again!
deanhills
TrueFact wrote:
Other systems, I personally say Saudi Arabia for special, is a key factor for that silence!
From what I've heard they are now working on Sudan as well. Sudan is a real disaster waiting to happen, particularly since there is oil involved. What is your opinion about what is happening in Sudan right now with North versus South and South having the oil and planning to withhold it from the North by building alternative pipelines that don't go through the North?

TrueFact wrote:
Twitter in most cases is accurate, and there are tons of English Tweets.
Use the following hashtags:
#Tahrir
#Suez
#July8
#Jan25
#OldRegime
#NoSCAF and #SCAF
#MOI and #da5lia
I've never been good with Twitter, except for Frihost when Frihost is down (which is a super rare occasion) Embarassed but now have a good reason to get my act together. Will check this out later in the day as I'm almost on my way to work, thanks! Very Happy

TrueFact wrote:
For Facebook: We're All Khaled Said page, one of the main motivators in Jan25, has an English version and is accurate when publishing news.
https://www.facebook.com/elshaheeed.co.uk
I will check that out too.

TrueFact wrote:
If I know of other accurate sources in English, I'll post it.
That would be great thanks! Very Happy
TrueFact
First things first, it is wrong and completely wrong to think about Oil only in Sudan. The Southern Sudan has most of the natural resources in Sudan. The west is only focusing on Oil in one city only.

For the record, Sudan is the largest exporter of livestock to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Libya. Moreover, Northern Sudan will starve as the Southern part has all wheat and barley farms which is used to make bread.

On the other hand, the Northern part has all the factories, universities and the civilized life is residing there.

When they split Sudan, a mass protest marched against it and claimed that the results were forged. Right the next day, Darfur anti-government movement was accused of killing some civilians and nothing was mentioned about this event anymore anywhere.

I can foresee the disaster coming in Sudan. I think things will go nasty when they declare the Southern part an independent state. There are already too much complications specially when it comes to migrating forcibly people from the the north to the south and vice versa. Just remember what happened in India when Gandhi split Pakistan from India.

Splitting Sudan ruined both parts. The north was the part processing what the south was producing, Now the North is poor with nothing to process, manufacture and export. The South will export everything as raw material which of course will be much much cheaper. This includes Oil itself.

We here in the Middle East has the idea that the West, specifically USA, Israel's guardian and UK the one established Israel in the first place, is trying to breakdown Arabic and Muslim states and split them into smaller countries and spark fights against them.

For Example, and in Egypt, we don't see Iran as a major threat to us even if they have nukes. On the Western part, the USA who has the largest arsenal of nuke and mass destruction warheads, is trying to disarm not only make Iran drop its Nuke programs.

It is an ever lasting problem between Arabs and Israel. If you support Israel, you're the Arabs Enemy, so USA and UK are the Arabs enemies. If Iran is the West's Nemesis, wouldn't the enemy of my enemy be my friend?

Just follow the line starting from Bosnia, Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan and currently Sudan. You'll see a systematic pattern.
deanhills
TrueFact wrote:
First things first, it is wrong and completely wrong to think about Oil only in Sudan. The Southern Sudan has most of the natural resources in Sudan. The west is only focusing on Oil in one city only.

For the record, Sudan is the largest exporter of livestock to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Libya. Moreover, Northern Sudan will starve as the Southern part has all wheat and barley farms which is used to make bread.

On the other hand, the Northern part has all the factories, universities and the civilized life is residing there.

When they split Sudan, a mass protest marched against it and claimed that the results were forged. Right the next day, Darfur anti-government movement was accused of killing some civilians and nothing was mentioned about this event anymore anywhere.

I can foresee the disaster coming in Sudan. I think things will go nasty when they declare the Southern part an independent state. There are already too much complications specially when it comes to migrating forcibly people from the the north to the south and vice versa. Just remember what happened in India when Gandhi split Pakistan from India.

Splitting Sudan ruined both parts. The north was the part processing what the south was producing, Now the North is poor with nothing to process, manufacture and export. The South will export everything as raw material which of course will be much much cheaper. This includes Oil itself.
Thanks for this information. It's amazingly useful. And again, with many more insights than Al Jazeera provided in an in depth show about Sudan a week ago.

TrueFact wrote:
First We here in the Middle East has the idea that the West, specifically USA, Israel's guardian and UK the one established Israel in the first place, is trying to breakdown Arabic and Muslim states and split them into smaller countries and spark fights against them.
I don't agree. I thought I saw Obama trying to involve the League of Arab Nations in finding a solution for Arab Nations' problems, i.e. Bahrain. I may be naive as I'm obviously not an expert, but I'm sure both the UK and the US have learned some major lessons with Iraq. I hope they will stay out of Libya too, so that Arab Nations can work out their own solutions.

TrueFact wrote:
For Example, and in Egypt, we don't see Iran as a major threat to us even if they have nukes. On the Western part, the USA who has the largest arsenal of nuke and mass destruction warheads, is trying to disarm not only make Iran drop its Nuke programs.
I don't agree with you on this one either. Again, I'm not the expert, but if there had been a democratically elected Government in Iran, who would not have minded the IAEA to inspect their nuclear facilities, like all other countries of the world with nuclear capability subscribe to, then I'd have agreed with you. Instead we have some very extremist Islamists in power who have definite objectives of expanding their borders into Iraq for example, i.e. having some very real scores to settle with them.

TrueFact wrote:
It is an ever lasting problem between Arabs and Israel. If you support Israel, you're the Arabs Enemy, so USA and UK are the Arabs enemies. If Iran is the West's Nemesis, wouldn't the enemy of my enemy be my friend?
Depends on what you mean with Arabs, as I don't see them as united as that. Even in the UAE you find great differences in culture between various tribes. As to trusting the USA and the UK, now there I would completely agree with you. I don't see their agenda in the Middle East as being transparent enough to trust them. I'm also not that certain that all of the Arab Nations are Iran's friend. There used to be a time when people were very focused in their anti-Israel sentiment, I'm sure they are still anti-Israel, but there are so many other regional issues going round right now, such as the unrest in their own countries I don't see any active plans as there had been a number of years ago to sort out Israel. Do you?
TrueFact
deanhills wrote:

I don't agree. I thought I saw Obama trying to involve the League of Arab Nations in finding a solution for Arab Nations' problems, i.e. Bahrain. I may be naive as I'm obviously not an expert, but I'm sure both the UK and the US have learned some major lessons with Iraq. I hope they will stay out of Libya too, so that Arab Nations can work out their own solutions.


