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was Hitler a Christian?





criticaldensity
Ive always wondered. I've read online (i know, NOT a reliable source) and I THINK i heard it on the History channel, not positive. Anyone have a source?
hmm
Resident Egoist
Why don't you define "Christian" and then apply the criteria of your definition to the the person of Hitler?

If you do want the straight-forward version however, Hitler did call and consider himself a Christian.

By the way, the web is not an inherently unreliable source of information. That wholly depends on the kind of individual you are getting your information from. The internet is merely a means of transmitting information, and not itself a creator of said information.
soilgrain
I once read something that said Hitler thought he was doing "a favour for God" by wiping out all the "imperfect races".
Dragonfly
Be it Hitler or Osama Bin Laden they come in sheep clothings. They may come in the name of God which invites more sympathy from some quarters. But they are evil trying to devour innocent people. They may claim this religion or that religion but they are who they are, Hitler cannot be termed as a Christian so does Osama a muslim. They are the enemies of Christ and Mohammed themselves.
atomictoyz
I know that among anti-Christians, it is commonly said that Hitler was a Christian but if you read his writings you will see that he used Christianity as a vehicle for his madness. When he was a youth he was studying politics and ways to get his ideas put forth. He noticed that during one of the elections of local politicians that religion was a key player in winning the people's confidence. I cannot remember the political parties name but the party name did include the term Christian. Adolph hated the Jews only because they represented German oppression and defeat in World War One. You can say that a large amount of anti-religion is caused by incidents during childhood and the door swings the other way, because its oppression and not religion that is the root so to speak.

In Hitlers writings you can see where as he no longer needed Christianity that his mantra was similar but now included Christians. There is a public record of the number of Christians who where killed during the holocaust as well as record of Hitler burning bibles. Any dictator that has come to power usually hates the bible because it teaches not to swear by an allegiance other than to God. The only way for alot of politicians to succeed is to attach themselves to a religion.

I would say that since reading the bible is no longer as popular as it was in the past that a large portion of society no longer knows the definition of Christian and uses the media, secular anti christian books and the head line news to form their idea of what a Christian is. The bible is the only authoritative source of the definition. A Christian is a desciple of Jesus Christ who lives according to the teachings of Jesus. While many people fail as they try there are many more who never try and still call themselves by that name. Just remember just because you wear a Girl Scout Uniform doesn't mean you a Girl Scout...especially if your a Manly man Smile

Its truely sad that Christianity has been hijacked by so many radicalists.

Same for Moslems etc...


I did some research on genocide once an discovered that religion is usually a factor in genocide but not the cause. Religious people are usually the target while the offender is just out of his mind. If you look at Stalen, Hitler and Pol Pot specifically the number killed is staggering. I still want research it more because I want to know why people allow it to happen when they see it.

I would't blame religion or non-religion on these atrocities because it seems to be strictly an ego and sanity thing. I also think drugs are involved.

If you read the New testament by definition Christians are humble people who prefer not to be involved in politics and power positions. I have even argued that Christians should not use old testament law for supporting the Death Penalty unless the law was already in place by secularism. St Peter was Rebuked for cutting off an ear because the war is not physical but rather spiritual.

Peace,
Atomic
Dark_Jedi06
I don't care if Hitler was a Christian, a Catholic, or an Atheist like myself. The man was a plague to the human race no matter what religion he belonged to and labeling him as one or the other is useless, does it really matter what faith he belonged to? Either way he slaughtered millions.
GDG
i think he might have been chrisitian, i mean he did kill jews and all. and dont jews have soemthing to do with like teh antichrist thing. but then yet again, who knows.
fsk141
Ok simply put Hitler wasn't a christian, he had no moral belief system, he put people through living hell, and if he was a sect of christianity at one time he turned himself away from God and offically turned himself away from the faith.
SBrian
He said he was, but someone who killed so many people is not a Christian.
Ioana
As far as I remember from my history lessons he still tolerated the christian church in the third reich till the end. Nevertheless the education of public and youth went against religion. They tried to revive some old germanic cults, which contain heroic myths that are suitable with the visions of strengh of the new humanity that was going to be created. Himself and some of his followers were supposed to be mistics following the cult around Thule.
But this is just memeory from school, I don't know the sources right now.
atomictoyz
GDG wrote:
i think he might have been chrisitian, i mean he did kill jews and all. and dont jews have soemthing to do with like teh antichrist thing. but then yet again, who knows.


Nope, the Jews have nothing to do with the anti-Christ and killing Jews under any circumstance is a big no no. According to Christian scriptures the Jews are a special chosen people and Christians were reminded by the the Apostle Paul for gentiles who were converted not to get cocky and look down on the Jews. The Apostles were Jewish or part Jewish and they were told to first preach the Gospel to them and the gentiles later.

Murder is bad!


Peace,
Atomic
Sunny
I believe you wanted to reply to this topic http://www.frihost.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12259
but hit new topic instead, if so you can pm a MOD and he will merge the thread I think. If not then I can't figure out what your post is all about and what it has to do with world news.
atomictoyz
Ioana wrote:
As far as I remember from my history lessons he still tolerated the christian church in the third reich till the end. Nevertheless the education of public and youth went against religion. They tried to revive some old germanic cults, which contain heroic myths that are suitable with the visions of strengh of the new humanity that was going to be created. Himself and some of his followers were supposed to be mistics following the cult around Thule.
But this is just memeory from school, I don't know the sources right now.


