FRIHOST FORUMS SEARCH FAQ TOS BLOGS COMPETITIONS
You are invited to Log in or Register a free Frihost Account!


Will it be possible to end Child labours ever?





bukaida
In the third world countries where the population is growing exponentialy, the people becomes poorer
everyday.For a poor family, every family member is a source of income (I have seen two months old babies being rented to professional beggers on daily basis, so that public sympathy becomes more and also the income). The general rule is that the progress of the country is heavily hampered if the future generation cannot be built properly. But I donot think it can be ended in highly populated and economicaly backword countries.
Arty
Sure, population control and better economic management.
chatrack
HI,

in a well developed country, child labor can be banned strictly by law.
Bluedoll
This is so sad and to see this first hand must be extreme heart wrenching for you? I can not begin to even imagine how I would react. Professional begging is not a term I am familiar with. Could you possibly, or someone else possibly explain to me what this is?

Children in peril is a future very bleak and brings despair into the present. I am not sure where all the solutions lie. I have sponsored a child with the humanitarian organization world vision but this is only one small step and so much more is needed.

Would more cooperative community styles help this situation? Of course, I agree that sensible economic management is needed for anything to work.
watersoul
Child labour will only stop when my country and others in the "western" world accept that cheap clothes etc are only available by screwing the poor countries. Maybe one day we'll start paying the true price of the goods we buy and children won't be forced to work - or beg.

But as long as a free market exists, I don't see much changing soon. The rogue trader will always be around the corner selling similar items at half the price produced by poor exploited folk, and the "blind" or uncaring consumer will always be there to buy the goods.
Bikerman
Well put. I find myself in complete agreement with the previous posting.
This is worrying. Smile
deanhills
watersoul wrote:
Maybe one day we'll start paying the true price of the goods we buy and children won't be forced to work - or beg.
I don't agree with this. The real perpetrators are the ones who are exploiting the children and cashing in the profits. If the West should pay more for the goods, I'm almost certain that the same perpetrators will just pocket the difference.

Children have been exploited for centuries and centuries. And yes, in the developing countries it is awful, Mexico that I know of one of the worst. But some bad things are happening to children in the Western countries too, usually in the back streets where both children and grown ups are more or less coerced or forced into sweat shops, as well as darker professions such as prostitution and the drug trade.
Bikerman
If the west paid more for the goods then companies that did not employ children would be able to compete on price and there would be no incentive to use children at all.

If you buy a pair of jeans from a supermarket for $5 then you can be pretty sure that the worker who made those jeans was exploited, unless the supermarket is selling below cost price (which is illegal in Europe due to competition laws).

Quote:
But some bad things are happening to children in the Western countries too, usually in the back streets where both children and grown ups are more or less coerced or forced into sweat shops, as well as darker professions such as prostitution and the drug trade.
Examples?
Child labour is illegal in Europe and the penalties are severe. There is some child labour in a few European countries (Spain for example) but it is on a very small scale.
http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=child
watersoul
deanhills wrote:
watersoul wrote:
Maybe one day we'll start paying the true price of the goods we buy and children won't be forced to work - or beg.
I don't agree with this. The real perpetrators are the ones who are exploiting the children and cashing in the profits. If the West should pay more for the goods, I'm almost certain that the same perpetrators will just pocket the difference.

Children have been exploited for centuries and centuries. And yes, in the developing countries it is awful, Mexico that I know of one of the worst. But some bad things are happening to children in the Western countries too, usually in the back streets where both children and grown ups are more or less coerced or forced into sweat shops, as well as darker professions such as prostitution and the drug trade.


That may well be true, but right now, whether you like it or not, the price of our cheap goods today is solely on the backs of exploited poor people around the world.
Yes, if we paid a fair price there will always be some who won't pass it on to the workers, but to use your reasoning, we should just carry on paying under the odds as any change we make won't make a difference. Do you think the Fair Trade Foundation is pointless then? We may as well carry on enjoying the spoils of "slave" labour because if we pay more then the crooked bosses will just pocket the difference - what a disappointingly defeatist viewpoint.
speeDemon
Bluedoll wrote:
Professional begging is not a term I am familiar with. Could you possibly, or someone else possibly explain to me what this is?

