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Seems like a pretty rotten thing to do, especially with Christmas just around the corner, but I guess anti-Christian bigotry and intolerance is alive and well. I just don’t know why some people are so full of negativity and hate that they will cut down a tree just to bring pain onto others. I hope the authorities find these vandals, but I’m not sure what criminal punishment they should receive or restitution they could offer.
| Quote: | Christian Landmark Tree Cut Down In U.K.
Legend has it that the rare thorn tree on a hill in southern England had ties to the earliest days of Christianity, and pilgrims often left offerings at its base. In more recent times, local children honored its current incarnation each year by cutting sprigs to place on Queen Elizabeth II's Christmas dining table.
Now British police want to know who sawed the limbs off the Glastonbury Holy Thorn Tree, reducing it to a stump. And they want to know why.
"I've just driven past the site, and people are coming out in tears," said Glastonbury Mayor John Coles. "I've never seen a sadder sight, or a more serious act of vandalism, in my 60 years in Glastonbury."
Glastonbury, 125 miles west of London, is best known for its annual rock music festival, which has drawn artists such as Bruce Springsteen since the 1960s. Its mysterious landscape — including the Glastonbury Tor hill, which is believed by some to have magical qualities — has drawn pagan worshippers for many years.
Katherine Gorbing, the director of Glastonbury Abbey, said the tree originally came from the Middle East and is a type of thorn tree common in Lebanon as well as in Europe. It typically lives about 100 years, but Gorbing said locals have kept Glastonbury Holy Thorn Tree going by taking grafts and clippings from it to plant new trees when the existing one neared the end of its natural life.
"It's a sacred tree," she said. "Not only for the Christian church, but for many other people."
The tree itself, located near the summit of Wearyall Hill, is visible from many parts of rural Somerset.
Coles said the nighttime attack came between Wednesday and Thursday shortly after he, the local vicar and schoolchildren participated in the annual sprig cutting for the queen's Christmas table.
The sprig is sometimes visible during her televised Christmas broadcast to the Commonwealth — and the queen always sends a letter of thanks, he said.
Coles believes that someone who saw the sprig ceremony on local television or who witnessed it in person — decided afterward to chop down the tree, which did not have any security cameras nearby.
"It could be an anti-monarchist, an anti-Christian, or someone who's an atheist," Coles said. "We don't know whether it's one person responsible or a group."
Avon and Somerset police would not comment on the motive. No arrests have been made.
The once-proud tree provides Glastonbury believers with what legend says is a significant link to the early days of Christianity in England.
Religious tradition holds that the original tree was planted by St. Joseph of Arimathea — the wealthy merchant who volunteered his prepared tomb to Jesus — after he first made landfall in England some 2,000 years ago. The chopped-down tree is thought to be descended from the original. It blooms twice a year — during the Christmas season and again around Easter.
"The story goes that Joseph of Arimathea pushed his staff into the ground and pronounced it to be weary — that's why it's known as Wearyall Hill," Coles said. "The tree is said to have grown from the staff. It's something you can't prove or disprove."
Some people believe the growth of the wooden staff into the tree was a full-fledged miracle, while others believe it was left standing in a boggy area for months and eventually sprouted, said Susan Strong, an education officer at Glastonbury Abbey.
"You can take the miraculous approach or the pragmatic approach," she said.
Local historians said the tree — or one of its ancestors — has been chopped down at least once before, by a soldier using an ax during the 1642-51 English Civil Wars.
Experts say the tree could recover in about 10 years if it was in good health at the time of the attack.
"It will obviously be deformed, but it will put grafts out next spring," said Tony Kirkham, head of the arboretum at the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew. "But it will take a long time to make a good tree."
Even with that hope, Gorbing called the loss of the tree devastating.
