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The moon affects the mind.





jeffryjon
I'm placing this thread in the faith forum as it's quite a common faith across the world. Words like lunacy are used even in our society today to describe someone who's mind is seriously disturbed. In India, many rituals are based around the moon and none moreso than MahaShivaRathri, the festival of Shiva, the destroyer of evils. It's performed through the night when the moon has the weakest effect over the minds of individuals and Hindus believe they can make great spiritual progress through prayer and meditation in this time period. Interestingly this year, MahaShivarathri falls on 2 nights because of the cycles of the moon. It starts on 2nd March in South India and finsihes on morning of 4th March in the north. This making 2011 a very powerful year for spiritual and worldly transformation.

There are many of our traditions and faiths that revolve around the moon. Allegedly the menstrual (moon) cycle of women who live 'in tune with nature', along with the inevitable moodswings (can I say moon-swings) in some women (not all). Some people suffer sleeping disorders and sleepwalking episodes affected by the moon. Even if we're not people of faith, we can't help being attracted by the moon. So the moon affects the mind - just a matter of faith, or is it a fact?
deanhills
jeffryjon wrote:
So the moon affects the mind - just a matter of faith, or is it a fact?
I'd like to say fact. If the gravitational force of the moon could be a co-conspirator in the ebb and flow of tides, human beings who are 75% water should be similarly affected? Depending on how sensitive human beings are to these changes, they may show change of mood when changes in the tides are happening.
jeffryjon
That's my thinking too Deanhills and the brain has an even higher percentage of water. If the tides are affected (they are) then it should follow that any body of water / salty water should be affected. As such, the fluids of the brain should be affected and would make it more likely that it could be a valid observation by the ancients. Since our moods can have an affect on the thinking process, the question would be whether the moon's affect on the fluids of the mind is a mood-changer. There have been suggestions that the number of accidents and the attendance at Accident & Emergency rises during a full moon. It was said that the number of cases of violence under the influence of alcohol also rises when a full moon coincides with a weekend or holiday break. I remember some of these studies being released when I worked in emergency services.

The question I would have is whether these phenomena are a direct result of the full moon, or is the reaction purely psychological? Since so many people believe in the effects of the moon on the human psyche, I'd be interested if there's any evidence to show for example whether the effect is just as high when there's cloud cover and the moon's not so clear to the human eye. Is it something that varies greatly from one individual to the next, or is there evidence of increased civil-disturbance or over-sensitivity during the full-moon period?
Dialogist
I think we took a liking to the moon after Galileo discovered that the Sun couldn't care less about us. I think its that ye olde geocentrism coming back with a vengeance. However, what you say about water is extremely interesting. Before Copernicus was printed and Galileo's heresy we had somebody with similar ideas, yet no telescope. Just human instinct. See point 3 of his Codex Hammer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Leicester

He also said,

Da Vinci wrote:
Oysters open completely when the moon is full; and when the crab sees one it throws a piece of stone or seaweed into it and the oyster cannot close again so that it serves the crab for meat. Such is the fate of him who opens his mouth too much and thereby puts himself at the mercy of the listener.


So I'm going to shut up now. But the part about the oysters may be of interest to you.
Ankhanu
Dialogist wrote:
I think we took a liking to the moon after Galileo discovered that the Sun couldn't care less about us. ...


I think we took a liking to the moon MUCH earlier than that. There are moon deities in many of the pre-Abrahamic religions, moon iconography among some of the earliest examples of (pre-)human culture... it's been as much a staple in our environment and development as the Sun and pretty much anything else.

I would be inclined to say that the influence of the moon's phases on human behaviour is completely arbitrary, biologically speaking. Culturally and psychologically, may well be a different story. If I were to toss out an hypothesis as to why people *might* behave differently under different phases (eliminating cultural belief from the equation) of the moon, I would guess it would have something to do with light availability and its influence on how we behave (being poorly adapted to darkness). This influence on behaviour would likely be the precursor to cultural behaviour and belief.

Remember, moon phases are purely a function of moon position relative to the sun and observer, there's no actual change in the moon. The only change is how much reflected sunlight comes to the observer.