He tolerated only the "Catholic Church" only because he knew that the political power had the ability to stop him at will.

Remember that history taught in school is a book based on consensus with many scholars giving imput to teach you what THEY want to teach you. Many times important facts are sidelined for an agenda.

Do some research on the number of Christians killed by Hitler.

Hitler was nuts.

Peace,
Atomic
artguy
If there was a God who cared, he wouldn't allow psychos like Osama and Hitler to use religion and God's name to spread the death, pain and suffering they spread. Face it people, we are on our own. If there is a God, he doesn't give a rat's ass about you or me or anyone else. Look at all the earthquake and tsunami victims... thousands of totally innocent people including kids. And God controls nature, right? That's why the call it "acts of god".

It just amazes me that people continue to believe in a caring God with all the crap that's going on in the world today. Is it so hard for you to accept the painful truth that we are on our own and there is no magical man in the sky who looks down on us and sees everything? There isn't a single shred of scientific evidence that a caring God exists, by the way. It's all myth.

Venus, Athena, Zeus, Aphrodite, etc... those are all gods and goddesses from Greek and Roman mythology. You know why they call it "mythology" ? Because it has no believers anymore. If there were millions of people who believed it, it would be called a religion.

So... perhaps a few thousands years from now, our current religions will be called "Christian mythology" and "Islamic mythology".
tidruG
Sunny wrote:
I believe you wanted to reply to this topic http://www.frihost.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12259
but hit new topic instead, if so you can pm a MOD and he will merge the thread I think. If not then I can't figure out what your post is all about and what it has to do with world news.

He didn't PM me but I found this thread anyway. Thanks for providing the link to the original thread. You saved quite a bit of my time. I would have had to open a new window and check the thread id of the original thread had you not provided a link to it already.
atomictoyz
artguy wrote:
If there was a God who cared, he wouldn't allow psychos like Osama and Hitler to use religion and God's name to spread the death, pain and suffering they spread. Face it people, we are on our own. If there is a God, he doesn't give a rat's *** about you or me or anyone else. Look at all the earthquake and tsunami victims... thousands of totally innocent people including kids. And God controls nature, right? That's why the call it "acts of god".

It just amazes me that people continue to believe in a caring God with all the crap that's going on in the world today. Is it so hard for you to accept the painful truth that we are on our own and there is no magical man in the sky who looks down on us and sees everything? There isn't a single shred of scientific evidence that a caring God exists, by the way. It's all myth.

Venus, Athena, Zeus, Aphrodite, etc... those are all gods and goddesses from Greek and Roman mythology. You know why they call it "mythology" ? Because it has no believers anymore. If there were millions of people who believed it, it would be called a religion.

So... perhaps a few thousands years from now, our current religions will be called "Christian mythology" and "Islamic mythology".


Maybe you should learn about parenting or something before you try to characterize God from your misconceptions and obvious anger over this issue. Some people just don't understand God because they have limited Him by thinking that all there is too life is having someone change your diaper and wiping your butt. God cares but the rules are not what you like.

It is usually bandwidth waste when try to respond to hateful rhetoric.

But on the happy note for you. If there is no God and all of life is nothing but pond scum meandering without purpose through billions of years, your post is nothing more than a extension of mathmatical improbablility.


Intelligence is a myth.

Keep up the great work. E-Coli always wins Smile

Peace,
Atomic
illini319
atomictoyz wrote:
If there is no God and all of life is nothing but pond scum meandering without purpose through billions of years, your post is nothing more than a extension of mathmatical improbablility.


Intelligence is a myth.


Intelligence is what separates (most) of us from the other inhabitants of this world.

The inability to fully appreciate how purely stochastic events can create order does NOT logically lead to intelligent design as the viable explanation.

Pond scum is a biosphere unto itself. Pond scum is not one thing, but a multitude of unicellular and multicellular organisms feeding off each other in order to ultimately recycle the 'waste' that the pond (and its inhabitants) have created. Pond scum, THEREFORE, is inherently purposeful.

-----

On a more direct note to the topic at hand:

Nothing in the history of man has been more divisive than deeds done in the name of religion. Whether or not Hitler was christian in his eyes, or he was christian by theologic definition is irrelevant. the simple fact is that he had used christianity to drive a wedge between those he hoped would support him, and those he hoped to eliminate. Once he had the support he required, ideologies were less necessary. Let's not forget that, while there was a specific holocaust against jews, it did not stop him from waging war against christian (and muslim) nations across europe, asia, and africa. How many non-jewish people died? and why are these, collectively, not called holocausts?
qljune
Agree with the above posts, that religion is used a vehicle to garner in support.
I mean this is quite evident even in recent times, where Islamic extremists make use of Islam to win over supporters, in their bid to wage wars against their opponents. From my experiences with Muslim friends (am not a Muslim), Islam is actually a very peaceful religion. However, the extremists have twisted and turned the teachings to manipulate the followers to carry out their agenda, at the expense of their life.
I believe that Hitler had wanted the support of the German majority, who also happened to be Christians. Hence, in order to do so, he needed to 'ride' on their beliefs and interest before he could convince them of his propaganda.
I believe that had he portray himself as a non-Christian, (let's not even talk about beig anti-Christ) he would never have gotten the support that he wanted.
Ioana
tidruG wrote:

He didn't PM me but I found this thread anyway. Thanks for providing the link to the original thread. You saved quite a bit of my time. I would have had to open a new window and check the thread id of the original thread had you not provided a link to it already.



