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Satanism





foumy6
I know what most people think about satanism, that they are demon loving people who pray to satan. Just that small statement is very incorrect. In truth satanism is just about living life to the fullest and diving into all of mans wants and lusts. To learn more read the satanic bible. Now this thread is for people to post TRUE info that they know about satanism Smile enjoy!

[I have changed the colour of this posting, since it was originally all in red. Some moderators, like me, use red to illustrate a moderation decision and I don't want any confusion to arise - Bikerman]
c'tair
Uh, didn't LaVey write in his text that satanism is NOT
Quote:
living life to the fullest and diving into all of mans wants and lusts

?
If you want me to I can whip out the black bible and find it, but I clearly remember fragments saying that satanism is not mindless hedonism but a rather directed and rational approach to gain happiness. There's a big difference, as the first would imply satanists being open to orgies and drugs whilst the latter is rather focused on true LaVeyan satanism aka "doing your own thing, disregard the naysayers".
Ankhanu
Yeah, personal empowerment and enlightenment, not pleasure seeking.
domz
any form of religion is man made.
LittleBlackKitten
If you're going to post one-liners like this with no argument, domz, reasoning, opinion, or anything of the like, not very many people will pay any attention to you.
deanhills
LittleBlackKitten wrote:
If you're going to post one-liners like this with no argument, domz, reasoning, opinion, or anything of the like, not very many people will pay any attention to you.
Agreed. But domz did make a very good point that says a lot. Just not so sure what it has to do with Satanism however, except maybe he sees Satanism as a religion, and therefore Satanism is man made? I don't particularly understand what Satanism is about these days. There seems to be Satanism that is religious and where Satan is worshipped, and then there is a more secular version that is of the more intellectual variety.
Ankhanu
deanhills wrote:
LittleBlackKitten wrote:
If you're going to post one-liners like this with no argument, domz, reasoning, opinion, or anything of the like, not very many people will pay any attention to you.
Agreed. But domz did make a very good point that says a lot. Just not so sure what it has to do with Satanism however, except maybe he sees Satanism as a religion, and therefore Satanism is man made?


Ya know, I agree. The post is kind of a joke in its format, but the point is valid and meaningful... particularly in the scope of the OP.
The difference between the OP's Satanism and many other religions is that it is quite unabashedly aware of, and celebratory of the fact that it is a human invention. It has no allusions to being anything more.

deanhills wrote:
I don't particularly understand what Satanism is about these days. There seems to be Satanism that is religious and where Satan is worshipped, and then there is a more secular version that is of the more intellectual variety.


"Satanism" is a rather misleading term, loaded with several mutually exclusive ideas. There are myriad forms of Satanism, including both theistic and atheistic forms, most largely unrelated to one another. The form of Satanism the OP is referring to is an atheistic humanist version; it makes use of the symbolism of Satan, but does not deify it, nor does it say that Satan actually exists as an entity. There are, however, Satanism forms that actually do worship Satan as he appears in Christian lore. The two are very different. Technically, one could even argue that any religious belief that is not Christian, or is even a deviation from "true" Christian belief, is Satanic; mechanations of the great deceiver himself.
Satanism is an umbrella term.

Think of the scope of "Satanism" to be akin to the scope of "fish" as it relates to food, it includes animals from multiple phyla (primarily Vertebrates, Mollusks and Arthropods) and different groups withing those phyla (ie. bony fishes and cartilaginous fishes, even jawless fishes)... a statement applying to one form of "fish" won't necessarily hold for all classifications of "fish". For example, saying "watch out for bones" when someone is eating some herring has meaning, but it doesn't if someone is eating lobster.
achowles
If nothing else foumy6's post does a good job of showing how every belief system can be warped and twisted to suit the machinations of the individual. I wouldn't normally have thought this would apply to something of this nature, which in its own way is more akin to a spiritual philosophy than a religion.

Nonetheless, this is something that has plagued every current religion and no doubt every religion ever created has suffered this to some degree. It's unavoidable. Even if the belief system wasn't originally created as a control mechanism there will be those who will try and twist it into one. Not that I'm saying that's what foumy6 is doing, mind.
Ankhanu
achowles wrote:
If nothing else foumy6's post does a good job of showing how every belief system can be warped and twisted to suit the machinations of the individual. I wouldn't normally have thought this would apply to something of this nature, which in its own way is more akin to a spiritual philosophy than a religion.

Nonetheless, this is something that has plagued every current religion and no doubt every religion ever created has suffered this to some degree. It's unavoidable. Even if the belief system wasn't originally created as a control mechanism there will be those who will try and twist it into one. Not that I'm saying that's what foumy6 is doing, mind.


I'm not sure what you mean here... is it just about the mistaken interpretation that Satanism is essentially hedonism, or something else?
deanhills
achowles wrote:
Even if the belief system wasn't originally created as a control mechanism there will be those who will try and twist it into one. Not that I'm saying that's what foumy6 is doing, mind.
Totally agreed, especially those who are critical of that belief system.
Bluedoll
I relate to Satanism in the same way that Satan is mentioned in the bible. It exists but for me the highlight is always displaying on how not to go. Diving into all of mans wants and lusts is perhaps enticing but not always advantageous.
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
I relate to Satanism in the same way that Satan is mentioned in the bible. It exists but for me the highlight is always displaying on how not to go. Diving into all of mans wants and lusts is perhaps enticing but not always advantageous.
I'm inclined to think the same way as you Bluedoll. However looks as though the meaning of Satanism has changed sufficiently to make it into something that is not necessarily evil. There would be a large number of Satanists who would also insist that they see it as insulting to be associated with a belief system that "dives into man's wants and lusts". Ankhanu explained it well for me earlier on in this discussion:
Quote:
"Satanism" is a rather misleading term, loaded with several mutually exclusive ideas. There are myriad forms of Satanism, including both theistic and atheistic forms, most largely unrelated to one another. The form of Satanism the OP is referring to is an atheistic humanist version; it makes use of the symbolism of Satan, but does not deify it, nor does it say that Satan actually exists as an entity. There are, however, Satanism forms that actually do worship Satan as he appears in Christian lore. The two are very different. Technically, one could even argue that any religious belief that is not Christian, or is even a deviation from "true" Christian belief, is Satanic; mechanations of the great deceiver himself.
Satanism is an umbrella term.

Think of the scope of "Satanism" to be akin to the scope of "fish" as it relates to food, it includes animals from multiple phyla (primarily Vertebrates, Mollusks and Arthropods) and different groups withing those phyla (ie. bony fishes and cartilaginous fishes, even jawless fishes)... a statement applying to one form of "fish" won't necessarily hold for all classifications of "fish". For example, saying "watch out for bones" when someone is eating some herring has meaning, but it doesn't if someone is eating lobster.
achowles
Ankhanu wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean here... is it just about the mistaken interpretation that Satanism is essentially hedonism, or something else?


Unless foumy6 hasn't followed his own advice and actually looked into the principals and beliefs of LaVey Satanism then I'm not so inclined to chalk it up to an innocent mistake. Then again even if that is the case - that they never bothered researching the subject themselves - they're still taking something to mean what they want it to rather than the intended clearly state meaning all the same. Which while less deliberate the results are the same.
achowles
deanhills wrote:
Totally agreed, especially those who are critical of that belief system.


Fair point. After all a lot of positive changes in religions have are the result of people wanting to adhere to that religion but feel increasing distaste towards certain aspects of it. Or they see those aspects as untrue in light of scientific discoveries. But this is still a corruption of the original religion and its teachings all the same.

Personally I think it would be for the best if people recognised the difference between their beliefs and organised religion and when these two things aren't in harmony with each other then they're simply not a part of that religion, but something similar. Religions that are dragged out beyond their realistic lifespan seem to have an increasingly negative effect on society as a whole. They corrupt.
c'tair
deanhills wrote:
Bluedoll wrote:
I relate to Satanism in the same way that Satan is mentioned in the bible. It exists but for me the highlight is always displaying on how not to go. Diving into all of mans wants and lusts is perhaps enticing but not always advantageous.
I'm inclined to think the same way as you Bluedoll. However looks as though the meaning of Satanism has changed sufficiently to make it into something that is not necessarily evil. There would be a large number of Satanists who would also insist that they see it as insulting to be associated with a belief system that "dives into man's wants and lusts". Ankhanu explained it well for me earlier on in this discussion:
Quote:
"Satanism" is a rather misleading term, loaded with several mutually exclusive ideas. There are myriad forms of Satanism, including both theistic and atheistic forms, most largely unrelated to one another. The form of Satanism the OP is referring to is an atheistic humanist version; it makes use of the symbolism of Satan, but does not deify it, nor does it say that Satan actually exists as an entity. There are, however, Satanism forms that actually do worship Satan as he appears in Christian lore. The two are very different. Technically, one could even argue that any religious belief that is not Christian, or is even a deviation from "true" Christian belief, is Satanic; mechanations of the great deceiver himself.
Satanism is an umbrella term.

Think of the scope of "Satanism" to be akin to the scope of "fish" as it relates to food, it includes animals from multiple phyla (primarily Vertebrates, Mollusks and Arthropods) and different groups withing those phyla (ie. bony fishes and cartilaginous fishes, even jawless fishes)... a statement applying to one form of "fish" won't necessarily hold for all classifications of "fish". For example, saying "watch out for bones" when someone is eating some herring has meaning, but it doesn't if someone is eating lobster.


Pretty much this, again. Satanism is not a theistic belief, but a philosophical stance. Even in the Satanic Bible, it is written the Satan symbolizes this and that, usually freedom and pursuing all that life has to offer. You'd be surprised by reading the Satanic Bible really reads like a self help book, like Eckhart Tolle or even some entrepreneurship related work like The Four Hour Work Week, except it deals with life's principles on the most basic level instead of how to organize your employees.
Bluedoll
foumy6 wrote:
In truth satanism is just about living life to the fullest and diving into all of mans wants and lusts.


@Deanhills
It is possible, that I could write a book that had a philosophical stance entitled hitlerism too! In my book I could go on to explain that whites should be separated from the coloured. On further examination readers might find that the purpose of my book was to promote organization skills and the subject was about separating and washing our clothes pile in the washing machine.

Although possibly and I repeat possibly no fault might be found in my writings, there is fault to be found in the title I chose. Hitlerism does contain racial overtones and in the case of my book would only be used as an attention gathering tool which in my opinion is a very immoral authoring (could not an author/advertiser be more creative than to use that kind of false representation to get attention?).

The two titles hitlerism and satanism demonstrate qualities of a similar nature. Dictatorship and generation of lies to promote negative propaganda is underlying in the titles. If you want me to accept this title as something not necessarily evil as you Deanhills has described it, could you also consider my stance on these things more closely please? If you understand my stance, you will understand my reasoning and see that I am not merely attempting to be offensive.

