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Add a rule?





LittleBlackKitten
Can we possibly add a general grammar and spelling rule? I don't want people to spend an hour proofreading their posts, but on the same level, topic titles such as "Tattoo's" and "what is love???????can u define it????" (Makes me feel dirty just posting it) reflects directly on the assumed intelligence and laziness of the entire forum. It's not that hard for people to proofread their posts and convert "Tattoo's" to "Tattoos" or "what is love???????can u define it?????" to "What is love? Can you define it?" (which was posted in the wrong forum and was blatantly misspelled - you can't honestly tell me that person can't use the shift key and doesn't know how to spell "you"). Laziness and unintelligence isn't an image we want to portray, so I vote we add a rule along the lines of "All posts must be to the best of your abilities spelled and punctuated properly, and contain no error." Or something like that which suggests putting an effort into your posts and not get away with "u" and such nonsense.
ocalhoun
Preventing people from converting 'you' to 'u', at least in topic titles... possible perhaps.
(Though I don't see why a topic attempting to define love would be misplaced in the philosophy forum...)

Preventing people from using an apostrophe to pluralize? Absolutely impossible.
Ankhanu
These are all pet peeves of mine too... and the love thread's first post is unintelligible; it was painful to "read"... but in honesty, I don't think there's really a way to properly police this sort of thing.

I agree that it makes Frihost look like 4chan's slow little brother, but, what can seriously be done about it?
Bondings
We don't allow this or at least try to take action and give a warning to those users. However that's a lot of work and doesn't always happen and a lot of users take offense to it.

By the way, about the apostrophe, it's like ocalhoun mentioned. That's a common spelling mistake. At least for the "u" kind of posts, if the user wants he can improve it. Avoiding real spelling mistakes is rather hard for non-native English speakers/writers. (In Dutch the correct spelling would be tattoo's, to give an example.)
Ghost Rider103
The rule is actually already in place and has been for some time.

You can view it here: http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-42680.html

Though like Bondings said, it is quite a difficult rule to enforce. I've seen some posts that are horrible and would take quite a while for a moderator to change and make it correct.

There is a lot of information regarding rules on Frihost that aren't in the official announcement. There are also a lot of other good threads in there with good information. Such as the break down of the ranking system.
LittleBlackKitten
That's why I termed it the way I did, with the "to the best of your ability".

If you want a moderator willing to edit minor spelling, grammar, and punctuation mistakes, I volunteer.
shinodan
Not everyone is as well educated as some.

If your efficent in your grammar, but just cant be bothered, then thats different but i dont think you should be penalised if you innocently cant spell.

like me. Razz
LittleBlackKitten
I didn't mean to intend a penalixation, not in the slightest. I moreover meant for it to be a rule to be followed to the best of abilities, not something where people get in TROUBLE. I don't mind editing random topics that I find. The only punishment, if any, would be a moderator edited your topic.

Now in the instance of blatant laziness and clear violation of the rules because of lack of will to edit or change their style, in the case of a few posts with "u, r, 4, da," and "leet" speak, that deserves punishment.

Furthermore, those learning english would be moreso confused by "do u no th muffin man, yo?" or "is god reel?" or "tattoo's" leading those to believe that it is correct? I think upholding a basics sense of EFFORT is the focus, not "Type it perfectly, or you will be penalized!!!!" more like, "Try your best, and if you can't help it, that's okay! You're trying. Just don't be lazy about it!"

I guess the air of what I meant was a little off...
Ankhanu
shinodan wrote:
Not everyone is as well educated as some.


Anyone educated in English at all has been presented with at least basic understanding of grammar and spelling; those educated primarily in English really have no excuse, grammar is a standard part of the curriculum all the way through school.
deanhills
For me there are two kinds of people who post with poor grammar and spelling. Those who obviously know better, and are either lazy, or don't care. They are quite easy to spot and probably need gentle prodding. Then there are also those who are obviously not English, and quite brave to post. It's always nice to see good English, but I find the written English of people who are obviously not English very interesting and would rather encourage them to write, rather than inhibit them by criticizing them too much. Unless their English is comletely unrecognizable (and I have seen the odd posting like that) maybe they just need some gentle help.