Have you seen Slumdog millionaire? well, people in cities in India take in abandoned/lost children(or even kidnap them), and then somehow make them to beg. For increasing the 'profit' they might even handicap them on purpose, yes it happens. In case of infants, well women sit on the street begging, usually getting nothing, but if they have a crying malnourished baby in their arms, then it catches the attention of more people, and people, out of sympathy for the baby, give these women money. Sometimes small children (7-12years) carry around infants claiming to be their siblings as well.

There are a lot of movies which show a whole system of beggers, adding up to thousands of people, in just one city, and there are coordinators/managers who control the whole system. Beggers bring in the money on a daily basis, and just like any other job are payed a certain 'salary'. If you're not part of the system, then the people who are in it won't let you beg in their alotted area. You would ocassionaly see a scene in which some beggar would deny taking a small amount of money from a person, and only take bigger bills, and some beggars would also keep mobile phones. There is a lot of exaggeration in these movies, but that doesn't mean that it's fiction, these movies are largely true, and give you an idea about what's really going on.

This, I believe, has been termed as 'Professional Begging', as Begging has evolved into a profession.


To reply to the original post, well, yes child labour can be abolished, but it starts with your contribution towards it. People usually don't complain when they see a child working in a restraunt or any small shop or so. If you don't take a stand against it, then it won't fall...
standready
As long as there are scumbags on this planet, they will exploit others including children. Parents of the exploited children should be .... "taken care of".

@bluedoll: There are many professional beggars. Easier to beg for a handout than actually have job. Very interesting topic to search. If I could make 60k a year by begging - no, still could not lower myself.
c'tair
watersoul wrote:
Child labour will only stop when my country and others in the "western" world accept that cheap clothes etc are only available by screwing the poor countries. Maybe one day we'll start paying the true price of the goods we buy and children won't be forced to work - or beg.

But as long as a free market exists, I don't see much changing soon. The rogue trader will always be around the corner selling similar items at half the price produced by poor exploited folk, and the "blind" or uncaring consumer will always be there to buy the goods.


Exactly. The free market doesn't aim at anything other than... profit. So it's not wonder that if someone allows child labor - it rakes in a profit and thus is practiced without any ifs or buts.

It's sad that we consider ourselves so very civilized, but it turns out we sell our morality for worthless material possessions.
deanhills
watersoul wrote:
Do you think the Fair Trade Foundation is pointless then? We may as well carry on enjoying the spoils of "slave" labour because if we pay more then the crooked bosses will just pocket the difference - what a disappointingly defeatist viewpoint.
No, I don't. If that is what you are doing, then it is commendable and setting a good example to others. Everything obviously helps. What I was saying was that possibly it won't have that much of an effect on children in sweat shops in third world countries. The benefit will not be passed on to them. Much more is needed with education in their countries, regulations and diligent implementation and policing of those regulations to ensure that children are not exploited.

What about adults however, as those children grow up into adults that are still being exploited?

Interesting to learn about the Fair Trade Foundation. What would their approach be to importing cheap goods from China?
watersoul
deanhills wrote:
watersoul wrote:
Do you think the Fair Trade Foundation is pointless then? We may as well carry on enjoying the spoils of "slave" labour because if we pay more then the crooked bosses will just pocket the difference - what a disappointingly defeatist viewpoint.
No, I don't. If that is what you are doing, then it is commendable and setting a good example to others. Everything obviously helps. What I was saying was that possibly it won't have that much of an effect on children in sweat shops in third world countries. The benefit will not be passed on to them. Much more is needed with education in their countries, regulations and diligent implementation and policing of those regulations to ensure that children are not exploited.


I agree with you there, it's a much bigger issue than simple "point of sale" choices can change.

deanhills wrote:

What about adults however, as those children grow up into adults that are still being exploited?


True, and my thoughts are equally with all exploited workers - adults do have slightly more choice than children though usually, so my focus would always be on protecting children first.

deanhills wrote:

Interesting to learn about the Fair Trade Foundation. What would their approach be to importing cheap goods from China?