"The tree unites everybody in the town," she said. "It's a symbol worldwide. Local people do see this as an attack on Glastonbury." |
Source = http://www.npr.org/2010/12/10/131978052/famous-christian-landmark-tree-cut-down-in-u-k
Interesting article jmi, however as far as I can see the verdict is still out on who has been responsible for the ugly deed, especially at this time of the year as well. I would not be surprised if it could have been Christians too. There could have been Christians who didn't like the idea of symbols as they could have equated the ceremony with the Catholic religion or being non-Christian. There could also have been Christians who were trying to get sympathy for Christianity by making it look as though atheists have done it. The article also thought there was the possibility of anti-Monarchists as well. And who knows, maybe it could have been as simple as fun seekers who dared each other to do it. Fact however remains that it was a destructive deed. Hope they can apprehend the perpetrator/s. When they do, it would be quite interesting to see under which laws they will be charged. Is there a law in the UK against cutting down sacred trees?
| deanhills wrote: | | Interesting article jmi, however as far as I can see the verdict is still out on who has been responsible for the ugly deed, especially at this time of the year as well. I would not be surprised if it could have been Christians too. There could have been Christians who don't like the idea of symbols as they could have equated it with the Catholic religion. There could also have been Christians who were trying to get sympathy for Christianity by making it look as though atheists have done it. The article also thought there was the possibility of anti-Monarchy as well. And who knows, maybe it could have been fun seekers who dared each other to do it. Fact however remains that it was a destructive deed Hope they can apprehend the perpetrator. When they do, it would be quite interesting to see under which laws he/she will be charged. Is there a law in the UK against cutting down sacred trees? |
Yes, those are all possibilities, but whether it be from an atheist, Christian from another denomination, anti-monarchist, etc., it is still an attack on a religious symbol, and as you pointed out an ugly deed. Given the general anti-Christian mood and attacks that abound, I am inclined to think it falls along those lines, but that idea may not be correct. Just my initial gut reaction.
I’m not sure if there is a specific law in the UK that would cover this, but in the US we have something called “hate crimes” that have to do with crimes committed against religions, minorities, etc. I actually disagree with the idea of ‘hate crimes’ as a concept, but if the UK has something similar I couldn’t see why the criminals wouldn’t be prosecuted under those laws.
Forget religious symbols... What about the poor tree?
If it really was chopped up just to attack a symbol, I feel very sorry for it.
I completely agree with Ocalhoun - what about the poor tree?
Apart from the tree, its also a cultural heritage as far as I can see.
It is a harmful misconduct on so many levels, not just Christianity.
But I also agree with Deanhills. It could be Christians also.
All in all, it could be done by some drunks, or someone really crazy and not-in-the-head.
| ocalhoun wrote: | Forget religious symbols... What about the poor tree?
If it really was chopped up just to attack a symbol, I feel very sorry for it. |
That is a good one Ocalhoun .....  And it appears as though it is a special tree too. It's supposed to have died after 100 years, but people have been keeping it alive all of the time. Or who knows, maybe it felt it was getting too old, like those vampires who don't like to live for too many centuries. I'm curious, I'm not much of a gardener, do you know how the people kept it going with grafts and clippings?
| ocalhoun wrote: | Forget religious symbols... What about the poor tree?
If it really was chopped up just to attack a symbol, I feel very sorry for it. |
Agreed. It’s a senseless act all around.
Edited by ocalhoun to remove troll-baiting. Suffice it to say that the answer was 'the P&R forum', and a new topic has been split off of this one (http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-121625.html), discussing this possibility.
That poor tree. I do hope that it survives! I hope they do find whoever is responsible for this terrible act. Fitting punishment: cut off their limbs? Make them stand guard over the tree until it regains it's shape?
Yea gods. What a lot of sanctimonious twaddle.