Regarding the moon's influence on tide and us being heavily water, therefore it should influence us as well... I have a really hard time accepting that. By that same token, we should be influenced by a roving comet passing through Alpha Centauri, since its gravitational pull has some influence on us here. The moon's gravity has about as much influence on the water in our bodies as it has on the tidal action of a puddle... it's there, but negligible to the point of being virtually non-existent. If the moon caused "tidal" influences on our bodies, all we'd need do to change that influence would be to turn our bodies so that the tide changed sides to alter the effect. Essentially, it could only have an influence on those who remained perfectly still and could not change their position.
LittleBlackKitten
I used to work in a psych unit in a hospital as a security guard. I would stake my earnings on the fact that the moon effects the mind (and so does Friday night!)
ocalhoun
No way to really test it scientifically until we get people living (and being carefully observed) outside of Earth-orbit.

It would be interesting to see what effects the differences in solar and lunar cycles would have on Mars colonists, for example.
Dialogist
ocalhoun wrote:

It would be interesting to see what effects the differences in solar and lunar cycles would have on Mars colonists, for example.


Maybe this is why Buzz Aldrin breaks down in tears every time he's asked about the Moon. Or maybe there's another reason for that? Wink

Da Vinci wrote:

...Such is the fate of him who opens his mouth too much and...


Yeah, I heard you the first time. Close your mouth.
deanhills
jeffryjon wrote:
The question I would have is whether these phenomena are a direct result of the full moon, or is the reaction purely psychological? Since so many people believe in the effects of the moon on the human psyche, I'd be interested if there's any evidence to show for example whether the effect is just as high when there's cloud cover and the moon's not so clear to the human eye. Is it something that varies greatly from one individual to the next, or is there evidence of increased civil-disturbance or over-sensitivity during the full-moon period?
I understand where you are coming from, and I would say both. Some of it is real, and some of it is imagined. Provided that I am chanelled in, I can be sensitive to environmental "vibes". I'm not into the moon phases at all. But there are times when things feel slightly weird and then at the end of the evening I notice the moon is full! And wonder whether that had something to do with that weird environmental atmosphere.

Scientifically of course there is no real evidence that connect the phases of moon with our mental dispositions. But for me it just makes sense that the moon does have an effect, but at the same time that some of our fascination with the moon is psychological. We may be over-romantisizing it for example or give it a bigger role, just because it is big and visible outside earth, and ditto the sun.
Dialogist wrote:
He also said,
Da Vinci wrote:
Oysters open completely when the moon is full; and when the crab sees one it throws a piece of stone or seaweed into it and the oyster cannot close again so that it serves the crab for meat. Such is the fate of him who opens his mouth too much and thereby puts himself at the mercy of the listener.
So I'm going to shut up now. But the part about the oysters may be of interest to you.
I found that absolutely fascinating, thanks for posting the quote! Smile
Bikerman
Is there an effect?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_effect
There have been numerous trials and the evidence is pretty conclusive - no effect. There is little point, therefore, in speculating about a mechanism.
Rule 0 - To explain a phenomenon : first start with a phenomenon to explain.

On the broader question, it seems somewhat likely that lunar cycles would be very important in folklore as well as observed 'reality'. Simple observations of the moon give an accurate time measurement, albeit of a coarse scale. After the rather more arbitrary measure of 'day/night', lunar cycles give an easily checked/observed measure of time.
deanhills
Bikerman wrote:
Is there an effect?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_effect
There have been numerous trials and the evidence is pretty conclusive - no effect. There is little point, therefore, in speculating about a mechanism.
Rule 0 - To explain a phenomenon : first start with a phenomenon to explain.

On the broader question, it seems somewhat likely that lunar cycles would be very important in folklore as well as observed 'reality'. Simple observations of the moon give an accurate time measurement, albeit of a coarse scale. After the rather more arbitrary measure of 'day/night', lunar cycles give an easily checked/observed measure of time.
I think it was agreed right from the beginning of the discussion that there is no empirical evidence for it, as that has been well documented everywhere, including Wikipedia. We were discussing this from a faith point of view. Smile
Bikerman
deanhills wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
Is there an effect?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_effect
There have been numerous trials and the evidence is pretty conclusive - no effect. There is little point, therefore, in speculating about a mechanism.
Rule 0 - To explain a phenomenon : first start with a phenomenon to explain.