Thank you.
mengshi200
I hope from now on the man as hitler will not appear for ever.
he is disaster's envoy.
atomictoyz
[quote="illini319"]
atomictoyz wrote:
If there is no God and all of life is nothing but pond scum meandering without purpose through billions of years, your post is nothing more than a extension of mathmatical improbablility.


Intelligence is a myth.


illini319 wrote:

Intelligence is what separates (most) of us from the other inhabitants of this world.

The inability to fully appreciate how purely stochastic events can create order does NOT logically lead to intelligent design as the viable explanation.
From purely a scientific position, if it cannot be explained via mathmatical expression than it does not exist. Based Upon Poppers criteria. Intelligence is outside of scientific explanation. While scientists over the last few generations have revised definitions to make ideas more plausible it does not indeed make them fact or scientific.

illini319 wrote:

Pond scum is a biosphere unto itself. Pond scum is not one thing, but a multitude of unicellular and multicellular organisms feeding off each other in order to ultimately recycle the 'waste' that the pond (and its inhabitants) have created. Pond scum, THEREFORE, is inherently purposeful.


Nice twist on a theme. Existentiality and Purpose being one in the same maybe? Just because you exist and do something other than nothing happens does not imply purpose.

illini319 wrote:

-----

On a more direct note to the topic at hand:

Nothing in the history of man has been more divisive than deeds done in the name of religion. Whether or not Hitler was christian in his eyes, or he was christian by theologic definition is irrelevant. the simple fact is that he had used christianity to drive a wedge between those he hoped would support him, and those he hoped to eliminate. Once he had the support he required, ideologies were less necessary. Let's not forget that, while there was a specific holocaust against jews, it did not stop him from waging war against christian (and muslim) nations across europe, asia, and africa. How many non-jewish people died? and why are these, collectively, not called holocausts?



The trouble is the only way to determine whether religion is the cause is to remove it and see if the same thing happens without out it. Without an A/B comparison you cannot derive a root cause.

Another point to review is that if the religion condemns violence then it really isn't the fault of religion but the fault of mankind to play by the rules. Is it the laws fault when someone steals or is it the individual who chooses?

There are strong indicators that culture and ethnicity are more of a root cause to atrocities because the atrocities happen despite the restrictions of religion.

Another way to look at whether religion is the root cause is whether or not ALL believers of a religion behave in such a way that every member committs the same acts. When the Band Judas Priest was being sued because thier album made 2 boys kill themselves, the conclusion was unless ALL or a Majority of the persons who listened to the material committed the same acts the material could not be responsible for the actions of a few. Of coarse using this to defend religion would not be acceptable among anti-religious people because it would remove the ability to condemn religion for all the worlds problems. So the only way to solve the worlds problems is to illegalize religion or eradicate the believers. Which would be difficult at best.

The solution is not to illegalize or eradicate religion or it's believers but to educate them. Using the "all religion is bad" mantra will lead to further difficulties. Educate using facts and not emotional opinions on what you think.
I spend more time telling Christians who are less aware of history and even their own religion. Martin Luther made a wonderful discovery after actually "reading" the bible and I think a majority of people should do the same. But they wont unless prompted. There are too many distractions and other things to do than learn about respect, love, perseverence, accountability and generosity.

People are the problem.

Peace,
Atomic
SharKay
Quote:
Face it people, we are on our own.


It always amazes me how some people can open up their mouth and swallow their faces.

You are on your own because you choose to be. Usually the ones that try so hard to disprove the existence of God/Jesus are the ones who blame him for something, and are without understanding of the creator.

There is one fact that you can not disprove and that is for years people have tryed and tryed to disprove the Bible and it still stands firm and strong. I would rather believe in the Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Immutable God, than man as we see him in his state of destruction.
S3nd K3ys
SharKay wrote:
...

There is one fact that you can not disprove and that is for years people have tryed and tryed to disprove the Bible and it still stands firm and strong.....


You mean that book that was written long ago by many people? That's fact? It's existance IS fact. What it says is NOT. (Some is provable, but mostly not).

The existance of Al-Kitab Al-Aqdas, Koran, Hindu Vedas and Tipitaka are also FACT in their existance.

Just because they exist does not make the contents of them FACT.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-religion, I just have to question your statement that it is a 'fact that you can not disprove'.
SharKay
The contents of the Bible do not change...it stands...the translations have made it easier for those who study it.. The contents stay the same...it is and will always be the infalible word of God.

Right and Wrong....What is sin and what is not sin.....Light and Dark.....
Man...those living to self take the Bible and add to it and change it to beable to live in their own sinful nature....

Man in his wanting to be the surpreme figure will change the meaning and dispute the infalible words.

I choose to serve ( Light ) God...who teaches a better way...a more peaceful way of life...upon excepting Christ.... eternal life.....

I choose not to serve (Darkness) Satan....who gives nothing but distruction...pain and suffering....and death.

Everyone will have their finial judgement....I choose to except the God who created me and if I am right I loose nothing, but if I were to choose not to serve God and found out that He is and was and will be...I will loose everything.....

Why is so many trying so hard to remove the Bible ...from as much as they can...and not anything else.....ask yourself that question. Why are so many trying to remove anything pertaining to God....Why is the freedom of speaking what we as Christians believe in trying to be so strongly taken away from us. Nothing else is....the fact that you can openly discuss satanisim is not being taken to court. The symbols that pertain to satan are not being taken to court for removal.

