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Faith in Satan





Bluedoll
I am not a Satan worshiper, nor admirer, nor give honour to, nor undo attention to but this statement about faith is only topical discussion for anyone that wishes to have discussion. I believe in the existence of Satan, as I believe in a wonderful, merciful and loving God whom I do put my complete trust in. I thought the topic having faith in Satan could possibly be thought provoking? Who can be offended by denouncing Satan’s right of *leadership? Not I, and certainly if anyone is offended, because they make alignment to Satan well, too bad it is for them.

Jesus Christ certainly will teach us and direct us in the right direction while Satan will lie, deceive and put question to our faith. It stands to reason anything other than the truth God gives is a lie and will lead us in a false direction. Any religion, group, or individual that follows even temporally the false leader Satan needs to readjust their thinking and get back on track. Fortunately, for everyone, because of freewill and because mistaken pathways in our life can be corrected we can adjust our direction and move on.

What about the bigger decisions however that the world faces? Although, we may not have a big role to play in these, there is never the less a choice the world must make. In our little day to day tasks we may leave the lights on bright or not when we do the small cleaning tasks in our homes. This might not have much of a devastating effect on the rest of the world but from a Chernobyl maintenance viewpoint, it just might?

The question regarding any world decisions is do we leave God out of the picture in everything and follow Satan? In other words can we actually have blind faith in Satan?

Satan would rather have us believe there is no God, there is no place for God in schools, governmental - decisions of any kind and that mankind can decide for itself in what is right for it and what is wrong for it. This would be putting our faith in Satan.
________________________________________

Let the discussion go where it will as a discussion about Satan without fear of any kind of unkind reprisal from me in this post or inhibited by what is allowed to be said or not said. (please keep me to this) My only request for this post is to keep it on topic. This post is about Satan and how the reconstructor is distinctive in a very specific direction.
*please make note the word used is leadership not ruler and that the name Satan is used not in reference to denote respect but to signify title and so named as a real identity.[/i]
coolclay
Interesting concept/opinion on Satan. So let me get this right I am a little confused, you're saying you believe anyone whose decision is not based upon what they think God wants them to do is automatically of Satan, there is no middle ground?
Ankhanu


I know these sorts of posts are probably frowned upon (I suppose I could go search the TOS, but, I'm willfully ignoring in this instance)... but this is exactly what came to mind when I first read the OP. (Oh, scrolling down in the reply screen, I see an edit addendum has been made, let me peruse!)

Yeah, I still don't see how the topic has anything to do with having faith in Satan, but rather about being deceived by said entity... and any belief but a belief centered around the acceptance of God is a deception. Is there any part of responding to this in anything but "yeah, that sounds pretty spot on" that isn't a trap?
liljp617
It is interesting how it's simply "too bad" for people who are offended by your denouncement of Satan, yet you throw your arms up in the air and wail when someone says anything that remotely denounces your god.

Not that I'm offended by either. More offended by the lack of consistency and blatant hypocrisy.

In other news, you basically equated atheism and/or secularism with having faith in Satan by your last sentence. Classy move. I'm an atheist, and I'm very fond of secularism, especially in relation to government (public education is an arm of government, at least how it's set up in the US). I don't believe in Satan, however. How can secularism or atheism be inherently tied to Satan as you clearly imply?
ocalhoun
liljp617 wrote:
How can secularism or atheism be inherently tied to Satan as you clearly imply?

Because Jesus said 'you're either for me or against me'.

I don't agree with it, but that is probably the logic used.
Bikerman
Satan got a bad rap. I mean, let's look at the biblical facts.
a) He rebels in Heaven - which is a pretty stupid thing to do considering he is a finite limited entity and God isn't. Therefore he is not very bright.
b) Having lost, God sets him up as the Ruler and God of Earth (Corinthians 4:4)
c) So, we poor humans are given a Lord and God called Satan. Now Satan isn;t omnipotent, to be sure, but he is pretty powerful.
d) Since God sets him up as ruler of Earth then it is clearly God's will that he rules. Therefore if we refuse to follow his rule then we are going against the will of God, as well as setting ourselves up against a hugely powerful ex-Archangel with a 'hoard of demons' at his command.
e) We learn from Job (1:6-9) that Satan can only act as God wills him to act. Therefore Satan is not only ruling with the full authority and approval of God, but every action and order is sanctioned by God.

Conclusion?
Ir seems to me, then, that the only righteous thing to do is to do exactly what Satan tells you to do, when he tells you to do it. Anything else is going against the clear will of God and must therefore be a sin.

Now, pass me a large scotch, plenty of drugs and a couple of prostitutes, I'm on a mission from God.
Bluedoll
Bikerman wrote:
Satan got a bad rap.
Satan is a bad rap. The only example I could ever agree on is when people do really lousy things and then try to put the blame on Satan when all along they were in complete control of their actions.
Bikerman wrote:
pass me a large scotch, plenty of drugs and a couple of prostitutes

These are your choices.
Bikerman wrote:
the only righteous thing to do is to do exactly what Satan tells you to do, when he tells you to do it. Anything else is going against the clear will of God
Correct but I would reword it to the alternative to following Satan is not to.
Bikerman wrote:
let's look at the biblical facts
I would never describe the bible as facts but enlightenment.
Bikerman wrote:
God sets him up as the Ruler and God of Earth (Corinthians 4:4)
God did not set Satan up. Satan sets himself up. In 2Corinthians4.4
Paul is writing to Corinthians to say that Satan will lead many away from the teachings in a way that will not make them blind to the words.
Bikerman wrote:
we poor humans are given . . aa
Everyone has a choice
Bikerman wrote:
Now Satan isn;t omnipotent, to be sure, but he is pretty powerful.
Yes
Bikerman wrote:
Since God sets him up as ruler of Earth then it is clearly God's will that he rules.
Not exactly true, Satan establishes things on his own accord and we choose whom we want to follow in terms of belief’s
Bikerman wrote:
We learn from Job (1:6-9) that Satan can only act as God wills him to act. Therefore Satan is not only ruling with the full authority and approval of God, but every action and order is sanctioned by God.
Not true. God does not bark orders. Satan has a free will to act. God has the free will to act as well.
ocalhoun wrote:
I don't believe in Satan, however. How can secularism or atheism be inherently tied to Satan as you clearly imply?
Well, perhaps secularism and atheism are two different things? The question is do you or world leaders believe in the same things as Satan. It is the beliefs that is in question not the separation of church and state. A lot of the church are Satan driven. There is a very close connection between these kinds of beliefs when they set out to denounce God. From the beginning of time Satan has been around misleading mankind away from God.
ocalhoun wrote:
don't agree with it, but that is probably the logic used.
The bottom line is it is not about logic though one can certainly use their logic but it is all really about choice.
Ankhanu wrote:
posts are probably frowned upon I suppose I could go search the TOS
Any ruling system can be misapplied but I have not seen this occurring by the current moderator (seems fair to me). If you see anything wrong in this post in connection with TOS, please, let me know as I am not in opposition to board rules or did you mean your post? There may be nothing against tos as far as the use of an oversized picture goes but we can also just as easily write our expressions as well.
Ankhanu wrote:
Yeah, I still don't see how the topic has anything to do with having faith in Satan
Sorry, if I did not make that clear as I did not want to make the op way too long. Sure I can tell you why the op is having faith in Satan. These are religious topics, two opposing sides. This post is demonstrating that we can believe either in the teaching of Jesus Christ or belief in the opposite which would be an anti-Christ belief. Satan wanted rulership. If you have any specific questions please ask.
A trap? Satan’s deception perhaps, not mine. You are not being forced to do anything.
liljp617 wrote:
It is interesting how it's simply "too bad" for people who are offended by your denouncement of Satan, yet you throw your arms up in the air and wail when someone says anything that remotely denounces your god... More offended by the lack of consistency and blatant hypocrisy