I do understand your thinking on these kinds of posts but I can assure you that my thinking on Biblical subjects are reflective on a spiritual persuasion of from my very kind, very loving, and most knowledgeable almighty God whom will help me understand what I need to know. I do not desire some man whoever he may be, advising me in these subjects. Thank you very much but no!

All to often in these posts, I find that too much reference is given to what someone has discussed as the ‘law’ on the subject matter or sometimes references to some author that only thinks he knows the truth on these subjects.

I will put all my trust in God and not that of earthly man to direct my thinking. Perhaps we should remember that these subjects are about religion and are not about philosophy. If someone or some group is offended by what I write, so be it. On these specific subjects (God, satanism, spirituality, religion) although, I am not writing to purposely attach an offensive statement, I am also not writing to please the readers and tickle their ears with a lot of false reasoning, the kind of reasoning that come from un-Godly deviations. I will put my faith in God.
Ankhanu
Bluedoll wrote:
I will put all my trust in God and not that of earthly man to direct my thinking. Perhaps we should remember that these subjects are about religion and are not about philosophy. If someone or some group is offended by what I write, so be it. On these specific subjects (God, satanism, spirituality, religion) although, I am not writing to purposely attach an offensive statement, I am also not writing to please the readers and tickle their ears with a lot of false reasoning, the kind of reasoning that come from un-Godly deviations. I will put my faith in God.


You miss the point completely. In the context of Satanism, it is suggested that you put your trust in neither God, nor in Earthly man, but in yourself. The point is to trust your faculties, to revel in your own ability to divine right and wrong, the freedom to choose your path, to live righteously and answer to nothing but yourself and how to get along with other beings, who are also free.

Satanism has virtually nothing what so ever to do with God. It does use Christian symbolism, however... but that is not to say it has a Christian basis. Satan is not explored using your limited concept of "the deceiver", rather it is Satan's act of rebellion against an authoritarian dictator that is highlighted. That symbolic act of personal strength, conviction and even principles is what is gleaned from the concept of Satan. The name is also intended to highlight how one's preconceptions can blind one to truth... clearly this works very well, at least to highlight preconceptions, if not to overcome them.
deanhills
achowles wrote:
Religions that are dragged out beyond their realistic lifespan seem to have an increasingly negative effect on society as a whole. They corrupt.
I don't know whether I agree completely with this. Maybe they just evolve and change into something different, like Catholicism did into Protestant yet both continued to exist. It reminds me a little of the book by George Orwell called "Animal Farm" when after the animals had taken over the farm started with the following very noble and simple rules :
Quote:
1.Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
2.Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
3.No animal shall wear clothes.
4.No animal shall sleep in a bed.
5.No animal shall drink alcohol.
6.No animal shall kill any other animal.
7.All animals are equal.

But then as the pigs started to evolve into something different, acting more like the humans who had oppressed the animals before, they started to make embellishments to the rules:
Quote:
1.No animal shall sleep in a bed with sheets.
2.No animal shall drink alcohol to excess.
3.No animal shall kill any other animal without cause.

Eventually the laws are replaced with:
Quote:
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others", and "Four legs good, two legs better!"
as the pigs become more human.

So maybe there were animals who stuck with the original rules that were completely anti-human, they did not move on to the next step when the rules had been modified to include some of the human luxuries. And then maybe there were those who stuck with the second stage while others had moved onto the third stage of changes to the rules, and all three originated from the same belief system, but evolved into something different.
Bluedoll wrote:
The two titles hitlerism and satanism demonstrate qualities of a similar nature. Dictatorship and generation of lies to promote negative propaganda is underlying in the titles. If you want me to accept this title as something not necessarily evil as you Deanhills has described it, could you also consider my stance on these things more closely please? If you understand my stance, you will understand my reasoning and see that I am not merely attempting to be offensive.
I would not be able to compare Hitlerism with Satanism. Hitlerism is synonymous with National Socialism (Nazism) that was the ideology of the Nazy party and involved biological racism and antisemitism. I don't think that has changed at all over the years. Satanism is:
Quote:
Satanism is a group of religions that is composed of a diverse number of ideological and philosophical beliefs and social phenomena.
Satanism religion can be both good or bad (depending your point of view), similar to some of the Christian sects that are mostly heretic, like the ones you would find where one charismatic pastor would recruit young people and create the women in more or less sex slaves. I don't think that is a far fetch from its opposite sect in Satanism that likes to go for bodily lusts.
achowles
deanhills wrote:
I don't know whether I agree completely with this.


Interesting that you should compare organised religion to Animal Farm as it is intentionally targeted at politics. Organised religion and politics have a lot in common.

As per your analogy, I suppose that would make Catholicism the pigs. Not flattering, but right now I'm not overly inclined to argue. They're the ones in charge that bent the rules to suit their increasingly debauched ways. The Protestant denominations were the ones who wanted to maintain the rules that were set down in the first place and were willing to risk persecution to do so.

That seems to hold some weight. To the outside observer it would appear that it is Catholicism that has become the most corrupted. By its very nature it is in fact designed to corrupt - to surrender to and conceal sin. This is why the concealment of paedophilia within the Church is on such a massive worldwide scale. It's an integral part of their policy to conceal all such things no matter what. It's a breeding ground for evil.

But now of course it's not just the internal factors that are destroying the credibility of Christianity. Now there the increasing weight of scientific findings that have shed new light on our origins and those of the universe. So now the Church has to bend further and further to a point where you have to wonder exactly what role they think that God has left in our creation and day to day lives.

But whatever the case, it's a corruption. You could look at this as a form of evolution, but religion is reliant on no such process. If the old religion is obsolete then it can be replaced with a new one. One free of all of the problems associated with the old one. So it won't have to deal with issues of women's rights and homosexual marriage or the general barbarity associated with Bible stories and laws.
deanhills
achowles wrote:
As per your analogy, I suppose that would make Catholicism the pigs.
Think Bikerman would like that analogy .... Laughing
achowles wrote:
They're the ones in charge that bent the rules to suit their increasingly debauched ways. The Protestant denominations were the ones who wanted to maintain the rules that were set down in the first place and were willing to risk persecution to do so.
Agreed. But soon Protestanism may get to the stage of debauched ways too, and then we will get the next thing as well. I already see this with family of mine in South Africa. Moving away from pure Protestanism to something that is much more real to life and alive, the equivalent of Protestanism must have been just after the persecution years a few centuries ago.

achowles wrote:
That seems to hold some weight. To the outside observer it would appear that it is Catholicism that has become the most corrupted. By its very nature it is in fact designed to corrupt - to surrender to and conceal sin. This is why the concealment of paedophilia within the Church is on such a massive worldwide scale. It's an integral part of their policy to conceal all such things no matter what. It's a breeding ground for evil.
Is it still concealed however, as maybe the whole idea of priests who are not supposed to have sex, and boys who are dressed up like angels must have an unwritten unholy script attached to it.

achowles wrote:
But now of course it's not just the internal factors that are destroying the credibility of Christianity. Now there the increasing weight of scientific findings that have shed new light on our origins and those of the universe. So now the Church has to bend further and further to a point where you have to wonder exactly what role they think that God has left in our creation and day to day lives.
Completely true. I've noticed that with my family in South Africa, except, instead of more secular, they have become more genuine in their faith. I get the notion that this is beginning to happen in the States as well. They are moving away from your traditional Protestant type beliefs, and going for something that is more real, instead of believing that one has to be evacuated to heaven and hell in order to experience heaven and hell, they are seeing heaven and hell on earth. I also believe that this change is happening in politics as well. I can't see the traditional political systems such as the bipartisan one in the US surviving when it is making so little sense and none of the younger people can relate or identify with it.

achowles wrote:
But whatever the case, it's a corruption. You could look at this as a form of evolution, but religion is reliant on no such process. If the old religion is obsolete then it can be replaced with a new one.
I'd rather think of it as evolving, than changing, although change is part of it all. None of us are thinking the same way as we did when we were at school, our thinking is also different to that of our parents, or to people of the same age of a hundred years ago. If religion cannot evolve, then it won't be able to keep up. Amazing though that through the centuries it is usually this "corruptness" that gets it to revive, but in a different form, such as protestantism did from catholic.
Ankhanu
deanhills wrote:
I'd rather think of it as evolving, than changing...


What's the difference? You're using synonyms.
Bluedoll
Ankhanu wrote:
Bluedoll wrote:
I will put all my trust in God and not that of earthly man to direct my thinking. Perhaps we should remember that these subjects are about religion and are not about philosophy. If someone or some group is offended by what I write, so be it. On these specific subjects (God, satanism, spirituality, religion) although, I am not writing to purposely attach an offensive statement, I am also not writing to please the readers and tickle their ears with a lot of false reasoning, the kind of reasoning that come from un-Godly deviations. I will put my faith in God.


You miss the point completely. In the context of Satanism, it is suggested that you put your trust in neither God, nor in Earthly man, but in yourself. The point is to trust your faculties, to revel in your own ability to divine right and wrong, the freedom to choose your path, to live righteously and answer to nothing but yourself and how to get along with other beings, who are also free.

Satanism has virtually nothing what so ever to do with God. It does use Christian symbolism, however... but that is not to say it has a Christian basis. Satan is not explored using your limited concept of "the deceiver", rather it is Satan's act of rebellion against an authoritarian dictator that is highlighted. That symbolic act of personal strength, conviction and even principles is what is gleaned from the concept of Satan. The name is also intended to highlight how one's preconceptions can blind one to truth... clearly this works very well, at least to highlight preconceptions, if not to overcome them.


Perhaps you are missing my point completely! You say that satanism has nothing what so ever to do with God and I can accept this from this perspective when you later go on to say it is being used to overcome some kind of authority. I do not argue the point but agree on that point as it is described only will scream stop deceiving you liar (the point) if you dare swear on your bible that satanism is not a religion. It is not just philosophy (to consider it to be would be the lie) by the way you describe her.

That being said it is entirely the point that your trust and faith in yourself is a complete devotion and you are free to choose your path and also to live righteously but you will not be free because in doing so you have declared satanism to be the master of you.

The truth is you will at some point die and then you will find your immortality is based on what? Rejection of God that has real power.
Ankhanu
Remember, this is the Faith forum, Bluedoll, we're working within the context of the OP, (a mistaken interpretation of) LeVayan Satanism.
IIRC, LeVayan Satanism says absolutely nothing about immortality, nor does it present a belief in God. It has also not been asserted that this form of Satanism is not religion, on the contrary, it is considered religion, though one without deity (not that swearing on a Bible has any symbolic authority for over half of the planet's population anyway).
Bluedoll
Ankhanu wrote:
Remember, this is the Faith forum, Bluedoll, we're working within the context of the OP, (a mistaken interpretation of) LeVayan Satanism.
IIRC, LeVayan Satanism says absolutely nothing about immortality, nor does it present a belief in God. It has also not been asserted that this form of Satanism is not religion, on the contrary, it is considered religion, though one without deity (not that swearing on a Bible has any symbolic authority for over half of the planet's population anyway).
Not following you at all! What is your point? I was not referring to the Bible but the stupid bible written by this dork Anton LaVeyan old skin head, what a ugly creep he is.

one of its nine satanic statements is simply so hilarious

Quote:
"satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years"


Yeah! Yeah! thank you God for all our blessing and thank satan for all his garbage!