Arab League is uesless. It is constitution simply put says: AL is not allowed to interfere or take any action against or for the good of any member. In other words, it does nothing and the action it took in Libya's situation is against its own rules.

So why did this happen? Why was Libya completely different?
Well, if the US invaded Libya, the whole Arab region will not stand still. USA had its reasons, war on terrorism, to invade Iraq but surely not in Libya's case. So the AL was there just to give them a permission so Arab's remain silent. Already every major site ran a poll to investigate Arab's trends about if we prefer a military action against Qaddafi. The majority said yes. One more thing, the US did nothing but the NATO did. So it doesn't looks like s a country vs country war. The US played it smart. Ask yourself a simple question: How a small French group could end the situation in Côte-d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast) while so far NATO can't locate or capture Qaddafi?

deanhills wrote:
I don't agree with you on this one either. Again, I'm not the expert, but if there had been a democratically elected Government in Iran, who would not have minded the IAEA to inspect their nuclear facilities, like all other countries of the world with nuclear capability subscribe to, then I'd have agreed with you. Instead we have some very extremist Islamists in power who have definite objectives of expanding their borders into Iraq for example, i.e. having some very real scores to settle with them.


Well, some people learn from Iraq! Iraq got its facilities investigated but in the end, things got complicated and a full-scale war was waged against it.

In Iran, maybe the government is not democratically elected, but we here - as people and individuals - like the Iranian course. Maybe we do this as we are Muslims as well or simply - again - because Iran is the US's nemesis!

On other hand, Korea has nuke programs but I don't see much pressure to let it drop its programs. So, it is all about Islam and disarming Muslims where the equation "Muslim = Terrorist" is always true for the West in general.

But recently I found something! What so called Islamo-phobia didn't appear after 9/11. It merged in Arabian countries first and then marketed to the West. For example, in Egypt, Islamists and Islamic groups were prohibited since the 1990s and the Muslim Brotherhood group is a declined group since Sadat's assassination (The president before Mubarak) as their members participated in the assassination. Although during the last few months, Sadat's family accused Mubarak of planning the assassination and helping it, things were buried quickly again as it seems some of SCAF members are involved too.

Anyways and since these times, if you have a beard, it is enough to go to jail without charge or being tortured to death. We have well known and filed cases for these actions by the police. This is were all the police violence started in Egypt.

For Syria and more recently, I think you'll remember Asad's speech warning about Islamists taking over the country and that no Christian will be safe! If we move to Yemen, Al-Qaeda is working hard there although Yemen won't be a strategical or even a useful target for them.

Well, in both cases it is not about Islamists, it is about the systems there. Islamo-phobia was planted in our countries long before the West heard about it.

At this point, I find myself obliged to explain why all these systems used the same mechanisms in mostly every aspect of life. When Israel was established, it was weak and not secure. In 1948 (when Israel was declared as a country) Jordanian forces had a strong hold in Gaza and the Egyptian and Syrian armies were (almost) on full-alert standby and were ready to march anytime. Out of no where, the Jordanian army withdrew and the alerts were turned off in Egypt and Syria letting Israel grow for the years to come. Except for 1973 war there was no military action against Israel where Egypt and Syria participated effectively and Jordanian and Libyan forces were for support only (Sadat used Libyan tanks and few fighters & Jordan supported Syria with artillery). Anyways, once Sinai in Egypt and Golan in Syria were reclaimed by these countries respectively, the war ended although Israel was smashed and took by the surprise. At that time, the propaganda was that Israel has the most powerful army which the Egyptian army was able to defeat in 6 hours only and the Bar-Lev line was ruined and burned to the ground.
TrueFact
And again, the most ridiculous things come out of no where! A seize-fire was made and Camp David was signed. Let's see what Camp David hold for Egypt:
1- A weak army with no more than approx. 425,000 active soldiers and officers.

2- US military aid to Egypt and a condition that Egypt will not buy weapons from other countries. In other words the Egyptian army is exploited and its arsenal is well known to Israel's biggest ally. Moreover, Egypt can only produce a limited amount of ammunition and permitted only to produce light-weight weapons (Egypt still using AK-47 for infantry, MiG fighters participated in 1976 war still being used with tons of Abrams M1A1 tanks).

3- Egypt is allowed to produce 40% of its needs of wheat. That's why Egypt is producing more sugar-cane than wheat although we have the capabilities and the suitable land to do so. The last year and when the USA didn't export the 60% we need from the US, we had to import it from Russia. It was corrupted and was sent back then tried the Ukrainian and we still hope it doesn't have the same bugs from the Russian cargo.

Anyways, because the Egyptian army has nothing to do this way, it turned to economical activities and now it holds and controls at least 25% of the entire Egyptian economy (According to German estimations). The army has factories for everything starting from mineral water bottles to furniture and electrical devices. I don't remember if I talked about this point when talked about SCAF's denial for every stance about it. Anyways, there's more about these factories were a recruited soldier gets less than 10USD a month to work 8 hours daily. They have no pension or health insurance and the soldiers can't even complain about it which maximizes the profitability and competitiveness of these factories.

There's more about Camp David but this is only what we know about it. The idea is: if you are the stronger and the one holding the bigger stick at that time, why would you take these terms? To our political analysts, they see it was the time the US and Israel bribed our leaders and established their systems to ensure Israel's safety. So for these and for other things, all Arabs share the same culture about Israel and whoever is supporting it!

Yes, we may look divided and actually we are, but the one good deed the Arab leaders did was planting the hate in our daily lives. From TV series and movies about Egyptian spies in Israel to celebration of October 6th (1973 war started on that day). Partially this was because a president like Mubarak had nothing to say about himself. This is true for Asad and his father if I recall things right.

Other countries and especially Gulf countries share the same culture as they participated economically in the war and cut the oil supplies off any supporting country. These include Qatar and Saudi Arabia as they were the largest oil exporters to the US.

Other factors also help this culture to be shared: for example the nature of being all Muslims while every one in Europe and Americas look to us as terrorists. Moreover, Islam and the virtues it called for helps us stay more united than what you think. I don't think the language help as much as Islam.

Just now on the TV by the way: Teaching English language in schools starts again in Libya. Qaddafi prohibited teaching it because it is the language of the enemy. So it looks they should be working for the good of Israel by ruining the countries they rule, they actually helped the nations to hate Israel and the US even more.

