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Obama Fails US Citizens in Libya





jmi256
It’s amazing that those who think that Obama and the Democrats can somehow manage something as complex as everyone’s healthcare, but they can’t seem to manage much simpler things that other countries are quite able to do. They blame the weather, but somehow other countries have been able to evacuate their citizens from Libya while dealing with the exact same weather conditions. From Obama’s Gulf Oil Spill Debacle to his failed “stimulus package” to his failed homebuyer programs, Obama and the Democrats prove time and time again that they are inept and ineffective at leading.

Quote:
U.S. Struggles To Evacuate Libya; Others Don't

U.S. efforts to evacuate hundreds of Americans from Libya are being stymied by bad weather on the coast — and by the refusal of Moammar Gadhafi's government to allow American charter planes to land there.

Some 285 people have been sitting on the Maria Dolores, a chartered ferry, since Wednesday, as the ship's crew waits for the stormy seas to calm, according to State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley says.

The ship isn't likely to leave port until Friday, according to reports.

In a Newscast spot, Michele Kelemen reports that 40 of the ferry's passengers are U.S. embassy personnel and their families, 127 of the passengers are private U.S. citizens, and the rest are from other countries. And some of the American passengers are identified as security personnel.

The weather did not stop China from using two large ferries to take 4,500 Chinese workers to safety on the island of Crete, the AP reports. And aircraft from France and Britain have been able to get citizens from those two countries out of harm's way.

In a briefing, Crowley was asked why Britain's Royal Air Force was able to land a Hercules aircraft in Libya, which then took a planeload of Britons out of the country.



"We chartered a ferry, which would have the equivalent passenger load of two or three aircraft," Crowley said.

"Had we been luckier with respect to the weather, everyone would be comfortably in Malta," he said. "That's not the case, but we will get that ship underway as soon as the weather permits."

In an interview for Thursday's All Things Considered, Helena Sheehan, a professor emeritus at Dublin City University, tells co-host Michele Norris about her ordeal getting out of Tripoli and returning to Ireland.

"The Tripoli Airport is real airport hell," Sheehan says. As she approached, she saw people camped out in the rain nearby. Getting closer, she saw "heaving masses of people trying to get in the airport."

"And then when you get in the airport, there are thousands and thousands of people in the airport," Sheehan says, and seemingly no one to ask for direction. "I felt absolutely lost," she said.

After finding a group of Irish and British citizens, Sheehan boarded a bus — which drove around on the tarmac for 45 minutes to look for their plane. Eventually, they were returned to their original gate, and told to get out.

That's when British officials stepped up, and told Sheehan and her group that they could have a ride out of Libya on a British plane.

"When it lifted off, it was fantastic," she says. "Fantastic."

Not everyone has been so lucky. At today's briefing, Crowley said that "there are roughly 5,000 people currently at the Tripoli airport."

Source = http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/02/24/134034173/u-s-evacuation-attempt-hits-snags-in-libya
truespeed
The same complaints were levelled at the British Government by our media,saying they were slow to react,compared to other countries,so if the USA were also slow in reacting,they weren't the only ones.
jmi256
truespeed wrote:
The same complaints were levelled at the British Government by our media,saying they were slow to react,compared to other countries,so if the USA were also slow in reacting,they weren't the only ones.

The British have at least gotten their people out, though, will the US still has people sitting there in a ferry (hopefully they aren't there as the article said they were supposed to get out today). One good thing, though, was that Obama at least provided security forces to protect them. Hopefully they won't be needed, though.
deanhills
I don't know, but I'm sympathetic. In Egypt there was a willingness to cooperate. Mubarak was doing everything to please those who supported him in the United States and provided them with immediate clearances to depart the country. In Libya we are dealing with a deranged fanatic, and also a Government with antiquated systems. The US is openly hostile towards Colonel Qaddafi, and there is zero cooperation. So obviously Qaddafi and his Government officials would do everything they can to make it as difficult as possible for expats to leave the country. Does seem though that Qaddafi is trying to cooperate with the Italians.

Here is a good article on expats leaving the country, and it would appear that most of them are leaving by sea:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/world/africa/23evacuate.html

What was interesting to learn is that although there are only 600 US citizens, there are thousands more with dual citizenship. Seems to be a complicated situation.
jmi256
deanhills wrote:
I don't know, but I'm sympathetic. In Egypt there was a willingness to cooperate. Mubarak was doing everything to please those who supported him in the United States and provided them with immediate clearances to depart the country. In Libya we are dealing with a deranged fanatic, and also a Government with antiquated systems. The US is openly hostile towards Colonel Qaddafi, and there is zero cooperation. So obviously Qaddafi and his Government officials would do everything they can to make it as difficult as possible for expats to leave the country. Does seem though that Qaddafi is trying to cooperate with the Italians.

