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God wants us to learn experiencially





jeffryjon
Spending too much time thinking is somewhat of a modern 'disease', though once we know about something the need to think about it is greatly reduced. Knowledge is useful and of course the advent of books and other mass media for sharing information can be helpful to a point though without experience it is mere bookish learning. When we engage with a subject matter - getting directly involved - we can learn through experience providing something that goes beyond knowledge and in a limited sense can lead to wisdom.
deanhills
I think knowledge can sometimes be in the way, as soon as we think we know something, we don't really know as we are less open to information about the subject. Gaining knowledge through experience is great, but if one takes driving for example, experience is not enough, one would need to learn more about how the road system works, what the rules and regulations are, etc. And then once we get our license if we should think that we know enough about driving, that can be an impediment, as we probably need to always be open to learn more, and that is assuming that we can never know enough about driving.
Ankhanu
There are certain bits of learning that can only be experiential, and experience can greatly temper raw knowledge. My own field of insect taxonomy is a fine mix of book and experiential learning... and when an expert is lost, they're very difficult to replace due to the loss of experience and personal knowledge.

deanhills wrote:
I think knowledge can sometimes be in the way, as soon as we think we know something, we don't really know as we are less open to information about the subject.

I guess this depends on how curious a mind one possesses. The vast majority of scientists I've ever encountered, myself among them, do not fit this mold. The more we know, the more it's revealed that we don't know, which sets us seeking more on the subject. It's a never ending process; learn something, learn that there's more to know, learn some more, repeat... learn that what you learned before wasn't quite right, refine it, find more questions, etc., etc..
I have met people who do kind of hit brick walls to progress when they learn something though... but yeah, they're generally not very curious people.


deanhills wrote:
Gaining knowledge through experience is great, but if one takes driving for example, experience is not enough, one would need to learn more about how the road system works, what the rules and regulations are, etc. And then once we get our license if we should think that we know enough about driving, that can be an impediment, as we probably need to always be open to learn more, and that is assuming that we can never know enough about driving.


There ya go. Not a bad example.
deanhills
Ankhanu wrote:
There are certain bits of learning that can only be experiential, and experience can greatly temper raw knowledge. My own field of insect taxonomy is a fine mix of book and experiential learning... and when an expert is lost, they're very difficult to replace due to the loss of experience and personal knowledge.

deanhills wrote:
I think knowledge can sometimes be in the way, as soon as we think we know something, we don't really know as we are less open to information about the subject.

I guess this depends on how curious a mind one possesses. The vast majority of scientists I've ever encountered, myself among them, do not fit this mold. The more we know, the more it's revealed that we don't know, which sets us seeking more on the subject. It's a never ending process; learn something, learn that there's more to know, learn some more, repeat... learn that what you learned before wasn't quite right, refine it, find more questions, etc., etc..
I have met people who do kind of hit brick walls to progress when they learn something though... but yeah, they're generally not very curious people.
Perhaps I should rephrase this then, as I think in essence we think the same. The moment one thinks one knows, one shuts off the possibility of learning more about what one "does not know". From your description, you always assume that you can know more, so that must mean that you don't assume you know everything. So knowledge is obviously not in your way.
jeffryjon
So is a life a big research project? - "Let's have a go and see what happens" - we search - sometimes in books, documentaries etc - find them helpful, yet inadequate - search some more (re-search) and continually define and redefine as each level of searching provides more. experience
achowles
Take a look at people who have just left college or university in the job they've been studying for. More often than not you're going to see very quickly how advantageous and indeed necessary learning from experience really is. If the subject matter is important to you then you do owe it to yourself to do more than just read a couple of articles on it.

Of course the catch of learning through experience is that it is comparatively an incredibly slow process. Furthermore, as per my above example you'd still be learning from the experience of others regardless. Learning from the findings of others in the only way we can ever hope to advance society towards something better after all. It's not something we can sideline without highly detrimental consequences.

So yes, there is perhaps a lack of practical material in education and too much focus on drilling reference material into students without adequately providing the all important context. There does need to be a better balance. If nothing else I think that providing a better understanding of the context of what is being learned will help that knowledge stick.
Ankhanu
jeffryjon wrote:
So is a life a big research project?