In addition to poor grammar and spelling, my irritation in the main is with those who make a posting that contains just one word. Such as for example: "No!" Or a one-liner of only a few words, not explaining what the words are about. Surely those should not be counted as posts, and spam-canned?
ocalhoun
LittleBlackKitten wrote:
That's why I termed it the way I did, with the "to the best of your ability".

If you want a moderator willing to edit minor spelling, grammar, and punctuation mistakes, I volunteer.


Idea
There could be a whole new staff position and rank for it!
"Official Grammar Nazi" ^.^
LittleBlackKitten
LOL! I would fill that title well methinks.

"NO post for you!"
watersoul
Ankhanu wrote:
shinodan wrote:
Not everyone is as well educated as some.


Anyone educated in English at all has been presented with at least basic understanding of grammar and spelling; those educated primarily in English really have no excuse, grammar is a standard part of the curriculum all the way through school.


Not always, I don't remember being taught what a noun or adjective was, I found out myself...I don't remember being taught "joined up" handwriting either - and I still can't do it.

I went to a terrible "comprehensive" school which in my opinion summed up the educational standards of 1980's Britain - pretty bad.

I went to uni at a late stage in my life and studied environmental chemistry which didn't depend on grammar or punctuation to get my 2:1, just knowledge of the facts. Before we get all sanctimonious about apostrophes (apostrophe's) etc, remember that the exchange of reliable information is not always all about the pefect way it is delivered grammatically, but more the message behind the text.
ocalhoun
watersoul wrote:
remember that the exchange of reliable information is not always all about the pefect way it is delivered grammatically, but more the message behind the text.

That's true.
I think the moderators and staff should only get involved when the way it is delivered grammatically obscures the message behind the text.
Vrythramax
The fact remains that there is an existing rule for "proper grammer", but given the fact that many of our users don't speak, read, or type in english, it is exceedingly difficult to moderate those texts. They are doing the best they can. I myself am a prime example...english is not my native language. I make very common grammatical errors.

Point being...if someone is belating the forums with deliberate "leet speak" or something of that nature, it's easy to moderate...but what of the others that make honest mistakes?

The bottom line is that we all (even the users) must be tolerant of some mistakes...as long as they ARE mistakes. Smile
Bondings
Vrythramax wrote:
I myself am a prime example...english is not my native language.

Now you made me curious. I always thought English was your native language.
Bikerman
LittleBlackKitten wrote:
LOL! I would fill that title well methinks.

"NO post for you!"

The problem with this is that you would then set yourself up for the gammar nazi treatment from others....
ie how many mistakes here?
http://www.frihost.com/forums/vp-992551.html#992551
Vrythramax
Bondings wrote:
Vrythramax wrote:
I myself am a prime example...english is not my native language.

Now you made me curious. I always thought English was your native language.


Irish Gaelic is my native. It was all I spoke for the first of my life, then my family immigrated to the US and I had to learn English. I could speak a smattering of english before we came here, but only select phrases and the like. Now it seems that gaelic is my second language...I rarely have the chance to speak it unless I travel home.

Such is life Sad
mahirh
LittleBlackKitten wrote:
That's why I termed it the way I did, with the "to the best of your ability".

If you want a moderator willing to edit minor spelling, grammar, and punctuation mistakes, I volunteer.


then, many people will not even care for proper grammer because they will think , its not their job to follow grammar , its the moderator's job
deanhills
ocalhoun wrote:
LittleBlackKitten wrote:
That's why I termed it the way I did, with the "to the best of your ability".

If you want a moderator willing to edit minor spelling, grammar, and punctuation mistakes, I volunteer.


Idea
There could be a whole new staff position and rank for it!
"Official Grammar Nazi" ^.^
Good point Smile What would also be interesting is what LittleBlackKitten would consider good spelling, grammar and punctuation to be.