Laughing
c'tair
His point was that since this a Faith forum with special rules, bringing the Christian God into a thread about LaVeyan Satanism is like bringing Atheism into a Christian God thread. If the latter happened, you'd be screaming for moderators to purge the rule-breakers, but here you are doing it yourself.

Satanism uses Christian symbolism, it never uses any faith. It actually parodies the Christian faith to make it's own points which aren't even always contrary to the Christian faith
Quote:

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth:
(...)
9 Do not harm little children.

So, before you continue to derail this thread by bringing in your God in and by launching childish ad hominem attacks against LaVey, think if you'd like a hardcore Atheist to go into your thread and start refuting all your points and calling God a grumpy old murderer. If I remember correctly, the Faith forum was created specifically to avoid these problems.

Edit: Also, I would like to point out your behaviour. If you believe that God created Man, thus Anton LaVey is also a creation of God, is he not? If you are calling him
Quote:
this dork Anton LaVeyan old skin head, what a ugly creep he is.
, you are also saying that God's work isn't good enough. Where is this Christian love? Oh yeah, forgot, you can hate and slander non-believers all you want.
(End of offtopic)
deanhills
c'tair wrote:
Satanism uses Christian symbolism, it never uses any faith. It actually parodies the Christian faith to make it's own points which aren't even always contrary to the Christian faith
So is atheism then also satanism as it uses the invisible pink unicorn and flying spaghetti monster as parodies of Christian faith? By your definition then what would the difference be between atheism and satanism?
Ankhanu
LeVayan Satanism is a subset of Atheism, dean. Where Atheism says nothing other than "I don't believe in gods", Satanism has rules of conduct, world view, etc. etc. We seem to be getting into old, familiar territory with bringing this up again.
deanhills
Ankhanu wrote:
LeVayan Satanism is a subset of Atheism, dean. Where Atheism says nothing other than "I don't believe in gods", Satanism has rules of conduct, world view, etc. etc. We seem to be getting into old, familiar territory with bringing this up again.
My question was more one of irony following the statement that was made along the lines of if a=b and c=b then a=c. I don't see atheism and satanism as the same. My response was one of irony.

I see satanism as an umbrella of religions and beliefs, some of it can be in opposition to Christianity, i.e. an upside down theism if one could call it that way, or the other way round depending whose point of view it is.
Bluedoll
c'tair wrote:
His point was that since this a Faith forum with special rules, bringing the Christian God into a thread about LaVeyan Satanism is like bringing Atheism into a Christian God thread.


I guess his = Ankhanu. I am so sorry to hear about his accident. His he ok. I guess his fingers got broken and he needs you to type for him? In reality, I think Ankhanu can write for himself! So you assume that is what he meant?

Like that never happens - atheists in a Christian God thread! Wait, thought I read somewhere anyone can post in threads regardless of their religious affiliation even if it is atheist.

c'tair wrote:
If the latter happened, you'd be screaming for moderators to purge the rule-breakers, but here you are doing it yourself.


How do you know this? You can read my mind? That is not true. In fact I have a tendency to deal with things myself rather than seek moderators. Is it necessary now. No, I do not think so and I am not the one bringing moderation up. You are!



c'tair wrote:
Satanism uses Christian symbolism, it never uses any faith. It actually parodies the Christian faith to make it's own points which aren't even always contrary to the Christian faith

So, before you continue to derail this thread by bringing in your God in and by launching childish ad hominem attacks against LaVey, think if you'd like a hardcore Atheist to go into your thread and start refuting all your points and calling God a grumpy old murderer. If I remember correctly, the Faith forum was created specifically to avoid these problems.




Actually you are right LaVey does need to be derailed. If he wanted all that attention why did he not write a book based solely on his own merit instead of drawing attention to himself on the back of religion. Why? Because it is a religion! So therefore any discussion about satanism takes on a whole new meaning that is religious. As for bringing God into anything, I can clearly do that in religious subjects without fear of retaliation. I am allowed. Look it up the un constitution if you are confused!




c'tair wrote:
Also, I would like to point out your behaviour. If you believe that God created Man, thus Anton LaVey is also a creation of God, is he not? If you are calling him you are also saying that God's work isn't good enough. Where is this Christian love? Oh yeah, forgot, you can hate and slander non-believers all you want.




If you want to practice Christian love, I wish you well, but do not try pulling that one on me! Go backseat someone else! If LaVel has a problem about what I said about him, let him come on the forum and state it, or is he pushing up daisies?


foumy6 wrote:
Now this thread is for people to post TRUE info that they know about satanism



Satanism is a religion.

Quote:
In The Satanic Bible, Anton LaVey describes Satan as a motivating and balancing dark force in nature. Satan is also described as being the "Black Flame", representing a person's own inner personality and desires. Satan is seen as synonymous with the nature and even, metaphorically, with certain conceptions of a supreme deity or God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism



Anyone can emulate a code of conduct however . . .

What the satanic bible is delivering is belief in a deity. The god is satan. To follow satan is to be a slave of satan.

What could be more true and more clear?

I will not! I will follow God and no one will mess with my faith anywhere, not even in this forum. I have a right to believe in what I wish and express that satan is a thief.
Ankhanu
No one has suggested that you abandon your religion for LeVayan Satanism.
c'tair
Your childish remarks and further topic derailment don't really concern me, Bluedoll. Won't waste more time on that.


Anyways, back on topic. There was a time a time when I was deeply interested in this philosophical views promoted by LaVey. I found it as appealing as one might find objectivism appealing, viewing the world as your playground and having absolute power of your life. I've found that many successful life changing strategies involve many of those "satanic" fundamentals, even reading things like psychological self help books or motivational biographies of greats like Theodore Roosevelt - things like responsibility for your own actions, taking action in this life instead of waiting for some promise of an afterlife etc.

While I don't consider myself a satanist, I'd consider many of my views to agree with what LaVey wrote in his book. I think I even have a copy of it somewhere in the back of my closet, I should give a fresh read when I have some free time.
Bluedoll
I do not recommend LaVeyan’s statanism bible as either a psychological self help book or as motivational inspire.[...]



[...]

Quote:
Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams
Spiritual enlightenment is in many writings for self help and motivational needs and are not considered pipe dreams. http://www.adherents.com/people/pr/Theodore_Roosevelt.html

Quote:
Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek
This is a book for war lords!

Quote:
Satan represents man as just another animal (sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours), who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all.
Yeah, I have known some but have no desire to be one!

Quote:
Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification
And that is a good thing? How about good acts that lead to physical, mental or emotional satisfaction? Duh!

Quote:
If a guest in your home annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy
[...]


Removed some comments that very much go against the special rules of the faith forum. -ocalhoun
Ankhanu
Aye, LeVayan Satanism is not wholly worth while, but, nor is any other religion. Christian doctrine, for example is full of atrocities, many of which have been highlighted in other threads, but the central message (even if it is often not adhered to by its followers) is one of peace and compassion. That Satanism holds some dark tenets along with its positive messages does not remove the positivity of those elements any more than the negative elements of Christianity remove its positive elements.

For the reasons outlined in your previous post, you rightly couldn't advocate the Christian Bible as a psychological self-help book nor an inspirational work. It holds just as much darkness within its covers... even more in some cases.

There is some merit in just about everything, even if its only merit is as an example of what not to be.

Truth is, many religions espouse vengeance for wrongs. Christianity is one of the few that does not (in some cases, it demands it in others... the Bible is full of such contradictions), though a few do it even better, i.e. Jains and Buddhists. The ethos of O-Sensei in Aikido is one of the best examples of living non-violently, avoiding conflict, but not being a doormat at the same time, demanding defense of self, and the defense of those who cannot defend themselves... it's one of the strongest, most practical moral codes I've encountered, and it's not even religious.

Bluedoll wrote:
Quote:
Satan represents man as just another animal (sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours), who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all.
Yeah, I have known some but have no desire to be one!


Desire has absolutely no bearing on such things though, unfortunately.
As unpleasant a thought of being "the most vicious animal" might be to most of us, our history is supportive of such claims. Humans do terrible, depraved things to one another on a daily basis. Despite our developments as "spiritual" and "intellectual", we're still monstrous. Perhaps because of our developments in these areas we are monstrous... when one elevates one's self (or group, or species, etc) above others, those that are then below them are not worth equal ethical consideration, as they are no longer seen as equal. This provides a moral basis for poor ethics. This patter is clear in history, whether it be between religious groups, sexual (men treating women poorly because they are "inferior), racism and slavery, nationalism, even something as trivial as economic systems can instill this sense of superiority/inferiority... and it almost always leads to atrocity.

The passage you quoted is actually a statement against such things. It can properly be seen in one of two ways, the end result of each being the same:
1) We are no better than animals, so we should climb off our pedestal
2) Animals are just as worthy as we are, so we should elevate them to our level.
End result: equal footing
Equal footing leads to equal rights for all living creatures, which leads to equal consideration, and the elimination of "justified" atrocity.

To my thinking, this is an amazing idea... and it is in direct opposition to the Abrahamic idea that man is above and lords over lesser beings. It's a recognition of the intrinsic value of all living things.

Of course, like anything else, people can pervert it...
Bluedoll
Actually this post is not about the study of religions in general, nor is it about the Christian doctrine but about one man’s book and religious activities. This makes me prone to frown as I read how I am accused of derailing topics, when so often topics get side tracked anyway.

In any case, I am not sure which bible you are reading Ankhanu but mine does not do that to me. It does contain truth and it does shine a positive light in a dark place and not the other way around.

Humans become monstrous because they made the choice to be so. Actually my bible tells me that man would eventually dominate the earth and certainly that has become true. Dominion can be good thing only if man learns how to manage the planet properly. I will not let myself be reasoned down to the ground as an animal. Yes animals should be respected but no, I disagree I am on the same level. We have the facility and ability to look after our home and we should accept that responsibility. Satan would like us to think contrae’
Ankhanu
Bluedoll wrote:
Actually this post is not about the study of religions in general, nor is it about the Christian doctrine but about one man’s book and religious activities. This makes me prone to frown as I read how I am accused of derailing topics, when so often topics get side tracked anyway.


My use of reference to other religions is entirely for exposition purposes, using a familiar frame of reference as an analogue for unfamiliar concepts. I was not actually discussing those other religions in any meaningful way, only using them as an explanatory tool.