That seems to be part of the general Christian view, yeah Smile Especially when you add in concepts like original sin and the like, then life becomes a big research project on atoning for the sins you came in with and overcoming the very nature of what is human in order to become clean enough to enter Heaven and stand at God's side. Part of that is the experience of living and building wisdom and knowledge to persevere.
deanhills
jeffryjon wrote:
So is a life a big research project? - "Let's have a go and see what happens" - we search - sometimes in books, documentaries etc - find them helpful, yet inadequate - search some more (re-search) and continually define and redefine as each level of searching provides more. experience
Right, and then one day when we are not thinking at all, a little toddler comes up with an enormously wise little statement and turns all of the knowledge upside down in one fell swoop. It's during moments like those that I have to laugh at my accumulation of knowledge. Much more fun anyway to learn about life through the eyes of a child. Very Happy
Bluedoll
I agree all the intellectuals in the world can not bring you happiness. A child can point you in far better direction than that. Jesus Christ I think has many analogies concerning children or child like but then the bible does not really describe what he said as analogies does it. When he spoke, he spoke with illustrations and simple ones at that which ordinary people understood and could relate to. In life we can find so many very stupid educated people that miss the important points so profoundly. This does not mean that education is bad of course just that sometimes people can get lost in knowledge to the point they deviate away from the more important things. Children provide that equalization but only if we allow them in. Experience is the better teacher but only if we only listen to it.
deanhills
This is a good point Bluedoll. I really believe in that saying about ignorance being bliss. Knowledge can sometimes become a real burden to a person. There was a poet in South Africa who compared it with a thorn bush, and sticking your hand into the thorn bush, and the deeper you stick your hand in, the more you get scratched and the more difficult to get your hand out. Sort of true about too much thinking. Very Happy
Ankhanu
EDIT - removed accidental information; actual post was the following part


That's a pretty dangerous line of thinking, I'd say.
First, it equated intelligence and knowledge; while they are related to some degree. Knowledge is collected information. Intelligence is the propensity to process information. Even the dull can attain great stores of knowledge; it just takes longer.
Children, while lacking knowledge, are often quite intelligent; their minds are developing, there is a high degree of neurological plasticity, and they're curious. They're not always good at considering things critically, but they generally thirst for information and mental stimulation.

It's also important to distinguish intelligence & knowledge from personality and communication skill Razz Being intelligent and knowledgeable does not automatically make one relate well to others, or even communicate their knowledge effectively. This sort of disconnect from others can bring unhappiness and frustration, for sure.

Thinking, and more importantly exploring (critically) can lead to a wonderland of information, possibility and appreciation for how things are. There are patterns everywhere, and they're really quite beautiful, even if sometimes they appear, on the surface, to be grotesque (the biology of parasitoids is a fine example there). The more you know, the more you can recognize what you don't know, and it can be very liberating… I suppose if one possesses a less curious mind, the utter dearth of what we know could be quite frightening, however. I could understand if some people would recoil from such an admission/recognition; but there are plenty who revel in it. It's really quite exciting and astounding how asking one question can lead to dozens more questions Smile

Ignorance can be bliss, sure… some of reality isn't so nice… and it's easier to ignore things that are uncomfortable or undesirable. Purposely wearing blinders to such things is mildly dishonest, I think. Genuine ignorance can be an interesting thing, however… but it's more of a limitation than a virtue, in my opinion.

Think about it, when are children are happiest?
When they're exploring new things, when they're learning about themselves and the people and world around them.
If this is what Jesus teaches, it's a damn fine lesson. I'm not so certain that that was the point, however…
deanhills
Ankhanu wrote:
deanhills wrote:
… sometimes it is very difficult to respond without being defensive when attacked. Atheists don't see any ugly references to symbols of religion such as the Bible as "an attack", but Christians may do. Being tactful, can go a long way in getting the dialogue to be civil. Mocking and belittling are also not good for civil debate either. That is how I see it anyway.

Did you quote the above from this thread and this discussion? Where did you get it from? Confused

Ankhanu wrote:
Hell, I didn't even take this personally:
Anonymous Frihoster wrote:
... My only regret is saying anything to you, because I can gather from other threads that you are an inconsiderate jerk, and you're full of yourself.

… and it was aimed directly at me Razz I recognized the accurate elements and
I'm not sure exactly what your point is with this? How do you bring the two together?

I don't get this either?
Ankhanu wrote:
6 july, 9am Elania

Pagurus arcuatus
Pagurus acadianus
Pagurus longicarpus


Ankhanu wrote:
That's a pretty dangerous line of thinking, I'd say.
What thinking are you referring to? The above or my previous post? Bizarre!
Ankhanu wrote:
First, it equated intelligence and knowledge; while they are related to some degree. Knowledge is collected information. Intelligence is the propensity to process information. Even the dull can attain great stores of knowledge; it just takes longer.
Children, while lacking knowledge, are often quite intelligent; their minds are developing, there is a high degree of neurological plasticity, and they're curious. They're not always good at considering things critically, but they generally thirst for information and mental stimulation.

It's also important to distinguish intelligence & knowledge from personality and communication skill Razz Being intelligent and knowledgeable does not automatically make one relate well to others, or even communicate their knowledge effectively. This sort of disconnect from others can bring unhappiness and frustration, for sure.