At the moment, Fairtrade products on sale in the UK cover this list...
Food products:
Bananas
Cocoa
Coffee
Dried Fruit
Fresh Fruit & Fresh Vegetables
Honey
Juices
Nuts/Oil Seeds/Oil
Quinoa
Rice
Spices
Sugar
Tea
Wine

Non-food products:
Beauty products
Cotton
Cut Flowers
Ornamental Plants
Sports Balls

...I'm sure if they could expand into clothing, they would, and I for one would definitely pay the extra $'s if I saw clothes on sale with this logo
deanhills
watersoul wrote:
...I'm sure if they could expand into clothing, they would, and I for one would definitely pay the extra $'s if I saw clothes on sale with this logo
I would have thought that the clothing industry especially would be villains for using child/adult labour in sweat shops. Especially those clothes that smell of chemicals, the cheap "Made in China" ones for example. The UAE is flooded with those items. I wonder whether children are provided with protective face covers, as working in those clothing factories have to be very nasty in terms of inhaling toxins from fabrics and sewing fabrics.
watersoul
Absolutely agree, and "Fairtrade" is involved in cotton sales, just what happens to the cotton after purchase (eg. the sweatshops where the cotton becomes clothing), is still an unregulated place of suffering for many. Hopefully this can change in the future but I won't expect it to happen too soon while the average consumer cares little about the source of their "bargain".
standready
deanhills wrote:
I wonder whether children are provided with protective face covers, as working in those clothing factories have to be very nasty in terms of inhaling toxins from fabrics and sewing fabrics.

I seriously doubt it. That would cost the factory money therefore cutting into their profits.
deanhills
standready wrote:
deanhills wrote:
I wonder whether children are provided with protective face covers, as working in those clothing factories have to be very nasty in terms of inhaling toxins from fabrics and sewing fabrics.

I seriously doubt it. That would cost the factory money therefore cutting into their profits.
Agreed. Even in the UAE I have seen instances of labourers working with toxic glue or paint, or spraying insecticides without face covering or protective gloves. I have done so many battles over that. These labourers seem to be just so anxious to have the job, get very upset with me for being upset as they are dead scared they will loose their jobs. So when one does interference, one has to do it very wisely and subtly. That is usually a big problem of course. We know these guys are being exploited and are in harm's way, but they also need that job as they are feeding their families with the little income they are receiving. Sort of a really very sad situation. Good part is that I have seen some changes, particularly as where I live the Municipality seems to be contracting out to companies for providing labourers, rather than employing the labourers themselves, so was delighted to see cleaners wearing protective face coverings when they are working on big cleaning jobs. Only the very poor sub-contractors who hire their labourers from strange sources, who are still not looking after their labourers. But who knows, that will hopefully be changing soon as the UAE is becoming much more environmentally aware and upgrading all its regulations.
watersoul
It seems like we've also got some dirty washing to sort out ourselves here in the UK:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-11615766
Quote:
Romanian children found working in Worcestershire field
The GLA said the workers were not adequately dressed for the cold

Seven Romanian children between the ages of nine and 16 have been found working in a field in Worcestershire.

The Gangmasters Licensing Authority (GLA) and West Mercia Police found the children with a group of adults in the field in the Malvern Hills district on Wednesday.

The children, some of whom were with their parents, were taken into police protection.
menino
Another reason for child labour, is poverty.
Even if you put an ambargo on products that have child labour associated with them, it will not solve the poverty problem of the children and their families.
The main reason for children working is to earn their bread, and in most cases, this is done literally, wherein, the children working get only their meals as payment.

I hope this to stop as well, but in a lot of 3rd world developing countries, one of the only ways for families to sustain themselves, is to make the children work and earn a little extra for the family, so that they can survive.

Even if education is given free, what would these families opt for, especially if they need to feed all their members?
deanhills
watersoul wrote:
It seems like we've also got some dirty washing to sort out ourselves here in the UK:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-11615766
Quote:
Romanian children found working in Worcestershire field
The GLA said the workers were not adequately dressed for the cold

Seven Romanian children between the ages of nine and 16 have been found working in a field in Worcestershire.

The Gangmasters Licensing Authority (GLA) and West Mercia Police found the children with a group of adults in the field in the Malvern Hills district on Wednesday.

The children, some of whom were with their parents, were taken into police protection.
There is plenty of this happening all over the West. Greed is probably everywhere, maybe even more so in the West. They are just a bit more subtle about it.
menino wrote:
Another reason for child labour, is poverty.
Even if you put an ambargo on products that have child labour associated with them, it will not solve the poverty problem of the children and their families.
The main reason for children working is to earn their bread, and in most cases, this is done literally, wherein, the children working get only their meals as payment.

I hope this to stop as well, but in a lot of 3rd world developing countries, one of the only ways for families to sustain themselves, is to make the children work and earn a little extra for the family, so that they can survive.

