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Satanism Re Edited





foumy6
Okay so my last thread for this got a little out of hand so lets try this again!
Here is some info for people
-Anton Szandor LaVey formally started the church of satan
-He was also know as the black pope
-no longer living
-Satanism is not straight forward Satan worship
-Satanists do not hate god/ or not believe in him

Quote:

IT is a popular misconception that the
Satanist does not believe in God. The concept of "God", as interpreted by man,
has been so varied throughout the ages, that the Satanist simply accepts the
definition which suits him best. Man has always created his gods, rather than
his gods creating him. God is, to some, benign - to others, terrifying. To the
Satanist "God" - by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all - is seen
as the balancing factor in nature, and not as being concerned with suffering.
This powerful force which permeates and balances the universe is far too
impersonal to care about the happiness or misery of flesh-and-blood creatures on
this ball of dirt upon which we live.
Anyone who thinks of Satan as evil should consider all the men, women, children,
and animals who have died because it was "God's will". Certainly a person
grieving the untimely loss of a loved one whould much rather have their loved
one with them than in God's hands! Instead, they are unctuously consoled by
their clergyman who says, "It was God's will, my dear"; or "He is in God's hands
now, my son." Such phrases have been a convenient way for religionists to
condone or excuse the mercilessness of God. But if God is in complete control
and as benign as he is supposed to be, why does He allow these things to happen?
Too long have religionists been falling back on their bibles and rulebooks to
prove or disprove, justify, condemn, or interpret.
The Satanist realizes that man, and the action and reaction of the universe

-this is a very good example
if anyone else has some thing to add please do!
-this is not a thread for bashing me or this religion!
deanhills
To be truthful foumy6, I don't see anything new in your OP that has not already been discussed in the previous thread. Can you give us some guidelines of exactly what you want to be discussed? If you check out the previous thread Ankhanu started with a good intro:
Ankhanu wrote:
"Satanism" is a rather misleading term, loaded with several mutually exclusive ideas. There are myriad forms of Satanism, including both theistic and atheistic forms, most largely unrelated to one another. The form of Satanism the OP is referring to is an atheistic humanist version; it makes use of the symbolism of Satan, but does not deify it, nor does it say that Satan actually exists as an entity. There are, however, Satanism forms that actually do worship Satan as he appears in Christian lore. The two are very different. Technically, one could even argue that any religious belief that is not Christian, or is even a deviation from "true" Christian belief, is Satanic; mechanations of the great deceiver himself.
Satanism is an umbrella term.

Think of the scope of "Satanism" to be akin to the scope of "fish" as it relates to food, it includes animals from multiple phyla (primarily Vertebrates, Mollusks and Arthropods) and different groups withing those phyla (ie. bony fishes and cartilaginous fishes, even jawless fishes)... a statement applying to one form of "fish" won't necessarily hold for all classifications of "fish". For example, saying "watch out for bones" when someone is eating some herring has meaning, but it doesn't if someone is eating lobster.

C'tair then came up with this meaningful comment:
c'tair wrote:
Pretty much this, again. Satanism is not a theistic belief, but a philosophical stance. Even in the Satanic Bible, it is written the Satan symbolizes this and that, usually freedom and pursuing all that life has to offer. You'd be surprised by reading the Satanic Bible really reads like a self help book, like Eckhart Tolle or even some entrepreneurship related work like The Four Hour Work Week, except it deals with life's principles on the most basic level instead of how to organize your employees.

Another constructive comment by Ankhanu:
Ankhanu wrote:
Satanism has virtually nothing what so ever to do with God. It does use Christian symbolism, however... but that is not to say it has a Christian basis. Satan is not explored using your limited concept of "the deceiver", rather it is Satan's act of rebellion against an authoritarian dictator that is highlighted. That symbolic act of personal strength, conviction and even principles is what is gleaned from the concept of Satan. The name is also intended to highlight how one's preconceptions can blind one to truth... clearly this works very well, at least to highlight preconceptions, if not to overcome them.