Wow, never typed such a long post for ages!
deanhills
TrueFact wrote:
deanhills wrote:

I don't agree. I thought I saw Obama trying to involve the League of Arab Nations in finding a solution for Arab Nations' problems, i.e. Bahrain. I may be naive as I'm obviously not an expert, but I'm sure both the UK and the US have learned some major lessons with Iraq. I hope they will stay out of Libya too, so that Arab Nations can work out their own solutions.
Arab League is uesless. It is constitution simply put says: AL is not allowed to interfere or take any action against or for the good of any member. In other words, it does nothing and the action it took in Libya's situation is against its own rules.
Sounds like the African League of Nations as well. Just curious, how did Saudi Arabia get to take action against Bahrain, was that a Saudi decision, or a joint Arab Nations one?

TrueFact wrote:
deanhills wrote:
So why did this happen? Why was Libya completely different?
Well, if the US invaded Libya, the whole Arab region will not stand still. USA had its reasons, war on terrorism, to invade Iraq but surely not in Libya's case. So the AL was there just to give them a permission so Arab's remain silent. Already every major site ran a poll to investigate Arab's trends about if we prefer a military action against Qaddafi. The majority said yes. One more thing, the US did nothing but the NATO did. So it doesn't looks like s a country vs country war. The US played it smart. Ask yourself a simple question: How a small French group could end the situation in Côte-d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast) while so far NATO can't locate or capture Qaddafi?
I think the US has run out of money as far as war in the Middle East is concerned, and it probably needs to choose its battles wisely. Particularly considering another Presidential Election coming up. I'd think if any country is to invade Libya, they'd probably put their money on France and Sarkozy.

TrueFact wrote:
But recently I found something! What so called Islamo-phobia didn't appear after 9/11. It merged in Arabian countries first and then marketed to the West. For example, in Egypt, Islamists and Islamic groups were prohibited since the 1990s and the Muslim Brotherhood group is a declined group since Sadat's assassination (The president before Mubarak) as their members participated in the assassination. Although during the last few months, Sadat's family accused Mubarak of planning the assassination and helping it, things were buried quickly again as it seems some of SCAF members are involved too.
I saw a program about this too. Islamists in Saudi Arabia for example are linked with training operatives in Sudan as well as elsewhere.
TrueFact wrote:
Anyways and since these times, if you have a beard, it is enough to go to jail without charge or being tortured to death. We have well known and filed cases for these actions by the police. This is were all the police violence started in Egypt.
That IS scary.
TrueFact wrote:
For Syria and more recently, I think you'll remember Asad's speech warning about Islamists taking over the country and that no Christian will be safe! If we move to Yemen, Al-Qaeda is working hard there although Yemen won't be a strategical or even a useful target for them.

Well, in both cases it is not about Islamists, it is about the systems there. Islamo-phobia was planted in our countries long before the West heard about it.
I had this explained to me yesterday by a guy from Somalia/US. He says that Yemen has a very unique system that would survive any Yemen leader.
TrueFact wrote:
At this point, I find myself obliged to explain why all these systems used the same mechanisms in mostly every aspect of life. When Israel was established, it was weak and not secure. In 1948 (when Israel was declared as a country) Jordanian forces had a strong hold in Gaza and the Egyptian and Syrian armies were (almost) on full-alert standby and were ready to march anytime. Out of no where, the Jordanian army withdrew and the alerts were turned off in Egypt and Syria letting Israel grow for the years to come. Except for 1973 war there was no military action against Israel where Egypt and Syria participated effectively and Jordanian and Libyan forces were for support only (Sadat used Libyan tanks and few fighters & Jordan supported Syria with artillery). Anyways, once Sinai in Egypt and Golan in Syria were reclaimed by these countries respectively, the war ended although Israel was smashed and took by the surprise. At that time, the propaganda was that Israel has the most powerful army which the Egyptian army was able to defeat in 6 hours only and the Bar-Lev line was ruined and burned to the ground.
Has the war ended however? I thought this is still ongoing. Except the tacts have changed?
TrueFact
Well, back to recent news in Egypt.
SCAF's last speech used an angry and threatening tone that no Egyptian liked and opposing to what SCAF thought, people massed even more.

We think that many people are afraid of opposing SCAF or we'll have another Libya. The threatening tone led to nothing but more rage and more masses. Although the summer isn't helping the masses, but people started to demand to remove Field Marshall Tantawy, Minister of Defense and currently Egypt's actual president. Although I were one of the people who called to remove Tantawy himself when Mubarak stepped down as he held this position for the last 20 years and surely he's as corrupt as Mubarak himself, no one would listen to me or whoever called for the same thing.

Egyptian media still under Moral Affairs department supervision which insures maximum and effective control over it. Well, the details here are hard to explain. Although we could mass millions of people again, this time the Media played its role very well. We found ourselves incapable of determining a single goal that everyone can seek.

Muslim Brotherhood seems to make deals with SCAF and looks like they are trying to reach the president's position but the are losing the public ground in the process. On January 26, they declared they won't participate in the protests and prohibited all their members from participating. On January 28 and when the Police vanished from the streets, they joined the masses. On February 11, when Mubarak stepped down, they said that they were a key factor for the success of the revolution!

Later on, they said they are nothing more than a social movement and have no political goals. A month later they established a party named "Alhorria and Addalah" (Freedom & Justice Party)! SCAF was really smart at this point. Some of the MB were imprisoned for Sadat's assassination. They were imprisoned for many years beyond their sentence. Once Mubarak stepped down, SCAF released them.

In MB, the longer you were a member and the more you've done for MB, the higher position you gain. These guys have more power than those outside the prison but they couldn't make use of this power in prison. When they got released, MB went into chaos thus the most organized group in Egypt is not organized anymore where the recently released leaders want to go the old way while others learned how to make deals to survive.

For April 6th Movement, they split into two parts one prefers to go into social work while the other is trying to keep going the same way they are. Recently in the media, talk-shows concentrated on April 6th and claimed they are financed by the USA (another example for the planted hate towards the US) and thus they can not be trusted. This is bringing both wings of April 6 to the ground. A small group of them realized where this will lead them, so they just withdrew from the movement untill it is united. The result was a third wing without hopes of unifying them again.