At any rate, I like the little less than perfect spelling, grammar and punctuation. And also agree with Ocalhoun that as long as it does not blur the meaning of what the person is trying to convey, and it does not hit a person in the face, that there is no real problem with it.
Bikerman
Speaking as someone who was called a bigot for pointing out poor use of English, I can say that some users definitely do take offence when mistakes are pointed-out.
I am also conscious that some posters don't have English as their first language, and I think that it would be very harsh to point out errors in their postings (unless they rendered the posting illegible, or seriously changed the obviously intended meaning).
I DO change grammar/spelling in the titles of threads where I notice errors, and I know that other moderators do the same. We don't catch them all, but we do our best Smile
deanhills
Bikerman wrote:
I DO change grammar/spelling in the titles of threads where I notice errors, and I know that other moderators do the same. We don't catch them all, but we do our best Smile
Now that IS great, as nothing more irritating than typographical or spelling errors in headings and those do really matter. Also great that the moderators are lenient with those who debate, whether English is their first, second or third language, as I have noticed that those with English as a first language can also have a slip now and then, especially when they are posting in the late hours of night or doing all nighters, or perhaps are writing under the influence of something or the other ... Smile Must say however that those who really take trouble with their writing, as for example Ankhanu does (and some others as well) really motivates and inspires. The more we can have of that quality, the more it would motivate others to take more care with their writing. The classic situation of motivating by example to rectify rather than compelling by sanction.
LittleBlackKitten
Chris: My post might have a minor error or three, but I tried my best, used punctuation where I felt appropriate, and spelled to the best of my ability (there is no spell check or word on the school's computers, so unless I get permission to download I'm on my own there, as opposed to my pc which has Firefox and right click dictionary). I would not correct someone's post like my own. However, if I saw someone had spelled "learnd", I would simply correct it as 9 times out of ten it would be a typo and have a moderation message such as "Edited by LittleBlackKitten for a typo" and leave it be. Now, if I found a post so bad I can't even tell what the message is, I would PM the member with a quote of their post and say "Hi, I wasn't sure what you meant by your post: (quote). Would you mind explaining it, so I can fix it so others can understand, too?" that way it is not confrontational, and it doesn't quite say "you typed that wrong, you're such a pain, making me fix that". I know what to say and how when being gentle is absolute; t'was part of my training as a securoty officer.

So, Chris, while I too make mistakes, and I readily admit that, I would in all seriousness not ACT like a Grammar Nazi; I would moreover be gentle and go "hey, I didn't quite catch that..." rather than "you spelled that wrong. I fixed it."

@mahrih: I would not word it in a way that would come off as me fixing everything they're doing; rather, I would be focused on helping them recognize when they do. If they become lazy and blatantly abusing the moderator in question for his or her duty and violating the rules regularly, I would be more inclined to mention it to someone more in charge than myself, and let them work out the punishment for repeatedly breaking the rules. I'm well aware my job is fixing and editing only; not reprimandation.

@deanhills/ocalhoun: I am aware people can be sensitive about it; that is why I would intend to be gentle about it, and not correct simple little things that are obviously just a failed attempt at spelling correctly or following the confusing rules of english; however, when it gets to the point where people are going "...huuuuh?" about someone's post, then yeah, I will step in and be gentle about it.

@Vrythramax: Sláinte. I almost misread the list and was going to put "Póg mo thóin!" before I realized it was the wrong one! xD Definetly not the one I wanna say...
Bikerman
LittleBlackKitten wrote:
Chris: My post might have a minor error or three, but I tried my best, used punctuation where I felt appropriate, and spelled to the best of my ability (there is no spell check or word on the school's computers, so unless I get permission to download I'm on my own there, as opposed to my pc which has Firefox and right click dictionary). I would not correct someone's post like my own. However, if I saw someone had spelled "learnd", I would simply correct it as 9 times out of ten it would be a typo and have a moderation message such as "Edited by LittleBlackKitten for a typo" and leave it be. Now, if I found a post so bad I can't even tell what the message is, I would PM the member with a quote of their post and say "Hi, I wasn't sure what you meant by your post: (quote). Would you mind explaining it, so I can fix it so others can understand, too?" that way it is not confrontational, and it doesn't quite say "you typed that wrong, you're such a pain, making me fix that". I know what to say and how when being gentle is absolute; t'was part of my training as a securoty officer.
I intended no criticism of your posting, just an illustration of the fact that we all make mistakes.
I think that the example of correction you list is one that I would find unnecessary. Most users make typos and this is generally accepted and ignored. If you start to correct them then there will be a mass of corrections and messages in most forums methinks....
Quote:
So, Chris, while I too make mistakes, and I readily admit that, I would in all seriousness not ACT like a Grammar Nazi; I would moreover be gentle and go "hey, I didn't quite catch that..." rather than "you spelled that wrong. I fixed it."
I didn't say, or mean to imply, that you would be a 'nazi'. The problem is, as I said above, the corrections would come to dominate the thread, and you would also find little sub-threads developing which discussed the spellings and sidetracked from the OP....