Even if education is given free, what would these families opt for, especially if they need to feed all their members?
Agreed Menino. And those jobs for children sometimes are their source of survival. Sort of a really bad situation. In a way if you buy those products, you are contributing to their survival as well. Life is really unfair as any sanctions usually impact the most vulnerable in the food chain, not really those guys who are exploiting children for cheap labour and who are really the target of the sanctions.

The part of the sanctions that are good however is that it makes the world aware, and also the country in which the child exploitation is happening. Once aware, there is a chance of politicians putting it on their agenda and get the ball rolling for making it an illegal practice or if already illegal, at least to police it more closely. One actually wonders after that what the alternative sources of survival of that family will be. Especially in India where the poor are really dirt poor.
LittleBlackKitten
It's slow going, and hard work, because fair trade means prices go way up and not everyone wants to bite the bullet. Everyone, myself included, ignore the reality of free trade, and buy the cheapest price that we can, kind of like blotting the sun out with one finger and going 'it's not there'. It's a sick reality that most people ignore, or just plain don't give a crap about, because they think that at least the kids are getting MONEY, so it's better than slave labor.

A sad reality is that even fair trade can be funding child labor, because all a company has to do is claim a remote unclaimed island, stick a plant on it, and call it USA or another abbreviation for USA and make the stickers say made in USA or CANADA or whathaveyou...It's perfectly legal, and people think that just because it says made in USA means a child didn't make it....Well, they probably did, if the price is anywhere under $15.
deanhills
LittleBlackKitten wrote:
Well, they probably did, if the price is anywhere under $15.
Well said, but I think this applies also to products over $15. Quite a large number of brand companies are doing the same thing. When we really think about it, most of everyone are exploiting everyone else. The rule of the game. Those who use and those who are being used. The exploiters and the exploited. Still, those who are trying to do something about it, who actually stand up and want to make a difference should be commended for their effort. I am certain they are making a difference in the right places from an awareness point of view.
Nameless
chatrack wrote:
in a well developed country, child labor can be banned strictly by law.

That's not the question. You can ban abusive behavior and you can petition about the free market and you can carefully research your own purchases but the fact of the matter is that there are people who are selfish pricks and ultimately nothing is going to stop them taking advantage of children or anyone else. Can you reduce it? Yes. But let's not kid ourselves here.

[/pessimistic rant of the daaaaay!]
jeffryjon
Preventing child labour in poor countries is no easy task and paying more in the west 'may' help but won't solve the problem as a whole. India, as one of the world's major employers of children also has the problems of a caste system.

Professional beggars will rent others babies and it's quite a lucrative source of income especially where there are tourists. I NEVER give money to beggars in India - NEVER - food yes, when I feel drawn, though my early experiences are that beggars would often take the food and throw it on the floor in disgust or walk away shouting abuse. You'll often find them full of alcohol late at night - and the town where I live in India they earn 4-10 times what a worker can make - and on the whole by exploiting women/kids. The babies earn best between 3-9 months, so neighbours can make quite a sum renting their kids out. Unfortunately, they often get pricked with safety pins to keep them crying - so the tourists (including Indian tourists) buy expensive powder milk which is then returned to the pharmacy who sold it etc etc. And yes - unfortunately these are well known and widely used scams - just rip open the seal on a milk container and watch the beggars faces.

Kids working in other areas of industry is commonly accepted here, including child home-helps. In fact it's perceived as something the nice, well-educated middle class are expected to do. Question anyone who's moved to the west and watch them hunt carefully for words before replying. Usually the children are taken from poor areas of India and rarely/never see the parents again. The new 'parents' will tell you how they're treated like their own but it doesn't take much observation to see that it's not true. This however has to be seen in a wider context. On my first trip to India 15 years back I was quite taken aback, but when you look at the alternatives for the kids, it could be considerably worse and very easily so. This part of child labour is unlikely to be solved fast as it runs all the way to the top.

Farms are big employers. We could solve this by paying more - whoops. Firstly people in the west think that all we have to do is pay more and the problem dries up - sorry to disappoint. Firstly foreigners CANNOT partake in farming in India - no matter what visa they may possess - so paying more helps somebody, though I'm sure the kids won't see much if any of it. Everything in India is about getting the cheapest possible deal when paying and the best possible price when selling and never let a bit of child labour come between a man and his Rupee. It's not everyone by any means but it is widespread and any criticism will cause you to be distanced very quickly. Those who care enough for the kids are already doing what they can to help.

Factories often subcontract to the cheapest tender which makes control very difficult even for a western company. You'd need a full time dedicated police force and that won't be easy to keep on-track. The standard here is to sweeten a police officer to turn a blind eye to almost anything. There are some honest cops and government officials though just get to know them to find out how difficult life can be for them at work.