Thinking, and more importantly exploring (critically) can lead to a wonderland of information, possibility and appreciation for how things are. There are patterns everywhere, and they're really quite beautiful, even if sometimes they appear, on the surface, to be grotesque (the biology of parasitoids is a fine example there). The more you know, the more you can recognize what you don't know, and it can be very liberating… I suppose if one possesses a less curious mind, the utter dearth of what we know could be quite frightening, however. I could understand if some people would recoil from such an admission/recognition; but there are plenty who revel in it. It's really quite exciting and astounding how asking one question can lead to dozens more questions Smile

Ignorance can be bliss, sure… some of reality isn't so nice… and it's easier to ignore things that are uncomfortable or undesirable. Purposely wearing blinders to such things is mildly dishonest, I think. Genuine ignorance can be an interesting thing, however… but it's more of a limitation than a virtue, in my opinion.

Think about it, when are children are happiest?
When they're exploring new things, when they're learning about themselves and the people and world around them.
If this is what Jesus teaches, it's a damn fine lesson. I'm not so certain that that was the point, however…
I'm sorry Ankhanu. I have a distinct impression you are having a discussion with yourself? I was not referring to children in my post. Where did you get that from?
Bluedoll
Matthew 21:15-16 (Contemporary English Version)
But the chief priests and the teachers of the Law of Moses were angry when they saw his miracles and heard the children shouting praises to the Son of David. The men said to Jesus, "Don't you hear what those children are saying?"
"Yes, I do!" Jesus answered. "Don't you know that the Scriptures say, `Children and infants will sing praises'?"

I think this fits with what is being discussed. Notice that the most scholarly men of that day, remember it is in the age of the Romans before that Greeks would debate at great length in the courtyards. These were religious men yet it was the children that understood and not the headmen. Men can sometimes be blinded by all they know or pay too much attention to high sounding things and not see the true picture. Look, I am not trying to change anything of what a person might believe but only express what you already know that it is possible sometimes for educated people to completely miss the boat and that is not ignorance, wearing blinders or bliss that the children were seeing, it was genuine. The angry teachers were blinded probably by their own ego’s. All the thinking in the world can not change what is true.
Ankhanu
deanhills wrote:
Did you quote the above from this thread and this discussion? Where did you get it from? Confused

Whoops, nope, that came from something that I started replying to the other week, plus a bunch of extra junk completely unrelated to Frih... I wrote my reply in TextEdit, using the same file I'd been taking some notes in, and copied all rather than just the immediately relevant stuff. I'll edit my post so it is relevant Razz
Ankhanu
deanhills wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:
That's a pretty dangerous line of thinking, I'd say.
What thinking are you referring to? The above or my previous post? Bizarre!


The prior two posts from yourself and Bluedoll.

Ankhanu wrote:
I'm sorry Ankhanu. I have a distinct impression you are having a discussion with yourself? I was not referring to children in my post. Where did you get that from?

From Bluedoll:
Bluedoll wrote:
Jesus Christ I think has many analogies concerning children or child like...

Aside from that, I made a mistake, believing this was the discussion in You are little, for which that was a bit more pertinent Razz I was kinda working in the wrong thread, my bad, but, the point still applies.
deanhills
Ankhanu wrote:
deanhills wrote:
Did you quote the above from this thread and this discussion? Where did you get it from? Confused

Whoops, nope, that came from something that I started replying to the other week, plus a bunch of extra junk completely unrelated to Frih... I wrote my reply in TextEdit, using the same file I'd been taking some notes in, and copied all rather than just the immediately relevant stuff. I'll edit my post so it is relevant Razz
What a relief! I thought that you had finally succumbed to an irrational exuberance virus of sorts! Very Happy
deanhills
Ankhanu wrote:
deanhills wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:
That's a pretty dangerous line of thinking, I'd say.
What thinking are you referring to? The above or my previous post? Bizarre!


The prior two posts from yourself and Bluedoll.
I don't know where I wrote that post, but the "Dean" quote you are referring to was not from this Forum. You probably noticed that most of the materials here are towards the end of March before Bluedoll resuscitated it just before my first comment last night. So it still does not make much sense.
Ankhanu
deanhills wrote:
I really believe in that saying about ignorance being bliss.


That, in part, is what I think is dangerous thinking in your post. How it being dangerous makes sense is outlined in the post where I commented on it.
deanhills
deanhills wrote:
I'm sorry Ankhanu. I have a distinct impression you are having a discussion with yourself? I was not referring to children in my post. Where did you get that from?

Ankhanu wrote:
deanhills wrote:
I really believe in that saying about ignorance being bliss.


That, in part, is what I think is dangerous thinking in your post. How it being dangerous makes sense is outlined in the post where I commented on it.
I did respond to that post Ankhanu (refer above) after working quite hard to decipher your post. It is obvious of course that I was referring to genuine ignorance and not purposeful ignorance:
Quote:
Purposely wearing blinders to such things is mildly dishonest, I think. Genuine ignorance can be an interesting thing, however… but it's more of a limitation than a virtue, in my opinion.
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