On the broader question, it seems somewhat likely that lunar cycles would be very important in folklore as well as observed 'reality'. Simple observations of the moon give an accurate time measurement, albeit of a coarse scale. After the rather more arbitrary measure of 'day/night', lunar cycles give an easily checked/observed measure of time.
I think it was agreed right from the beginning of the discussion that there is no empirical evidence for it, as that has been well documented everywhere, including Wikipedia. We were discussing this from a faith point of view. Smile
Absolutely wrong. Firstly tt was not agreed from the beginning; secondly the OP specifically asks if this is factual or not; thirdly I didn't say there was no evidence - there is plenty, nearly all AGAINST the claim.
jeffryjon
Just out of interest, here are some claims in support of the moon's effect on humans.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-the-moon-rules-your-life-433071.html

http://www.biology-online.org/articles/lunar_cycle_effects_human/summary.html

true enough, there are many studies which apparently prove there is no correlation between the moon and humans, but is it possible that faith or a belief in the subconscious has an effect?

Remember how when the nit-nurse would visit school and the number of children scratching the itch of nits would spread around the class. There was no suggestion that we all had an infestation and yet numerous children would begin to itch. One or two at first and then in some cases it would spread like wildfire. In some cases even when it was found that nobody in the class had nits, the itching would continue after the nurse left.

As children, we were subjected to many myths and/or stories about the moon and its effect. In the West, werewolves and other mysterious creatures were supposed to come to the forefront and in other cultures a whole variety of supernatural beings are supposed to gain power. Is it possible that when the belief is strong enough that the mind is automatically affected by the moon cycle triggering some kind of response? A kind of worldwide mass hypnosis.
Bikerman
I would not rule it out - the placebo effect in general is still poorly understood.
Unfortunately neither study cited actually tells us much. It is almost impossible that some physiological phenomena DO NOT show a monthly cycle - one would expect to see such a cycle naturally occuring in humans because of the obvious relationship to seasonal and circadian rythms.
ocalhoun
Bikerman wrote:
It is almost impossible that some physiological phenomena DO NOT show a monthly cycle - one would expect to see such a cycle naturally occuring in humans because of the obvious relationship to seasonal and circadian rythms.

The moon may not directly affect the mind, but it seems to me that the monthly cycles (observed in both genders) would seem to be somehow developed based on the lunar cycle.
(ie. without the moon, we might not have developed monthly cycles, or they might have taken on a different time frame/frequency.)
Bikerman
Again I can see some valid reasons why this could be the case.
We know that our basic clock is kept regulated using light intensity and I see no reason why there would not be other clocks or periodic phenomena based on a 28 day cycle - menstruation is sort of an example methinks. Now, if menstruation matches the monthly cycles (as is does for some) then I can offer a perfectly plausible explanation for at least one observed behaviour 'abberation' - pPMS. As any partner of a sufferer knows, it stands for :- please mind step, perfectly modulated spouse, pleasant moods and smiles, then, pumpkin, midnight, spell? previously mellow soulmate is now petty, mean, spiteful, with particular mean streak; pouting, moaning, sulking; provoking marital stress with poisonous, moody, sarcasm; promising mutual sniping and pointed moments of silence, prefacing much shouting and a pretty miserable saturday Wink
silverdown
interesting interesting.. thanks for sharing.. Very Happy
deanhills
Bikerman wrote:
Absolutely wrong. Firstly tt was not agreed from the beginning; secondly the OP specifically asks if this is factual or not; thirdly I didn't say there was no evidence - there is plenty, nearly all AGAINST the claim.
I thought it was.

OK, so now that we are into specifics, what evidence is there against the claim then? I was happy to go along with "no evidence" for or against, but evidence against would be interesting to debate.

I thought Ocalhoun had a very good point earlier on when he had said:
ocalhoun wrote:
No way to really test it scientifically until we get people living (and being carefully observed) outside of Earth-orbit.

It would be interesting to see what effects the differences in solar and lunar cycles would have on Mars colonists, for example.
I would say that makes great sense to me and I agree with his point of view.

jeffryjon wrote:
Is it possible that when the belief is strong enough that the mind is automatically affected by the moon cycle triggering some kind of response? A kind of worldwide mass hypnosis.
I don't know about worldwide mass hypnosis, as not all members of the homo sapiens are really channelled into this kind of thinking, but I agree with where you are coming from. Almost like a wishful prophecy, or manifestation of years of suggestive thinking that opens us to this.