I presume the school uses IE ? One thing you could try would be to download ISpell and run it. When it asks for an installation directory, point it to your own workspace on the network (presuming you have a user area).
http://www.iespell.com/download.php
watersoul
Just another point to consider, which version of English are we all using, British or American?
Major spelling differences between the two:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences
LittleBlackKitten
Chris; I'm aware you weren't criticizing me, I did however feel it necessary to reply to your comments, as is customary on a forum. If I were offended in any way, you would know about it, and as a matter of fact, you're not so bad when you're not arguing or confronting people.

What I meant by editing typos like that, I meant posts that had, like, 30 of them, where the user just didn't proofread. I sometimes fail to proorfread my chapters when I'm writing my online stories, but I generally edit them when someone points it out to me. I wouldn't bother with one or two typos, that's ludacris and would belittle everyone on the board and is unreasonable; I meant just the mid to worst cases violating the laws of English or posts no one can really understand.

As for the theory that it would overtake the forums, if that happens, it's due to laziness, not a lack of ability, and I would make a staff topic or whatever to ask others to deal with it, as it wouldn't be my job to punish, I just correct. I think a little gentle nudge in the right direction will help, especially with the worst cases.

watersoul: Being half English myself, I would likely correct to one of the two; but I'm not anal about HOW it's spelled, as long as the general idea is understood. Even I'm known to let out the rare non-capitalized name title like calgary alberta or slip out the rare "innit" Laughing
Bikerman
Quote:
Chris; I'm aware you weren't criticizing me, I did however feel it necessary to reply to your comments, as is customary on a forum. If I were offended in any way, you would know about it, and as a matter of fact, you're not so bad when you're not arguing or confronting people.
IE when I am not posting on philosophy or science. The reason is that philosophy and science require argument and confrontation - thesis+anti-thesis = synthesis. Science works by refuting hypotheses and this is often done very aggressively (but not personally). Anyone who has submitted a paper to a professional journal will tell you that it can be a harrowing experience. My postings on Frih are mild in comparison.

On the main point - I think the best thing to do is notify a mod, via the report button, if you feel that a particular posting really needs 'cleaning up'.
(I check the reports quite frequently and deal with any outstanding ones when possible, and I know other mods do the same, so it wouldn't be long before any such issue was evaluated and, if necessary, dealt with).
LittleBlackKitten
Still, it would take workload off of other mods to have someone specifically for editing bad posts.
deanhills
Bikerman wrote:
IE when I am not posting on philosophy or science.
Not true. I've seen lots of confrontational type postings (being at the receiving end of them) in even the "General Chat" Forum. Also the Suggestion, World News and Politics Forums.

But have to agree with LittleBlackKitten, as what she said went through my mind as well during the last week of postings. I for example particularly liked this posting of yours as there is more flexibility in it than what I have been accustomed to - I also completely agree with what you said Smile :
Quote:
Speaking as someone who was called a bigot for pointing out poor use of English, I can say that some users definitely do take offence when mistakes are pointed-out.
I am also conscious that some posters don't have English as their first language, and I think that it would be very harsh to point out errors in their postings (unless they rendered the posting illegible, or seriously changed the obviously intended meaning).
I DO change grammar/spelling in the titles of threads where I notice errors, and I know that other moderators do the same. We don't catch them all, but we do our best

LittleBlackKitten wrote:
Still, it would take workload off of other mods to have someone specifically for editing bad posts.
It would have to be more than one person to pick up on "bad posts", as not all of the Moderators post in all of the Forums. So perhaps Bikerman's suggestion to use the Report Button is still the better one of all of the suggestions in this thread.
Bluedoll
Ludacris – littl’blacky In my opinion these kind of words if not overdone should always remain unedited if simply because they are creative and amusing.
The reason is that philosophy and science require argument and confrontation - thesis+anti-thesis = synthesis. – Bikerman For science yes for philosophy no. I will continue to challenge this as thesis in itself. And is not philosophy, philosophy/religion?