Christians are being stoped from say Jesus because it offends someone, but yet people can walk down the streets and curse and say some of the most dispicable things and it makes no difference that it offends us.

The cross, the ten commandments, in God we trust, ect ect. Why is it being come against so hard. Because it offends the sin nature and if it is removed than man in his sin do not have to see it.

I'm not ashamed of who and what I stand for....I'm not ashamed to say I believe in Jesus....and I'm not ashamed to let people know about Jesus.

And yes I mean the book that was written so very long ago....that many scientist have tried to dispute and have not been able to....And many of them are now serving the very one they tried to say did not exist.

Why after all these years are there people who are fighting hard to remove ( In God We Trust ) If they want the word God removed what do they want to replace it with. In Man We Trust....In Satan We Trust....In Lies We Trust....I will never submit to that.
S3nd K3ys
SharKay wrote:
The contents of the Bible do not change...it stands...the translations have made it easier for those who study it.. The contents stay the same...it is and will always be the infalible word of God.
...


The FACT remains that there is little proof of the content exists. Like I said, just because it exists, does not make it's content FACT.
SharKay
That is why the Bible is so awesome...It's content doesn't have to be proven...Everything points to the fact that it is Factual.

We don't have to prove its authenticity or weather it is factual. It speaks for it's self....
S3nd K3ys
SharKay wrote:
...It's content doesn't have to be proven...Everything points to the fact that it is Factual.

We don't have to prove its authenticity or weather it is factual. It speaks for it's self....


And since it speaks for itself, it is fact? Rolling Eyes

Maybe it's the new math, but I don't understand how that works. You're taking it on 'faith' that it's all true.
SharKay
I've never been to California, but I believe it is there.

When man has failed you for so many years and your backed up against the wall and no where to turn you, reach out and touch and unseen force for guidence and direction.

Natural man can not understand this faith that we poses, because it lives with in us. All I know is at the weakest point in my life I reached out and excepted what was offered to me. I had nothing to lose, but I gained everything. And that was many many years ago.

Faith is the substance (confident assurance) of things hoped for and the evidence of things not yet seen.

Sorta like when your a little child and your birthday is apporaching, your excited and anxious. You know you will get gifts, and other special things and it would be all a surprise. Assurance and anticipatation, so is how faith works.
The beginning point of Faith is believeing in God's character, and the end point is believeing in God's promises.
S3nd K3ys
SharKay wrote:
I've never been to California, but I believe it is there.

When man has failed you for so many years and your backed up against the wall and no where to turn you, reach out and touch and unseen force for guidence and direction.

Natural man can not understand this faith that we poses, because it lives with in us. All I know is at the weakest point in my life I reached out and excepted what was offered to me. I had nothing to lose, but I gained everything. And that was many many years ago.

Faith is the substance (confident assurance) of things hoped for and the evidence of things not yet seen.

Sorta like when your a little child and your birthday is apporaching, your excited and anxious. You know you will get gifts, and other special things and it would be all a surprise. Assurance and anticipatation, so is how faith works.
The beginning point of Faith is believeing in God's character, and the end point is believeing in God's promises.


Oh.

I'm not sure how that is supposde to convince me that everything in those books are fact when you said yourself it's a matter of faith.

You've justified your opinions on this, but have not proven anything except for YOUR faith in them.
SharKay
I would ask you...Do you believe in God?

As I stated the beginning point of Faith/believeing in the Bible...is believeing in God.

Have I seen manuscrips of the writings, have I seen the dead sea scrolls, No I haven't
S3nd K3ys
SharKay wrote:
I would ask you...Do you believe in God?

As I stated the beginning point of Faith/believeing in the Bible...is believeing in God.

Have I seen manuscrips of the writings, have I seen the dead sea scrolls, No I haven't


Yes I do believe in a God. What's that got to do with it?
shr3dd
Sharkay, you missed one of S3nd K3ys' excellent points. The Bible exists, and is in your opinion fact. The Qur'an and other "holy" books exists, and to the followers of the specific religion, those books are considered factual. Nevermind if the two books contradict each other in any way, two different people see them as fact and therefore believe them. Fact by definition is something uncontradictable, and therefore unapposed.

We live on Earth, that is fact, no one (in their right mind) will debate that.

Lots of people debate the genuinity of the information in several "holy" books.
Who is to say you're right? Who is to say any muslim is right? Who the hell are you to tout your "holy" book as stone cold fact?

I do not believe in any god. I am my own higher power and I am quite spiritual. I don't have any clue what happens after we die, and I make no assumption. I have studied every major religion and have learned concepts and morals from all of them.

SharKay wrote:
Sorta like when your a little child and your birthday is apporaching, your excited and anxious. You know you will get gifts, and other special things and it would be all a surprise. Assurance and anticipatation, so is how faith works.
The beginning point of Faith is believeing in God's character, and the end point is believeing in God's promises.


It is an undisputable fact that you were born on a specific day. You have no such fact that a god even exists, much less made YOU any kind of promise.
SharKay
Quote:
You mean that book that was written long ago by many people? That's fact? It's existance IS fact. What it says is NOT. (Some is provable, but mostly not).


I'm sorry I must have missed something. Above you state that " what it says is NOT. ( Some is provable but mostly not).

I asked you if you believed in God..only because/ for me, believeing in God and believeing the Bible go together.

So in believeing in God...I believe Him to be the creator thus I believe Genesis 1: 1&2...

We will never know everything...
S3nd K3ys
SharKay wrote:


I'm sorry I must have missed something.