In this sense, it is very relevant to the discussion... LeVay used the familiar frame of Christianity and its symbols in the construction of his philosophy. He did it differently, but the idea of "familiar frame of reference to introduce novel concepts" is a commonly used tool in all areas of literature, academia, business and most every other aspect of life where new ideas might be introduced.

Bluedoll wrote:
In any case, I am not sure which bible you are reading Ankhanu but mine does not do that to me. It does contain truth and it does shine a positive light in a dark place and not the other way around.


I'm most familiar with the King James translation. It's full of reasons to kill (often via stoning, though other methods are suggested), it's full of examples of both God commanding deaths and of God personally bringing about deaths. If you're not reading those passages, it's only because you're skipping them.

Bluedoll wrote:
Humans become monstrous because they made the choice to be so.

Yeah, that's kind of the point I was making. I was also detailing how that choice might be arrived via a certain rationalization pathway. A pathway that LeVay suggested mankind not follow. Strange that such a garbage book might contain wisdom for avoiding being monstrous.

Bluedoll wrote:
Actually my bible tells me that man would eventually dominate the earth and certainly that has become true. Dominion can be good thing only if man learns how to manage the planet properly. I will not let myself be reasoned down to the ground as an animal. Yes animals should be respected but no, I disagree I am on the same level. We have the facility and ability to look after our home and we should accept that responsibility. Satan would like us to think contrae’


I find that exceptionally egotistical and petty. It's exactly the same sort of thinking that keeps concepts like racism afloat; sure, you can respect them, but we are not the same! Why is it in any conceivable way disparaging to recognize that we are animals? What is possibly shameful in the fact that we are living beings made up of eukaryotic cells lacking cell walls, deriving nutrition from the bodies of other organisms and have a blastula stage in our embryonic development? What is so "own to that level" about being an animal? (Feel free to respond in PM rather than here, this doesn't have a whole lot to do with the topic, though it is related)

You forget that in the context of this discussion, Satan is not a being and would like absolutely nothing. Being non-existent, Satan can't really have an opinion on our actions.
On this aspect of the discussion, I'll say no more, nor acknowledge continued assertions.
deanhills
Ankhanu wrote:
I'm most familiar with the King James translation. It's full of reasons to kill (often via stoning, though other methods are suggested), it's full of examples of both God commanding deaths and of God personally bringing about deaths. If you're not reading those passages, it's only because you're skipping them.
But looks as though you are skipping some good chapters of the Bible as well. Would be great if we could progress to an age of enlightenment as far as the Bible is concerned so that we could focus on messages of love and good works in balance with fear and judgment and evil deeds. As there are plenty of Chapters to support both of these. They all seem to be realistic ingredients of human life on earth. I also don't think it is logical to interpret the Bible literally. Too much of it is hearsay, has been written centuries ago and has been translated numerous times by authors who wanted/want to keep their congregations in tow with fear and damnation messages. As far as I can see truth is in the eye of the beholder as far as the Bible is concerned and there is plenty of ammunition on both sides for those who would like to debate its contents along literal lines.
Ankhanu
deanhills wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:
I'm most familiar with the King James translation. It's full of reasons to kill (often via stoning, though other methods are suggested), it's full of examples of both God commanding deaths and of God personally bringing about deaths. If you're not reading those passages, it's only because you're skipping them.
But looks as though you are skipping some good chapters of the Bible as well. Would be great if we could progress to an age of enlightenment as far as the Bible is concerned so that we could focus on messages of love and good works in balance with fear and judgment and evil deeds. As there are plenty of Chapters to support both of these. They all seem to be realistic ingredients of human life on earth. I also don't think it is logical to interpret the Bible literally. Too much of it is hearsay, has been written centuries ago and has been translated numerous times by authors who wanted/want to keep their congregations in tow with fear and damnation messages. As far as I can see truth is in the eye of the beholder as far as the Bible is concerned and there is plenty of ammunition on both sides for those who would like to debate its contents along literal lines.


Ankhanu wrote:
... Christian doctrine, for example is full of atrocities, many of which have been highlighted in other threads, but the central message (even if it is often not adhered to by its followers) is one of peace and compassion. That Satanism holds some dark tenets along with its positive messages does not remove the positivity of those elements any more than the negative elements of Christianity remove its positive elements.

...

Truth is, many religions espouse vengeance for wrongs. Christianity is one of the few that does not (in some cases, it demands it in others... the Bible is full of such contradictions), though a few do it even better, i.e. Jains and Buddhists.

...


I would say that I have made no such assertions that the Bible (and Christianity in general) do not have positive messages or passages... in fact, what I DID say was that while the Bible DOES have a positive message, it is also fraught with some rather terrible elements. In each of the statements above I've outlines the presence of both positive and negative points.
My statements have been objective.

I'm not going to get into the ideas of literalism and allegory in the Bible, this isn't really the thread for it (except in the context of LeVayan Satanism using Christian allegory and symbol... but that's not the focus in this little chat)... it's irrelevant right now.
Bluedoll
Ankhanu wrote:
Bluedoll wrote:
Actually my bible tells me that man would eventually dominate the earth and certainly that has become true. Dominion can be good thing only if man learns how to manage the planet properly. I will not let myself be reasoned down to the ground as an animal. Yes animals should be respected but no, I disagree I am on the same level. We have the facility and ability to look after our home and we should accept that responsibility. Satan would like us to think contrae’


I find that exceptionally egotistical and petty. It's exactly the same sort of thinking that keeps concepts like racism afloat; sure, you can respect them, but we are not the same! Why is it in any conceivable way disparaging to recognize that we are animals? What is possibly shameful in the fact that we are living beings made up of eukaryotic cells lacking cell walls, deriving nutrition from the bodies of other organisms and have a blastula stage in our embryonic development? What is so "own to that level" about being an animal? (Feel free to respond in PM rather than here, this doesn't have a whole lot to do with the topic, though it is related)

You forget that in the context of this discussion, Satan is not a being and would like absolutely nothing. Being non-existent, Satan can't really have an opinion on our actions.
On this aspect of the discussion, I'll say no more, nor acknowledge continued assertions.





What Ankhanu is saying seems to me to be completely ridiculous. I will not agree that mankind is nothing more than a beast. If he wants to believe something like that I really do not care just as I do not care to PM him about the topic. Dominion is not related to any kind of thinking regarding racism. How anyone can connect the two, I feel is simply just crazy.

Mankind is human and an animal is an animal. Simple as that. So saying what I wrote is egotistical and petty is reflecting back on what Ankhanu wrote, I think.

I am very convinced that ego lies with the declaration of what the context of the topic discussion is really about - I think the op did that? If he wants a discussion with definitions clearly defined in a topic, why does he not start one himself?

It is totally ridiculous to examine a book called satanic bible interlaced with satan, which is considered to be a religion, then go on to declare satan as non-existent. If Ankhanu or anyone else wants to consider statements to be irrelevant or as he said assertions, so be it. The context is the writers choice. This does apply to me equally as well. What I write is my choice and in the context of my writing, I will not be supporting this very grossly fraud LeVayan.
Ankhanu
Bluedoll wrote:
What Ankhanu is saying seems to me to be completely ridiculous. I will not agree that mankind is nothing more than a beast. If he wants to believe something like that I really do not care just as I do not care to PM him about the topic. Dominion is not related to any kind of thinking regarding racism. How anyone can connect the two, I feel is simply just crazy.

Mankind is human and an animal is an animal. Simple as that. So saying what I wrote is egotistical and petty is reflecting back on what Ankhanu wrote, I think.


What I am saying is that we are biological organisms. We fit within the Kingdom Animalia.
I did not say we were "nothing more than beasts", that is a subtext you dreamed up that I was correcting. We have many defining characters that make us uniquely human, but we are still animals (note I've only used the word animal, beast has certain connotations that I did not intend to convey).

Will a Venn diagram help?


I'll even toss this one in, as, though I'm not theistic, I recognize that some people believe it might look something like this:

** Please forgive the overlap of divinity into some of the other animals, I made these quick and didn't want to waste too much time... we can just pretend that those are animals we like, like pets.

The thinking is, as I posted previously, that believing one's self to be elevated above others leads to regarding said others as lesser. This leads to lower standing in ethical and moral values, which leads to lesser consideration.
This can be seen in people throughout history, including today, whether it be towards other people, or all the other organisms on the planet... Why is it ok to outright destroy a spider for simply existing within one's home, but it's a crime to kick a person in the shin? Both should be ethically poor actions, but dominion suggests otherwise.
The "lesser" animals are to do with as we please, because they are lesser, and "for" us. They have no value, except as they relate to us. You or I are not intrinsically worth more than... a gazelle.

As a person who revels in the beauty of life, I find the idea abhorrent... and anyone who thinks they are morally just ought to as well, really.

I do agree with you, however, that we need to be responsible for the other organisms. Those "uniquely human" aspects that I mentioned earlier mean that we have great potential to do harm... as has been clearly demonstrated in our behaviour. We need to be responsible that we don't trample over all the other organisms that might stand in our path, as they have as much intrinsic worth as any human does, and as much a right to life as we do. The first step to properly recognizing something's ethical rights is to recognize that it is not intrinsically "lesser".

Bluedoll wrote:
I am very convinced that ego lies with the declaration of what the context of the topic discussion is really about - I think the op did that? If he wants a discussion with definitions clearly defined in a topic, why does he not start one himself?


You are correct, the quality of the OP is pretty darn low... (stopped myself from a personal jab here, I'll try not to let that happen) but, he does make strong inferences as to what he means:
foumy6 wrote:
I know what most people think about satanism, that they are demon loving people who pray to satan. Just that small statement is very incorrect. In truth satanism is just about living life to the fullest and diving into all of mans wants and lusts. To learn more read the satanic bible. Now this thread is for people to post TRUE info that they know about satanism Smile enjoy!


First, he states that demon worship is incorrect.
Second, he talks about self-empowerment (and hedonism, but I'll ignore that for now)
Third, he makes reference to the Satanic Bible
These three points point us strongly in the direction of LeVayan Satanism, rather than an actual theistic form of Satanism (ie. no demon worship).

If he's asking us to discuss what we know about this form of Satanism, I think, according to the Forum rules, we're somewhat constrained to that topic. Whether we agree with the context or not is really irrelevant, the context is set by the OP in the Faith Forum, and all those that reply must work within that frame. Painful sometimes, but, thems the rules.

Bluedoll wrote:
It is totally ridiculous to examine a book called satanic bible interlaced with satan, which is considered to be a religion, then go on to declare satan as non-existent.


Only if you do not understand the context of how the book was written and it's intent... which at this point in the discussion seems like an absolutely willful effort.

Bluedoll wrote:
What I write is my choice and in the context of my writing, I will not be supporting this very grossly fraud LeVayan.