Here is a good article on expats leaving the country, and it would appear that most of them are leaving by sea:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/world/africa/23evacuate.html

What was interesting to learn is that although there are only 600 US citizens, there are thousands more with dual citizenship. Seems to be a complicated situation.


The issue doesn’t seem to be cooperation, but rather Obama’s mismanagement in getting resources and help in place to get the citizens out. The inability to effectively manage seems to be a common theme in his presidency.
ocalhoun
jmi256 wrote:


The issue doesn’t seem to be cooperation, but rather Obama’s mismanagement in getting resources and help in place to get the citizens out. The inability to effectively manage seems to be a common theme in his presidency.

Rolling Eyes

I'll say the same thing about this as I said about the criticisms of Bush's management of Katrina.
I doubt that the president is personally making the minute decisions, such as whether or not a ferry should sail despite bad weather.

Perhaps you shouldn't jump straight to the president when looking for the source of the mismanagement?
deanhills
jmi256 wrote:
The issue doesn’t seem to be cooperation, but rather Obama’s mismanagement in getting resources and help in place to get the citizens out. The inability to effectively manage seems to be a common theme in his presidency.
I did check through all the reports and maybe you could be right. Obama is super cautious and slow to make decisions, as he was planning to completely sever diplomatic relations with Libya. But with regard to Egypt, the whole of the American Embassy was relocated to Cyprus within a blink of the eye. A total of 1,900 US citizens were flown out of Cairo in four days. I can imagine that must have come at an enormous cost and really tricky relocation manouvres, but it has the appearance of speed and efficiency for me anyway. With Libya, after reading all the reports I could find a second time, maybe you could be right in certain respects.

I'd be curious to know what happened with the Oil company employees that are not clearcut bona fide US citizens, as from the reports I checked up on, the US was only working with US passport holders. I wonder how safe the workers are that have been left behind. Perhaps they could now be targetted as American spies? Looks like a really complicated situation.
Source: Times Live

Looks as though the US made the same arrangements as their European counterparts, by chartering a Ferry:
Quote:
The U.S. embassy in Tripoli announced yesterday that a government-chartered ferry would take American citizens from the Libyan capital to Malta. The statement said people would be taken on a first-come, first-served basis although people with severe medical conditions would get priority.

Source: Bloomberg

There was also a US charter flight to Instanbul. But yes, I can't help but wonder that some of the US citizens must have been left behind. Maybe a Ferry and Charter flight are going to prove inadequate, especially given that the US Government has broken diplomatic ties with Libya now. How many people would fit on a ferry? 300? or more? and a Charter Flight? That is much less than the 600 American passport holders that seem to have been living in Libya. Maybe some of the American passport holders got out with other ferries? To Turkey and Italy?
liljp617
If you ask me, Obama doesn't want these Americans to get to safety. He wants them to be killed...die, if you will....because he hates them and their families. I mean, what other reason could there be? If he wanted them to live, he would board a ship and sail to Libya himself to ensure they were able to leave. If China can do it, the US should be able to. China doesn't have a different relationship with Libya at all.
truespeed
There are still British people stuck in Libya,it seems the American press is just using this issue to have a go at Obama when other countries including our own are having the same problems getting people out.
deanhills
truespeed wrote:
There are still British people stuck in Libya,it seems the American press is just using this issue to have a go at Obama when other countries including our own are having the same problems getting people out.
Seems as though Obama's severing of diplomatic ties with Libya then has been hasty in the circs. Those expats left behind must be more vulnerable than before. He should have allowed expat countries to get out most of their citizens before he cut diplomatic ties. Wonder whether he has intelligence information that the media is lacking.
ocalhoun
liljp617 wrote:
If you ask me, Obama doesn't want these Americans to get to safety. He wants them to be killed...die, if you will....because he hates them and their families. I mean, what other reason could there be? If he wanted them to live, he would board a ship and sail to Libya himself to ensure they were able to leave.

Please tell me this is satirical and/or sarcasm...

Please.