Please put your arms down? Well this post is on the topic of Satan and not about member dissatisfaction. It is saying it will be too bad for anyone that follows Satan.
coolclay wrote:
So let me get this right I am a little confused, you're saying you believe anyone whose decision is not based upon what they think God wants them to do is automatically of Satan, there is no middle ground?
I am saying what anyone wants to do (whether it concerning in a powerful world position or only to do with their own personal life) is up to them. It is neither a question of what God wants. It is really about what people want. Satan is seriously acting selfishly. There is middle ground in that we can use free will and act on our own as intelligent beings. When it comes to really big decisions however it becomes about who you are going to trust. In some things there are only two possible outcomes and in that there is little middle ground only a direction to take.
Ankhanu
Bluedoll wrote:

Ankhanu wrote:
posts are probably frowned upon I suppose I could go search the TOS
Any ruling system can be misapplied but I have not seen this occurring by the current moderator (seems fair to me). If you see anything wrong in this post in connection with TOS, please, let me know as I am not in opposition to board rules or did you mean your post? There may be nothing against tos as far as the use of an oversized picture goes but we can also just as easily write our expressions as well.

I was referring to me posting the image as a reply, not your post. Sorry for the confusion.
Bluedoll
Yeah, I still don't see how the topic has anything to do with having faith in Satan, but rather about being deceived by said entity... and any belief but a belief centered around the acceptance of God is a deception. Is there any part of responding to this in anything but "yeah, that sounds pretty spot on" that isn't a trap? - Ankhanu In this post everyone is welcome. Thanks Ankhanu. As far as discussion goes I am not perhaps 100% sure what you meant by the trap though?
However for discussion sake is it possible we consider that there are choices to make and things to discuss. This post is a religious discussion and is a denouncement on what Satan believes which really anyone by free will can follow.

Satan in the beginning simply asked a serious question.

Everyone even Satan has free will. Well if free really means you can decide what you want to do then Satan was saying Eve and Adam could exercise that right and eat the forbidden fruit.

Keep in mind that eating from the tree of knowledge is not a restriction to seek knowledge and remain dumb. The fruit represents the decision to choose what is wrong and what is right, what is good and what is bad. It is a tree of knowledge of good and bad. It is a choice.

To have faith in Satan means, do we need to listen to God for our own good? Satan asked this question (lied) and in doing so set the trap then slithered away into his hole.

In the present, we still have this decision to make. We can ignore the wisdom of God and in doing so choose our own demise. I being bold and saying, Atheist extremists are now applying an all out anti-Christ attack in the same way as Satan would, in our present era. If we think this is ok, to believe the same things, are we not putting our faith in Satan?
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
Not true. God does not bark orders. Satan has a free will to act. God has the free will to act as well.
I don't believe in Satan, and I cannot think of equating God with human attributes such as "free will" and "acting". God is omnipotent and unfathomable to me. Much greater than we can dream up with our limited existence of a few decades on earth, mostly animal, partially human and partially spirit, the latter being our only connection with God. If we can be more focused on spirit to the extent that some yogis apparently can, we probably would be much more enlightened but for the most part we can only grasp in the dark through our spirit. The "intellect" in us can be a huge stumbling block, especially when it is connected with our ego or the negative traits of the animal parts in ourselves.
Bluedoll
@Deanhills
Wow, that is so well written and so deep I am honoured to be in this same space. I think what you wrote also show humility, so please do not think of me as someone aggressively anxious when blurting out to you, “yes, we are in the darkness but we do not need to be locked up in there.”

We do have information. Also some thoughtful information for our reasoning ability. Who is God? Who is Satan? How can we possibly come to an understanding about these things?

And God proceeded to create man in his image, in God’s image actually . . . After this God observed the whole shebang and look, all is so very skillfully wonderful. - Genesis1:27-31

If we only consider our makeup, desire to understand without apprehension, and exuberantly look in the mirror to see the greatness (God) and our potentially harmful existence (Satan) it may be true, we do live in a physical world but spiritually we can be alive as well then seek to understand, this very strange to us spiritual realm.

We do not have to dream up images for it is not beyond the normal average person to understand. Jesus Christ will speak with simple illustrations to anyone listening. It is true in fact, it is the higher intellectuals that have trouble with what he says.

The bible mentions before mankind God created angels, Satan was a very special angel and was notably the most cautious.
Ankhanu
Bluedoll wrote:
As far as discussion goes I am not perhaps 100% sure what you meant by the trap though?


The OP is set up in such a way that there is really only agreement and circularity. Either God is right and Satan is evil... or every other position is a deception put forth by Satan. Observe:

Reply A - God is pretty great and we have to watch out for Satan!
Response - Yay!

Reply B - Alternate viewpoint on the nature of God and Satan
Response - You've been deceived by Satan!

Reply C - Atheism, Satan is irrelevant.
Response - You've been deceived by Satan!

Reply D - We must live and die with honour or we'll never enter Sto-vo-kor.
Response - You've been deceived by Satan!

Reply E - Satan's example of rebellion, independence and questioning has some merit, and perhaps the judgment cast upon him was excessive...
Response - You've been deceived by Satan!

Etc. Etc. Etc.

It sets up a pretty clear procedural guideline right from the start... it's a lot like the game kids play, asking "why?" after every answered question.
Bluedoll
@Ankanu
Well, all I can reply is I did not make the bible up. I am not sure I would concur with every reply/response but if you are able to make these observations Ankhanu then you must also be able to observe that these effects are not so allusive after all?

However, if there is a procedural guideline I would make reference to our bible and not just the op. Thanks for explaining.
Bikerman
deanhills wrote:
Bluedoll wrote:
Not true. God does not bark orders. Satan has a free will to act. God has the free will to act as well.
I don't believe in Satan, and I cannot think of equating God with human attributes such as "free will" and "acting". God is omnipotent and unfathomable to me. Much greater than we can dream up with our limited existence of a few decades on earth, mostly animal, partially human and partially spirit, the latter being our only connection with God. If we can be more focused on spirit to the extent that some yogis apparently can, we probably would be much more enlightened but for the most part we can only grasp in the dark through our spirit. The "intellect" in us can be a huge stumbling block, especially when it is connected with our ego or the negative traits of the animal parts in ourselves.