I personally believe that everything in the universe is connected. So it would make sense that we would be influenced by everything in the planet system as well. I sometimes wonder whether our "intelligence" and egos have the ability to separate us from this connectedness. And that real intelligence lies more in connection than separation?
jeffryjon
deanhills wrote:
jeffryjon wrote:
Is it possible that when the belief is strong enough that the mind is automatically affected by the moon cycle triggering some kind of response? A kind of worldwide mass hypnosis.
I don't know about worldwide mass hypnosis, as not all members of the homo sapiens are really channelled into this kind of thinking, but I agree with where you are coming from. Almost like a wishful prophecy, or manifestation of years of suggestive thinking that opens us to this.

I personally believe that everything in the universe is connected. So it would make sense that we would be influenced by everything in the planet system as well. I sometimes wonder whether our "intelligence" and egos have the ability to separate us from this connectedness. And that real intelligence lies more in connection than separation?


I'd agree with you that intelligence lies in the connection, rather than the separation Deanhills. This to me is what allows us to join the dots and gain understanding about (or a relationship with) something. To some extent, it's my connection with others who hold a faith in the effects of the moon that led me to start this thread.

The mind relies on images or replicas of reality and is (at least when it's functioning properly) connecting with reality through those images and constantly modifying its conclusions to fall into alignment with the truth. My interest in his thread for example is based on gaining a better understanding of how and in what way the moon affects the mind. Even if I don't see any effect on myself, the reality that it affects others and possibly some of my peers means that my reality would be affected to some greater or lesser extent. As such, I felt the intelligent thing to do was to connect with the widely held belief and look into the matter further. I know that hypnotic triggers can have an enormous effect on someone's life and we all use and are affected by them to some extent or another.

Bikerman wrote:
We know that our basic clock is kept regulated using light intensity and I see no reason why there would not be other clocks or periodic phenomena based on a 28 day cycle - menstruation is sort of an example methinks. Now, if menstruation matches the monthly cycles (as is does for some) then I can offer a perfectly plausible explanation for at least one observed behaviour 'abberation' - pPMS. As any partner of a sufferer knows, it stands for :- please mind step, perfectly modulated spouse, pleasant moods and smiles, then, pumpkin, midnight, spell? previously mellow soulmate is now petty, mean, spiteful, with particular mean streak; pouting, moaning, sulking; provoking marital stress with poisonous, moody, sarcasm; promising mutual sniping and pointed moments of silence, prefacing much shouting and a pretty miserable saturday Wink


Yes it would make sense that in the days (or in areas) where artificial lighting took more effort to create that we'd adapt as a species to work our sleep cycles around natural lighting cycles. As such, we may have accepted that less light in the sky when the moonlight is absent means a more peaceful sleep and less active mind. Once deeply ingrained in society, everything else associated with the moon cycles may have evolved. This is why I brought in the possibility of hypnotic triggers. If someone believes strongly enough that they cannot sleep because of a full moon then next time the full moon appears it could trigger the same phenomena. As such the question would still remain as to whether it's really the moon affecting the mind or the relationship we as a species have developed with it.
nitram
jeffryjon wrote:
I'm placing this thread in the faith forum as it's quite a common faith across the world. Words like lunacy are used even in our society today to describe someone who's mind is seriously disturbed. In India, many rituals are based around the moon and none moreso than MahaShivaRathri, the festival of Shiva, the destroyer of evils. It's performed through the night when the moon has the weakest effect over the minds of individuals and Hindus believe they can make great spiritual progress through prayer and meditation in this time period. Interestingly this year, MahaShivarathri falls on 2 nights because of the cycles of the moon. It starts on 2nd March in South India and finsihes on morning of 4th March in the north. This making 2011 a very powerful year for spiritual and worldly transformation.