Again, no one has asked you to support LeVay's works, philosophy or anything of the like. Discussing the topic does not necessarily require supporting it. One can quite easily discuss topics one does not support or subscribe to. For example, I am not a Satanist, LeVayan or otherwise, but I can discuss the topic.

A well known debating skill or method is to take up the position to which you are opposed and defend it. Through this exercise one is forced to actually learn about what they oppose. At the end of the day, you need not believe or support that which you learned about, but you will have been enriched by the experience. It's a pretty handy trick.

It should be noted that I am also not suggesting that you utilize this exercise/method/skill, though I am pointing out that it exists, and that it has merits. Please don't try to believe that I'm telling you how you should post or talk about this topic when I am not. I am, however, suggesting maintaining the intended content of the OP... as per Faith Forum guidelines. You'll likely ignore me and scream about intended censorship or make much bigger leaps and suggest that I intend that you denounce your beliefs and become a Satanist, but, there's nothing I can do about that; it's entirely your choice.
Bikerman
Bluedoll wrote:
In any case, I am not sure which bible you are reading Ankhanu but mine does not do that to me. It does contain truth and it does shine a positive light in a dark place and not the other way around.
LOL...only if you read it extremely selectively and ignore about 60% of it.
Quote:
Humans become monstrous because they made the choice to be so.
Nope - they became 'bestial' because God made them so when they stole an apple from his tree.
Crime - steal an apple
Punishment - condemn the thief and their offspring to pain, death and suffering.
This is your 'loving' God - the torturer, the sadist and the egotistical child.
Quote:
Actually my bible tells me that man would eventually dominate the earth and certainly that has become true.
Well you must have a different bible to the rest of us, because that is NOT contained in any of my bibles. The only mention of man 'dominating' the earth is in genesis - where 'man' is given dominion over the animals. The early Christians were pretty much all catastrophists - they believed the end of the world was very close - within their lifetimes - and therefore they wouldn't have believed that mankind would increase in power and dominion.
Quote:

Dominion can be good thing only if man learns how to manage the planet properly. I will not let myself be reasoned down to the ground as an animal. Yes animals should be respected but no, I disagree I am on the same level.
Who said you were?
You ARE an animal - that is simply a biological fact. You would like to believe otherwise, but that is simple ignorance fuelled by zealotry. The fact that you are n animal does not mean you have to behave in a bestial manner, but it does mean that you have emotions and thoughts that are essentially derived from that bestiality. That is so obvious I'm sure it must be apparent to even a creationist like you. Ever looked into the eyes of a Gorilla? It is quite something - the intelligence is apparent, and the relationship is completely obvious - to the Gorilla as well, methinks.
Quote:
We have the facility and ability to look after our home and we should accept that responsibility. Satan would like us to think contrae’
Against what? Tell that to the Hatians and the Japanese. When God decides to throw a tantrum and kill a few thousand people then we have little ability to look after any home. Neither would you be capable of defending any home against other animals if it was not for the fact that you have plenty of other people around to help you. In any dispute between you and a similar sized animal, it would be the animal on the bed and YOU sleeping outside.
Bluedoll
Quote:
Aside from this one post, I will not be posting any further into this topic because of moderation censorship. It seems that comments on publications, particularly by the author LeVay is prohibited in this forum!
Bikerman
What censorship? I didn't even suggest a hint of a possibility that I might consider moderating anything. I have no reason, nor wish, to 'censor' anything in this thread and I've never suggested otherwise.

Comments on publications are fine - no matter who by - as long as the comments do not represent plagiarism or willfull misrepresentation - I can't think of any other reason a moderator would get involved, and I didn't know one had....
ocalhoun
Bikerman wrote:
What censorship? I didn't even suggest a hint of a possibility that I might consider moderating anything. I have no reason, nor wish, to 'censor' anything in this thread and I've never suggested otherwise.

Comments on publications are fine - no matter who by - as long as the comments do not represent plagiarism or willfull misrepresentation - I can't think of any other reason a moderator would get involved, and I didn't know one had....

Well, actually, I kind of did.

Anybody who wants an explanation can PM me, but I don't want to go into it in the thread.
Bikerman
Ahh..my misunderstanding - it is normally me in such cases Smile
No problemo - I'll exit stage left and leave that matter to you.
deanhills
ocalhoun wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
What censorship? I didn't even suggest a hint of a possibility that I might consider moderating anything. I have no reason, nor wish, to 'censor' anything in this thread and I've never suggested otherwise.

Comments on publications are fine - no matter who by - as long as the comments do not represent plagiarism or willfull misrepresentation - I can't think of any other reason a moderator would get involved, and I didn't know one had....

Well, actually, I kind of did.

Anybody who wants an explanation can PM me, but I don't want to go into it in the thread.
@Ocalhoun. If Bikerman could not see anything improper, I was similarly perplexed. I had been following the discussion myself, and could not see anything wrong, even in the remotest way. So from that point of view, it would be nice to have a public explanation, rather than a private one, so that everyone can have a clear understanding what to watch out for.
Ankhanu
Avoid comments designed to inflame, essentially.
It was censored before any of us saw it is all.
domz
domz wrote:
any form of religion is man made.


For those who reacted to my one liner, sorry for keeping it short and simple.

i did not elaborate on the reason why because it should be pretty obvious, is there any factual evidence that satan, or whatever god for whatever "religion" exists? Faith exists no doubt about it, but having faith to some kind of deity is like believing the tooth fairy exists.

Religion can be helpful to some people who need some kind of psychological or emotional reinforcement, to do good. But humankind is evolving away from that because of science, technology and new knowledge. And some religions can be a hindrance to society's progress.

So why should people practice Satanism? What good does it do for society as a whole? If you believe in Satan, then keep it to yourself. People forming a religion out of that thing's non-existence is waste of time.

Precious time is wasted on religion, why not use it to solve REAL problems, like global-warming, pollution or starvation. I wish everyone would dedicate their faith to solving problems like these. Religions claim that they help contribute to solving society's problems but is their help really effective on a large scale?

So I still stand to the belief that any form of religion is man made, g0d-damnit.
IceCreamTruck
Ankhanu wrote:
For example, saying "watch out for bones" when someone is eating some herring has meaning, but it doesn't if someone is eating lobster.


So what you are saying is watch for bones while eating Satanism. I get it! Smile

Just kidding, and I think you did a good job on covering the word "Satanism" itself. It has many meanings, and it depends on who you are as well. Yes, to a christian pastor, Satanism can be anything that isn't christianity; The word does not hold the same meaning for hindu, or buddist spiritual guru or monk. For one the hindu and buddist guys can actually say the word without spit spraying out of their mouths.

I have made this post an experiment of sorts: I have capitalized all instances of the word "Satanism" and treated all other religions as if they are not proper nouns just to see how they like it! What? -- you guys don't think it's strange that Satanism is the only religion you don't capitalize in a sentence? I'm thinking about swearing that I will continue to do this for the rest of my life cause I hate religions which really are just systems of control for the weak, and I hate Satanism for not having anyone stand up for and capitalize it in a sentence -- where's the balance. I think this comes from a large portion of Satanists in this country really could be said to be anti-christian which has given satanism a lot of converts to their faith, but very little real drive. I truly believe it is about everyone doing their own thing, because Satanists rarely come together on anything. If only other religions could follow their non-invasive, seen and not heard, mentality, then the world would be a better place.

Anyone who wants to argue with me can step up one at a time and be cut in half by my sword I call the sinner slayer, and it's 8 feet long!!! I am, of course, referring to the large swords they carried into battle during the crusades, and anyone who argues a religious point to try and make someone believe is really just saying we should go back to the dark-ages and forget this whole science thing that we have working for us now. Yes, religion is stupidity and weakness... and I challenge anyone to come up with proof that religion has the strongest minds of our generation, because you will find next to none. Intelligence has been leading us away from religion, and there is plenty of proof all the time coming from the science world that proves where our race's good and intelligent minds are and what they concern themselves with.

All religion is going extinct, however, so I don't have much to fear in the long run. The numbers don't lie, and churches are going the way of the dinosaur. Lookout! and mark these words too: Religions need something like war to even stay in our perception as a race because we are forgetting them and letting them go because they are a bad idea, and thank god! Smile Don't be surprised if they try to create another epic war before they are gone completely. Further proof that religions and people in general don't care about you or me.
Ankhanu
IceCreamTruck wrote:
I have made this post an experiment of sorts: I have capitalized all instances of the word "Satanism" and treated all other religions as if they are not proper nouns just to see how they like it! What? -- you guys don't think it's strange that Satanism is the only religion you don't capitalize in a sentence?


Almost everyone in this thread has been capitalizing "Satanism", even Bluedoll (though she eventually stopped). There are very few examples of it not being capitalized... This kinda seems like trolling.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Anyone who wants to argue with me can step up one at a time and be cut in half by my sword I call the sinner slayer, and it's 8 feet long!!! I am, of course, referring to the large swords they carried into battle during the crusades


Which Crusades are you talking about? What 8' swords?

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Don't be surprised if they try to create another epic war before they are gone completely. Further proof that religions and people in general don't care about you or me.


This is known as speculation, not proof.

domz wrote:
So why should people practice Satanism? What good does it do for society as a whole? If you believe in Satan, then keep it to yourself. People forming a religion out of that thing's non-existence is waste of time.
...
So I still stand to the belief that any form of religion is man made, g0d-damnit.


I'm guessing you haven't actually read the thread, nor looked into what Satanism (as discussed in the thread) actually is?
IceCreamTruck
Ankhanu wrote:
IceCreamTruck wrote:
Don't be surprised if they try to create another epic war before they are gone completely. Further proof that religions and people in general don't care about you or me.


This is known as speculation, not proof.


Tense: past, present, or future must be considered!!! Read my statement again. What I'm basically saying is that any large scale war, in which religion is the focal point, is proof that religions don't care about you or me. I did not punctuate correctly or something, because my statement to me obviously implies future tense so the "proof" I'm talking about doesn't exist in our time space. Example: there is no religious war enveloping the world at this time, and speculation assumes there is proof here and now but doesn't know where it is exactly.

Generally people in this country do not capitalize Satanism. I was literally told in school that you don't have to because it's not a formal religion without any kind of political representation in this country. It has followers but no one is lobbying satanism, in other words. I'm only stating what I've observed... why are you splitting hairs with me? Are you religious?

Yes, in the crusades into the holy land by some of those from England/France carried swords that were up to 8 feet long. They served only one purpose to cut people in half that did not believe in the christian god. I'm surprised you didn't know this since you know everything else so certainly.

If everyone picks up arms to go fight a religious war I wouldn't need any other proof that they don't care about me or you. You can speculate all you want at that point and look for proof they don't care, but I require nothing further then the religions of the world taking up arms to prove that point beyond a shadow of a doubt.