You stated that the bible is a book full of FACTS.

SharKay wrote:
...

There is one fact that you can not disprove and that is for years people have tryed and tryed to disprove the Bible and it still stands firm and strong.....


And I corrected you.
ocalhoun
Hitler only used some aspects of christianity to depricidate the image of the Jewish people in Germany. The story of Christ's Crucifiction was described by him as a wonderfull tool.
illini319
atomictoyz wrote:
From purely a scientific position, if it cannot be explained via mathmatical expression than it does not exist. Based Upon Poppers criteria. While scientists over the last few generations have revised definitions to make ideas more plausible it does not indeed make them fact or scientific.


Several aspects of your statement confuse me. However first things first. Let ME review a few contentions...
At its most distilled level, Karl Popper's criteria assert that what separates science from non-science is falsifiability; i.e. the ability to empirically test a claim and disprove it, as one can never prove anything. It does not make any claim on existence; it creates guidelines of how one should conduct the search for (the) existence (of something). Based on your logic (not Popper's) if one cannot explain something by mathematics, then it cannot exist. By my accounts, physicists have yet to mathematically explain how a bumblebee flies... yet it does. Would you refute its existence?

Second, intelligence IS quantifiable. As intelligence is purely a semantic, science has had to define what constitutes as intelligence. Armed with the criteria of intelligence, scientists then measure (whatever beings they deem to measure). IF they find a being which clearly bears intelligence, but does NOT fit their original list of criteria of intelligence, then they have a choice. Either retract all their earlier observations of intelligence, OR redefine their list to include (or exclude) criteria based on the new evidence. Which brings me to my last point.

atomictoyz wrote:
While scientists over the last few generations have revised definitions to make ideas more plausible it does not indeed make them fact or scientific.


Science IS a process of clarification. Science recognizes that through constant testing can one approach increased precision and accuracy. No theory will ever be proven, as theories (acc. to Popper) can only be disproven -- modus tolens. To clarify your last statement: Scentists, over the last few generations, have revised definitions to make ideas more plausible; it does not indeed make them fact but it most assuredly makes the pursuit scientific.


atomictoyz wrote:
Nice twist on a theme. Existentiality and Purpose being one in the same maybe? Just because you exist and do something other than nothing happens does not imply purpose.


Nice twist yourself. By the very same token as your logic: just because you do not know its purpose, it does not mean that it has no purpose. Having said that, I think we would all agree that every organism on this planet is considered to be 'living' because of its ability to reproduce (sexual or otherwise). Couldn't the purpose of an organism be only to reproduce as a means of maintaining existence?

atomictoyz wrote:
The trouble is the only way to determine whether religion is the cause is to remove it and see if the same thing happens without out it. Without an A/B comparison you cannot derive a root cause.
...
People are the problem.


I wholeheartedly agree. If one could eliminate religion and determine if man would conduct itself differently, then we would be able to directly assess its role in human strife. As such an endeavour is highly improbable, this strategy would not be a testable one... Hence it would NOT be the most scientific method after all (at least acc. to our friend Karl Razz ). But in all seriousness, I agree. I do not believe religion has ever been directly to blame. After all religion (i.e. the spiritual philosophy by which we conduct our lives) does not exist anywhere but in our minds. We have no one to blame but ourselves.
illini319
SharKay wrote:
I've never been to California, but I believe it is there.


I can take a picture of California and send it to you, if you like.
Or, if you prefer, I could send you any item that exists in California (within reason... don't ask me to send you the Govern-ator) to prove that California exists.

Do you have a photo of God Him(Her)self? No painting, no rendition, no words. I mean a photo; a physical capture of existence.

Believing in California does not use the same belief structure as believing in God. You believe California exists because of a plethora of incongrous, independent, and numerous pieces of PHYSICAL evidence. If you really wanted to, you could fly to that land, lie on the ground and hug the earth that is California. You believe in God based on a completely different level. The two are mutually exclusive and one cannot be used to argue the validity of the other.
SharKay
Believe, Think, and Feel what ever you like.
I don't have to see God to believe in Him. But then again I do see God...I see Him in many things....

It's one thing to study religons/ with your mind...but it's another thing to to study it and apply it to your heart.

The Bible is the infaliable word of God.

If it were not true people would not try so hard to disprove it....and that speaks for itself. If God didn't offend...no one would care...If the name Jesus didn't offend...no one would care...If the Bible were just a mere book...no one would care....If the ten commandments were not from the Bible no one would care...and If the Cross ment nothing ...No one would care...but It all means something so everyone wants it taken out of sight... out of minds...They don't want to hear it...or see it...

But you can't change the fact that one day all will be judged....
illini319
SharKay wrote:
Believe, Think, and Feel what ever you like.
...
But you can't change the fact that one day all will be judged....


Perhaps I was not being clear enough. Not once did I say what I personally believed. Not once did I judge you because you believe in a God. All I was pointing out was the flaw in your logic. No judgement was passed by me. I think that all S3nd K3ys was trying to do was the same thing. And, you are right. You do not have to see something to believe in it. BUT, as I said, if you choose to believe in something without having seen it , then your belief structure is not based on irrefutable evidence; it is based on faith. Faith requires no proof. Faith does not need to be infallible; nor does it need a book to create it.
Do not presume to know me from a forum. Do not think me (or anyone else) as less than those who believe and write such condescension as that 'someday all will be judged.' Do you know if I believe in God? Are you God? Why are you doing the judging then?
SharKay
Quote:
[/Do not think me (or anyone else) as less than those who believe and write such condescension as that 'someday all will be judged.' Do you know if I believe in God? Are you God? Why are you doing the judging then?