There are many of our traditions and faiths that revolve around the moon. Allegedly the menstrual (moon) cycle of women who live 'in tune with nature', along with the inevitable moodswings (can I say moon-swings) in some women (not all). Some people suffer sleeping disorders and sleepwalking episodes affected by the moon. Even if we're not people of faith, we can't help being attracted by the moon. So the moon affects the mind - just a matter of faith, or is it a fact?
Rolling Eyes

Removed an apparently accidental set of quote tags. -ocalhoun
bukaida
I have seen some orthopedic patients having more pain during full moon and new moon periods. So there may be some relation between these two.

Moreover, for me , a forest, snowy mountain or river bed view under a clear full moon is unparallel. It has a soothing effect on eye and mind.

And who can ignore the effect of Honeymoon on a newly married couple? Very Happy

So moon has some effect on us ( one way or the other). Smile
loonix
Ask yourself why is the moon rock far older than earth rock. Once we can crack that...

The moon is an artificial construct which plays an integral role in the mass-hypnosis of humanity. I can't measure or prove what I say nor do I care too. But in a faith forum we do we even need too?

The truth is stranger than fiction.
Bikerman
loonix wrote:
Ask yourself why is the moon rock far older than earth rock. Once we can crack that...
Or better yet, examine the data and find out that the age of the moon corresponds nicely with that of the earth. The reason surface rocks on the moon are older than surface rocks on earth is very obvious. The earth has a changing active surface and rocks erode. The moon does not.
jeffryjon
There are various theories about how the Earth's moon came into being. A few are below - some with more crdedibility than others. Not sure how well this fits with the faith forum but anyhow.

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronomy/moon/Mooninside.shtml

http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question38.html

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question777.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mdreyes3/chaptersix.htm

Also another theory (couldn't find a page unfortunately) that a supervolcano or somehing of the likes spewed out enough substance that coagulated into the moon as it cooled, which could explain the lack of any fossil evidence. Maybe this is better placed in the science section but anyhow - let's give it a go here for a while and see if anything useful comes of it.
Bikerman
Well, the Giant Impactor theory is currently the most scientifically feasible one (or it was, last time I seriously looked at it - about 3 years ago). I believe there is other evidence to support that hypothesis but since this is not the science forums it's probably best to leave that for there.

I cannot think of any physics which would allow the moon to be significantly younger than the earth, since that would involve a relatively large change in the orbital characteristics - particularly the 'wobble' around the axis - and would have produced an entirely different climate, and by extension, climatic record. There would also have been a completely different seasonal pattern etc etc...
shivaghimire
deanhills wrote:
jeffryjon wrote:
So the moon affects the mind - just a matter of faith, or is it a fact?
I'd like to say fact. If the gravitational force of the moon could be a co-conspirator in the ebb and flow of tides, human beings who are 75% water should be similarly affected? Depending on how sensitive human beings are to these changes, they may show change of mood when changes in the tides are happening.

I 100% supports Deanhills. Including moon other planets also affects man's behavior, character, mood and whole life is affected and is under the control of moon and other planets.
Bikerman
Baloney.
The gravitational effect of the planets is negligible - you get a bigger change in gravity just travelling around on the surface of earth - let alone going up in a plane. The idea that the moon exerts a tidal force on humans that influences our behaviour is bunk. It has been soundly refuted many time. Every now and again someone pops up in the un-reviewed literature with an 'effect' and whenever it is properly reviewed it turns out to be bad stats, experimental error or unconscious data shaping. I don't believe there is any lunar influence on human behaviour, but I remain open to the possibility. The chance of it being gravitational, however, seems to me to be slim to none...and slim is just about to leave town.
Obviously there will be some correlations - look hard enough at any unconnected or loosely connected phenomena and you will find correlations - share prices and skirt length for example. There is also the fact that the amount of light changes with the phases and that MUST have an influence on things like accident statistics..
As for astrology....not even worth the effort of scoffing at it.
dan751
In my opinion:
I have noticed a pattern of people behaving more strangely during the approach and the night of the full moon. Whether they're aware of it or not. Even if it's a slight increase in irritability to a decrease in libido. Whatever the changes (as everyone responds differently), I do see changes in people towards that night, and most noticeable on that night. Nobody is immune to it.
Bikerman
I think you are projecting your own beliefs onto other people. There is absolutely NO WAY that you could see such a change in people generally, otherwise it would be child's play to pick it up in proper studies.
dan751
Bikerman wrote:
I think you are projecting your own beliefs onto other people.