Firstly lets get a few facts straight.
a) This particular tree has bugger-all to do with Joseph of Arimathea. The ONLY link is a myth that Joseph once stood at that position, planted his staff, and it grew into a thorn tree. It is a MYTH.
b) This particular tree was planted in 1951. They planted one earlier in 1951 and it died within months so they planted this particular one to replace it. The 'original' tree of the myth was destroyed during the Civil War hundreds of years ago. And let's just be clear - there is no evidence that Joseph ever came to Britain, let alone that he performed a miracle on an exact spot in Glastonbury. It is part of a stack of myths in that region - mostly revolving around King Arthur and his mythical round table.
c) There are 'Holy Thorn' trees (Hawthorne) all over Glastonbury. If people want to believe in myths then take a cutting and plant another.
d) There is no good reason to believe that this was some attack on Christianity and every reason to think it was a revenge attack on the owner of that particular piece of land - Edward James. James was largely responsible for the collapse of the Crown Currency Exchange which went bust not long ago, owing many people millions of quid. James was arrested not long ago for his part in this, and people have made various threats about getting back at him. It looks like someone decided to chop his tree down to get at him. Big deal!
If Christians want to go around claiming Joseph was not only here in England but actually performed a miracle on a particular spot in Glastonbury - fine, let them believe what they like. If they further believe that a 60 year old tree is Holy because it was planted on a spot where this miracle is supposed to have happened then fine - let them believe that. They are even free to believe that nasty atheists are persecuting them by chopping the 'holy' tree down if they really want to.
When people start suggesting barbarity be committed on people who offend against this delusion, however, well then it has gone too far.
Aside from astonishment at the gullibility and paranoia of some people, I have to wonder at the standard of reporting in not just the British crappy tabloids, but the international papers who swallowed this story and reprinted it....
It's a rather common, ugly, tree which some people worship every year. Someone cut it down to annoy the landowner who won't now be able to charge the credulous to worship his tree. Do I care? Not in the slightest bit. Do I think it should have been cut down? I don't care enough to have an opinion. Jeez - this is barely even news, let alone a scandal, yet we get Christians, too lazy to find out some basic facts, complaining about persecution and threatening atheists because they (probably wrongly) believe the atheists cut a tree down? Persecuted? Christians? It would be funny if it wasn't sick.
Language moderated at the request of other staff
@jmi. I am completely flabbergasted with how much your OP has been taken out of context. Atheist was mentioned but once in the article that was quoted, and alongside many other possibilities including anti-monarchy. None of the other possibilities were discussed of course. I most certainly did not read anything about atheists being threatened, in fact to the contrary. The initial discussion pointed out a number of other possibilities including Christians who could have been responsible as well.
I am curious Bikerman. Who are the "[...] Christians" you are referring to? As far as I can see there has been no threatening of atheists either in the article that was quoted in the OP or the discussion that followed immediately afterwards, in fact to the contrary. There was nothing about Christians being persecuted in the article either. It was a completely objective article.
Edited to remove reference/response to insulting post. No fault of Deanhills, though it is best to not respond to inflammatory remarks. The original remarks should be removed soon (rather than now), as it is frowned upon for one moderator to edit another's posts. -ocalhoun
Back to the OP though, it was just a single tree in my opinion, not some mystical essential part of a wider spiritual plan?
When my father died some years ago I planted an acorn in his memory, this became an oak tree which was sacred to me as a place I could focus my thoughts. 3 years later though someone dug it up and stole it. Yes I was angry at the theft, yes it made me sad, but it really was 'just a tree'.
I chose to attach the personal sentiments and significance to what was in fact a beautiful young tree, but was this tree anymore special or important to the world than any other tree? No.
I got over it, planted another and moved on.
I think some of the Glasto types need to get a grip of reality sometimes. I do actually love the town of Glastonbury (It's 1 and a half hours away from me and I've been there countless times, including the annual music fest) I love the Tor, the laid back feel of the place and everything thats relaxed about it. I do get tired of some of the over the top mysticism of the place though, including the White Spring that some believe has healing powers. Glastonburys death rate is just as high as anywhere else in the UK.