(Because otherwise, it's on exactly the same level as "George Bush hates black people.")
deanhills
liljp617 wrote:
If you ask me, Obama doesn't want these Americans to get to safety. He wants them to be killed...die, if you will....because he hates them and their families. I mean, what other reason could there be? If he wanted them to live, he would board a ship and sail to Libya himself to ensure they were able to leave. If China can do it, the US should be able to. China doesn't have a different relationship with Libya at all.
I don't get the idea that jmi was talking about the intention of Obama, he was talking about Obama's knack for bungling things, like he did for example with the oil disaster in the Mexican Gulf when he had delayed a response to take charge for virtually weeks. He moves agonizingly slowly, and when he is lucky, that does work in his favour, but for most of it, his delays give the impression of "slow to act". jmi compares this with other countries who had been ferrying their citizens out of Libya much earlier than Obama had done. Could have happened because of the absolute ruling that only US passport holders would be ferried out, and to identify those must have taken time, given also that Obama was in the process of closing the Libyan Embassy at the same time. He probably should have waited to get everyone out first, and then close the US Embassy. The Embassy staff must have been in disarray. Interesting that the Embassy staff had a different destination than the American citizens who got ferried out. The Embassy staff were flown to Instanbul, and non-Embassy American citizens ferried to Malta.
liljp617
ocalhoun wrote:
liljp617 wrote:
If you ask me, Obama doesn't want these Americans to get to safety. He wants them to be killed...die, if you will....because he hates them and their families. I mean, what other reason could there be? If he wanted them to live, he would board a ship and sail to Libya himself to ensure they were able to leave.

Please tell me this is satirical and/or sarcasm...

Please.

(Because otherwise, it's on exactly the same level as "George Bush hates black people.")


Just trying to join in the fun. I thought this whole thread was satire Confused
deanhills
liljp617 wrote:
Just trying to join in the fun. I thought this whole thread was satire Confused
Probably time will tell how satirical it really has been? Smile
Quote:
The State Department is still not sure how many of the thousands of Americans living in Libya are still waiting to get out.
If that is true, then the severing of diplomatic relations has to have been premature?
Quote:
While U.S. citizens are finally getting out of Libya, many have rounded on the Obama administration for delays in the evacuation.
Refer article in Dailymail.co.uk.

liljp617
US Department of State

Hillary Rodham Clinton, Secretary of State
James Steinberg, Deputy Secretary
Thomas Nides, Deputy Secretary



Of course, it's Obama's fault that Qadaffi refuses to allow US-chartered flights to land in Libya. And Obama obviously controls the weather. After all, what President hasn't had control of the weather? Nobody in the federal government is concerned that Qadaffi may take American hostages if heavily provoked either. No other country is having any difficulty evacuating people.
handfleisch
liljp617 wrote:
US Department of State

Hillary Rodham Clinton, Secretary of State
James Steinberg, Deputy Secretary
Thomas Nides, Deputy Secretary



Of course, it's Obama's fault that Qadaffi refuses to allow US-chartered flights to land in Libya. And Obama obviously controls the weather. After all, what President hasn't had control of the weather? Nobody in the federal government is concerned that Qadaffi may take American hostages if heavily provoked either. No other country is having any difficulty evacuating people.


If Obama cared, he would row the boat himself and pick them up one by one. And the USA does have weather control so I think this is a plot by Obama to keep the Americans in Libya and then blame the CIA weather control program in order to destroy our intelligence powers and allow the Fabian Socialist-Muslim forces to invade us. The US spetsnaz cells (union thugs and Acorn members) will help them come in and all the left wing groups like the PTA and the KKK will join them. Many brave Libertarians will give their lives to defend the country, smashing tomes of Atlas Shrugged onto the eggheads in academia and the ACLU who allowed this all to happen. In the end good Americans will win by understanding that the Constitution does not allow gay marriage or income tax.
deanhills
handfleisch wrote:
liljp617 wrote:
US Department of State

Hillary Rodham Clinton, Secretary of State
James Steinberg, Deputy Secretary
Thomas Nides, Deputy Secretary



Of course, it's Obama's fault that Qadaffi refuses to allow US-chartered flights to land in Libya. And Obama obviously controls the weather. After all, what President hasn't had control of the weather? Nobody in the federal government is concerned that Qadaffi may take American hostages if heavily provoked either. No other country is having any difficulty evacuating people.