Sad I think there has to done been overall maybe perhaps somewhat given whatever some latitude to freedom of expression? HuH?
For example, I consider what I write is really mine, even if it is not so dang good you know, in postings, and it is almost like some kind of copyright infringement for someone to go and change it. I feel my post should never be edited unless I allow it. If I saw someone editing my posts without my approval like some rule catching over bearing senior adviser, I would be immediately out the door and quickly because when it comes to grammorism mr, miss or mrs. Editor in Chief – you are messing with me words so watchit!

Smile On the other hand, as a Frihost service, this is an excellent suggestion. Just not as a rule I think. To have someone read and improve my writing would be an honour, a real treat for me and very much appreciated. I hope you see the distinction.

As for ‘bad’ posts. What the rig are u 2 talkin bout? I have seen some wild ones on the internet and to have a better standard than most is to define an A plus. Generally I am impressed with a lot of the posts in the forum in regard to grammar and spelling but improvement is always, welcome.
I am really all for this suggestion just not as another rule or moderation app.
Rolling Eyes

REWARD system?
Bikerman
Bluedoll wrote:
Ludacris – littl’blacky In my opinion these kind of words if not overdone should always remain unedited if simply because they are creative and amusing.
The reason is that philosophy and science require argument and confrontation - thesis+anti-thesis = synthesis. – Bikerman For science yes for philosophy no. I will continue to challenge this as thesis in itself. And is not philosophy, philosophy/religion?
You have no way to challenge it - since challenging it requires argument.
Quote:
Sad I think there has to done been overall maybe perhaps somewhat given whatever some latitude to freedom of expression? HuH?
For example, I consider what I write is really mine, even if it is not so dang good you know, in postings, and it is almost like some kind of copyright infringement for someone to go and change it. I feel my post should never be edited unless I allow it. If I saw someone editing my posts without my approval like some rule catching over bearing senior adviser, I would be immediately out the door and quickly because when it comes to grammorism mr, miss or mrs. Editor in Chief – you are messing with me words so watchit!
Unfortunately when you sign-up to Frih (as with all similar systems) you loose any right to copyright and you agree that your postings are subject to such changes as moderators see fit. If you don't like that then you shouldn't have signed-up to the TOS.
In fact the moderation team rarely change postings. If a posting is judged out of order then it will normally be removed. In some cases it may be that a single word or phrase is the problem and a moderator may change that word or phrase rather than remove the entire posting - and they will always say that this has been done at the end of the posting.
Bluedoll
@Bikerman
Ok, it does sound like editing is applied only in certain cases and then noted, sounds reasonable. Not sure if you are using reversed logic on me or simply not understanding what I am saying regarding synthesis. Yes, I could debate in a science thesis, though not sure I could stand up to you, if you were on the opposite side of the debate, in science, as your knowledge far exceeds mine in that area. As far as in religious subjects, there isn’t a need to challenge, if discussion is all you seek, but I can see you know this already. I can debate however that in religious topics synthesis is mostly being used exclusively and saying that is not the only possible conduct for those topics. There is an alternative. That was all I was indicating.
Bikerman
You didn't say 'religion' - you said 'philosophy'.

When there are two non-compatible viewpoints on any issue then there are two ways to proceed.
a) Accept the difference and leave it at that.
b) Argue the point and arrive at a conclusion (synthesis).

The former is fine but not really suitable for a debating forum such as this - that is a position more suited to personal blogs or personal webpages. The forums on Frihost are for debate, and when users post a point of view/opinion then other users are free to agree or disagree.
LittleBlackKitten
I will argue with you Chris that they're not all for DEBATE, but rather conversation, discussion, and general musing. Not everyone enjoys debate, some people get very offended by it; not everything is open for debate, and you would learn a very wise lesson if you were to consider such when you're outside Philosophy and Religion.