Perhaps you should read the first part of my posts when I state that I'm sharing my thoughts, and not imposing them on people, or would you prefer me to adjust the size and colour when I say: "IN MY OPINION"?
I'll admit, I'm quite annoyed that you keep passing judgement on others, including me.
Bikerman wrote:
There is absolutely NO WAY that you could see such a change in people generally, otherwise it would be child's play to pick it up in proper studies.

Then you don't know me very well. It is my opinion that nobody is invulnerable to the full moon. Not yours and I don't care if you don't agree with me, as that's your opinion.
catscratches
When Bikerman says that you project your beliefs onto other people, he means that you notice an increase in irritability only because you believe such a change will occur. Your own beliefs are clouding your reason. In fact, there might not be any change in behaviour at all, you only presume there is and hence see it. This is one of the reasons why personal experience is not viable evidence.
dan751
@catscratches: And yet, you're in the faith forum, a forum that has to do mostly, if not entirely, to do with personal experience.
We humans observe many different things without our knowledge or awareness.
I never considered it before until a few months ago, after someone asked me what I think of the full moon affects peoples minds. I thought about it for a bit, and did notice a pattern.
For example: My girlfriend and I were talking about vampires last night, she was telling me how she saw this documentary that some people think they're real vampires and so on... We never talk about vampires... We looked up and noticed the moon was full. The air suddenly had an strange feel to it.
deanhills
catscratches wrote:
When Bikerman says that you project your beliefs onto other people, he means that you notice an increase in irritability only because you believe such a change will occur. Your own beliefs are clouding your reason. In fact, there might not be any change in behaviour at all, you only presume there is and hence see it. This is one of the reasons why personal experience is not viable evidence.
Why should reason be the only route to the truth? Why can't we have it both ways, i.e. use our reason as well as our intuition and experiences for a greater insight into ourselves and the universe? In the end all of us are part of the same universe and we are connected, and most of that connection is reflected in experience. If there is too much emphasis on reason there is a good chance that we could get divorced from the reality of the experience by looking from the outside in only.
catscratches
dan751 wrote:
@catscratches: And yet, you're in the faith forum, a forum that has to do mostly, if not entirely, to do with personal experience.
Indeed. I should probably stay far away from here.

deanhills wrote:
Why should reason be the only route to the truth?
Because it's the only good way? Sure, you can form your own life based on your experiences, but as soon as you present your beliefs to anyone else, personal experience is worthless.

deanhills wrote:
In the end all of us are part of the same universe and we are connected, and most of that connection is reflected in experience.
Connected? What?
dan751
catscratches wrote:

deanhills wrote:
Why should reason be the only route to the truth?
Because it's the only good way? Sure, you can form your own life based on your experiences, but as soon as you present your beliefs to anyone else, personal experience is worthless.

And when someone shares a personal experience with someone else and the someone else says, "That's sounds like an experience I had". So they had similar experiences, that makes it worthless? Or do you think they would develop a stronger rapport?
catscratches wrote:

deanhills wrote:
In the end all of us are part of the same universe and we are connected, and most of that connection is reflected in experience.
Connected? What?

Physically speaking, we're all connected to the same basic needs, and so on. We are connected to this planet, unless you know of someone who can breathe in the airless vacuum of space, or someone who can survive in the middle of the sun. So, we're all connected to the same basic risks and conditions, are we not? The way I see things, that connection runs much deeper than just the physical universe. The moon has it's effects on people, just as a hot cloudless summer day does. Though the sun's effects are physical and the moon's are psychological.
IO9 Mad Science wrote:
In 1998, a three-month psychological study of 1,200 inmates at Armley jail in Leeds discovered a rise in violent incidents during the days either side of a full moon.
(Taken from: http://io9.com/5086250/does-the-full-moon-really-make-people-crazy)
(Original Article for further reading: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/kent/6723911.stm)

Although, there isn't really any scientific grounds, it is again, based on experience and observation.
shivaghimire
Moon gravity affects our mind so our mood, behavior are changeable. The most affecting period of moon on our mind is on the days of New moon night, full moon night and on eclipse days. You can notice and observe the behavior of people. They might have got positive or negative effects on them.
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