Then after a bit of a digression and fistfight, this constructive comment came from c'tair:
c'tair wrote:
Anyways, back on topic. There was a time a time when I was deeply interested in this philosophical views promoted by LaVey. I found it as appealing as one might find objectivism appealing, viewing the world as your playground and having absolute power of your life. I've found that many successful life changing strategies involve many of those "satanic" fundamentals, even reading things like psychological self help books or motivational biographies of greats like Theodore Roosevelt - things like responsibility for your own actions, taking action in this life instead of waiting for some promise of an afterlife etc.

While I don't consider myself a satanist, I'd consider many of my views to agree with what LaVey wrote in his book. I think I even have a copy of it somewhere in the back of my closet, I should give a fresh read when I have some free time.

Then a further fist fight ending with you wishing to start a new thread ..... perhaps we can start over with the above constructive comments? Or did you want a different framework for the discussion?
foumy6
yes i just want people to post facts about satanism not get in agruments about stuff that can stay in the other thread this one if for educating people and the facts
deanhills
foumy6 wrote:
Anyone who thinks of Satan as evil should consider all the men, women, children,
and animals who have died because it was "God's will". Certainly a person
grieving the untimely loss of a loved one whould much rather have their loved
one with them than in God's hands! Instead, they are unctuously consoled by
their clergyman who says, "It was God's will, my dear"; or "He is in God's hands
now, my son." Such phrases have been a convenient way for religionists to
condone or excuse the mercilessness of God. But if God is in complete control
and as benign as he is supposed to be, why does He allow these things to happen?
Too long have religionists been falling back on their bibles and rulebooks to
prove or disprove, justify, condemn, or interpret.
The Satanist realizes that man, and the action and reaction of the universe
Shouldn't you delete the above statement from your OP if you want the discussion to be restricted to Satanism only in a positive discussion? As you are obviously challenging those who think satanism is evil. Resulting in the kind of discussion that you apparently did not want in the previous thread. You can't have it both ways. Make a challenge like that, and expect it to be ignored by those who do not agree with you.
achowles
Maybe you could clarify for me how exactly it is that Satanism isn't defined by its opposition to Christianity and instead has its own agenda.

Everything I've read about LaVey Satanism (including your own words above) still seem tainted with the sense that they're defining themselves more by what they're opposed to rather than what they actually believe and follow. Yes, I know Satanism has it's own code and outlook. But the link back to Christianity is right there in the name and seems to permeate throughout the philosophy.

I suppose what I'm asking is: why can't Satanists entirely divorce themselves from Christianity and follow their own path? After all, isn't that what Satanism is supposed to be about? If the philosophy itself can't do that then it's hard to see how it can help others do so.
deanhills
achowles wrote:
I suppose what I'm asking is: why can't Satanists entirely divorce themselves from Christianity and follow their own path? After all, isn't that what Satanism is supposed to be about? If the philosophy itself can't do that then it's hard to see how it can help others do so.
I thought that was what atheism was about as well. Can't they just ignore Christians (as trollers, bigots, hypocrites .... etc.) and stick to a world of no theism in it. Is it possible? Shocked

Somehow I don't think that is possible. There seems to be a bond between theism and atheism that goes quite deep. Almost like bipartisan religion. The one's existence depends on expressing non-identification with the other and in doing that atheists/theists feel compelled to list their reasons in opposition to one another? But then that kind of non-identification is also an identification of sorts, isn't it? Twisted Evil
Ankhanu
deanhills wrote:
achowles wrote:
I suppose what I'm asking is: why can't Satanists entirely divorce themselves from Christianity and follow their own path? After all, isn't that what Satanism is supposed to be about? If the philosophy itself can't do that then it's hard to see how it can help others do so.
I thought that was what atheism was about as well. Can't they just ignore Christians (as trollers, bigots, hypocrites .... etc.) and stick to a world of no theism in it. Is it possible? Shocked


About as possible as it is for you, living in the UAE, to stick to a world without Arabs in it Wink
deanhills
Ankhanu wrote:
deanhills wrote:
achowles wrote:
I suppose what I'm asking is: why can't Satanists entirely divorce themselves from Christianity and follow their own path? After all, isn't that what Satanism is supposed to be about? If the philosophy itself can't do that then it's hard to see how it can help others do so.
I thought that was what atheism was about as well. Can't they just ignore Christians (as trollers, bigots, hypocrites .... etc.) and stick to a world of no theism in it. Is it possible? Shocked