India was recently estimated by IMF as having a conservative total of 52% of all transactions using 'black money' - and that's conservative. imagine how your country would operate under those conditions. Unfortunately, the problem with child labour is only going to be resolved when people who employ them are made to care. India has also totally refused to pressure the Swiss banks to reveal any details of Indian account holders. It's estimated again by IMF that there's enough to pay every man/woman and child in India over $3,000, though who would investigate is not an easy question to answer - even the big-shots tend to find where the 'shot' lands if they step out of line.

As a general rule you can use the following: The less a government wants to tell -and- the less it allows foreigners to make documentaries without permits -and- the less easy it makes it for their citizens to complain -and- the less publicly available are the complaints figures -then- that government has something to gain by keeping things that way.
standready
Nobody has mentioned the child labor that goes into making those very high priced sneakers. Where does all the money go? Someone care to break those cost down for me.
menino
Quote:
Especially in India where the poor are really dirt poor.


Not just India, Deanhills, but also China, where very young workers are paid very less to make clothes, and other material, which the developed countries buy.

Putting an embargo or restrictions on countries that employ child labour, will not help the poor, but make people aware of what is going on.

The real question is not where the money is going, and how much they are paid - the question, is how to help them?
I was thinking of free education, and allowances to families, as a kind of loan, but the amount needed for this kind of endeavor is mind boggling.

One of the good things happening with 3rd world countries, is micro loans, which was started by a smart guy in bangladesh, for which he got a nobel peace prize some time back. The idea is to put your land on kind of a mortgage, or even if you had some cattle, or just a cow, and put it on a micro loan, so that the poor could invest in themselves.
Still, rather than limit population growth, I think it is better to manage population growth, by means of setting up proper infrastructure and awareness, so that poor families can dig into the economy and share the wealth of the country along with its economy.
But this is an arduous task, and I do hope someone out there can find an answer to it soon.
bukaida
speeDemon wrote:
Bluedoll wrote:
Professional begging is not a term I am familiar with. Could you possibly, or someone else possibly explain to me what this is?

Have you seen Slumdog millionaire? well, people in cities in India take in abandoned/lost children(or even kidnap them), and then somehow make them to beg. For increasing the 'profit' they might even handicap them on purpose, yes it happens. In case of infants, well women sit on the street begging, usually getting nothing, but if they have a crying malnourished baby in their arms, then it catches the attention of more people, and people, out of sympathy for the baby, give these women money. Sometimes small children (7-12years) carry around infants claiming to be their siblings as well.

There are a lot of movies which show a whole system of beggers, adding up to thousands of people, in just one city, and there are coordinators/managers who control the whole system. Beggers bring in the money on a daily basis, and just like any other job are payed a certain 'salary'. If you're not part of the system, then the people who are in it won't let you beg in their alotted area. You would ocassionaly see a scene in which some beggar would deny taking a small amount of money from a person, and only take bigger bills, and some beggars would also keep mobile phones. There is a lot of exaggeration in these movies, but that doesn't mean that it's fiction, these movies are largely true, and give you an idea about what's really going on.

This, I believe, has been termed as 'Professional Begging', as Begging has evolved into a profession.


To reply to the original post, well, yes child labour can be abolished, but it starts with your contribution towards it. People usually don't complain when they see a child working in a restraunt or any small shop or so. If you don't take a stand against it, then it won't fall...


Yes, You have explained it right. Although most of the time these "Poverty Show" is exploited by the filmmakers to earn prizes.
Regarding the protest, I have protested a couple of times, but informed that it is their parents who have engaged them in this profession. A burning stomach only knows food. It doesnot care about all those big words like "Humanity", "Education" etc etc. Which parent doesnot want his child to have a better life than theirs? But poverty stops everything at the end of the day.

Also jeffryjon has made some interesting observations.
deanhills
menino wrote:
Quote:
Especially in India where the poor are really dirt poor.