For public actions, Suez city in Sinai marched against releasing the murderer cops and literally said: Oh courts please rest, we'll avenge them with guns. Suez is more like Chicago where weapons collected from 73 war and those passed to Gaza and Lebanon every year is kept by some of Sinai tribes. Those tribes have the highest numbers of martyrs in Sinai and Suez. They can do what they promised and no one can trace them in the dessert of Sinai. This led to every police man to stick to his police station and actually do nothing about increasing crimes in the city. On the other hand, all crimes are committed by people relating to the old regime one way or the other. They found this when people captured several thugs committing some or all of these crimes. These crimes range from shooting randomly at the masses and killing and injuring about a dozen to robbery. Just yesterday, more of these happened in Port Said in State of Sinai. An eye-witness told me via twitter that there's heavy gun fire since 1:00am CLT (Cairo Local Time) but there's nothing so far on the media.
TrueFact
Suez, again, drove the masses back to streets and squares while Media is still focusing on Tahrir Square only. For this reason, masses are split between different approaches. Some of these are:
1- Group calling to have the constitution first and the opposing group saying we must elect a parliament first.
2- Group calling to seize SCAF and make it step down and the opposing group fear a possible chaos and prefer to keep it in charge.
3- Group calling to seize Essam Sharaf the Prime Minister and the opposing group think he's honest and shall keep his position.
4- Group focusing on trials should come first for cops and Mubarak's men.

The opposing groups are seen as the old regime's people in general but we don't have the evidence to prove it. The discussion is going like this for the first group:
If we elect a parliament first, we can't ensure the old regime's people won't get into it. In turn, the constitution will be as corrupt as the old one and the result will be zero. Nothing has changed. This results from the fact that all left wing parties were ineffective and the newly emerged parties didn't prove themselves on the stage letting the more experienced party eat up the parliament, the National Democratic Party which is Mubarak's and the most corrupt people's party.

The second group discuss that if SCAF stepped down or forced to, the question will be who'll rule Egypt till a parliament at least is elected? The anticipated or to be more specific the propagated chaos is marketed by the old regime's people. Our answer is: Egypt will be run the same way we suggested even before Mubarak resigned. A presidential council of four civilians and a military representative. With this council, the trials should be done first to ensure that every man or woman nominates him/herself will be all clear of any kind of corruption. Once the trials are over, we can elect a parliament then write a new constitution.

The third group looks to Sharaf as the only honest man in power and he's the key to Egypt's new era. Well, this way or the other, an increasing number demands him to step down too. Last week he announced that 9 of his ministers has achieved and/or done nothing to fulfill the tasks they are assigned to. SCAF denied the request to resign them and this was one of the reasons people massed again. This week, he was able to change some of these ministers while the MOI minister remained in his seat. This is expected to increase people's rage specially in Suez.

One of the things we got this week the publicity of the trials. We were not sure about the trials and we wanted a proof. Although the first trial to be casted live, the witnesses testifying were cut-off by the judge's command. The reason behind that is to not affect other witnesses. Of course this is ridiculous as the witnesses should be detained and isolated in the court to protect them against any pressures. Anyways, many people fell for it and they believe it.

One more thing, when Mubarak resigned, the previous MOI (Ministry of Interiors) minister and 3 other ministers plus a business man (Ahmed Ezz) who was also Secretary General of the National Democratic Party taped and the video was leaked to Youtube and Facebook. Since that time, it was the only video showing these guys behind bars in a court room. We started to wonder why it was the only one ever? The man who taped them was a simple private (In Egypt, MOI has non-ranked privates - like soldiers in the army - and Cops with all the ranks). And after the streets are amassed, another video is leaked showing Alaa Mubarak in what so called a prison.

Too much Coincidences, eh? Or too much pressure?
Well, every time SCAF takes an action live these, social networks and media is filled with people asking: What more you want? Stop it for Egypt's sake? The economy is collapsing for God's sake... and the like. These people are now widely referred to as the "Electronic Committee" of the NDP. The idea is, elder people who prefer a constant life is taking the same direction and some of them force their sons and daughters to leave whatever the square they protest in.

All what we say now: If SCAF won't take action unless millions mass up, we'll sit-in untill everything we demand is fulfilled specially for the things that won't take much time. In return we asked them: If a private in Alexandria charged for killing protesters could escape and the police can't find him, how do you thing we're going to trail Mubarak himself?

For Mubarak, a news headline in a TV show stated that Mubarak was never put in custody, detention or remand or whatever you want to call it! Well, the first question I personally asked: So what the hell is all that talking about his health problems that prevent moving him to the prison?!?!!!!!!
TrueFact
deanhills wrote:

Just curious, how did Saudi Arabia get to take action against Bahrain, was that a Saudi decision, or a joint Arab Nations one?

No, it was Saudi Arabia decision. It used Gulf Shield forces, like the UN forces, and sent only about 1000 infantries to secure the buildings. Of course this allowed the little police forces to concentrate on protesters. Saudi Arabia fears the majority of Shia'a in Bahrain although the ruling class is all Sunna.

deanhills wrote:
I think the US has run out of money as far as war in the Middle East is concerned, and it probably needs to choose its battles wisely. Particularly considering another Presidential Election coming up. I'd think if any country is to invade Libya, they'd probably put their money on France and Sarkozy.

The presidential elections is a good point. Obama doesn't want his people to get more angry because of another useless war taking into account that this one is not against terror, USA's perfect enemy! Moreover, USA started to prepare for it when they declared Bin Laden is dead! Once I heard the news, the first thought came to me was that USA is preparing for another full-scale war in Libya. It just needed to withdraw its forces from Afghanistan. Two wars simultaneously will be too much even for a country in the size of the USA.


deanhills wrote:
Has the war ended however? I thought this is still ongoing. Except the tacts have changed?

Officially, the war ended between the major parts: Egypt, Syria and Jordan on one side and Israel on the other. This war on its own is another example that Arabs will be united if one Arab country wages war against Israel.

Anyways, and because of Camp David treaty, Egypt is in peace with Israel and Egypt should normalize relations with Israel. Syria is pretty much the same. Lebanon is a little bit different because of Hezb Allah (Allah's Party or Allah's faithful Men) and their support to Gaza in particular and whole Palestine in general.

The war is ongoing but between Israel's armies and the unarmed people of Palestine. While Israel is drawing a picture of itself as a victim, the truth is completely mirrored. It is enough to watch the news about the Freedom Fleet II and the threats to acquire the ship that about to reach Gaza.
http://twitpic.com/5sf7f2
Don't you think it is weird to have a country established in 1948 while the already established country seeking to preserve its own land?
TrueFact
Just now:
People march towards the Council Of Ministers demanding:
1- Resignation of the Public Prosecutor (Attorney General)
2- Resignation of the Field Marshall Tantawy and head of SCAF
3- Execution of Habib Al-Adly (former Minister of Interiors) and Hosni Monarak (former president)

More to say:
The Chief of Commission of National Reconciliation Ahmed Fadhaly participated in the Camels attack on Tahrir Square! How ironic!

