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Pope's address catholisism and child porn





yagnyavalkya
I just read that the Pope said "“In the 1970s, paedophilia was theorised as something fully in conformity with man and even with children,”

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/popersquos-child-porn-normal-claim-sparks-outrage-among-victims-15035449.html#ixzz1A3nEHUeO
He has also said that "paedophilia was "theorised as something fully in conformity" in the 1970s "
Pope Benedict's claim yesterday that paedophilia wasn't considered an “absolute evil” as recently as the 1970s

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/popersquos-child-porn-normal-claim-sparks-outrage-among-victims-15035449.html#ixzz1A3nawcXK
I dont really understand this what was the church's view on Child porn in history
Is there a theological angle here
Bikerman
He is deflecting the blame, that's all. He is trying to say that the root cause is society, rather than the Church, because society did not define paedophilia as wrong, in the 70s - therefore it is both unsurprising that Priests got away with it and not entirely the fault of the Church.
There is, as usual, a kernel of truth in what he says - he simply generalises it to suit his purpose. There WAS a movement in Germany in the 1970s which sought to redefine sex between children and adults as 'natural'. It was called the kinderladen movement and was a reaction to the Kindergarten movement.
yagnyavalkya
Bikerman wrote:
He is deflecting the blame, that's all. He is trying to say that the root cause is society, rather than the Church, because society did not define paedophilia as wrong, in the 70s - therefore it is both unsurprising that Priests got away with it and not entirely the fault of the Church.
There is, as usual, a kernel of truth in what he says - he simply generalises it to suit his purpose. There WAS a movement in Germany in the 1970s which sought to redefine sex between children and adults as 'natural'. It was called the kinderladen movement and was a reaction to the Kindergarten movement.

Kernel of truth?
Are you sure that society did not define paedophilia as wrong, in the 70s a movement does not speak for the society
Actually how many devote Christians in the 70s held the view that paedophilia is OK
Pope a representative of a major religion followed all around the world cannot make justification based on a movement in Germany
Sinead O’Connor has asked these questions
Exactly who held the theory that pedophilia was fully in conformity with man and with children? Please give us their names.
I mean if there was a movement is it true that the society supported paedophilia
Exactly when did they hold this theory? Exactly when if ever did they cease holding the theory?

Why was this information not given to victims?

Why was it never given to any commissions of enquiry or civil authorities?
Bikerman
Well, it is not my normal role to defend the Pope, but I must speak truth as I see it.
There were several left-wing movements to reduce the age of consent to 14 and decriminalise sex between minors and adults back in the 1970s.
In the US The North American Man-Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) were fully paid up members of the International Lesbian and Gay Association -- right up until 1993.
In the UK a group called the Paedophile Information Exchange was a member of the British Council for Civil Liberties in the 1970s.
Indi
i would hardly call acknowledging the existing of paedophile organizations "defending" the Pope, because the Pope didn't just say they existed, he said they represented a general social trend. That's a stupid as saying that because the Flat Earth Society came into existence in 1956 and got a lot of press at the time, that that represents a growth trend in Flat Earth belief in the last 50 years. The Pope is still an idiot, he's just an idiot that happened to find a fact that he thought worked in his favour, rather like the proverbial broken clock that is still right twice a day.

The whole speech was one of those "it's so bad it has to be a joke" things that, sadly, turned out to be true. There's no way a rational person can think anything of the Pope on hearing his argument, except that he's a complete idiot. Look at it any way you like:

The factual failing

It's just not true. The Pope is not speaking about reality as any sane person can see it. There is no social acceptance of child sex, and, in fact, there is less acceptance of it than there was in the past, when it was customary to marry girls off at 12 and 13.

The moral leadership failing

If we assume for a moment that the Pope's facts are correct (*snerk*), and that there is a growing social tolerance of child rape (*eyeroll*), there seems to be a crucial little fact that Old Joe has forgotten. It's the ****** Catholic Church. Even if society were going to hell in a handbasket around him, the church - per its own claims - is suppose to be a beacon of moral guidance. These people have no trouble loudly condemning homosexuals in the face of a society that is fast growing more and more indifferent to that form of bigotry, and gleefully excommunicate nuns that even just sanction abortions that have been deemed life-saving while society in general supports such actions, but yet when dealing with child rape in their own midst they suddenly turned meek and quiet and devoted their efforts to covering things up rather than boldly decrying the immorality.

Wut?

Let me say that again to hammer home just how messed up the Catholic Church and the Pope is with respect to this whole affair:

If we grant the Pope's claim that society has become more tolerant of child rape - which was what encouraged a few bad priests to do it - and if we ignore the looooooong-running history of the Catholic Church in this regard - the Pope still has to explain why he and his organization had no qualms about publicly decrying, shaming and punishing members of its clergy that were either gay or that performed (or even just sanctioned!) abortions... yet covered up systematic and serial child rape cases for decades (which were only discovered in spite of the Church, not because of it).