You know then by how they act and speak..I expected a response like that. I did not judge you or any one else..I gave my views and my thoughts...If it offended ....I can not appolize for that....Offending someone was not my goal...but sharing my views and my experiences and my knowledge is all I intended. But I will not appolize for sharing the Word/What the Bible says...We still have that right in this country.

Quote:
Do not presume to know me from a forum.]


That statement is imature...and is used far to many times in fourms.

Don't persieve to belittle my posting or put words in it that are not there
I did not judge you or anyone else...you judged yourself. I expected a response as such, because the natural man can not recieve the things of the spirit. I can not judge anyone...but I can judge their words and actions.

Quote:
All I was pointing out was the flaw in your logic.


I don't live by logic...I don't have to prove anything....the flaw lies elsewhere.

My whole point was that just because smoeone says they study the Bible, they believe in God, or say they are a Christian does not mean they are or that they have are a knowledge of the Bible. You know them by how they act and talk.
When someone says they are going to kill for their god, you have to ask yourself what god are they serving. Is it the God of the Heavens/or creator, or the god/satan of this earthly wordl.
That and that alone was my whole point....

The deeper things of the Bible are reavled to us by the indwelling Spirit.

Faith is the substance of things hope for and the evidence of things not seen....
S3nd K3ys
SharKay wrote:
...
But you can't change the fact that one day all will be judged........



SharKay wrote:
...I gave my views and my thoughts....


No. You AGAIN are trying to imply that what's written in the bible or believed by it's followers is FACT when it's clearly NOT.

How the hell do you KNOW we will be judged?
atomictoyz
[quote="illini319"]
atomictoyz wrote:
But in all seriousness, I agree. I do not believe religion has ever been directly to blame. After all religion (i.e. the spiritual philosophy by which we conduct our lives) does not exist anywhere but in our minds. We have no one to blame but ourselves.


Well I think were on the same page for the most part. I confuse people because I'm a non-linear left handed person. They should give classes for right handers on foreign languages...

I had a nice long post that disappeared after I got logged off by a server reset.

If religion only exists in out minds why does it change so many lives.

Using your defense of the existence of intelligence and inferences we can also argue spirituality is equally real.

Purpose is always greater than the path.

Biological reductionism is dangerous in the hands of the ignorant masses.

I am no longer a product of organized education infused with political dogma.

Genocide cannot possibly be wrong if the process is seen in nature. Broaden that idea if you like.

Science is not out to disprove anything except the competition.

If purpose is replication and genetic recombination then the purpose of non replicating organisms do have have purpose. If their purpose is population control i.e. selective extinction how does that idea come across socially and emotionally?

Since debate and conversations have not been shown to cause mutations beneficial or otherwise what exactly drives you to respond to my twisting?

Interesting.

Are you attracted to me?
Shocked

Peace,
Atomic
atomictoyz
S3nd K3ys wrote:


No. You AGAIN are trying to imply that what's written in the bible or believed by it's followers is FACT when it's clearly NOT.


Actually there is larger amount of data coming out to support some of the bibles claims. A lot of that will not be disseminated through Fox News or any other news agency even though there have been a few specials. Most of the claims on no facts were based upon books written in the 1800's by bible critics. Go to the library and investigate whether Im telling the truth.



S3nd K3ys wrote:


How the hell do you KNOW we will be judged?
If your absolutely sure the bible is rubbish then what does it matter? Why get excited about something that will never happen? Green vs Red. Chevy vs Ford. Kinda pointless if the in the end it doesn't matter.

But if you enjoy abuse and arguing as a sport then hop on the hamster wheel and get going.

Peace,
Dennis
S3nd K3ys
atomictoyz wrote:
...If your absolutely sure the bible is rubbish then what does it matter? ...


Reading and comprehension is key.

I'm not saying it's rubbish, I'm saying it can't be proven.

Why are so many having such a hard time accepting the the fact that the bible is largly based on faith and NOT fact??
shr3dd
It's because so many view their faith as fact and anything that says otherwise is rediculus.
Keep in mind here people, S3nd K3ys is NOT saying your faith is based on lies. He and I are simply stating that these "holy" books are based on stories passed through generations. Also, that most of the contents cannot be proven as fact.
SharKay
Quote:
Also, that most of the contents cannot be proven as fact.


Well at least you didn't say All of the content cannot be proven as fact.
But I think if you took the time you would see that more of it is factual than you want to admit.

I don't have to defend,debate or prove the Bible..it's held up for a long long time. And that is the proof.

And again I did not judge....The Word judges....

And He said, " Yes go, But tell my people this: "You will hear my words, but you will not understand. You will see what I do, but you will not perceieve its meaning" Is. 6:9

For as it is written: " As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." Romans 14:11

I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne, And the books were opened, including The Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to the things written in the books, according to what they had done. Revelation 20:12

If it is false I've lost nothing, BUT if it is truth I have gained everything.

Ask yourself ...what do you want, Do I want to loose it all or Do I want to gain it all. Then check it out for yourself.
S3nd K3ys
SharKay wrote:
...

I don't have to defend,debate or prove the Bible..it's held up for a long long time. And that is the proof.
....


But you ARE defending, debating and trying to pro...well, you're not trying to prove it, you're trying to convince me it's all true WITHOUT proof.