Some girl taped him on video directing thugs and paying them! The video was released few hours ago!
deanhills
TrueFact wrote:
Just now:
People march towards the Council Of Ministers demanding:
1- Resignation of the Public Prosecutor (Attorney General)
2- Resignation of the Field Marshall Tantawy and head of SCAF
3- Execution of Habib Al-Adly (former Minister of Interiors) and Hosni Monarak (former president)

More to say:
The Chief of Commission of National Reconciliation Ahmed Fadhaly participated in the Camels attack on Tahrir Square! How ironic!

Some girl taped him on video directing thugs and paying them! The video was released few hours ago!
Sounds as though there is another Tahrir Square gathering coming? May be a difficult summer for Egypt .... just feel sorry for tourism, as people here are concerned to visit Egypt for holidays.
TrueFact
There's a sit-in since July 8th in every city in Egypt. It is just not as large as usual because of the heat.

For tourism, I live in Aswan at the far south of Egypt and tourism is going as regular and Aswan is the second largest historic touring city in Egypt after Luxor. Luxor itself is 3 hours away from Aswan by car or 4 hours by train and 45 minutes by airplanes. Yesterday, the government said that airlines activity reached back to its normal levels indicating normal tourism movement. Moreover, summer here is too heavy for Europeans to bear, so mostly the low economic classes visit Egypt during the summer in general.
deanhills
TrueFact wrote:
For tourism, I live in Aswan at the far south of Egypt and tourism is going as regular and Aswan is the second largest historic touring city in Egypt after Luxor. Luxor itself is 3 hours away from Aswan by car or 4 hours by train and 45 minutes by airplanes. Yesterday, the government said that airlines activity reached back to its normal levels indicating normal tourism movement. Moreover, summer here is too heavy for Europeans to bear, so mostly the low economic classes visit Egypt during the summer in general.
I'm glad to hear that. I checked up on the map and Aswan is quite far from Khartoum. Would you say it's relatively more peaceful there? Do you visit the Red Sea quite often?
Very Happy
TrueFact
Aswan is completely peaceful even when it comes to protests and sit-ins.

I visit the Red Sea rarely due to my job plus the expenses needed to stay there for a week or a holiday. Mubarak made most of Sinai and Red Sea coastal cities for the higher class only. This extends to the labor their who usually complain about salaries are barely enough to cover the costs of living there in the city.

In other words, these places are not for the people, they are for tourist only!

By the way, tourism numbers are going down. It looks it is getting bad for the tourism after all!

For now, people put more pressure on SCAF to resign as well specially after more injuries on July 23. July23, 1952 was the day the Egyptian Army made a revolution and brought the military personnel to power in Egypt and Mubarak was their last. Protesters have chosen the day to mark their end and our start and demanded to make the last day of their revolution and to tell SCAF's members to resign. They marched towards SCAF's HQ but thugs cut their way while MP and Police blocked Abbassya Square and trapped protesters inside it and let thugs attack them. Eyewitnesses speak about MP jeeps carrying Molotov and rocks were supporting the thugs above a bridge to hit protesters below it.
This video was live from Aljazeera Live Egypt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH0PN5liodk&feature=featured

At first we heard it is unknown people hitting the protesters while the Egyptian media claimed it is people living in Abbassya Square. The word spread by the Egyptian Media that the majority of people of Egypt prefer to keep SCAF in power as he's the guardian of the Egyptian Revolution.

The question rises: What would happen if they just marched and went back to Tahrir Square? Other marches were completely peaceful, one of the was to make the General Prosecutor resign after few documents appeared proving he's an active member of the Old Regime of Mubarak!

People started to complain about Essam Sharaf but they are now split about him:
Some say he's good but SCAF won't let him anything and the others say he's just as bad as them. Either way, both parties agree that he should go as well with SCAF.

Some groups of the people are afraid about who will take control if SCAF goes! Others say change needs time and we have to take it slow. Islamists have the loudest voice now and they know how to play with people's emotions using religious words! The Muslims Brotherhood is planning for a huge march supporting SCAF after a long discussions among the people that they had a deal with SCAF.

Clashes can be foreseen between the people currently sitting-in and the upcoming march as the Muslims Brotherhood determined Tahrir Square a point to start from. This is of course lays lots of question marks on the road. Why not any other square in Cairo?! MB are not the only Islamic group marching but they are the largest.

Trials are decided to be public and casted on air, and Mubarak is scheduled to be trialed on August 3. Habib Al-Adly (Ex-Minister of Interiors) was rescheduled today to be on August 3 as well but didn't watch the trial yet. Roamers say that Mubarak is already dead. Some guess that this is a sort of preparing to prevent anyone from sending him to court and to keep everything buried.

There are other things which are considered minor but they add up and make people rage more like having 78 consultants in Ministry of Finance hired by the ex-minister Ghali and still in their positions. Some of these consultants are paid 680,000 EGP/month. The current minister of interiors was supposed to be changed as he didn't trial privates and cops accused of murder and escalated things when refused doing so. Instead, generals with extended service time beyond the retirement age were relieved of service with huge pensions and the lower ranks got promoted and got some raises.

That's the country Mubarak made, killers get promoted. Although there are pressures on the MOI to not trial any killer cop... as other cops declared they'll resign if any cop is trialled letting the country without any security forces. One of the reasons cops did that, is that they have no true power nor respect on the streets anymore. Actually this makes it harder for them to do their jobs, and some cases were seen to prove that and on the other hand, they seek total power like in Mubarak's era which people will not accept again!

SCAF made a mistake yesterday and announced that April 6 movement and its members traitors and seek to put Egypt in total chaos by stirring up a conflict between SCAF and the people. The Egyptian media says that SCAF is the whole army and can not be accused of treason and playing with people's emotions and repeated the accusations. April 6 refused the accusations and they are working hard to prove themselves innocent among the people.

We can anticipate this mistake to mass more people, as April 6 was one of the main keys to January 25 protests and its consequences.

Putting things together: With April 6 is able to mass more people, SCAF is using Islamists to make people hit each other and disassemble the sit-ins in Egypt.
TrueFact
Forgot to say that when OP and police trapped the people inside Abbassya Square, anyone tried to get out from MP's side was arrested. Moreover, the injured were arrested by MP in hospitals!!! and moved out to unknown destination.

This raises the attention as two mass graves in October 6 City were discovered! The first holds 158 bodies and the second holds about 60 bodies. The Egyptian media didn't say a word about it!

These approximately match the known numbers of missing people and most of them were reported to be arrested in Tahrir sit-in in the period from February 11 to April 8.