If I came across two guys fighting each other over religion I'm more likely to kill both of them than I am to join one of them in beating up the other person. It is my purpose, I guess, to give them a common enemy and maintain being considered universally evil by many religions -- just the way I like it. Well I'm universally evil to most religions except Satanism, Hinduism, and probably a handful of more religions that just can't be shaken because they are systems of belief based on who we are -- based on our nature. It's hard to shake their theology when it's so natural and all inclusive, but with a little work and a little hope I'll be evil to them one day as well!

I greet christians using the proper jewish greetings, bless muslims using the holy cross, and I'm generally VERY disrespectful of anything religious. All the hoodoo voodoo makes me uncomfortable, so I do things to make myself comfortable again even at their expense. If they are stupid enough to practice or try and convert me then I break them, I make them feel dirty, and I make them see things the way I see it. Consequently that's exactly what they were trying to do to me, and that makes me resentful, so I turn the tables on them now.

Just the other day I pointed out to a couple morons (I mean mormons: typo excellence) that their faith is racist after they knocked on my door, to which they replied "no it isn't." Then I showed them how their bible teaches that black people are the offspring of demons, and they left without word shortly after I was finished and I bid them adu with a hearty "Happy Hanukkah!" in response to their blessings even though I know it's the wrong time of year. Also, if they were jewish they would have gotten some other salutation like "he is risen... he is risen indeed!". Whatever it takes to make their skin crawl. I find shouting "praise allah" in this country works quite well to offend religious people, and I have no idea why draw the line there, cause it's just as bad in english. god (proper noun and it's the beginning of a sentence) in any other language apparently does not smell as sweet as a rose! Personally I find it offensive in any language.

The morons did have a look on their face like they were going to have to do some figuring things out before the day was over, and I'm satisfied that they either are going to leave the faith or become some torch carrying racists for real. I just got rid of what I see to be the problem: they had no idea their faith was racist, and thus were, to me, obviously conflicted. We know how to deal with racists, but I don't think we're quite up for dealing with racists who don't know they're racists.

Proof, not speculation, is in the fact that the mormons are still here when -- yes, their faith is racist. The only thing worse than giving them political refuge is electing them to public office. If one person doesn't vote for a mormon to get office because of this message then GREAT!
Ankhanu
IceCreamTruck wrote:
Tense: past, present, or future must be considered!!! Read my statement again. What I'm basically saying is that any large scale war, in which religion is the focal point, is proof that religions don't care about you or me. I did not punctuate correctly or something, because my statement to me obviously implies future tense so the "proof" I'm talking about doesn't exist in our time space. Example: there is no religious war enveloping the world at this time, and speculation assumes there is proof here and now but doesn't know where it is exactly.


Is it proof that the religious organizations don't care about people? Or is it proof that they have worldly motivations? If anything, it's proof that people are willing to fight and die for their beliefs, whether those beliefs are well founded or not. While a religion may call for action against something, ultimately it is the people who respond to the call who are making the judgment on its validity and importance.

"the "proof" I'm talking about doesn't exist in our time space" - hence it is speculation. To speculate means to form an opinion without the benefit of actual, solid evidence. Given that there is no evidence, what you are doing is guessing, or, if you will, speculating.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Generally people in this country do not capitalize Satanism. I was literally told in school that you don't have to because it's not a formal religion without any kind of political representation in this country. It has followers but no one is lobbying satanism, in other words. I'm only stating what I've observed... why are you splitting hairs with me?


See, I was talking about this thread... which it seemed you were as well, since you didn't give your national context. Oddly, I don't live in your country, and, again, oddly, Satanism wasn't talked about in my schools... nor should it be, really. I was "splitting hairs" because you did not provide the extra-forum context you were writing with, and, as a result, seemed to be offering up an incorrect assessment of the discussion we were having. By and large, most of the people posting here have been pretty reasonable about the topic of Satanism.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Are you religious?

Not in the least... not sure what that has to do with things, though.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Yes, in the crusades some of those from England/France carried swords that were up to 8 feet long. They served only one purpose to cut people in half that did not believe in the christian god. I'm surprised you didn't know this since you know everything else so certainly.

These large, 2-handed swords didn't really come into use until the 14th century… unfortunately the last of the Crusades was in the 13th century. Even so, an 8' sword would have been exceptionally long, with most of these sorts of swords topping out before hitting 70".

I will admit that my interest in European swords kinda waned off in about 2003-ish, and I haven't really followed it since... If I'm mistaken on my timelines, feel free to give me some good reference points.

Also, don't forget to bring along your horse if you actually want to hit a person with one of those 8' swords Razz

[quote="IceCreamTruck"]If everyone picks up arms to go fight a religious war I wouldn't need any other proof that they don't care about me or you. You can speculate all you want at that point and look for proof they don't care, but I require nothing further then the religions of the world taking up arms to prove that point beyond a shadow of a doubt.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
If I came across two guys fighting each other over religion I'm more likely to kill both of them than I am to join one of them in beating up the other person.

Not that I'm saying you should help either of them, but… damn that's harsh… immoral.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
It is my purpose, I guess, to give them a common enemy and maintain being considered universally evil by many religions -- just the way I like it. Well I'm universally evil to most religions except Satanism, Hinduism, and probably a handful of more religions that just can't be shaken because they are systems of belief based on who we are -- based on our nature. It's hard to shake their theology when it's so natural and all inclusive, but with a little work and a little hope I'll be evil to them one day as well!


I think you might have a pretty hard time shaking the Satanic theology… seeing as it's atheistic and doesn't have one Wink
I think the only way to become evil in the eyes of Satanists is to be a weak-willed hedonist or to abandon your principles and join in with one of the other religions and joining the unthinking herd.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
I greet christians using the proper jewish greetings, bless muslims using the holy cross, and I'm generally VERY disrespectful of anything religious. All the hoodoo voodoo makes me uncomfortable, so I do things to make myself comfortable again even at their expense. If they are stupid enough to practice or try and convert me then I break them, I make them feel dirty, and I make them see things the way I see it. Consequently that's exactly what they were trying to do to me, and that makes me resentful, so I turn the tables on them now.

Just the other day I pointed out to a couple morons (I mean mormons: typo excellence) that their faith is racist after they knocked on my door, to which they replied "no it isn't." Then I showed them how their bible teaches that black people are the offspring of demons, and they left without word shortly after I was finished and I bid them adu with a hearty "Happy Hanukkah!" in response to their blessings even though I know it's the wrong time of year.

They did have a look on their face like they were going to have to do some figuring things out before the day was over, and I'm satisfied that they either are going to leave the faith or become some torch carrying racists for real. I just got rid of what I see to be the problem: they had no idea their faith was racist, and thus were, to me, obviously conflicted. We know how to deal with racists, but I don't think we're quite up for dealing with racists who don't know they're racists.

Proof, not speculation, is in the fact that the mormons are still here when -- yes, their faith is racist. The only thing worse than giving them political refuge is electing them to public office. If one person doesn't vote for a mormon to get office because of this message then GREAT!


I applaud bringing the inconsistencies within a person's belief to bear, really, I do… but I do disagree with some of your methods Razz

If you're not religious, why use their greetings at all, even if it is intentionally ignorant? Why not simply adopt a more secular vernacular? It seems vulgar and childish to chase after the religious people, threatening to put worms in their hair because you disagree with their world-view. Maybe I'm short sighted, but I prefer the idea of rising above name calling and silly jabs. Sure, show them they're wrong… but who is ever going to listen when you start tossing (perceived) insults right out of the gate? It's a surefire way to make sure that they never hear the message of what you have to say and only hear the words you choose. Being inflammatory usually only strengthens the opposition's resolve.
Mind, if that's what you're after, so that you can feel smug superiority, more power to ya… just don't think you're having any positive effect on the world or the acceptance of reason and secularity. The opposite is more likely to be true.
Having a strong message is important… having an overbearing presentation tends to eclipse the message, however, as it becomes the focus rather than the actual content. It's a tricky balance, but, from my stand point, based on the data you've given me, you stand a long distance from the fulcrum, well into "dismissal based on presentation" territory.

Leaving those Mormons considering the scope of their professed beliefs; great… everyone should understand what they believe and why they believe it. They may even reconsider their belief… that is, of course, if the rest of what you said didn't just cause them to dismiss the message you were trying to convey.
I wouldn't say that Mormons being around is proof that their religion, or that they as members of said religion, don't care about people, or that they're racist… it's more likely proof that many Mormons are ignorant of the racist teachings of their religion. Even if they know that it's there, people, religious or otherwise, do a lot of picking and choosing as to which elements of their belief systems are to be taken as truth, and which bits are "just that other stuff". I've never met a single person that believes 100% of what their religion professes… and I have some devout Southern Baptists and Methodists in my extended family Razz
IceCreamTruck
foumy6 wrote:
I know what most people think about satanism, that they are demon loving people who pray to satan. Just that small statement is very incorrect. In truth satanism is just about living life to the fullest and diving into all of mans wants and lusts. To learn more read the satanic bible. Now this thread is for people to post TRUE info that they know about satanism Smile enjoy!


After a few of the recent posts, including my own, I thought it prudent to read the original posters point of view again for clarity, and I'm so glad I did because I've had a revelation! Smile

The statement makes a lot of sense if foumy6 is a liberal Satanist! Smile Ankhanu and myself are more of a conservative Satanist! lmao ... you know it's those left winger demons that really give the right wing, lost soul movement a bad name! Smile
deanhills
I dunno. I don't feel comfortable identifying with satan at all. Even when it has been dished up intellectually as something that is quite alright and perhaps even superior to what we think it is. For me it represents a form of darkness.
IceCreamTruck
deanhills wrote:
I dunno. I don't feel comfortable identifying with satan at all. Even when it has been dished up intellectually as something that is quite alright and perhaps even superior to what we think it is. For me it represents a form of darkness.


All old ideas meant to confuse you. They don't want the truth as much as they wish they were right, and the lies on lies on lies are hard to tell a part.

Unfortunately there is no automatic recourse against wrong doers in this world like so many of us have been told. I think simply not being considerate of other people with your actions is a horrible crime that goes unpunished all the time, and day after day tons of people are inconvenienced by jerks who think about nothing but themselves. There is no Karma, there is no Sin, and there is no Hell. All of the above are human ideas meant to scare you off your game, so they can think more about how to get your money while you are pondering right and wrong. To them the only right is getting your money, and the only wrong is not trying.