And that is the proof of what? That it's true? Or that it's just good advertising?? Wink
shr3dd
SharKay, I was once a devout Christian (Evangelical) and I have read a lot of the Bible, so don't quote scripture to me. Not once have I said that anything in the Bible was false, nor did I imply it. I have only said one should not take it as fact. Some things have been proven, some things in the Qur'an have been proven, some things in the Torah have been proven.

Islam states than any other diety besides Allah is not worthy of worship. Yet some parts of the Bible are proven fact. Do you get the conflict here? So for the Qur'an to state that any other god, though the "word of God" (Bible) contains proven facts, is not worthy, this creates overlap. The overlap is where people come in conflict and start killing each other. The people that commit these killings under a religious banner are also those who take their holy book to be undisputed fact. I'm not saying all the people who see a holy book as completely factual kill people. Research the Crusades.


Funny how there wasn't one Crusade until the founding of Islam. Religion of peace!

Now, now, I know someone will get mad at me for saying that, but I'm not calling every Muslim violent. I was stating that the First Crusade was different groups trying to protect themselves and combat Muslim invasions and raids. Also, it was an example of how radical Christians once used the same penchant, ("convert or die", now abandoned by most Christians and radical muslims use today), against the Jews and Muslims.
illini319
atomictoyz wrote:
Well I think were on the same page for the most part. I confuse people because I'm a non-linear left handed person. They should give classes for right handers on foreign languages...


I too am left-handed... and most people also do not understand my stance Laughing


atomictoyz wrote:
If religion only exists in out minds why does it change so many lives.

Using your defense of the existence of intelligence and inferences we can also argue spirituality is equally real.


I absolutely agree. Spirituality must be real. If we consider that spirituality is an emotion (there are many parallels between these two, I believe), then spirituality must be an intrinsic part of our being. As no two people love the same way, no two people have the same spirituality. Either way, it would follow that spirituality, like love, is an equally real sense of being.


atomictoyz wrote:
Purpose is always greater than the path.


Agreed; since 'the path' must contend with reality whereas purpose is an idealogy.

atomictoyz wrote:
Genocide cannot possibly be wrong if the process is seen in nature. Broaden that idea if you like.


While many may see this and gasp... I also agree. Genocide (or whatever you wanna call it) can be seen, in many forms, throughout the natural world. Right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder. Humans commit genocide at a daily level! We cannot ask S. aureus (or plug in your favorite pathological organism here!) whether they feel in the wrong because we believe they don't belong in the world. Their way of reacting, of course, is to mutate and render themselves resistant... and the process begins anew. Genocide is nature.

atomictoyz wrote:
Science is not out to disprove anything except the competition.

Laughing Laughing I can only shamefully agree about the reality of this one. Although I would suggest that, as in religion, science is not directly to blame but rather the people who are woefully misguided.

atomictoyz wrote:
If purpose is replication and genetic recombination then the purpose of non replicating organisms do have have purpose. If their purpose is population control i.e. selective extinction how does that idea come across socially and emotionally?


Quite a controversial subject. I'm not really sure we can open this beehive at such a late thread... perhaps open a new one! But it certainly is an interesting idea. If we define purpose as one thing, and there are those who are an exception to this rule... then is our definition inaccurate or are the exceptions a genetic dead-end... and thus begins the controversy Question

atomictoyz wrote:
Since debate and conversations have not been shown to cause mutations beneficial or otherwise what exactly drives you to respond to my twisting?

Interesting.

Are you attracted to me?
Shocked


A good debate is always attractive. You can interpret this in many ways, I'd imagine! But who's to say that physical qualities are the only things selected for! I most certainly believe that humans are the living product of intelligence being selected for as a propagatable trait.
illini319
shr3dd wrote:
The people that commit these killings under a religious banner are also those who take their holy book to be undisputed fact. I'm not saying all the people who see a holy book as completely factual kill people. Research the Crusades.


Well said. No people of faith, in the history of religion, has ever been immune to those who abuse their faith for ulterior gain.

SharKay wrote:
When someone says they are going to kill for their god, you have to ask yourself what god are they serving. Is it the God of the Heavens/or creator, or the god/satan of this earthly wordl.


Christianity has certainly had its torrid past... as Shr3dd touched upon regarding the Crusades. Thousands of christian soldiers killed and was killed for their religion, by direct order from the pope. I ask you, which God did they serve?
shr3dd
illini319, I am glad someone could see the point. To answer your question of which god they served, I say neither. In my opinion, their god was their own greed, their own motives. The radical Islamic terrorists have an agenda to kill everyone who will not convert to Islam. They have their agenda. In the past, Hitler had his agenda, we all know what happened there. Further in the past, the Catholic church had an agenda of their own. Religion in my eyes should be something you practice yourself, without an agenda. This is why I have utter contempt for organized religion, too many social/political agendas. I much prefer spirituality, something that has concern only for benefiting one own's self.
wobblez
Everybody can be a christian if he can use it....
****** Religion!!! Here i mean what religion has become is ****** up now...
****** Capitalism!!!
****** Hitler!!!
shr3dd
say what?
S3nd K3ys
shr3dd wrote:
say what?


"what"

Laughing












Seriously, sounds like he's been duped by religion?
shr3dd
I don't understand what he's trying to say. I understand the first sentence but what is the importance of the second part?
S3nd K3ys
shr3dd wrote:
I don't understand what he's trying to say. I understand the first sentence but what is the importance of the second part?