So let's analyse this.
a) You think that God is unfathomable and yet you say God is omnipotent. How do you fathom that?
b) The notion of 'spirit' is unexplained. You assume that there is such a thing and assume that it somehow connects us to an unfathomable God.
I could equally well say that there is an entity called TYRTY which is unfathomable. Our only connection to TYRTY is our GYHT. It makes just about as much sense.
c) Enlightenment is an interesting word. It can also mean the philosophical movement of the 18th century, which is defined by belief in the power of human reasoning.
d) The intellect is not a stumbling block. Without intellect you are simply an unthinking beast. Do you think that a centipede is enlightened? Do you think that an amoeba worships God?
Bluedoll
Bob and Charlie were fiercely competing nuclear scientists in a lab situated in London, England. They always seemed to argue about everything.

One day Charlie said, “Tomorrow, I am going to persuasively bring two plutonium 235 objects together to induce critical mass and establish a new synthesis substance.”

Angrily he slammed and locked the door behind him.

“Well, tomorrow I need to go to visit some relatives in Paris, France. Good idea, Charlie,” Bob muttered to himself.

Bob is now the leading nuclear scientist in Paris, France.



The moral of this story is why waste your time debating with a doorknob.

________________________________________________________________

THYG ruo YTRYT ot noitcennoc ylno ruO .elbamohtafnu si hcihw YTRYT dellac ytitne na si ereht taht yas llew yllauqe dluoc I
Ankhanu
... What?!?
Bikerman
Once again the words are English but the meaning completely escapes me.


PS - Any physicist who talked about 'plutonium 235' would be a pretty strange physicist. Mixing up plutonium and uranium is a pretty bad mistake for anyone to make, particularly a physicist.
deanhills
Bikerman wrote:
So let's analyse this.
a) You think that God is unfathomable and yet you say God is omnipotent. How do you fathom that?
He is much larger than I can fathom.
Bikerman wrote:
b) The notion of 'spirit' is unexplained. You assume that there is such a thing and assume that it somehow connects us to an unfathomable God.
No, I believe in spirit. And it is not a thing. I doubt we will be able to debate this Bikerman, as it cannot be proved scientifically.
Bikerman wrote:
I could equally well say that there is an entity called TYRTY which is unfathomable. Our only connection to TYRTY is our GYHT. It makes just about as much sense.
Sounds like a typical bikerman argument. And I can understand where you are coming from. Yours is a position of pure science. Mine is faith.
Bikerman wrote:
c) Enlightenment is an interesting word. It can also mean the philosophical movement of the 18th century, which is defined by belief in the power of human reasoning.
You're right. It can be many things. If you can't understand what I mean, maybe it is not worth explaining it?
Bikerman wrote:
d) The intellect is not a stumbling block. Without intellect you are simply an unthinking beast. Do you think that a centipede is enlightened? Do you think that an amoeba worships God?
I did not expect you to understand where I was coming from Bikerman, given your very fixed scientific principles. And I am not saying this sarcastically.
Bikerman
But even if God is larger than you can fathom, what makes you think it is omnipotent?
ocalhoun
Bikerman wrote:
But even if God is larger than you can fathom, what makes you think it is omnipotent?

Sounds difficult to answer that way, but try reversing it:
If God is omnipotent, what makes you think you could fathom it?
deanhills
ocalhoun wrote:
Sounds difficult to answer that way, but try reversing it:
If God is omnipotent, what makes you think you could fathom it?
Brilliant question Ocalhoun! Very Happy
Ankhanu
It's a fine question, but it is not the same question.

Simply, something being beyond fathoming does not make it omnipotent. They're related in one direction only, but certainly not synonymous.
deanhills
Ankhanu wrote:
It's a fine question, but it is not the same question.
No, the question is the other way round. It was well thought out by Ocalhoun however. Smile
achowles
Satan is a tool.

Think about it. He's created by an all seeing all knowing god. The Alpha and the Omega. Omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. A god who knows the outcome of his every action before he undertakes that action.

So God created Satan knowing exactly how Satan would turn out. He created Satan just so Satan could go and burn in Hell for all eternity. There's no other explanation. Even when God held Satan to be his most cherished angel he knew what he'd do next.

So either Satan was created from the outset to lord over the unbelievers in Hell or God isn't anywhere near as competent as he's made out to be. Neither scenario is particularly encouraging. Given that God admitted many mistakes during the course of Genesis, perhaps he really is incompetent.

But regardless, that doesn't change the fact that Satan is just a pawn. If he's the pawn of a confused emotional wreck of a God then that only makes him more pathetic.

I see nothing to worship there. So yes, it is perplexing why anyone would want to.
LittleBlackKitten
You're all misunderstanding the scripture. Not gonna get into the argument, but I will explain the quoted scriptures.

Quote:
God sets him up as the Ruler and God of Earth (Corinthians 4:4)


No. Got sent him to earth to rule over the planet Earth and those who stood against God and His Son. The purpose of this was to easily sort who goes to heaven, and who goes to hell. (Speaking strictly on a Christian Faith basis).

Quote:
Now Satan isn;t omnipotent, to be sure, but he is pretty powerful.


The only real difference, is Satan cannot read minds. He is actually capable of everything else God is.

Quote:
Since God sets him up as ruler of Earth then it is clearly God's will that he rules.


Satan is not the ruler of Earth itself - the scripture means Earth as a PEOPLE - those who are NOT children of God are automatically children of Satan, by default. It's like a penny; if you're not face side, you're tail side.


Quote:
We learn from Job (1:6-9) that Satan can only act as God wills him to act. Therefore Satan is not only ruling with the full authority and approval of God, but every action and order is sanctioned by God.


What this means is that Satan has a rule book, just like the children of God do. In essence, God says "You can't do this, ever", and Satan has no choice but to agree. The point of Satan's entire existence, to God, is to provide the shadow among the light for humanity to make it's decision. His purpose is solely to show the difference. Its like salt and pepper; God merely added the pepper to illustrate how salty salt truly is, and lets us make our own mind up if we want salt or pepper, He doesn't want to force salt on us if we truly want pepper. God wants us to truly want Him and His life; therefore, there MUST be a choice. So, Satan was created, for the purpose of CHOICE. To Satan, of course, his purpose is confusion destruction, and to take humanity from the eyes and hand of God.


Quote:
Ir seems to me, then, that the only righteous thing to do is to do exactly what Satan tells you to do, when he tells you to do it. Anything else is going against the clear will of God and must therefore be a sin.