About as possible as it is for you, living in the UAE, to stick to a world without Arabs in it Wink
Good point. But then I don't have a problem with the people living around me. I also don't really see them as Arabs. I see them as Emiratis, Omanis, Sudanese, Somalians, Ethiopians, Nigerians, Pakistanis, Indians, Syrians, Jordanians, Palestinians, Yemenis, Qataris, Bahrainis, Egyptians, Lebanese, Nepalese, Afghans, ........ there are definitely culture differences even amongst Arabs. The beauty of living here is getting past the culture differences. One of my best friends is from Sudan. He may be Arab, but there is an enormous difference between his culture and the culture of an Emirati. And even amongst Emiratis there are tribal differences.
achowles
deanhills wrote:
I thought that was what atheism was about as well. Can't they just ignore Christians (as trollers, bigots, hypocrites .... etc.) and stick to a world of no theism in it. Is it possible? Shocked

Somehow I don't think that is possible. There seems to be a bond between theism and atheism that goes quite deep. Almost like bipartisan religion. The one's existence depends on expressing non-identification with the other and in doing that atheists/theists feel compelled to list their reasons in opposition to one another? But then that kind of non-identification is also an identification of sorts, isn't it? Twisted Evil


Not really ...

You see, while the definition of atheism does indeed require there to be theism, that's all there is to it: the word. The name. The branding. That is all. You don't have to like the term for it to fit you.

An atheist's beliefs could be anything that doesn't involve gods. So if everyone suddenly decided that maybe there weren't any gods after all, an atheist's beliefs wouldn't be affected by that. They might be affected in many ways, but not in religious outlook. A Satanist clearly cannot claim the same. It's about adversity, and if you keep pushing when that which you're opposing has disappeared you'll just fall over and look a bit silly.

As to your other question: can someone be completely unaffected by theism? No, clearly not while theists are in the overwhelming majority. That is why you tend to see more opposition to religion from atheists. As otherwise society would have continued to be very religion-centric and under the indirect control of the Church. If you don't want that then you oppose that. Unfortunate, but true.
Bikerman
That was well put.
deanhills
achowles wrote:
As to your other question: can someone be completely unaffected by theism? No, clearly not while theists are in the overwhelming majority. That is why you tend to see more opposition to religion from atheists. As otherwise society would have continued to be very religion-centric and under the indirect control of the Church. If you don't want that then you oppose that. Unfortunate, but true.
Could this then be a movement to convert theists to atheism? It sounds that way? As if it is, you can't claim that atheist is just something that you are called. It starts to become something meaningful, more than what the word atheist suggests. It is developed into campaigns for example that Richard Dawkins makes contributions to. People get to say they are atheists, as something that is part of their identity in being opposed to theism. It is no longer passive.
Bluedoll
achowles wrote:
As to your other question: can someone be completely unaffected by theism? No, clearly not while theists are in the overwhelming majority. That is why you tend to see more opposition to religion from atheists. As otherwise society would have continued to be very religion-centric and under the indirect control of the Church. If you don't want that then you oppose that. Unfortunate, but true.
But are you not making an assumption? (here am I talking in tongues? –atheist tongue) Wink
The assumption is that the ‘CHURCH’ is God’s control over mankind. Have you considered the possibility that the ‘CHURCH’ is acting independently of God? Every stone is going to be overturned when translated into atheist tongue does mean you are right but not taking into account the possibility that God does not control all earthly activities. To think so, is a misconception for those that belief wholly in just religion period. You may think atheists have it hard in the world because they show opposition but every part of society has an unrest though some remain silent. Perhaps atheists have it hard because they are subject to anger, arguments and frustrations by believing to some extent the truth but not willing to make an important connection. A person can also be in opposition to false religion without resorting to saying I do not believe in God or that everything existing is God’s will . There is an alternative and there should be for anyone in opposition to anything of a non-caring and/or selfish attitude which will in time affect any follower the same way.
Bikerman
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