Bluedoll - please don't ever call me "Litt'lblacky" again - it sounds racist, and ghetto, and I am neither. I will report it next time. I do not go around calling you B-dawg or The B-doll, whether in jest, or not.
Bikerman
LittleBlackKitten wrote:
I will argue with you Chris that they're not all for DEBATE, but rather conversation, discussion, and general musing. Not everyone enjoys debate, some people get very offended by it; not everything is open for debate, and you would learn a very wise lesson if you were to consider such when you're outside Philosophy and Religion.
Discussion is simply another word for debate. If people wish to muse then people may wish to challenge that musing. If people are offended by debate then they are in the wrong place. Everything IS open for debate.*

* except moderation decision.
LittleBlackKitten
To debate means to argue - to discuss is to talk. There is a difference - and if you don't see a difference, than you have a serious issue, OR you just need to run for leader of the BC Liberal party.... Laughing
Bikerman
LittleBlackKitten wrote:
To debate means to argue - to discuss is to talk. There is a difference - and if you don't see a difference, than you have a serious issue, OR you just need to run for leader of the BC Liberal party.... Laughing

The dictionary disagrees:
Debate:
1. a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/debate

1. To deliberate on; consider.
2. To dispute or argue about.
3. To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally.
4. Obsolete. To fight or argue for or over.
http://www.answers.com/topic/debate

Discuss:
to consider or examine by argument, comment, etc.; talk over or write about, esp. to explore solutions; debate: to discuss the proposed law on taxes.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discuss

The word 'discuss' comes from Middle English - discussen (to examine), which in turn comes from the Latin discussus (past participle of discutere, to break up).
To discuss something is therefore to break it up and examine it - which is exactly what I do.

The difference between discuss and debate, insofar as there is a difference, is that debate is normally more formal, and discussion more informal.
LittleBlackKitten
I disagree with you and I will insist you not only just site your source as you did BUT that you compare it to at least 2 other sources PER WORD before I concede. It come off to me as the air of discussion is light and the air or debate is stronger, and that you're just using it to your benefit because you like destroying people's beliefs with your own "knowledge".

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=discuss

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=discussion

http://fatcampus.com/directives.htm


http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=debate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate



I see a huge difference.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/855051

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1060977/the_difference_between_a_debate_and.html
Bikerman
Using your own sources:
Discuss:
S: (n) discussion, give-and-take, word (an exchange of views on some topic) "we had a good discussion"

(ie you put your view and I put mine and we see where it goes).

Debate:
# S: (n) argument, argumentation, debate (a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal) "the argument over foreign aid goes on and on"


As for the wiki citation - look up discuss and you will find that it directs you to the page you cited on debate.

The answerbag citation is correct, but only says that a discussion NEED NOT have oppositional points. Discussions may or may not have opposing points. Where there are no opposing points then, as I said earlier, that is best suited to a blog or personal webspace. Frihost is a forum where everyone has a right to post their opinion - whether or not they agree with a point.

The associatedcontent citation only considers the narrow definition of FORMAL debate and does not consider the other definitions/uses.
LittleBlackKitten
THERE YOU GO Chris, pick up the ONE sliver of nickel in the mile of steel! Good job defending yourself and proving yourself right!

Or not.

Obviously you're out of steam on this one, Chris.

Please lock this.
Bikerman
One sliver? I count at least 8 sources to date - including some that you chose, not me.

Not enough?

Discuss:
to consider or examine by argument, comment, etc.; talk over or write about, esp. to explore solutions; debate: to discuss the proposed law on taxes.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discuss

to investigate by reasoning or argument
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discuss
Quote:
Entry: discuss
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: talk over with another
Synonyms: altercate, argue, bounce off, canvass, compare notes, confabulate, confer, consider, consult with, contend, contest, converse, debate, deliberate, descant, discept, discourse about, dispute, dissert, dissertate, examine, exchange views on, explain, figure, get together, go into, groupthink, hash over, hold forth, jaw, kick about, knock around, moot, put heads together, reason about, review, sift, take up, thrash out, toss around, ventilate, weigh
http://thesaurus.com/browse/discuss

I will agree that the difference is actually more than formality. I would say that discuss is a wider term which includes debate.

I will lock this topic - because I think it has served its purpose and is now wandering off into debate on other things (for which I am partly to blame).
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