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Bluedoll
The universe is a big place and we stand small in comparison yet . .

Quote:
in time the followers come near to Jesus and ask, “who really is greatest in all the domain?”
So calling a young child near to them he says, “truly, unless you turn around become as young children, you will by no other means even enter into the domain.” - out of Matthew 18


What do you think this means?
watersoul
Quote:
Truly, unless you turn around become as young children, you will by no other means even enter into the domain.


I personally would read a strong message there for me to restore some childlike innocence where I believe everything I'm told and keep my questions simple, otherwise I cannot join the club.

I'm assuming the message is probably something like "the greatest in the domain are the innocents such as children with absolute faith inspired by their teachings?" But without reading the associated verses I admit thats just a guess.
LittleBlackKitten
It's referring to the childlike faith that young children have in their parents, and the attitude of non-seriousness and play that children have.

He wants His people to be reverent with great faith, like the faith a child has in their mommy or daddy, that to a child's world, their mommy and daddy are everything to them, their day, their life, their protection, their source of sustinance and of rest, of love, discipline, and of fun.

He wants His people to become simple in the respect that kids are; their lives are about learning, playing, and being guided through life, while not straying about and being of our own.
watersoul
I would struggle with that though because my mind has developed to be able to ask questions and consider deeper meanings than simply the things I am told are true.
The comparison between my own parents and any "celestial parent" is one I would also question as well, because I am the only one I know who has provided for me in a tangiable way for every year since I lived independently - as such, "I" am everything to me, with no one else I can see who assisted in providing for me.
As a child yes, I had faith in my parents protection, source of sustinance etc, but for many years I've provided that myself so by default I can only have faith in the one provider I know, Me.
Ankhanu
LittleBlackKitten wrote:
It's referring to the childlike faith that young children have in their parents, and the attitude of non-seriousness and play that children have.

He wants His people to be reverent with great faith, like the faith a child has in their mommy or daddy, that to a child's world, their mommy and daddy are everything to them, their day, their life, their protection, their source of sustinance and of rest, of love, discipline, and of fun.

He wants His people to become simple in the respect that kids are; their lives are about learning, playing, and being guided through life, while not straying about and being of our own.


That's assuming a modern concept of childhood and being child-like. Modern attitudes towards being child-like and a child's innocence are pretty recent, less than 200 years old. Before that, children were regarded as lesser adults in many ways; their lives were certainly NOT about playing, learning and basking in their parents' love.
I don't think that the quote necessarily refers to childhood innocence, especially when you put in context the idea of original sin, which makes even children corrupt in the eyes of God.
ocalhoun
Ankhanu wrote:

That's assuming a modern concept of childhood and being child-like. Modern attitudes towards being child-like and a child's innocence are pretty recent, less than 200 years old.


A relevant concept here would be the zen idea of the child's mind/beginner's mind.
"In the beginner's mind, there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few."
"The child's mind is like an empty cup, and can be filled with new ideas, but the adult's mind is like a full cup, and any new ideas added to it will overflow and be wasted."
The idea being that even the most experienced people should keep a child's/beginner's openness and creativity/imagination.

I think that sheds some light upon the 'become as young children' part.
Ankhanu
Aye, that's a good interpretation, and holds more weight in light of the cultural context in which it was written.
deanhills
I like the idea of children being innocent, and having open minds. They also have lots of faith, don't harbour grudges, and get over upsets almost immediately.
Bikerman
Children certainly hold grudges. The fact that they are trusting (have faith) is probably evolutionary. In prehistory the child would have to trust the parent or they would probably die. Trust is therefore a survival trait and selected for.
watersoul
Bikerman wrote:
Children certainly hold grudges. The fact that they are trusting (have faith) is probably evolutionary. In prehistory the child would have to trust the parent or they would probably die. Trust is therefore a survival trait and selected for.


Going back to the OP's original question, I suspect the original author of the biblical verse would want everyone to have that childlike trust/faith in the "parent", inspired by the added fear of death or pain if they lack the trust. That would definitely improve the continuing membership of the organisation if it is possible to artificially create a childlike trust in converted adults.
It would definitely be part of my business plan if I were responsible for the marketing of the belief.
If I can make the consumer/worshipper believe that a questioning mind is not acceptable to join the club but instead, a childlike innocence is the way forward, of course it will help in keeping my flock under control if they conform to my predetermined conditions.
c'tair
deanhills wrote:
I like the idea of children being innocent, and having open minds. They also have lots of faith, don't harbour grudges, and get over upsets almost immediately.


I don't know man, I've seen some children act in heart-breaking cruel ways. And they were normal, from normal families and you'd never expect them to do brutal stuff to animals, but they did. For amusement Shocked
Bikerman
watersoul wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
Children certainly hold grudges. The fact that they are trusting (have faith) is probably evolutionary. In prehistory the child would have to trust the parent or they would probably die. Trust is therefore a survival trait and selected for.