You see, Satan's entire purpose is to make you THINK that, and God's purpose is for you to see the truth about it and make your OWN mind up.
Bikerman
LittleBlackKitten wrote:
Quote:
Now Satan isn;t omnipotent, to be sure, but he is pretty powerful.
The only real difference, is Satan cannot read minds. He is actually capable of everything else God is.
Nonono. That cannot be, since God is omniscient and omnipotent. If Satan were capable of everything God is then he would be likewise. Satan is not omnipresent - he can only be one place at a time. God is, by definitional logic, infinitely more powerful than Satan (any infinity is, by definition, infinitely larger than any finite quantity). It is also a bit misleading to say that Satan cannot read minds. Whilst that is not actually settled in the bible, we are told that he can put thoughts into our minds at will...Whether he can also read our minds whilst doing so is moot...
Quote:
Satan is not the ruler of Earth itself - the scripture means Earth as a PEOPLE - those who are NOT children of God are automatically children of Satan, by default. It's like a penny; if you're not face side, you're tail side.
Nonono. This is bad theology. Satan IS ruler of the earth - this is clear from the following passage from Luke:
Quote:
The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
Luke :5-8
Quote:
What this means is that Satan has a rule book, just like the children of God do. In essence, God says "You can't do this, ever", and Satan has no choice but to agree. The point of Satan's entire existence, to God, is to provide the shadow among the light for humanity to make it's decision. His purpose is solely to show the difference. Its like salt and pepper; God merely added the pepper to illustrate how salty salt truly is, and lets us make our own mind up if we want salt or pepper, He doesn't want to force salt on us if we truly want pepper. God wants us to truly want Him and His life; therefore, there MUST be a choice. So, Satan was created, for the purpose of CHOICE. To Satan, of course, his purpose is confusion destruction, and to take humanity from the eyes and hand of God.
Ermm...this is problematic on several fronts.
Firstly there is no requirement for God to 'show the difference' - human beings are capable of actions as evil as anything Satan can dream-up. In fact Satan is a bit of a lightweight when it comes to really getting down to some evil.
We already have 'a choice' since no human can attain the standard that God sets. Satan offers nothing that is not already present in our human nature.
(In reality, of course, Satan is a metaphor for human weakness/failings rather than an actual entity - this is why the references to Satan are so rare and mistranslated in the bible. Satan develops in the bible, from the OT to the new. He starts as a simple metaphor for human 'evils'..
Quote:
For example, the word satan is used for a human potential adversary in the Philistine army (1 Samuel 29:4), and two kings God raises to be Solomon's adversaries (1 Kings 11:14, 23). An angel of the LORD is called satan when he blocks the path of Balaam (Numbers 22:22, 32). Satan becomes more developed as a character in later writings of the Hebrew Bible, though he only appears a few times. He at times causes humans to do bad things, as he incites King David to conduct a census (1 Chronicles 21:1).

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/sizing-up-satan-in-the-bible.html
Quote:
You see, Satan's entire purpose is to make you THINK that, and God's purpose is for you to see the truth about it and make your OWN mind up.
LOL...then Satan is a mistake. If God REALLY wanted us to see the truth and make up our own minds then why would he appoint Satan as ruler? This is a daft argument. I want my students to understand information theory and be able to work independently, having internalised the knowledge. Should I, then, provide them with misinformation? Should I employ others to try to persuade them that the theory is all wrong?
That is a very strange way to educate anyone and would rightly be called perverse, even unprofessional if a teacher did it.
achowles
Bikerman wrote:
LOL...then Satan is a mistake. If God REALLY wanted us to see the truth and make up our own minds then why would he appoint Satan as ruler? This is a daft argument.


How can Satan be a mistake if God is omniscient? Razz

I never really understood why so many theists insist on seeing their god as an insane trickster. Like an omnipotent take on Batman's Joker. Was there a point in the history of Christianity where God was imbued with character traits taken from Loki? I know there are a lot of other religions in the Christian mix so I suppose we can't rule anything out.

Is such a thing really worth praying to, even if it is in fact your creator? Admittedly it would explain much and certainly isn't as divorced from reality as the concept of a perfect god. But even if such a thing were true, I'd just keep my head down and try to avoid attracting its attention. After all, look what happened to poor old Job. That's what you get for being a devout follower of the trickster god it seems.

Oh look post number 666. How apt.
epi97
Quote:
The only real difference, is Satan cannot read minds. He is actually capable of everything else God is.

Actually Satan does not have immortality. God does.
Satan can be killed , God can’t.
ocalhoun
This is a thread about Satanism (not numbers or creation), please stay on topic.
Bluedoll
I might also add that in the op the word satanism was not mentioned but rather faith in satan. The significance being is that in the op “Satan would rather have us believe there is no God, there is no place for God in schools, governmental - decisions of any kind and that mankind can decide for itself in what is right for it and what is wrong for it. This would be putting our faith in Satan.” does not specify any one group or designation but is focused on society in general and those it fits.
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
I might also add that in the op the word satanism was not mentioned but rather faith in satan. The significance being is that in the op “Satan would rather have us believe there is no God, there is no place for God in schools, governmental - decisions of any kind and that mankind can decide for itself in what is right for it and what is wrong for it. This would be putting our faith in Satan.” does not specify any one group or designation but is focused on society in general and those it fits.
OK, I think I get it, it's more to do with evil, and a source of evil that tempts us into evil ways? I think this is where I differ with you. I think good and evil are part of our human design. Something that we own and have to take responsibility for. Whatever evil we see is really a reflection of our own thinking and the evil in our own minds. We have to have evil in our own minds to be able to identify evil in the minds of others and ditto good. When we point to evil in someone else, then we jointly own that evil with the other person. The challenge is to get past that and to get to find a balance between the two. It's like harmony in music so you can get all the different notes to work together.
Bluedoll
deanhills wrote:
Whatever evil we see is really a reflection of our own thinking and the evil in our own minds. We have to have evil in our own minds to be able to identify evil in the minds of others and ditto good. When we point to evil in someone else, then we jointly own that evil with the other person. The challenge is to get past that and to get to find a balance between the two. It's like harmony in music so you can get all the different notes to work together.
Yes, I understand what you mean, working together in harmony but on this topic I think it is like the choir singing inside or the drunkards on the outside. The pointing going on is not meant to be about judgement but about education. Drunkards driving, kill people.

We can easily use the word evil and it will of course fit but sometimes I like to use the word ownership. Ownership like, this is mine, this is my post, this is my thread, this is my forum, this is my community, this is my baby, this my way, this is my earth and I am in authority of it – that kind of thing. This can be demonstrated as well. If someone responds to my post, I will respond to yours, if I have authority over a forum and I will take responsibility for it, if I own the earth and you are trying to pollute it - - - I can ask you to please stop hurting it. How I respond really depends on who “I” is does it not? Ultimately, how we act is really a product of what we choose to believe, or to put this another way, what/who we follow as our personal guideline.

Faith in Jesus Christ is trusting in a friend of humanity. Faith in satan is accepting a ruler-ship of the world that substitutes for God. A person can say, I have a non- believe and therefore have faith in my own abilities which is fine providing their values are in line with the two most important choices available. When it comes strictly to our spirituality, what many people do not understand, is regardless of what they do, they will be imitators constantly or sporadically of one of only two possible ways. The choice is as we know, in the simplest of explanations practicing ‘the golden rule’ or in opposition to it.

I agree with what you said about responsibility and that we are always dealing with both good and evil around and in us but also believe that to consider anything other than the will of God will be in opposition to it determined by our acts. What is interesting, regardless of our personal belief or non-belief we will be imitators not because only of our beliefs but by our acts. A good deed is a good deed period and it will always reap success. Poor acts get poor results.