So far, we don't know the exact numbers of martyrs, dead thugs, dead policemen, injured and missing people. The government is doing nothing to count them as far as we know while Human Rights organizations try to put the estimations for these numbers.
deanhills
Wow! Thanks for all this information TrueFact! It must have taken you lots of time to write it. I'm grateful for your effort. You'll find it interesting that people from Egypt who are working in the UAE mostly keep quiet and don't speak a word of what is happening in Egypt.

TrueFact wrote:
Aswan is completely peaceful even when it comes to protests and sit-ins.

I visit the Red Sea rarely due to my job plus the expenses needed to stay there for a week or a holiday. Mubarak made most of Sinai and Red Sea coastal cities for the higher class only. This extends to the labor their who usually complain about salaries are barely enough to cover the costs of living there in the city.

In other words, these places are not for the people, they are for tourist only!

By the way, tourism numbers are going down. It looks it is getting bad for the tourism after all!
Amazing the huge disparity between Aswan and the coast that is so close to Aswan. I'm sorry to hear that tourism is not doing too good. I guess this must be then a good time to visit the Red Sea coastal cities. I hope this does not sound disrespectful, but I do love the Red Sea. Do you know of a nice place where it is less busy than Sharm El Sheikh and where one can snorkel in peace and quiet? I thought I might bypass Cairo and fly directly to Sharm El Sheikh. I'm currently still trying to figure where I can go for my summer holidays and am planning to go end of August/September. I particularly would like nice fresh air in the outdoors. We're cooped up here in mostly air-conditioned environments. Not very healthy at all. Very Happy
TrueFact wrote:
This video was live from Aljazeera Live Egypt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH0PN5liodk&feature=featured
I had a look at the Video, but of course can't understand what it says, as I don't know Arabic. But there's enough in it of course to show that things are really not doing well. Do you think that something major may go down in August when they are having the court hearings? And that they may then consider marching back to Tahrir Square?
TrueFact wrote:
Clashes can be foreseen between the people currently sitting-in and the upcoming march as the Muslims Brotherhood determined Tahrir Square a point to start from. This is of course lays lots of question marks on the road. Why not any other square in Cairo?! MB are not the only Islamic group marching but they are the largest.
I'd be worried about the Muslim Brotherhood too. Many people here thought they had been the major force behind the original sit-in at Tahrir Square. Maybe they've been waiting in the wings for the right moment to strike? I must say I'm really getting worried about fundamentalism all over the world. I can't help but think of Oslo, Norway as well. There are many people who are unhappy with how their Governments are running their affairs. But yes, in Egypt it is much worse because of the very high degree of corruption and dishonesty and I'm not surprised that the Caretaker Government is continuing with the corruption of appointing their friends into high-paying positions.
TrueFact wrote:
Forgot to say that when OP and police trapped the people inside Abbassya Square, anyone tried to get out from MP's side was arrested. Moreover, the injured were arrested by MP in hospitals!!! and moved out to unknown destination.

This raises the attention as two mass graves in October 6 City were discovered! The first holds 158 bodies and the second holds about 60 bodies. The Egyptian media didn't say a word about it!

These approximately match the known numbers of missing people and most of them were reported to be arrested in Tahrir sit-in in the period from February 11 to April 8.
I haven't heard a word about this either. Now that would really catch the attention of the international media if this were true. I'm a bit confused however, October 6 is well before February 11 sit-in, or is October 6 the name of a City? I'm also completely unaware that there were people missing from the sit-in.
TrueFact
You're welcome! Just trying to show what Egypt is, and that it is completely different than what those in power wants it to be.
deanhills wrote:
You'll find it interesting that people from Egypt who are working in the UAE mostly keep quiet and don't speak a word of what is happening in Egypt.


It is all about media! Arabs are known with accurate news circulation among the people, although this allows more roamers to find their way between the people in the mean time, but this became the most trusted source of news! This is because not everyone is using the Internet. Moreover, there are unknown groups forming what is being known as Technical Counter Forces of the National Democratic Party and the Electronic War Dept. of the Egyptian Army although their true identity is completely unknown. These groups started to invade Facebook pages and other social services with comments and other social methods to shift people's attention towards specific topics or issues or give a feeling that the majority of the Egyptian people wants the Army to lead and that there's no other alternatives, and if SCAF resigns, the country will go into chaos. Accusations are flying in the air, every group is accusing the others, socialists, politicians, and even Islamists. As I mentioned in a post before, SCAF accusing April 6 of being financed by foreign countries. Well, SCAF members and the entire Egyptian army is financed by the USA due to Camp David Treaties in 1977 and 1979. You can see a SCAF member reaction to the comparison in Washington here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lxNNmCCuNY (It is in English)

Additionally, the secrecy of the army made its corruption invisible for most people and hard to prove in most cases. They made a good use of Israel as a major threat to Egypt by saying: "If SCAF resigns, Israel is few steps away while Egypt's Army without leadership, without experienced wing commanders, etc." Blowing up the gas pipe feeding Israel several times and now Israel requesting a compensation for the damages occurred proves their words.

Finally, SCAF is making really good use when people screamed of love of the army when it came down to the streets. At that time people said: The Army and the people are one hand!" SCAF is accusing any opposing party or group or islamist of splitting the one hand or army and people!!! We tried to make people understand that SCAF members are not the army, but the Technical counter forces outrun us by claiming that army cannot be split for its unity and strength! We are struggling with emotions not minds specially when it comes to elder people!

"April 6 Movement" put huge efforts to spread accurate news and organize masses across the country that some of their members travel from state to state just telling what's happening in other cities and try to mass more people. Others stay in some city and get news from his trusted friends in "April 6 Movement" in Cairo, Suez, Alexandria, Luxor and other major cities.
TrueFact
deanhills wrote:
I guess this must be then a good time to visit the Red Sea coastal cities. ...
... Do you know of a nice place where it is less busy than Sharm El Sheikh and where one can snorkel in peace and quiet? I thought I might bypass Cairo and fly directly to Sharm El Sheikh. I'm currently still trying to figure where I can go for my summer holidays and am planning to go end of August/September. I particularly would like nice fresh air in the outdoors. We're cooped up here in mostly air-conditioned environments. Not very healthy at all. Very Happy

If you're going to the Red Sea, it would be Hurghada! you can take a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurghada and here http://www.hurghada.com/ but I'm not sure about the second site, don't book anything from them! And yes you can bypass Cairo. Both Sharm El Shaikh and Hurghada have international airports. You can start in Hurghada and tour Luxor and Aswan and Abu Simbel altogether in one pack mostly. You can cruse it from Luxor to Aswan, or take it by bus and visit some of the temples between Luxor and Aswan. Luxor and Aswan have international airports too. Note that Luxor have more frequent international flights than Aswan or Hurghada. Abu Simbel airport is for domestic flights only. You can have a transit flight, say: JFK airport, to Paris (mostly), Cairo to your final destination in Luxor, Hurghada or Aswan! The flight from USA to Egypt is too long so mostly it lands in Europe before it continues to Egypt. Most international flights land in Cairo or Alexandria, only a few head directly to other airports. You'll need to ask your carrier.