If Obama cared, he would row the boat himself and pick them up one by one. And the USA does have weather control so I think this is a plot by Obama to keep the Americans in Libya and then blame the CIA weather control program in order to destroy our intelligence powers and allow the Fabian Socialist-Muslim forces to invade us. The US spetsnaz cells (union thugs and Acorn members) will help them come in and all the left wing groups like the PTA and the KKK will join them. Many brave Libertarians will give their lives to defend the country, smashing tomes of Atlas Shrugged onto the eggheads in academia and the ACLU who allowed this all to happen. In the end good Americans will win by understanding that the Constitution does not allow gay marriage or income tax.
You forgot the strategic role of the Tea Party and Fox News .... Twisted Evil No doubt they had a role of exchanging favours with Qadaffi along the lines of him delaying the charter of air planes so that Beck and Fox News can get to earn some media mileage out of a special story on this.

@liljp617: There were more than one way of getting people out, most of the expat countries were concentrating on ferries. If you check one of the articles I quoted, the Catamaran/ferry the US Embassy chartered for the US was not a wise choice, as it was not ideal for the weather conditions that was prevailing at the time, and that may have been a contributing cause in the delay in the approvals as well.
liljp617
I wasn't aware Obama specifically chose which ferry would be chartered.
deanhills
liljp617 wrote:
I wasn't aware Obama specifically chose which ferry would be chartered.
jmi could perhaps answer this better, since he posted the OP, but usually when one refers to Obama when talking about politics, it is a collective term including everyone in his administration who have been delegated to do the task. In this instance it would have been Hillary Clinton, and after her the Embassy staff, or who knows, they could have contracted someone to do it, but ultimately, Obama is the one in charge. Not in his personal capacity, but as President. I think they did the same with Bush. No one said that the Military invaded Iraq, they would say Bush invaded Iraq for example. Or Bush mucked it up. Smile
liljp617
deanhills wrote:
liljp617 wrote:
I wasn't aware Obama specifically chose which ferry would be chartered.
jmi could perhaps answer this better, since he posted the OP, but usually when one refers to Obama when talking about politics, it is a collective term including everyone in his administration who have been delegated to do the task. In this instance it would have been Hillary Clinton, and after her the Embassy staff, or who knows, they could have contracted someone to do it, but ultimately, Obama is the one in charge. Not in his personal capacity, but as President. I think they did the same with Bush. No one said that the Military invaded Iraq, they would say Bush invaded Iraq for example. Or Bush mucked it up. Smile


So you are of the opinion that those in charge did not do every reasonable thing they could to evacuate these people? May I ask what specific action(s) you would have taken differently? What did they mismanage, and in what specific ways would you say they could have managed better? What does anyone in charge gain from keeping people from evacuating quickly?

If you want to pin some of the blame on Obama for this current situation, have at it...but at least be specific about what reasonable things he could have done differently and don't paint it out as if he's sitting on a throne as the divine monarch. There's a reason powers are delegated and there's a reason the President is advised from all angles -- because the government is set up to prevent many important decisions being made by one person.

Either way, a ferry was chartered, the weather got bad -- there's nothing anybody in the entire world can do about that. They wanted to land US-chartered planes, Gadaffi refused to allow it -- you don't screw with somebody who's already spilling blood relentlessly and you don't bait someone into taking American hostages.


On a side note, it was nonsense to solely blame Bush for Iraq. Just because people did it doesn't make it correct. Nor does it make current blame issues correct. If blame is going to be assigned, it should be assigned correctly. So yes, a number of people are to blame for Iraq -- the Bush Administration played its role (mostly scare tactics), the intelligence community played its role, Congress certainly played its role, military officials played their roles, etc. *I'm not turning this into a thread about Bush; this is all I'll pretty much say on the subject.*
deanhills
liljp617 wrote:
On a side note, it was nonsense to solely blame Bush for Iraq. Just because people did it doesn't make it correct. Nor does it make current blame issues correct.
OK. Should we then rephrase it Obama Administration, will that make you happy? Twisted Evil

The argument is that the American ferry was one of the last to leave Libya. Other countries such as the UK, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, etc. etc. managed to make arrangements to get their citizens out on ferries almost immediately. I don't know what arrangements they made, but there must have been something they did that the Americans (Obama Administration) did not do.

I've previously mentioned how fast the American Embassy was in getting its citizens out of Egypt, I got a sense of really good management there. Which was pretty unique. Yet in Libya they dithered, and I think they dithered as Obama was working on his Executive Order, and possibly interfered with arrangements that could already have been made. I cannot understand why there was such an urgency to work on an Executive Order, when the focus should have been 100% to get Americans out as quickly and as safely as possible.

Anyway, bottomline, there were delays in Libya in getting people out in comparison with other countries, and also in comparison with the evacuation of Americans in Egypt. There are therefore very good examples of timing and efficiency, and the US flunked in this.
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