I was thinking when I made this thread not just of our own personal welfare but the welfare of the world. Society can say God is outdated, we need not trust in God, we do not need God, we can manage this, we can make our own rules, we can elect rulers, but in doing so, who eventually will these actions be imitating? I do agree knowledge of good and bad means power and with power comes responsiblity. I will choose to leave the ultimate power of what is good and bad to God.
dan751
I believe Satan is real. I believe he's an evil force in the universe.
Satan IS a bad rap indeed. Let's look at it like this:
God created all the spirits and the people and so on.
God told Adam and Eve that they have hope of eternal existence if they obey him. The angels have the same rule. Satan was an angel, at one time. But then he got greedy. He became jealous of the worship God was receiving from the other angels and Adam and Eve. He wanted worship for himself, rather than for God. So, he deceived Adam and Eve. God later put Satan as ruler of earth and all whom do not choose to obey God, which is largely why you see people getting shot and walked over like they were target practice and so much other cruelty in the world. But worshiping Satan doesn't gain you God's approval.
Think of it like this: Satan says "I challenge God's authority". God says "Okay. Let's see what happens." If God destroyed Satan then and there, do you think the other angels and being would've questioned "Maybe Satan was onto something?" ?
deanhills
@dan751. To me these stories are more symbolic ones. Made up by human beings to understand their earthly existence better. We seem to have this knack of attributing human features to God and the existence of Satan and angels that may be beyond our ability to contemplate. All of what is in the world has opposites, so now that we have God, we have to create something that is an opposite to God? For me evil on earth is more about absence of good. Rather than a force in its own right that gets to manifest itself in a super natural force.
Bluedoll
I believe in Angels, as well as God as spiritual in being but I do not think this belief is a requirement to live a good life here on earth.

When it comes to the bible, can we have an absolute clarity about what is real and what is a illustrative? It can be sometimes borderline. I think what is most important to recognize is what the bible can do for us. If we allowed it, could be a source irritation or of argument, if we let people play on our emotions, who only want to argue and fiercely debate about the bible. Our study of the bible does not have to be that way, in fact for many, it is a source of hope, contentment and connection with God, all of which are certainly not little considerations. If the bible can give us so much, why would we let confusion in, where it is not needed, for the words in the bible are a refreshment and a source for clarity in spiritual matters. It would seem to me, that people can and do believe details, they want, but perhaps they also want to keep the most important parts, the virtues intact.

We do know the bible was written by men and their is a lot of content about men, for men, it is translated to different languages by men and often interpreted by men, yet the bible is called ‘the word of God’. How can we make a distinction about what is real (God’s word) and what is as some people say, “just a story”. This separation will end up being the things we do belief in and they vary from person to person, they always did. Even in the bible, Paul, for example wrote to groups of early Christian followers talking about their differences in belief. What can we learn from his letters? How not to argue or debate on fruitless details but keep love in our hearts for the words of the bible to have value?

We always need to be careful for our hearts sake, not to stray too far off from our understandings or we might also risk straying from God’s ways. If we were to believe in what satan teaches, then what good could the bible do for us, for we would soon loose our love for God. Personally, when it comes to the bible, I can always have questions. I just felt like writing this. It is not pointing at anything anyone wrote in this thread – thanks.



Quote:
The serpent was clever, more clever than any wild animal God had made. He spoke to the Woman: "Do I understand that God told you not to eat from any tree in the garden?"
The Woman said to the serpent, "Not at all. We can eat from the trees in the garden. It's only about the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, 'Don't eat from it; don't even touch it or you'll die.'"
The serpent told the Woman, "You won't die. God knows that the moment you eat from that tree, you'll see what's really going on. You'll be just like God, knowing everything, ranging all the way from good to evil."- Genesis 3:1-5 (The Message)


The message to mankind is that God can determine what is best, if we listen. God can teach human what is good and bad or human can decide independently. If man takes on all the responsibility, not willing to trust and seeks to keep God out of his world then the result of his decisions (the knowledge of good and bad) will be a calamity. God loves mankind and wants to see good things occur along with the gift of free will. That is why Jesus Christ made the illustration in the ‘lords prayer’ to our father. It is a fathers love. Satan on the other hand sees himself and mankind independent of God in knowing what is best but his failing (evil) could be ours as well if we choose to follow his way in that he has no love in his heart (a requirement as well for responsible choices) but only of a selfish desire for authority.

When Adam and Eve left the protected garden, things were different, but they were still looked after and loved and free, free to choose, as we are today.
nickfyoung
Bluedoll wrote:
I believe in Angels, as well as God as spiritual in being but I do not think this belief is a requirement to live a good life here on earth.

When it comes to the bible, can we have an absolute clarity about what is real and what is a illustrative? It can be sometimes borderline. I think what is most important to recognize is what the bible can do for us. If we allowed it, could be a source irritation or of argument, if we let people play on our emotions, who only want to argue and fiercely debate about the bible. Our study of the bible does not have to be that way, in fact for many, it is a source of hope, contentment and connection with God, all of which are certainly not little considerations. If the bible can give us so much, why would we let confusion in, where it is not needed, for the words in the bible are a refreshment and a source for clarity in spiritual matters. It would seem to me, that people can and do believe details, they want, but perhaps they also want to keep the most important parts, the virtues intact.

We do know the bible was written by men and their is a lot of content about men, for men, it is translated to different languages by men and often interpreted by men, yet the bible is called ‘the word of God’. How can we make a distinction about what is real (God’s word) and what is as some people say, “just a story”. This separation will end up being the things we do belief in and they vary from person to person, they always did. Even in the bible, Paul, for example wrote to groups of early Christian followers talking about their differences in belief. What can we learn from his letters? How not to argue or debate on fruitless details but keep love in our hearts for the words of the bible to have value?

We always need to be careful for our hearts sake, not to stray too far off from our understandings or we might also risk straying from God’s ways. If we were to believe in what satan teaches, then what good could the bible do for us, for we would soon loose our love for God. Personally, when it comes to the bible, I can always have questions. I just felt like writing this. It is not pointing at anything anyone wrote in this thread – thanks.



Quote:
The serpent was clever, more clever than any wild animal God had made. He spoke to the Woman: "Do I understand that God told you not to eat from any tree in the garden?"
The Woman said to the serpent, "Not at all. We can eat from the trees in the garden. It's only about the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, 'Don't eat from it; don't even touch it or you'll die.'"
The serpent told the Woman, "You won't die. God knows that the moment you eat from that tree, you'll see what's really going on. You'll be just like God, knowing everything, ranging all the way from good to evil."- Genesis 3:1-5 (The Message)


The message to mankind is that God can determine what is best, if we listen. God can teach human what is good and bad or human can decide independently. If man takes on all the responsibility, not willing to trust and seeks to keep God out of his world then the result of his decisions (the knowledge of good and bad) will be a calamity. God loves mankind and wants to see good things occur along with the gift of free will. That is why Jesus Christ made the illustration in the ‘lords prayer’ to our father. It is a fathers love. Satan on the other hand sees himself and mankind independent of God in knowing what is best but his failing (evil) could be ours as well if we choose to follow his way in that he has no love in his heart (a requirement as well for responsible choices) but only of a selfish desire for authority.