It is best to have a planned trip with a tourism agency in Egypt as it will be much better and cheaper in most cases. Moreover, it will protect you against frauds. You can define your routes in Egypt with pre-agreed prices. I'll try to find you a reliable one in Upper Egypt.
TrueFact
deanhills wrote:
Do you think that something major may go down in August when they are having the court hearings? And that they may then consider marching back to Tahrir Square?

First of all, the march ended on the same day, they launched it from Tahrir,"got trapped but finally the army made a way out for the people to leave"Abbassya Square which they did immediately.

Already Mubarak is said to have health issues again and may not be there on time. Later, they said: Mubarak's hearings will be in Sharm El Shaikh; while others: El Adly, Alaa and Gamal Mubarak and 6 others will be in Cairo in public place in Nasr City in Cairo. Hopefully they'll do it even for Mubarak's sons at least.

From my point of view, SCAF will sacrifice Mubarak and his sons for his own safety specially after a deal it has made with Muslims Brotherhood! One of the Islamists said that SCAF will grant them ruler-ship in return of closing all corruption files and cases! He slipped in a talk show. This comes right before the planned MB sit-in in Tahrir Square. Protesters in Tahrir Square already started to call for unified goals to make sure that no conflicts arise. All calls to make MB change and take another square has failed. Although it seems dark, but I started to see some light when the deal is exposed. This can be a reason to crack up MB and split it into people and leaders. People will merge with protesters in Tahrir Sq. while leaders will lose ground. It seems the biggest mistake of SCAF.

deanhills wrote:
I'd be worried about the Muslim Brotherhood too. Many people here thought they had been the major force behind the original sit-in at Tahrir Square. Maybe they've been waiting in the wings for the right moment to strike?


Not at all, they didn't join the masses in the period from January 25 to 28! That's the period when young people faced Central Security Forces (Anti-Riot forces) with their bare hands and naked chests against bullets. Check this page for those killed in the protests http://1000memories.com/egypt If you find a beard, you'll know he's an MB member! Any woman without a scarf is a Christian except for Sally Zahran.
Just a note: the list went longer with people died in hospitals because they weren't given the required medical care because of their parents couldn't afford the costs or the hospitals neglected them for sometime during January and February which led to more complications. The last died because of this is called Mai in Alexandria. Mai and her brother (who died immediately) were shot by the same cop. Bullets were compared against the cop's gun and proved to be the one used to kill them both. The cop started to stir rumors that there are no one with that name (Mai) and he didn't kill anyone. Two days ago, the father and his last son declared that the cop threatened them and they preferred not to make a public funeral and buried her secretly while thousands of people where waiting for Mai's funeral. This indicates that Police is still corrupt and Minister of Interiors has done nothing which started to rage people again specially in Alexandria.

Anyways, only when MOI Anti-Riots forces were defeated on the streets and couldn't handle the protests, the MB came out to join the masses. The funny thing is that they were able to convince people that they were a key factor for the success of the revolution and added huge masses to squares. What they are doing is like this: They refuse to join anything against SCAF or Mubarak at that time, but when large numbers start to mass, they fear losing their popularity among the people, so they decide to participate. Finally, and when the deal was made (mostly), they refused to join anything against SCAF even if people mass. The surprise for them was that people in the sit-ins said: "Even without MB, squares are full!" when their numbers exceeded several millions. Of course these words in Arabic had a better rhythm Smile

deanhills wrote:
I must say I'm really getting worried abowt"fundamentalism all over the world. I can't help but think of Oslo, Norway as well. There are many people who are unhappy wivh how their Governments are running their affairs. But yes, in Egypt it is much worse because of the very high degree of corruption and dishonesty and I'm not surprised that the Caretaker Government is continuing with the corruption of appointing their friends into high-paying positions.


Fundamentalism is spreading because of the media. With Islamo-phobia, you can think of Oslo as a direct result for the Arabian revolutions and revolts! Simply put, this guy was told that Terrorists (Muslims) are taking power in Arabian countries and Arab leaders are losing ground, power and Western support which will be a major threat to the whole world! I don't know if you the same news gets to you, but here in the local and Arabic media they say that this guy glorifies Israel as the best democratic country in the world and Israeli people struggle just to survive. This is completely mirrored truth to us. Oslo wasn't about a guy not satisfied with his government. From what I've seen here, he defended himself saying that: I tried to warn the world about the Islamists rise in the Arab world! and that they have to take action against them.

deanhills wrote:
But yes, in Egypt it is much worse because of the very high degree of corruption and dishonesty and I'm not surprised that the Caretaker Government is continuing with the corruption of appointing their friends into high-paying positions.


People here defending Essam Sharaf say there are pressures on him for these things as I said earlier. But even though, this is not enough specially with a recent piece of information"saying that Mubarak relieved Tantawy off his position few hours before SCAF took power Omar Soliman announced in his speech that Mubarak has resigned and assigned SCAF to run the country.

Although we expected at that time that SCAF and Mubarak are fighting over power as the only option to keep Mubarak in his position is to make the Army open fire. There are other things as well that suggests other scenarios like a testimony from an army private saying: We had orders to open"fire today (On January 29) but we declined and disobeyed order. When the interviewer asked him why: He simply said: They ordered us to fire at the people and we are part of the people, I won't shoot at my brother, friend or neighbor! No one ever investigated this private and what he said and we don't know if it is true! All we know is that we didn't see that private ever since.

If Tantawy was relieved from his position hours before Mubarak's resignation, then who gave that order? This leaves us to one possible argue: Mubarak gave the order himself after relieving Tantawy but Chief of Staff Samy Annan (who shortened his visit to the USA at that time and returned to Egypt) to stop this massacre before it starts. Moreover, soldiers started to see that Mubarak is not the guy they should protect specially when all cards were turned over and the masses proved there are no foreign financing nor KFC meals! (Omar Soliman claimed that protesters in Tahrir Square are given 50 USD and free KFC meals just to stay in Tahrir and on other streets Smile )
TrueFact
deanhills wrote:
I haven't heard a word about"this either. Now that would really catch the attention of the international media if this were true. I'm a bit confusgd however, October 6 is well before February 11 sit-in, or is October 6 the name of a City? I'm also completely unaware that there were people missing from the sit-in.