Quote:
**** Religion!!! Here i mean what religion has become is ****** up now...
**** Capitalism!!!
**** Hitler!!!


Nothing except to show his feelings for the Hitler and religion. (Not sure why Capitalism is in there, though)
gvaldez520
The only thing i have seen is hilter being compared as an antichrist figure. Twisted Evil
Ressurrector
Who knows and who cares. Bush is a christian and look what all that got us.
illini319
Agreed. Idealogy is a scary thing. It is a fine line between being called a leader with vision, or a fanatic with agenda.
xalophus
SharKay wrote:
Believe, Think, and Feel what ever you like.

I guess we ought to take that statement of liberty with a pinch of salt -
SharKay wrote:
The Bible is the infaliable word of God.
SharKay wrote:
But you can't change the fact that one day all will be judged....


Oh by the way, did you say that the judgement day is an undeniable FACT ???
As long as you don't follow any logic for deriving upon that conclusion, I'm afraid, it remains your belief rather than a fact.
And yes, I can't change the fact that you believe that one day all will be judged.

SharKay wrote:
If it were not true people would not try so hard to disprove it....and that speaks for itself.

and if it were all true, we wouldn't be forced to.
what kind of reasoning is that ?
Everything that faces opposition is true ?
Extending this further, the fact that you are having to try so hard to try to "prove" it, makes it untrue !

SharKay wrote:
If God didn't offend...no one would care...If the name Jesus didn't offend...no one would care...If the Bible were just a mere book...no one would care....If the ten commandments were not from the Bible no one would care...and If the Cross ment nothing ...No one would care...but It all means something so everyone wants it taken out of sight... out of minds...They don't want to hear it...or see it...

Very true indeed.
God does offend.
The other man's God.
God offends some people, so does Allah.
Bible means a lot more than a mere book to some people, so does the Koran.


The religions of this world can be broadly classified into two kind -
The ones that believe in a personal God or a divine being and the ones that do not. (I might not have been able to put that in precise words, but you know what I mean)

Christianity & Islam are two of the first kind.
These religions have another thing in common, that is scriptures which talk about the idea of the above personal divine being.
And these scriptures "subtly" promote the notion that those who are not following it are not equal and deserve to be dealt with.

Few examples of the other kind of religions are Hinduism in its original pure form (not today's fashionable "hare krishna" fad), Buddhism, the traditional religions of China etc

How many people of either of these kinds of religious faiths have nurtured hatred, fought wars, died or killed in the name of God ?
The first kind - numerous, the other ? probably none to speak of.

What drives the people of God to wage wars, and what helps the non-believers of God to co-exist peacefully? Anything but God ?

I'm not saying that one of these religions is better than the other,
I'm merely pointing out that -
God does create the conflict.
God does offend.

To quote a few religious scriptures -
Bible -
Deuteronomy 7:1 wrote:
For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire


Koran -
Surah 9:123, Surah 9:29, Surah 8:39, Surah 9:14 wrote:
fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness. Fight those who do not believe in Allah and fight them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah. Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace
mydo
I believe he might have been chrisitian, although he did kill many jews.

He sicks, is a crazy.
dan751
Impossible, or rather, it's probably an impossibility.
Reason: Jewish was the very race he was trying to wipe from the earth (genocide), they were of the original Christain faith. He therefore would be trying to wipe out his christian brothers and sisters. Now, does that sound like a christian act?? Not to me it doesn't.Wink
igor123d
When one considers wheter Hitler was a Christian or not, one must analyze the ideology he pertained to. He was a fascist, an ideology that incorporated numerous areguments proposed by Nietzche. He stated that Christianity is a weapon the Jews used to punish Christians through trans-valuation. Hitler tolerated Christianity as a means of retaining the social backbone of his society but probably was not a pious member of the faith.
SunburnedCactus
I thought it had something to do with him catching syphilis from a Jewish prostitute?
igor123d
I do not believe that Hitler had syphilis nor can I understand the connection with the Jewish prostitute. It is probably an urban legend that people propagated, however I doubt that it has any level of veracity.
damj
It doesn't matter ... the man was INSANE ... let's not lose the forest for the trees folks!
SharKay
and if it were all true, we wouldn't be forced to.

Do you feel forced?


what kind of reasoning is that ?

The kind of reasoning you don't understand and have no concept of....Those in the natural can not understand the things of the spirit.

Extending this further, the fact that you are having to try so hard to try to "prove" it, makes it untrue !

Silly me...I thought I was doing just as the rest of you...stating my thoughts...

Gods word never goes out void...it always accomplises what it is set out to do...to convict....and to admonish
dogrose
TO GERMAN £¬HE MAYBE IS £‘
shaggly
atomictoyz wrote:
He tolerated only the "Catholic Church" only because he knew that the political power had the ability to stop him at will.


I did extensive study on the rise and fall of the 3rd Reich as part of my history courses way back in the day when I was at school.

As far as I remember, Hitler was raised as a Catholic, and maintained some level of those beliefs until around the time of the Munich Beer Hall events. Obviously, I think that the determination of him being a Christian in the perceptive sense of the word is somewhat dodgy, to say the least.

However, I think that he believed himself to be a somewhat religious man, even though others (quite rightly imho) thought him completely insane. It's normally those extremists and zealots that always perceive what they're doing to be in the cause of a higher power, that believe themselves to be purists of one form or another, and unfortunately a high percentage of zealots/purists normally use religion as their own justification for their actions.
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