When Adam and Eve left the protected garden, things were different, but they were still looked after and loved and free, free to choose, as we are today.


Bluedoll, I admire your faith. You have a way with words that explains what you think in a beautiful way. You express your faith with confidence and understanding. Even the mighty 'Bikerman' bends to your arguments. These sorts of posts are fun to throw out there and get people thinking a little. Sure Satan has power, but if you are a Christian, he only has the power that you allow him. To all others, whether they acknowledge him or not, he has control. They may not be aware of that control and indeed, that control is not exerted greatly because they are already on his side. However, if they were to make a step toward God, they would come under his attention and his influence in their lives would be increased. After all, that is his aim to keep as many from God as he can.
Keep up the good work. Enjoy your posts.
deanhills
nickfyoung wrote:
Bluedoll, I admire your faith. You have a way with words that explains what you think in a beautiful way. You express your faith with confidence and understanding. Even the mighty 'Bikerman' bends to your arguments. These sorts of posts are fun to throw out there and get people thinking a little. Sure Satan has power, but if you are a Christian, he only has the power that you allow him. To all others, whether they acknowledge him or not, he has control. They may not be aware of that control and indeed, that control is not exerted greatly because they are already on his side. However, if they were to make a step toward God, they would come under his attention and his influence in their lives would be increased. After all, that is his aim to keep as many from God as he can.
Keep up the good work. Enjoy your posts.


Think your comments would please Bluedoll very much. I've sent a link of this post to her as she purposely stopped visiting the Faith and Phil&Rel Forums since June/July last year. She didn't particularly relish being referred to as a troll all of the time including a sticky that was put up on trolling in the Phil&Rel Forum.
busman
Question @Bluedoll or @nickfyoung... If god is perfect right?

1. God is PERFECTION(No flaws, no comprehension of what it would be like to be flawed)

Then god make satan right?

2. Perfection makes the being known as satan.

How would satan rebel against that which he was made from when satan was made from perfection?

3. Perfection makes satan, satan rebels against perfection...?

So what happens here is you have to make a giant leap of logic here or else you can't get that answer.

How does a being that is complete and total perfection make an imperfect being and further more how does a being that was made from perfection in an apparently perfect universe (considering all came from perfection) even contemplate what imperfection is when it has never even experienced it?
Ankhanu
I don't think this is a well-formed question, really, busman. It would be pretty trivial for a perfect being to create imperfect creations; it's a perfect being, therefore it understands imperfection... if it did not, it would not be perfect, right??
I think the real question would be why would a perfect being create an imperfect entity that would inevitably rebel? Got, being "all-knowing" would have full knowledge of Satan's eventual betrayal and the resulting turmoil. Why insert suffering where suffering isn't necessary... then, when that agent of suffering is known/identified, why allow it to perpetuate?
nickfyoung
busman wrote:
Question @Bluedoll or @nickfyoung... If god is perfect right?

1. God is PERFECTION(No flaws, no comprehension of what it would be like to be flawed)

Then god make satan right?

2. Perfection makes the being known as satan.

How would satan rebel against that which he was made from when satan was made from perfection?

3. Perfection makes satan, satan rebels against perfection...?

So what happens here is you have to make a giant leap of logic here or else you can't get that answer.

How does a being that is complete and total perfection make an imperfect being and further more how does a being that was made from perfection in an apparently perfect universe (considering all came from perfection) even contemplate what imperfection is when it has never even experienced it?


Satan was made as one of God's angels and was a leader in his role and involved in the music industry of heaven and was called Lucifer. As his music became more and more popular he became proud and accepted the praise of the other angels. As his pride grew he desired to take over the role of God and be king of heaven and that is when God through him out and when he went he took one third of the angels with him.
He is known as Satan and the god of this world and rules the fallen angels here that are know as demons. He controls most of the humans too by the use of those demons. As they are a spiritual entity they need to live an other bodies so inhabit the people of this world.
You would have several living within you and depending how much you allow them to have control you may have a few more. People who allow them full control can have hundreds and are under complete control. Their aim of course is to destroy you because that is how Satan is getting back at God, by destroying his creation.
That is also why there are hideous cruel crimes that you just can't understand. Now you do.
One can't just pick out a random piece of information and throw it at God and ask why. God has a plan and it all fits in to a big picture with a definite conclusion that is coming up.
Hope this helps.
nickfyoung
Ankhanu wrote:
I don't think this is a well-formed question, really, busman. It would be pretty trivial for a perfect being to create imperfect creations; it's a perfect being, therefore it understands imperfection... if it did not, it would not be perfect, right??
I think the real question would be why would a perfect being create an imperfect entity that would inevitably rebel? Got, being "all-knowing" would have full knowledge of Satan's eventual betrayal and the resulting turmoil. Why insert suffering where suffering isn't necessary... then, when that agent of suffering is known/identified, why allow it to perpetuate?


Like I said in the last post, God has a plan and it is all part of the big picture which coming to fruition. It is a bit difficult for a finite mind to comprehend the infinite mind of god and why he does stuff. He has revealed his plan to those who are interested and it is interesting watching it being played out.
Ankhanu
nickfyoung wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:
I don't think this is a well-formed question, really, busman. It would be pretty trivial for a perfect being to create imperfect creations; it's a perfect being, therefore it understands imperfection... if it did not, it would not be perfect, right??
I think the real question would be why would a perfect being create an imperfect entity that would inevitably rebel? Got, being "all-knowing" would have full knowledge of Satan's eventual betrayal and the resulting turmoil. Why insert suffering where suffering isn't necessary... then, when that agent of suffering is known/identified, why allow it to perpetuate?


Like I said in the last post, God has a plan and it is all part of the big picture which coming to fruition. It is a bit difficult for a finite mind to comprehend the infinite mind of god and why he does stuff. He has revealed his plan to those who are interested and it is interesting watching it being played out.

"There is a plan" is not an actual answer, right? It's a little like answering the question of "How do we see" with "eyes"; it identifies that there is something, but speaks nothing of what it is, how it works, etc.
nickfyoung
Ankhanu wrote:
nickfyoung wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:
I don't think this is a well-formed question, really, busman. It would be pretty trivial for a perfect being to create imperfect creations; it's a perfect being, therefore it understands imperfection... if it did not, it would not be perfect, right??
I think the real question would be why would a perfect being create an imperfect entity that would inevitably rebel? Got, being "all-knowing" would have full knowledge of Satan's eventual betrayal and the resulting turmoil. Why insert suffering where suffering isn't necessary... then, when that agent of suffering is known/identified, why allow it to perpetuate?


Like I said in the last post, God has a plan and it is all part of the big picture which coming to fruition. It is a bit difficult for a finite mind to comprehend the infinite mind of god and why he does stuff. He has revealed his plan to those who are interested and it is interesting watching it being played out.

"There is a plan" is not an actual answer, right? It's a little like answering the question of "How do we see" with "eyes"; it identifies that there is something, but speaks nothing of what it is, how it works, etc.