October 6 is the name of a city in Giza at the outskirts of Cairo. We have plenty of these names: October 6 City, Ramdhan 10 City (Ramdhan is a Hijri Calendar month), Obour City (Thg passing City) which are all renated to 1973 war with Israel. October 6, 1973 was Ramdhan 10 in Hijri calendar and they were the day 1973 war waged. Obour City indicates the Egyptian army when passed the Suez Canal to the Eastern Bank and made it into Sinai and defeated Bar-Lev line. This was made to glorify Mubarak as the first pilot to strike which is completely wrong. Mubarak was the Head of Air Forces and his butt was stick to a chair in Operations Room. But people actually believed he was a pilot in 1973 war.

This won't find its way to the international media as we knew it by news circulation but not through the local media. AlJazeera couldn't find a lead about the exact location and thus didn't say a word about these mass graves.

Again, there's no word about those arrested from Abbassya march and the injured arrested inside the hospital and we don't know if they're getting the medical care they should get!

Eye-witnesses (some of the well-known people here) also said that the attack on the march used not only molotov and rocks but gas bombs also. At this point, the attackers can not be civilians. Civilians can find some bottles and fill them with gazoline and use them as molotov bombs, rocks are handy (smashing the sidewalks and using tiles shards as rocks) but surely they don't have gas bombs along with shotguns to shoot them. It now seems as an ambush, a pretty organized one that no civilians can do. Of course, the media and police accused the civilians in the area of doing so. Newspapers described what happened using this scenario:
People in Abbassya heard that the march is going to attack SCAF's HQ while the marchers thought they are thugs and that's how and why they started the attack. The Army had to surround the area around them to prevent more thugs to join the fight.

Well too much question marks are here! First, eye-witnesses say that the army blocked their way once they saw them coming from a distance. There was no one attacking anyone when this happened! When the attack started, some people tried to shelter girls in the nearby mosque so MP jeeps closed its doors. Mosques are holy places and no attack should take place inside it just like any other church! Across the way there's a cathedral but MP blocked the road meters from it and prevented people from taking shelter in it too. Police forces blocked the way behind the marchers when they all reached the army barrier and were inside the square.

This completely sealed the square but a small street to the left of the marchers and this was the thugs' entrance to the square.

When people asked why the army and MP and even the Police forces didn't protect the marchers they replied: "They were all civilians and didn't know who's attacking and who's protecting themselves!! Crap, isn't it?

The MP officers claimed that they only blocked the road when the fight started, while people wonder you were there, you didn't come because the fight started, you weren't on any point of the road but this one, you've chosen the easiest place to make an ambush.

People asked: why did you close the mosque and blocked the way to the cathedral, and MP officer says: To protect the holy places or else another sectarian strife will wage larger fight if someone attacks either of them. Well, sectarian strives in Egypt is known to start with an attack on a church or a cathedral not a mosque! and they all proved to be planned and executed by the MOI corrupt officers!

The good thing about most of the eye-witnesses that they were in the square and calling several shows and talk-shows that were casting on-air at that time. Most of them are well-known characters and no one can claim they fabricated it later on. They were right in the middle of it and they describing what they see on air.

This Friday is expected to gather the people of Egypt again, and another revolution can be seen in the horizons. Too much mistakes by SCAF and Muslims Brotherhood, but there isn't a room to write about every detail, will unite the people again... or so I hope Smile
deanhills
TrueFact wrote:
October 6 is the name of a city in Giza at the outskirts of Cairo. We have plenty of these names: October 6 City, Ramdhan 10 City (Ramdhan is a Hijri Calendar month), Obour City (Thg passing City) which are all renated to 1973 war with Israel. October 6, 1973 was Ramdhan 10 in Hijri calendar and they were the day 1973 war waged. Obour City indicates the Egyptian army when passed the Suez Canal to the Eastern Bank and made it into Sinai and defeated Bar-Lev line.
Thanks for the explanation. This is VERY interesting.
TrueFact wrote:
This was made to glorify Mubarak as the first pilot to strike which is completely wrong. Mubarak was the Head of Air Forces and his butt was stick to a chair in Operations Room. But people actually believed he was a pilot in 1973 war.
Wow! What a reversal in fortune for him and how the mighty has fallen!

TrueFact wrote:
When people asked why the army and MP and even the Police forces didn't protect the marchers they replied: "They were all civilians and didn't know who's attacking and who's protecting themselves!! Crap, isn't it?
The impression I got (maybe through my own fault as I'm not sure it was through Al Jazeera International) is that the Military was deliberately staying out of it so as to remain strictly neutral. I think some of the articles even praised the Military for their restraint. The message had been that any thugs that had operated had been in the pay of Mubarak and his Government officials, NOT the military.

TrueFact wrote:
The good thing about most of the eye-witnesses that they were in the square and calling several shows and talk-shows that were casting on-air at that time. Most of them are well-known characters and no one can claim they fabricated it later on. They were right in the middle of it and they describing what they see on air.
Some of the media said however that it had been so totally crazy that it was difficult to get a real idea of what had been happening. They had been surrounded by so many different groups of people all shouting and scrambling at the same time, it was difficult to figure out accurately what had been happening, unless they had some inside information of a kind.

TrueFact wrote:
This Friday is expected to gather the people of Egypt again, and another revolution can be seen in the horizons. Too much mistakes by SCAF and Muslims Brotherhood, but there isn't a room to write about every detail, will unite the people again... or so I hope Smile
When I suggested to my friends from Sudan that I may be visiting the Red Sea area of Egypt they were very concerned. Everyone has been advised to stay out of Egypt unless they have some pressing business there. Some of my colleagues at work from Egypt, instead of visiting Egypt during the summer holidays got their families to visit them in the UAE, and this is the UAE's hottest time of the year!

Let's hope that it is not going to get completely out of hand as ultimately it's the people who suffer the most as no doubt it's going to have a really BAD effect on the economy. Am glad you're not in the thick of it.
paul_indo
Things are looking a bit unsure for the future of Egypt, hope the revolution isn't hijacked like it was in Iran.

Reminds me of an old joke.

Guard: "King, the peasants are revolting."
King: "You can say that again."

Sorry if this is sort of off topic but it does fit in I think, just some light hearted humour..
mahirh
They say a picture is worth a thousand words so i guess a Hitler parody would be worth 1,920,000 words!
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