Thinking evil is dark, foreboding, or paying attention to the other hoodoo voodoo religious idea implants is the disadvantage rich people have over you. While you're thinking about a perception of wrong doing they are, by law, figuring out more and more ways to take your money. Stop worrying about perception of bad, only make sure you are not committing any crimes, and continue to work on ways to make money. This will make you rich too, and then we can work toegether to change the way things are!
deanhills
IceCreamTruck wrote:
Thinking evil is dark, foreboding, or paying attention to the other hoodoo voodoo religious idea implants is the disadvantage rich people have over you. While you're thinking about a perception of wrong doing they are, by law, figuring out more and more ways to take your money. Stop worrying about perception of bad, only make sure you are not committing any crimes, and continue to work on ways to make money. This will make you rich too, and then we can work toegether to change the way things are!
But here's the thing, evil is part of our lives. Whether we want it to be or not. There can't be good without evil, as if there were no evil, then there won't be good. I'm not looking for evil, or worrying about it. I just try my best to stay on a good path as much as I can.
IceCreamTruck
deanhills wrote:
IceCreamTruck wrote:
Thinking evil is dark, foreboding, or paying attention to the other hoodoo voodoo religious idea implants is the disadvantage rich people have over you. While you're thinking about a perception of wrong doing they are, by law, figuring out more and more ways to take your money. Stop worrying about perception of bad, only make sure you are not committing any crimes, and continue to work on ways to make money. This will make you rich too, and then we can work toegether to change the way things are!
But here's the thing, evil is part of our lives. Whether we want it to be or not. There can't be good without evil, as if there were no evil, then there won't be good. I'm not looking for evil, or worrying about it. I just try my best to stay on a good path as much as I can.


Would you believe the need for good and evil is also a human idea only. By any standard with which to measure nature is brutal and unforgiving. The weak are killed, the strong survive, and yet there is nothing wrong or sinful about this.

I assure you that establishing good and evil is a system of control. Who determines what's good and what's evil -- religious leaders? We have no proof that anything is right and justifies reward, or that anything is wrong and justifies punishment. Wrap your mind around right and wrong being something your parents told us and it's not something that we got from somewhere else such as divinely inspired (that's just the most fancy way yet for saying "written by a human"). Morality is based on SOME of these stolen ideas from many religion, and legally we outline behaviors that generate unrest or the want for revenge in another person as actions that must be stopped, but next to no real morality is enforced by the judicial system.

Basic morality fits with what most religions teach as far as right and wrong, and morality goes, but it's still an idea and rich people by pass basic morality all the time without a care to gain advantage in situations over people who otherwise consider these things. They turn you against yourself in this manor, and they learn to sense this as a WEAKNESS in you.

Actions have consequences, but some things we think of as horrible monstrosities like murder, pedophilia, kid-napping, theft, slander have NO real world consequences. Billions of people have been murdered on this earth and their killers lived to ripe old ages, children have been neglected and starved or something worse like abused or killed, and once again there are no real world consequences for these actions.

I don't care how developed your guilty conscience is, or how strongly any idea of right and wrong, and even the need to separate things as such, is a learned behavior. Unteach your mind to split things into evil and good. Start thinking of everything is fair if you consider the universe as a whole. It's a particle board of truth, and it's strength is that some of it's parts go directly against other parts within the whole. If you line up all the parts to good, then the structure is weak, and the same if you make all the parts bad. Simply it's all wood pulp facing different directions, and there is no right and wrong as you were taught. See the forest, not the trees.

Anything that happens is also not right or wrong -- it's history. It's perfectly ok to form opinions about different courses of action, and even to maintain "right and wrong" ideals in your mind, but understand they are an idea and have no mechanical, biological, or chemical bond to reality.

Telling people they are wrong/sinful is just a way to get them to keep coming back to you for more information because most people really are playing the "I want to impress people" game, and they won't take hearing that they fall short of the glory of god very well at all, in fact, it becomes something they want to change about themselves. The action of going to church becomes like self preservation, because you have to do something about this "wrong" or "unholy" idea they shared with you that you apparently seem to be afflicted with. Before that you didn't split ideas into right and wrong, but instead split them into like and don't like, and this wasn't wrong at all. Before you were given the idea you are a sinner NONE of your actions was wrong... it was just a series of I would like to do that, and I wouldn't like to do that, and nothing you did was "wrong" or if you did something and didn't like it then you just didn't do it any more. You didn't scold yourself for doing something wrong... you were too busy thinking about the next thing you would like to do.

Feelings that you are doing wrong or poorly is really just depression, and this is all religion really causes in people these days. You got confused on this whole right and wrong thing your parents told you and you just need to realize that what happens is what happens, and the universe is unfolding as it should: right or wrong, like or unlike, pleasure or distaste.

You cannot have good without evil, nor evil without good is further proof it's just an idea. It's a yin/yang idea, but no more physical than any other idea. Almost nothing can be lumped into those groups with absolute certainty. Stealing isn't always wrong if you steal from a thief and give the items back to their owners (it's still stealing), Murder isn't always wrong if you murder a killer or someone who harms children (it's still murder), so I'm glad there isn't such a thing as the world lashing out at people to correct these "wrongs."

I'm not saying ignore our countries laws because there is no right and wrong. There are behaviors that we have collectively decided that we doing want people doing because it makes life harder than it should be in that we don't like to face loss when someone steals or murders if we don't have to. Even if you commit a horrible crime and you serve your time, then when you are released there is no "bad person" black cloud following you around. Society only wants to prevent you from doing certain things, and doesn't really label them good, bad, or life altering.

Saying someone is going to hell or even will have a bad reputation for doing "wrong" isn't even correct. We all die and return to dust... there is no proof otherwise, and frankly I'm tired of hearing alternatives presented without evidence. Since the same thing happens to each of our bodies then death isn't right or wrong it's also just what happened. In the same way life isn't wrong or right as it's just happening.

The only thing consistently happening is people feeding each other ideas in order to gain advantage over you. This is a far more likely birth place of the idea for right and wrong, rather than it's basis in the physical world claimed by religious fanatics. It started when group A did something that group B didn't like or it inconvenienced them. Group B shouts: "Don't do that". Group A responds: "Why?". Group B says: "Because we don't like it (the original construct)". Group A responds: "So!" Group B knows what they want is not appealing to group A, so they say: "It's wrong!" and group A thinks to themselves that group B has found out something that they don't know about the world, so group A approaches group b with diplomacy to gain this knowledge, but it's all a scam. The very idea of right and wrong is based on the notion that we don't know everything about our universe, so people created simple labels for things they liked and things they disliked, and I'll give you one guess at what they called things they don't like.

Right and wrong has always been determined by man, and unfortunately mostly religious leaders picked up this trick too. What they are really going for is that feeling it generates in you that they know something that you need to go, so you pick your tribe up and go to their camp, but in doing so you make them rich, and while thus occupied you are accomplishing NOTHING. Which is exactly what they want you to do instead of doing something they don't like, and consider wrong. It also tricks you into being interested in their idea of right, and it provides them opportunity to tell you their idea of what is right.

It's never too late to start believing in yourself, and stop going to them and asking them what is truth, and forgetting to focus on what you like and don't like. Start with this thought... if there is a right and wrong to the universe, then you can find it on your own and you require no human assistance. If you are saying you require some religious text to keep track of the truth then I say believe in your God all the time, or not at all, because you are limiting God to requiring a text to teach you. Meditation is a much better way of freeing yourself for a religious experience, and I feel it doesn't limit God to having to use a book to teach me.

Remember: open minds are good, and closed narrow minds are bad! Smile I really am just kidding with this statement as I don't believe in right or wrong, but I can't imagine going through life without a mind that is constantly opening and expanding itself in new ways.

I leave you with this:

If you mean to do the right thing, and you do it right wrong, then wrong was right.

If you mean to do the wrong thing, and you do it wrong right, then right was wrong.
deanhills
IceCreamTruck wrote:
Would you believe the need for good and evil is also a human idea only. By any standard with which to measure nature is brutal and unforgiving. The weak are killed, the strong survive, and yet there is nothing wrong or sinful about this.
Totally.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
I assure you that establishing good and evil is a system of control. Who determines what's good and what's evil -- religious leaders? We have no proof that anything is right and justifies reward, or that anything is wrong and justifies punishment. Wrap your mind around right and wrong being something your parents told us and it's not something that we got from somewhere else such as divinely inspired (that's just the most fancy way yet for saying "written by a human"). Morality is based on SOME of these stolen ideas from many religion, and legally we outline behaviors that generate unrest or the want for revenge in another person as actions that must be stopped, but next to no real morality is enforced by the judicial system.
I don't think that "good" and "bad" only come via teaching. I think there is something intrinsically good in everyone, perhaps something divine that makes us feel something if/when we hurt someone else. It is the same with experiencing beauty. There is this natural chill when we hear or see something of immense beauty, and this natural chill of revulsion when we see or experience something really very ugly or evil. But I agree with you. Some people use it to control others, particularly in religion. In the form of judging others. I've never had a tolerance for being judged, although now and then I find myself doing exactly that. Maybe most of us do that, i.e. it usually starts when we compare ourselves with society's norms, or with other people.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Basic morality fits with what most religions teach as far as right and wrong, and morality goes, but it's still an idea and rich people by pass basic morality all the time without a care to gain advantage in situations over people who otherwise consider these things. They turn you against yourself in this manor, and they learn to sense this as a WEAKNESS in you.
Agreed that people use morality as some form of control as well, but surely there is a point where we are supposed to recognize this and start thinking for ourselves, i.e. take responsibility for our own morality. Again, like with good and evil, I think we all have a natural feel for morality deep inside ourselves, the part that makes us human and want to care for others.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Actions have consequences, but some things we think of as horrible monstrosities like murder, pedophilia, kid-napping, theft, slander have NO real world consequences. Billions of people have been murdered on this earth and their killers lived to ripe old ages, children have been neglected and starved or something worse like abused or killed, and once again there are no real world consequences for these actions.
Again agreed. Not all people who murder are bad people. They committed a murderous act perhaps in the heat of the moment. I agree that they need to be penalized for what they did, but I don't agree that all people who are on death row are necessarily bad people. I do believe however that there are people who are really bad and have no regard whatsoever for the lives of others. How they get to be like that is a mystery to me. Psychologists and psychiatrists like to explain it in terms of inherited behaviour or a bad set of life experiences. I agree with some of that, but how do you explain people who are psychopaths and who were raised by great parents?