It is actually. The plan is all set out and perfectly revealed for all to see and are interested. Of course, it is not very understandable to those who only read to ridicule and condemn. If one is truly interested to learn of this plan then it is revealed to you and becomes perfectly understandable.
The question we were answering was dealing with Satan. Mentioned in the plan is the fact that this Satan actually is able to blind you from understanding it.
So of course, it is perfectly understandable for someone to not comprehend it all.
Ankhanu
Weaksauce.
busman
Ankhanu wrote:
I don't think this is a well-formed question, really, busman. It would be pretty trivial for a perfect being to create imperfect creations; it's a perfect being, therefore it understands imperfection... if it did not, it would not be perfect, right??
I think the real question would be why would a perfect being create an imperfect entity that would inevitably rebel? Got, being "all-knowing" would have full knowledge of Satan's eventual betrayal and the resulting turmoil. Why insert suffering where suffering isn't necessary... then, when that agent of suffering is known/identified, why allow it to perpetuate?


Idk dude, how could a PERFECT being create IMPERFECTION? That doesn't flow very well to me... If you could explain it better I would much appreciate it. I just don't get it ya know? Doesn't seem to work. It would be like asking how could an imperfect being create perfection? I don't believe they can, I don't believe the concepts are mutually compatable. If you could explain this better for me please do, I would love to be enlightened on this topic.
loremar
nickfyoung wrote:

Like I said in the last post, God has a plan and it is all part of the big picture which coming to fruition. It is a bit difficult for a finite mind to comprehend the infinite mind of god and why he does stuff. He has revealed his plan to those who are interested and it is interesting watching it being played out.

If it's so hard for a finite mind to comprehend the infinite mind of god, then how do you know he has a plan? And how do you know that it's for the good of everyone? How would you even know if it's good? Surely a finite mind can't tell that right? It would be so bold for you to claim that you understand God? And planning all this using Satan? kinda cruel don't you think?

And if God has a plan and if he is perfect, then he can absolutely predict the future by 100% because a perfect being won't do something wrong. A perfect being should therefore be able to know what people will do, otherwise he can't foresee that his decision is wrong because there would be unpredictable events that would go against his plan. In other words all actions and movements in the universe should be accounted including future human actions. So if he can already absolutely foretell human actions/decisions, then is it not right for a perfect god to stop wrong actions since that would eventually bring them to hell. Is a perfect god not concerned about people going to hell? A perfect god should be able to stop people from going through unnecessary suffering right? And since evil is the cause of people going to hell and also the cause of many suffering in the world, then a perfect god should be able to stop evil. Then why is there evil? It's the big Epicurus's question.
nickfyoung
loremar wrote:
nickfyoung wrote:

Like I said in the last post, God has a plan and it is all part of the big picture which coming to fruition. It is a bit difficult for a finite mind to comprehend the infinite mind of god and why he does stuff. He has revealed his plan to those who are interested and it is interesting watching it being played out.

If it's so hard for a finite mind to comprehend the infinite mind of god, then how do you know he has a plan? And how do you know that it's for the good of everyone? How would you even know if it's good? Surely a finite mind can't tell that right? It would be so bold for you to claim that you understand God? And planning all this using Satan? kinda cruel don't you think?

And if God has a plan and if he is perfect, then he can absolutely predict the future by 100% because a perfect being won't do something wrong. A perfect being should therefore be able to know what people will do, otherwise he can't foresee that his decision is wrong because there would be unpredictable events that would go against his plan. In other words all actions and movements in the universe should be accounted including future human actions. So if he can already absolutely foretell human actions/decisions, then is it not right for a perfect god to stop wrong actions since that would eventually bring them to hell. Is a perfect god not concerned about people going to hell? A perfect god should be able to stop people from going through unnecessary suffering right? And since evil is the cause of people going to hell and also the cause of many suffering in the world, then a perfect god should be able to stop evil. Then why is there evil? It's the big Epicurus's question.


The plan has been revealed. God doesn't want to stop evil because he created evil for a purpose as part of that plan. God is not concerned with you going hell. He wants you there so he can punish you as part of that plan.
Ankhanu
Swell fella.
Afaceinthematrix
Why couldn't a perfect god create an imperfect Satan? Human beings aren't perfect, the world isn't perfect, in fact, nothing that I can think of is perfect. Don't Christians believe that what makes their god special is that their god is perfect while nothing else is? Isn't that why they think that their god is better than everything else - it being perfect?

*Edit: These forums are messing up and so this should be under loremar's post saying:

Quote:

If he does his job perfectly then no one will go to heaven.
Still, creating Satan is cruel.
nickfyoung
busman wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:
I don't think this is a well-formed question, really, busman. It would be pretty trivial for a perfect being to create imperfect creations; it's a perfect being, therefore it understands imperfection... if it did not, it would not be perfect, right??
I think the real question would be why would a perfect being create an imperfect entity that would inevitably rebel? Got, being "all-knowing" would have full knowledge of Satan's eventual betrayal and the resulting turmoil. Why insert suffering where suffering isn't necessary... then, when that agent of suffering is known/identified, why allow it to perpetuate?


Idk dude, how could a PERFECT being create IMPERFECTION? That doesn't flow very well to me... If you could explain it better I would much appreciate it. I just don't get it ya know? Doesn't seem to work. It would be like asking how could an imperfect being create perfection? I don't believe they can, I don't believe the concepts are mutually compatable. If you could explain this better for me please do, I would love to be enlightened on this topic.


Maybe the premise is wrong.

Satan is imperfect
God is perfect
A perfect God can not create an imperfect Satan
Therefore there is no God.

Maybe God created Satan perfect as perfectly evil to do an evil job which he does perfectly.
Then your premise would be different.

Satan is perfect
God is perfect
A perfect God created a perfect Satan
Therefore God exists
loremar
nickfyoung wrote:

Maybe the premise is wrong.

Satan is imperfect
God is perfect
A perfect God can not create an imperfect Satan
Therefore there is no God.

Maybe God created Satan perfect as perfectly evil to do an evil job which he does perfectly.
Then your premise would be different.

Satan is perfect
God is perfect
A perfect God created a perfect Satan
Therefore God exists

If he does his job perfectly then no one will go to heaven.
Still, creating Satan is cruel.
busman
nickfyoung wrote:
busman wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:
I don't think this is a well-formed question, really, busman. It would be pretty trivial for a perfect being to create imperfect creations; it's a perfect being, therefore it understands imperfection... if it did not, it would not be perfect, right??
I think the real question would be why would a perfect being create an imperfect entity that would inevitably rebel? Got, being "all-knowing" would have full knowledge of Satan's eventual betrayal and the resulting turmoil. Why insert suffering where suffering isn't necessary... then, when that agent of suffering is known/identified, why allow it to perpetuate?


Idk dude, how could a PERFECT being create IMPERFECTION? That doesn't flow very well to me... If you could explain it better I would much appreciate it. I just don't get it ya know? Doesn't seem to work. It would be like asking how could an imperfect being create perfection? I don't believe they can, I don't believe the concepts are mutually compatable. If you could explain this better for me please do, I would love to be enlightened on this topic.