The false problem failing

Finally, a simple logical point to show just how loopy the whole claim is. Again assume that society is, as the Pope claims, more tolerant of child rape than they were in the past. If that's true... ... ... ... ... then why is this a scandal?

Follow? According to Pope logic, he and his organization are moral heroes, and they believe child rape is wrong... it's us - the secular outside world - who are the villains, because we tolerate child rape. But if that were true, then why are we so angered by the fact that they're covering up the child rapes? If we're more tolerant of child rape than the Church, they should be more upset about the child rape scandal than we are. But if that were true... then why is the Pope defending the Church against our outrage?!?

Pop goes the logic.
menino
I find your insight into this quite intriguing, Indi.
Made a good read, and gave some thought into it as well.

thanks.
yagnyavalkya
Indi wrote:
i would hardly call acknowledging the existing of paedophile organizations "defending" the Pope, because the Pope didn't just say they existed, he said they represented a general social trend. That's a stupid as saying that because the Flat Earth Society came into existence in 1956 and got a lot of press at the time, that that represents a growth trend in Flat Earth belief in the last 50 years. The Pope is still an idiot, he's just an idiot that happened to find a fact that he thought worked in his favour, rather like the proverbial broken clock that is still right twice a day.

The whole speech was one of those "it's so bad it has to be a joke" things that, sadly, turned out to be true. There's no way a rational person can think anything of the Pope on hearing his argument, except that he's a complete idiot. Look at it any way you like:

The factual failing

It's just not true. The Pope is not speaking about reality as any sane person can see it. There is no social acceptance of child sex, and, in fact, there is less acceptance of it than there was in the past, when it was customary to marry girls off at 12 and 13.

The moral leadership failing

If we assume for a moment that the Pope's facts are correct (*snerk*), and that there is a growing social tolerance of child rape (*eyeroll*), there seems to be a crucial little fact that Old Joe has forgotten. It's the ****** Catholic Church. Even if society were going to hell in a handbasket around him, the church - per its own claims - is suppose to be a beacon of moral guidance. These people have no trouble loudly condemning homosexuals in the face of a society that is fast growing more and more indifferent to that form of bigotry, and gleefully excommunicate nuns that even just sanction abortions that have been deemed life-saving while society in general supports such actions, but yet when dealing with child rape in their own midst they suddenly turned meek and quiet and devoted their efforts to covering things up rather than boldly decrying the immorality.

Wut?

Let me say that again to hammer home just how messed up the Catholic Church and the Pope is with respect to this whole affair:

If we grant the Pope's claim that society has become more tolerant of child rape - which was what encouraged a few bad priests to do it - and if we ignore the looooooong-running history of the Catholic Church in this regard - the Pope still has to explain why he and his organization had no qualms about publicly decrying, shaming and punishing members of its clergy that were either gay or that performed (or even just sanctioned!) abortions... yet covered up systematic and serial child rape cases for decades (which were only discovered in spite of the Church, not because of it).

The false problem failing

Finally, a simple logical point to show just how loopy the whole claim is. Again assume that society is, as the Pope claims, more tolerant of child rape than they were in the past. If that's true... ... ... ... ... then why is this a scandal?

Follow? According to Pope logic, he and his organization are moral heroes, and they believe child rape is wrong... it's us - the secular outside world - who are the villains, because we tolerate child rape. But if that were true, then why are we so angered by the fact that they're covering up the child rapes? If we're more tolerant of child rape than the Church, they should be more upset about the child rape scandal than we are. But if that were true... then why is the Pope defending the Church against our outrage?!?

Pop goes the logic.

I agree with the post couldnt have put it better!
Bikerman
Yes, I pretty much agree with everything Indi said there.
As I said, it's not my role (or inclination) to defend the Pope.
If I reflect on social trend in my lifetimes (since the 60s) then I would say that what has actually happened is that there is now a greater willingness to address the issue. A certain level of paedophile abuse has always been present and, like now, much of it is actually family based. It was a subject that was not discussed in the 70s, largely because there was a general reluctance by the state to involve itself in 'private' family matters. As civil and personal liberties became more prominent issues, from the 70s onwards, the rights of children also began to appear on the social radar.

This had unfortunate consequences in the late 80s and 90s (particularly in the UK and US) when there was a moral panic about 'ritual satanic child abuse' - largely driven by various Christian fundamentalist Churches, but aided and abetted by 'psychologists' using dodgy psychological procedures to recover 'hidden memories' from thousands of so called 'victims'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse

The Pope, of course, doesn't talk about his role in ramping-up this panic. Even as recently as 2007 he was talking-up the issue.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504969/Popes-exorcist-squads-wage-war-Satan.html
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