IceCreamTruck wrote:
I don't care how developed your guilty conscience is, or how strongly any idea of right and wrong, and even the need to separate things as such, is a learned behavior. Unteach your mind to split things into evil and good. Start thinking of everything is fair if you consider the universe as a whole. It's a particle board of truth, and it's strength is that some of it's parts go directly against other parts within the whole. If you line up all the parts to good, then the structure is weak, and the same if you make all the parts bad. Simply it's all wood pulp facing different directions, and there is no right and wrong as you were taught. See the forest, not the trees.
That is in essence what I have been saying too. If we can join good and bad and see beauty in ugliness, etc. then maybe we will be making progress.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Anything that happens is also not right or wrong -- it's history. It's perfectly ok to form opinions about different courses of action, and even to maintain "right and wrong" ideals in your mind, but understand they are an idea and have no mechanical, biological, or chemical bond to reality.
Right, but society would like us to be responsible for our behaviour so that we can get along with others. So in essence we have to be accountable for our actions when we share space with others. Basically we also have to give some of our freedom away in order to survive in society in the "public interest". We have to go to school, get an education, etc.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Telling people they are wrong/sinful is just a way to get them to keep coming back to you for more information because most people really are playing the "I want to impress people" game, and they won't take hearing that they fall short of the glory of god very well at all, in fact, it becomes something they want to change about themselves. The action of going to church becomes like self preservation, because you have to do something about this "wrong" or "unholy" idea they shared with you that you apparently seem to be afflicted with. Before that you didn't split ideas into right and wrong, but instead split them into like and don't like, and this wasn't wrong at all. Before you were given the idea you are a sinner NONE of your actions was wrong... it was just a series of I would like to do that, and I wouldn't like to do that, and nothing you did was "wrong" or if you did something and didn't like it then you just didn't do it any more. You didn't scold yourself for doing something wrong... you were too busy thinking about the next thing you would like to do.
I don't think telling people about right or wrong is limited to religion or the church. We all have an inherent feeling of right and wrong. So if we are pointing to someone else's right or wrong, it's almost like a projection of our own sense of right and wrong. Again, I think within all of us there is a divine place where we know about right and wrong. And I again agree with you. If people keep on pointing at our darker sides, then it will become a self-fulfilling prophesy. If they focus on our lighter side, then that will become a self-fulfilling prophesy as well.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Feelings that you are doing wrong or poorly is really just depression, and this is all religion really causes in people these days. You got confused on this whole right and wrong thing your parents told you and you just need to realize that what happens is what happens, and the universe is unfolding as it should: right or wrong, like or unlike, pleasure or distaste.
I don't believe this is unique to religion. If one is doing poorly, it is usually when one's behaviour is held to a certain standard that is set by society. That comparison can come from ourselves, and can be a learned behaviour. There are people who are also incredibly hard on themselves, and not necessarily because they had a tough upbringing. They just drive themselves very hard, and are also as a consequence more difficult to understand and to get along with. They also seem to be the people who project their own self-inflicted inadequacies on others.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
FYou cannot have good without evil, nor evil without good is further proof it's just an idea. It's a yin/yang idea, but no more physical than any other idea. Almost nothing can be lumped into those groups with absolute certainty. Stealing isn't always wrong if you steal from a thief and give the items back to their owners (it's still stealing), Murder isn't always wrong if you murder a killer or someone who harms children (it's still murder), so I'm glad there isn't such a thing as the world lashing out at people to correct these "wrongs."
I don't completely agree with you. Good and evil do exist. I see them however as the lighter and darker sides of ourselves. They don't exist separately from ourselves.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
I'm not saying ignore our countries laws because there is no right and wrong. There are behaviors that we have collectively decided that we doing want people doing because it makes life harder than it should be in that we don't like to face loss when someone steals or murders if we don't have to. Even if you commit a horrible crime and you serve your time, then when you are released there is no "bad person" black cloud following you around. Society only wants to prevent you from doing certain things, and doesn't really label them good, bad, or life altering.
Agreed. But society is of course not always perfect in their judging of the behaviours of others. Quite often people are being incarcerated in error, or even sentenced to death in error.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Saying someone is going to hell or even will have a bad reputation for doing "wrong" isn't even correct. We all die and return to dust... there is no proof otherwise, and frankly I'm tired of hearing alternatives presented without evidence. Since the same thing happens to each of our bodies then death isn't right or wrong it's also just what happened. In the same way life isn't wrong or right as it's just happening.
Agreed. Hell is not a separate place that we go to once we have died. Our lives can be hell or heaven on earth. I don't care if you are tired about not being provided with evidence as there is a good chance that what you see is not necessarily what you get in life or death. I don't know what happens when I die, but I do believe there is something divine in me that will pass on.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
The only thing consistently happening is people feeding each other ideas in order to gain advantage over you. This is a far more likely birth place of the idea for right and wrong, rather than it's basis in the physical world claimed by religious fanatics. It started when group A did something that group B didn't like or it inconvenienced them. Group B shouts: "Don't do that". Group A responds: "Why?". Group B says: "Because we don't like it (the original construct)". Group A responds: "So!" Group B knows what they want is not appealing to group A, so they say: "It's wrong!" and group A thinks to themselves that group B has found out something that they don't know about the world, so group A approaches group b with diplomacy to gain this knowledge, but it's all a scam. The very idea of right and wrong is based on the notion that we don't know everything about our universe, so people created simple labels for things they liked and things they disliked, and I'll give you one guess at what they called things they don't like.
That's a bit simplistic, don't you think? The ideas about right and wrong, good and bad have kept philosophers busy for centuries. I agree that some people are using it to control others. But again, it's up to those people to take responsibility for their actions at some point in time. We are only victims if we give other people the power to control us.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Right and wrong has always been determined by man, and unfortunately mostly religious leaders picked up this trick too. What they are really going for is that feeling it generates in you that they know something that you need to go, so you pick your tribe up and go to their camp, but in doing so you make them rich, and while thus occupied you are accomplishing NOTHING. Which is exactly what they want you to do instead of doing something they don't like, and consider wrong. It also tricks you into being interested in their idea of right, and it provides them opportunity to tell you their idea of what is right.
Some of what you say is true. But more along the lines of fear. If you don't follow certain rules, then you will be going to hell, along those lines. Not all people of religion believe in that notion however.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
It's never too late to start believing in yourself, and stop going to them and asking them what is truth, and forgetting to focus on what you like and don't like. Start with this thought... if there is a right and wrong to the universe, then you can find it on your own and you require no human assistance. If you are saying you require some religious text to keep track of the truth then I say believe in your God all the time, or not at all, because you are limiting God to requiring a text to teach you. Meditation is a much better way of freeing yourself for a religious experience, and I feel it doesn't limit God to having to use a book to teach me.
I agree with you. We are perfectly able to find wrong and right in ourselves, but we probably need to bounce it off others as well in order to test it.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
Remember: open minds are good, and closed narrow minds are bad! Smile I really am just kidding with this statement as I don't believe in right or wrong, but I can't imagine going through life without a mind that is constantly opening and expanding itself in new ways.
Good for you! I like to think I have an open mind, but then at times can't help being skeptical that I can't ever really know. I'm only on earth for a little time. By the time I get wise I'd probably be ready to die. So I'm no longer thinking along the lines of open minds, but more like having a questioning mind. As long as our mind keeps questioning and searching for the truth, we're more or less OK in the open mind territory. I'd like to think that humans have infinite capabilities provided they can imagine those. What is that saying about it if you can conceive of something then it can become real. I believe in that.

IceCreamTruck wrote:
I leave you with this:

If you mean to do the right thing, and you do it right wrong, then wrong was right. If you mean to do the wrong thing, and you do it wrong right, then right was wrong.
I don't agree. Deep within us there is this inner voice that knows what right and wrong is. If we are connected to it, we will know when we have done something wrong. And when we have, we probably need to take responsibility for it, own up and be honest about it. Then move on. I can however see that people sometimes accuse others of wrong actions, when it is really their own wrongs that they are projecting on others. So hopefully when we get accused wrongly, we would have enough strength of character to recognize and know that we are innocent and to stand up for ourselves.
IceCreamTruck
Thanks for the response, Dean! I'm digesting everything kinda slowly today. It's good to be alive though
foumy6
okay this thread has gone a little haywire so I am going to open a new one and to please sertant members i will word it better I HAVE READ THE SATANIC BIBLE i do understand... just what ever i dont need to explain myself to you!
IceCreamTruck
foumy6 wrote:
okay this thread has gone a little haywire so I am going to open a new one and to please sertant members i will word it better I HAVE READ THE SATANIC BIBLE i do understand... just what ever i dont need to explain myself to you!


I read your OP, and I think you're getting the best you can ask for and that's discussion on satanism. If you mean this to solely be a list of satanic principals then where's the discussion come in? Also, satanism is actually fairly cut and dry and in my opinion doesn't have a whole lot of juice to debate if that is somehow what you meant.

Please forgive me if I somehow missed your point, but we discuss everything on frihost, so consider your topics polite suggestions that people may or may not rigidly stick to, and give your topics flexibility.

Did you want this thread to be nothing but satanic bible quotes? I think in any demographic, period, you are going to have trouble finding people that are A) knowledgeable about satanism (I mean there are few indoctrinated satanist) B) NOT able to list any or more than one quality that is an agreed satanic trait.

This topic is a good discussion on satanism, and you started it. Just ask people to contribute more of what you want here, and don't give up and make another topic that people may or may not participate in or really just gives them something else to hijack away from your ideal.

Babysit your topics, and remind people of your reason for posting the thread, and ask people who are off topic to get back on topic, or go create their own thread.

Tell us what you want here cause the OP doesn't really demand we stick to a certain set of guidelines, so the default, discuss everything rule of frihost was applied here.

* Maybe we should move all the forums to be sub-forums under religion and philosophy or politics, this way all the hijacking is legitimized somewhat! Smile
deanhills
IceCreamTruck wrote:
* Maybe we should move all the forums to be sub-forums under religion and philosophy or politics, this way all the hijacking is legitimized somewhat! Smile
Right, or create a main Hijacking Forum and make all the other forums sub-forums of the Hijacking Forum .... Twisted Evil

Seriously, for what it's worth foumy6 I learned plenty from this thread. Thanks for posting it and for all the other guys who participated in it. If everyone would agree on the subject of a thread, then I imagine it would really get very boring. I agree with Mao Tse Tung who said: No struggle, no progress. It's struggle that makes progress possible. Very Happy

I think this quote by Frederick Douglas says it all:
Quote:
The whole history of the progress of human liberty shows that all concessions yet made to her august claims have been born of earnest struggle. . . .If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

Source: bored.com Twisted Evil
IceCreamTruck
deanhills wrote:

I think this quote by Frederick Douglas says it all:
Quote:
The whole history of the progress of human liberty shows that all concessions yet made to her august claims have been born of earnest struggle. . . .If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters.

Source: bored.com Twisted Evil


Thanks for the quote. I'm taking a lot of wisdom from it... namely, bring on the struggle! Now I will relish it, and I'll take a side of fries too, please! Smile
busman
Bluedoll:
Quote:
What the satanic bible is delivering is belief in a deity. The god is satan. To follow satan is to be a slave of satan.
What could be more true and more clear?

I will not! I will follow God and no one will mess with my faith anywhere, not even in this forum. I have a right to believe in what I wish and express that satan is a thief.


A little hypocrisy anyone? Maybe to go with your whine?
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