Maybe the premise is wrong.

Satan is imperfect
God is perfect
A perfect God can not create an imperfect Satan
Therefore there is no God.

Maybe God created Satan perfect as perfectly evil to do an evil job which he does perfectly.
Then your premise would be different.

Satan is perfect
God is perfect
A perfect God created a perfect Satan
Therefore God exists


I don't find myself agreeing with you very often but this is probably the ONLY way this could actually be feasible.

@loremar You are completely correct to sir. It's very cruel and unusual.
Ankhanu
It's actually presuppositional... But, I suppose that's the point of the Faith forum. But, taking the presupposition that God exists, I still don't think that line of reasoning is logical/sensible.

There's no reason that a perfect god could not create an imperfect entity; as pointed out, if that god created us, we're fine examples of imperfection. But, without resorting to examples, there's the simple logic that a perfect entity, by definition MUST be capable of creating imperfection; if it is unable to create the imperfect, it is not perfect, and is itself imperfect. The ability to understand and create the imperfect is seemingly intrinsic to a creative being that is perfect.

It's logically inconsistent to posit that a perfect being is incapable of understanding imperfection.

It is logically consistent, however, that a perfect god could not accidentally create an imperfect being; therefore the creation of something imperfect would necessarily be an act of intent.
loremar
And then there's the question whether perfection objectively exist in reality. It might actually be pointless to discuss about it.
Ankhanu
loremar wrote:
It might actually be pointless to discuss about it.

I think so Wink
BigGeek
Bluedoll wrote:
Faith in Jesus Christ is trusting in a friend of humanity. Faith in satan is accepting a ruler-ship of the world that substitutes for God. A person can say, I have a non- believe and therefore have faith in my own abilities which is fine providing their values are in line with the two most important choices available. When it comes strictly to our spirituality, what many people do not understand, is regardless of what they do, they will be imitators constantly or sporadically of one of only two possible ways. The choice is as we know, in the simplest of explanations practicing ‘the golden rule’ or in opposition to it.

I agree with what you said about responsibility and that we are always dealing with both good and evil around and in us but also believe that to consider anything other than the will of God will be in opposition to it determined by our acts. What is interesting, regardless of our personal belief or non-belief we will be imitators not because only of our beliefs but by our acts. A good deed is a good deed period and it will always reap success. Poor acts get poor results.


This is where the whole thing breaks down for me. Practicing "the golden rule" does not apply, in an honest look at the world today, those that lie, cheat, and steal from the masses of people are rewarded, the more hardship that they create they greater their reward. Just look any any good CEO that devastated local communities by outsourcing all the jobs locally for a higher profit margin. The more hardship and devastation they create the greater their reward. I can give numerous examples of this reality.

Poor acts often yield impressive results, and again I see this on an ongoing basis, people in positions of power and authority act very poorly, yet reap great rewards, sad but true.

Watching this go on in the world has caused me to doubt the truth of the "golden rule" and of the idea that we reap as we sow. If these were so, and there was an almighty god overseeing the human race, then why do we not see more retribution, and poor treatment for these sort of actions? For me the obvious answer is that they are not true, they are nice concepts to keep people in line while the rulers and leaders can have their way.

I would think that any sort of omnipresent, all knowing being would demonstrate that this behavior is unjust and there would be a price to pay for it, since that never seems to be true, I have difficulty accepting it as such. Sad but true!

Also, all the arguments that attempt to explain this opposition of truth, seem fuzzy, and illogical, and condescending.

And please don't try to tell me that we can't understand gods ways.....my typical response is....OH YEAH.... try me, I bet I can understand it!!
BigGeek
Bikerman wrote:
Satan got a bad rap. I mean, let's look at the biblical facts.
a) He rebels in Heaven - which is a pretty stupid thing to do considering he is a finite limited entity and God isn't. Therefore he is not very bright.
b) Having lost, God sets him up as the Ruler and God of Earth (Corinthians 4:4)
c) So, we poor humans are given a Lord and God called Satan. Now Satan isn;t omnipotent, to be sure, but he is pretty powerful.
d) Since God sets him up as ruler of Earth then it is clearly God's will that he rules. Therefore if we refuse to follow his rule then we are going against the will of God, as well as setting ourselves up against a hugely powerful ex-Archangel with a 'hoard of demons' at his command.
e) We learn from Job (1:6-9) that Satan can only act as God wills him to act. Therefore Satan is not only ruling with the full authority and approval of God, but every action and order is sanctioned by God.

Conclusion?
Ir seems to me, then, that the only righteous thing to do is to do exactly what Satan tells you to do, when he tells you to do it. Anything else is going against the clear will of God and must therefore be a sin.

Now, pass me a large scotch, plenty of drugs and a couple of prostitutes, I'm on a mission from God.


This is one of your more memorable posts for me....when I read it I almost spit my coffee all over my laptop trying to keep from laughing!

Thanks, I needed that, and another bottle of scotch Twisted Evil
busman
Ankhanu wrote:
It's actually presuppositional... But, I suppose that's the point of the Faith forum. But, taking the presupposition that God exists, I still don't think that line of reasoning is logical/sensible.

There's no reason that a perfect god could not create an imperfect entity; as pointed out, if that god created us, we're fine examples of imperfection. But, without resorting to examples, there's the simple logic that a perfect entity, by definition MUST be capable of creating imperfection; if it is unable to create the imperfect, it is not perfect, and is itself imperfect. The ability to understand and create the imperfect is seemingly intrinsic to a creative being that is perfect.

It's logically inconsistent to posit that a perfect being is incapable of understanding imperfection.

It is logically consistent, however, that a perfect god could not accidentally create an imperfect being; therefore the creation of something imperfect would necessarily be an act of intent.


Ty. Very Happy edited for this thought:

Hey say that God COULD create an imperefect creature right? By creating imperfection wouldn't he now have a hand in this imperfection? Wouldn't that negate perfection? Wouldn't having a hand in imperfection when you are supposedly perfect make you partially responsible for imperfection thereby causing you to becom implicitly imperfect too? Just a thought.
nguyenvulong
Where does Satan come from ? = God
Satan is an angel, Lucifer who consider human is inferior compared to God
Ankhanu
busman wrote:
Ty. Very Happy edited for this thought:

Hey say that God COULD create an imperefect creature right? By creating imperfection wouldn't he now have a hand in this imperfection? Wouldn't that negate perfection? Wouldn't having a hand in imperfection when you are supposedly perfect make you partially responsible for imperfection thereby causing you to becom implicitly imperfect too? Just a thought.

It would make God completely responsible for the imperfection, yes. But, I think it would only indicate imperfection if it were unintentional. If it was the intent to create an imperfect entity and cause suffering, I'm not sure how that would negate perfection.

I think part of the issue is conflating "perfect" with "good" or "moral"... God could well be perfect, but still be an ass, intentionally creating entities that are imperfect and at odds with one another and itself... but, one can only conclude that perfection in that instance does indicate malign intent.

Of course, if Satan's imperfection is an accident, something unforeseen, then clearly God cannot be perfect.
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