*edit* ...and I always wonder why (many times in my own personal experience) i've found the folk who most vociferously champion the magical/spiritual/pseudo Christian importance of the place are always the scruffy guys living in a van, smoking lots of weed and denouncing organised society, whilst still making sure they claim all the welfare benefits the organised society provides?
You also need to factor in that this particular tree was planted relatively recently (1951) so it isn't even particularly old.
The story, as reported in the OP, gives a very misleading impression.
| Quote: | | Legend has it that the rare thorn tree on a hill in southern England had ties to the earliest days of Christianity, and pilgrims often left offerings at its base. |
What ties?
| Quote: | | It typically lives about 100 years, but Gorbing said locals have kept Glastonbury Holy Thorn Tree going by taking grafts and clippings from it to plant new trees when the existing one neared the end of its natural life. |
The 'original' Glastonbury thorn tree was destroyed by Cromwell's troops during the civil war. After that the 'Glastonbury Thorn' was planted in the grounds of the Abbey, but that tree died in 1991. This tree has nothing to do with the supposed original apart from the fact that it is said that the cutting used can be dated back to the tree destroyed in the civil war (an assertion untroubled by any actual facts). Even if that IS true, there are hundreds of other trees which were planted from the same cuttings all around the area so there is nothing special about this tree.
The incident was widely reported as an 'attack by religious fanatics on Christianity'.
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/850021-holy-thorn-tree-of-glastonbury-cut-down-in-strike-at-heart-of-christianity
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337159/Glastonburys-2000-year-old-Holy-Thorn-Tree-hacked-vandals.html
Very little mention was made of the fact that this particular tree belongs to a con-merchant who was partly responsible for many people losing millions of pounds in the Crown Currency Exchange collapse. Mr Edward James had been threatened by several people and it seems entirely likely that the people who vandalised the tree were after him, not Christians in general. This important little detail escaped most of the reporting on the matter, and it is to the credit of the Telegraph (a paper I do not normally read and of which I am no fan) that they at least reported it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/8192459/Vandals-destroy-Holy-Thorn-tree-in-Glastonbury.html
I know, it's almost painful to read/see the heartbreak some people seem to feel about this.
If a religion is as true or strong as it's believers maintain it is, then it does not need an icon or 'sign' such as the DNA of a tree being kept alive through cuttings every 100 years by human beings. The international effect of this story is also amazing to me...I just wish everyone could visit Glastonbury and make their own mind about the validity of the many 'beliefs' presented by some folk there.
Remember this is the same town who's council proclaimed some years ago would no longer remove cannabis plants illegally cultivated in their hanging baskets/planters etc - they basically 'gave up' on trying to stop the 'guerrilla planting' and chose to instead keep the 'spiritual' tourist market happy.
I asked Andy to check on the posting mentioned earlier and he did - I was wrong. Deanhills didn't post it. I apologise for the wrong attribution and apologise to Dean for my mistake - it was genuine, but wrong is wrong.
I wouldn't worry BM, remember this post of mine Question about quoting another users post, I was absolutely convinced but absolutely wrong!  We're all human.
Legend has it though that if you flagellate yourself with a freshly cut twig from the holy thorn tree of Glastonbury, then all your sins shall be forgiven 
LOL...No, I think I'll give the hair shirt and self-flagellation a miss. I do believe that people should acknowledge mistakes and, where called for, apologise for them, and I can hardly expect others to do what I don't do myself..-
As far as the OP is concerned I do have to admit that I personally wouldn't purposely trash anyones religious icon no matter how silly I might think it is.
I wouldn't actually even cut a tree unless I needed firewood or it was unsafe etc.
As Bikerman said earlier though, this is probably more to do with the crook who owns the land and the many people here in SW England (and elsewhere) who've lost thousands of pounds in his currency exchange company. The deal was that they bought the money in advance but the firm folded and everyone has now lost out. My instinct is it's less anti-religious reasoning and more about retribution.
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