Going back to the OP's original question, I suspect the original author of the biblical verse would want everyone to have that childlike trust/faith in the "parent", inspired by the added fear of death or pain if they lack the trust. That would definitely improve the continuing membership of the organisation if it is possible to artificially create a childlike trust in converted adults.
It would definitely be part of my business plan if I were responsible for the marketing of the belief.
If I can make the consumer/worshipper believe that a questioning mind is not acceptable to join the club but instead, a childlike innocence is the way forward, of course it will help in keeping my flock under control if they conform to my predetermined conditions.

Yes, this is a tactic seen often in organisations. Why did doctors write prescriptions in latin until very recently? Why did the Royal Family cultivate an air of mystery and rely on archaic ceremony?
Ankhanu
Aye, it seems that the idea of child-like trust is paramount to the meaning of this passage. Trust is a super handy tool for any organization, religious or otherwise, and is the foundation of continued support.

deanhills wrote:
I like the idea of children being innocent, and having open minds. They also have lots of faith, don't harbour grudges, and get over upsets almost immediately.


Spend more time around children. Children are, really, no different than adults. Many have very complex psyches with all kinds of strengths and hangups. They might be slightly more open minded than adults, but don't let it fool you, many are VERY rigid in their outlooks and beliefs. They can also be very spiteful, and definitely can harbour grudges.
deanhills
Ankhanu wrote:
Spend more time around children. Children are, really, no different than adults. Many have very complex psyches with all kinds of strengths and hangups. They might be slightly more open minded than adults, but don't let it fool you, many are VERY rigid in their outlooks and beliefs. They can also be very spiteful, and definitely can harbour grudges.
Totally agreed. I probably should have made it small children, from baby to 7 years perhaps, but even with them they are human and there are some that come with natural spite, jealousy, the whole bag of negative goodies that are perfected during adulthood.
Ankhanu
deanhills wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:
Spend more time around children. Children are, really, no different than adults. Many have very complex psyches with all kinds of strengths and hangups. They might be slightly more open minded than adults, but don't let it fool you, many are VERY rigid in their outlooks and beliefs. They can also be very spiteful, and definitely can harbour grudges.
Totally agreed. I probably should have made it small children, from baby to 7 years perhaps, but even with them they are human and there are some that come with natural spite, jealousy, the whole bag of negative goodies that are perfected during adulthood.


Age qualification doesn't matter, really. Babies can be cruel, and definitely preschool through school aged children. Children are just human, it's right, but a lot of the idea of the innocence of children simply stems from their ignorance of certain concepts that we, as adults, culturally find questionable. They don't know those concepts, but they're not innocent in many respects.
ujjawall
It would definitely be part of my business plan if I were responsible for the marketing of the belief.
If I can make the consumer/worshipper believe that a questioning mind is not acceptable to join the club but instead, a childlike innocence is the way forward, of course it will help in keeping my flock under control if they conform to my predetermined conditions.
ujjawall
I don't think that the quote necessarily refers to childhood innocence, especially when you put in context the idea of original sin, which makes even children corrupt in the eyes of God. Shocked Shocked Laughing Laughing Cool
Bikerman
ujjawall wrote:
It would definitely be part of my business plan if I were responsible for the marketing of the belief.
If I can make the consumer/worshipper believe that a questioning mind is not acceptable to join the club but instead, a childlike innocence is the way forward, of course it will help in keeping my flock under control if they conform to my predetermined conditions.

Very revealing metaphor I have always thought..the notion of the flock of sheep and the shepherd.....
A shepherd is someone who raises pretty stupid animals until they are ready for the slaughter. The message would seem to be that humans are stupid, can't survive without someone to care for them, and should simply stop bleating, trust the man in charge and wait patiently for death....
This would seem to fit with the OP - stay childlike and innocent. Don't question or act independently without checking with the 'parents/shepherd'. Don't wander off and get 'lost'.
jeffryjon
If we accept in faith that God is all-knowing then we are by comparison as children. We have ideas, sure - and many of them are right though only within the limitations we have accepted.

There are many aspects to the whole child thing and not just with knowledge of things.

In most cases (sadly not all) the child has an expectation that the parent can anticipate its needs so that when the child makes a valid request that need can be met. The child doesn't normally worry about providing for itself as the parent takes care of all that. These sorts of childlike relationships are not based on mere 'sheep-mentality' in the sense of being kept for slaughter. I always understood that the sheep references were made in the sense of the shepherd keeping the sheep safe from predators (who would undoubtedly, as the name suggests, take away their lives prematurely).

@ Bikerman
Governments and institutes are possibly acting as shepherds. Of course there are cases where this position is abused, though it's normally accepted that they're not lining us up for slaughter.

In the great scheme of things I see the original post as a reference to trusting in the way you would have as a small child.
Bikerman
jeffryjon wrote:
@ Bikerman
Governments and institutes are possibly acting as shepherds. Of course there are cases where this position is abused, though it's normally accepted that they're not lining us up for slaughter.
No Government or institution I have ever heard of would claim to be a 'shepherd'. The word may be used in the verb form - 'shepherd the children whilst on school trips' for example - meaning to steer someone away from a particular danger/obstacle, but not in the noun form. A school would never claim to act as a shepherd, and nor would any institution I can think of, for the simple reason that people are well aware what shepherds do...raise stupid animals for slaughter.
ocalhoun
Bikerman wrote:
A school would never claim to act as a shepherd, and nor would any institution I can think of,

Odd... I can think of one certain institution that would...
Quote:
for the simple reason that people are well aware what shepherds do...raise stupid animals for slaughter.

Well, also wool, but yes.
jeffryjon
Bikerman wrote:
jeffryjon wrote:
@ Bikerman
Governments and institutes are possibly acting as shepherds. Of course there are cases where this position is abused, though it's normally accepted that they're not lining us up for slaughter.
No Government or institution I have ever heard of would claim to be a 'shepherd'. The word may be used in the verb form - 'shepherd the children whilst on school trips' for example - meaning to steer someone away from a particular danger/obstacle, but not in the noun form. A school would never claim to act as a shepherd, and nor would any institution I can think of, for the simple reason that people are well aware what shepherds do...raise stupid animals for slaughter.


It's quite obvious that I'm using the word shepherd in the wider sense as I perceive it as being used in the Christian Bible. The governments often tell/advise their people about the best way to live their lives. This is a form of 'shepherding'. Jesus was generally speaking with a high number of farmers and fishermen and the comments made were likely tailored to their understanding.
deanhills
Bluedoll wrote:
The universe is a big place and we stand small in comparison yet . .

Quote:
in time the followers come near to Jesus and ask, “who really is greatest in all the domain?”
So calling a young child near to them he says, “truly, unless you turn around become as young children, you will by no other means even enter into the domain.” - out of Matthew 18


What do you think this means?
The message everywhere in Matthew is that one has to let go of all one's baggage, both physically and mentally. Probably includes letting go of grudges, the way small children can do. They don't seem to have much of memories. The one moment they are upset with a person, the next moment all has been forgotten.
jeffryjon
Yes I like that Deanhills though I do believe it goes further than that. Many children also have dreams of becoming something great (defined by themselves of course), though once they become adult-erated they often settle for themselves being second-best or worse. A childlike (not childish) approach in all ways can allow us to break the bonds that bind us as set by society. Most children can see themselves as doctors, great scientists, sports people, etc, though many lose that childlike belief and become much the same as their parents. When 'God' inspires us with ideas of great things and wonders, how many tie themselves down with pseudo-logic and belief these things cannot be achieved by themselves.
deanhills
jeffryjon wrote:
A childlike (not childish) approach in all ways can allow us to break the bonds that bind us as set by society. Most children can see themselves as doctors, great scientists, sports people, etc, though many lose that childlike belief and become much the same as their parents. When 'God' inspires us with ideas of great things and wonders, how many tie themselves down with pseudo-logic and belief these things cannot be achieved by themselves.
Agreed. But do you think this was what was meant in the context it was said in the Bible?
jeffryjon
My interpretation of the Bible differs quite substantially from mainstream religion in many aspects. I've found that many statements have layers within layers of meaning. For example things like 'suffer the children to come unto me' as meaning carry the inner child to come unto who you really are. This combined with the commandment to hold no other god before me (lower case me and god), I take as meaning by accessing your inner child you access and promote the inner god. Remember Jesus referring to a script familiar to the people of the time that 'Ye are all gods'. I don't perceive God as merely an entity, though He can be that, but as an entirety in and of which we are all part. The inner child as the modernists like to call it (and don't mean this in an airy-fairy way) is the root of our success.

In short, I believe the context of the Bible meant what I said in the previous post and far more.
deanhills
jeffryjon wrote:
In short, I believe the context of the Bible meant what I said in the previous post and far more.
Understood. Great if it works for you in that way. At least the text is a source of inspiration for many people, who differ in their interpretation of the text, but perhaps the differences are not as important as the inspiration it provides.
Alerrandre
some people still think we are alone in this whole universe.
ocalhoun
Alerrandre wrote:
some people still think we are alone in this whole universe.


Well, until we can communicate with 'someone else', we are alone...

If there are two prisoners in solitary confinement cells right next to each other, they are both still quite alone, even though they're not 'alone in the prison'.
agbor
1.Blessed is the man
who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked
or stand in the way of sinners
or sit in the seat of mockers.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
and on his law he meditates day and night.
3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither.
Whatever he does prospers.
May the lord help us.
kentchui
just my size
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