Not just India, Deanhills, but also China, where very young workers are paid very less to make clothes, and other material, which the developed countries buy.
The reason why I referred to India is that there is a gigantic gap between those who are poor and those who are making it. In China I think there is more of an evenly balance but yes, of course there are many people who are exploited there as well. Think we had a thread a few months ago about the prevalence of suicides in the factories, hopelessness and despair. Not a very nice Government either. Oppressive and abusive.
jeffryjon
Here's an example of what happens with micro-loans - the new quick fix. I live in the state quoted in the article but there's more. The microloan scheme has encouraged poor people to come forward to authorized people who then pass on their details to other 'lenders'. These 'lenders' gain money to lend to the poor by operating high interest savings schemes with local business people. generally when they receive significantly more than with the banks, customers are just happy to deposit in these short-term investments. This problem is rife in the town where I live and even those I know well took some convincing that these investments are 'bad karma' (as I explained it to them). Andhra Pradesh has practically the highest farmer suicide rate in the country and with the exception of 2 cities, farming is pretty much all they have.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11669393
goutha
Children do work because their parents are poor, because their country is poor, because they have lost their parents, etc.

If we can resolve these problems, yes, child labour can be ended.
bukaida
goutha wrote:
Children do work because their parents are poor, because their country is poor, because they have lost their parents, etc.

If we can resolve these problems, yes, child labour can be ended.


Perhaps the simplest way to summarize the problem. In any developing country, there are only two classes--The poor & the Rich. There is no concept of middle class.
deanhills
bukaida wrote:
Perhaps the simplest way to summarize the problem. In any developing country, there are only two classes--The poor & the Rich. There is no concept of middle class.
Is that how it is in India? No middle class? Quite a number of my colleagues here in the UAE are from India, and I would have thought they were members of the middle class? They are not wealthy, but nor are they poor by UAE standards. Or do you think that they would be regarded wealthy by Indian standards?
jeffryjon
There is definitely a middle class in India and it amounts to about 60 million people. The difference in India compared to western countries is the middle class are on the whole wealthier by comparison to the middle classes in the west in terms of what they earn compared to what they need to spend.

To keep on track with the thread though, there are 2 sides to the poverty story and one which is rarely tackled is the poverty mindset. A self-made multi millionaire back in the 90's once told me that money won't make you happy, but it will do one thing - It will empower everything that you already are. If you use substances to run away from life, it will help you do that more; If you have a tendency to waste, it will help you do that more; if you have any constructive qualities, it will help you use them more.

I met some people here in India around the same time. They were friend of friends who'd decided to start a factory in India as a way to 'adopt' a village. They paid between 2 and 3 times the rates of pay the villagers could expect elsewhere - trained the villagers to do the work and indeed they had plenty of takers for the jobs. It took 18 months for the factory to fail. The problem wasn't the products or the inability to market them - it was that so may of the workers (in most part the males) used the extra money to pay for alcohol which prior to employment they could afford very little. As a result, they'd fail to turn up for work, their wives complained about an increase in violence in the home etc etc. It was presumed by the people who set up the factory that the extra money would be put to good use, though the factory had to be given up as a bad thing due to the fact it became unmanageable.

In Britain, during the industrial revolution, we had similar problems and as a result, some factory owners set up villages in which the workers lived. They were paid 'village-money' during their working lives and there were no pubs/bars available in which they could spend the money. It seems extreme in some respects in hindsight until we look deeper into the scenario. One example can be seen here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltaire though no mention of certain factors such as the absence of alcohol to protect the workers from themselves.
wellerchap
If the root cause can be removed, then yes - child labour can be eradicated.
Another way to see this situation though is this......are those kids that work and take home a little money to their families actually the lucky ones (in that country's CURRENT FINANCIAL CLIMATE)...I'd argue the unlucky ones are the ones with nothing at all.
Stop the adults reproducing so freely (I know.....impossible as they feel a need to produce children that'll look after them in their older days) & it may help the problem a bit.
There are many roots to this problem. Confused
deanhills
jeffryjon wrote:
I met some people here in India around the same time. They were friend of friends who'd decided to start a factory in India as a way to 'adopt' a village. They paid between 2 and 3 times the rates of pay the villagers could expect elsewhere - trained the villagers to do the work and indeed they had plenty of takers for the jobs. It took 18 months for the factory to fail. The problem wasn't the products or the inability to market them - it was that so may of the workers (in most part the males) used the extra money to pay for alcohol which prior to employment they could afford very little. As a result, they'd fail to turn up for work, their wives complained about an increase in violence in the home etc etc. It was presumed by the people who set up the factory that the extra money would be put to good use, though the factory had to be given up as a bad thing due to the fact it became unmanageable.
This is a good example of a failed attempt, but I'm sure for every failure there is a good story too. I have a colleague from Pakistan who tackled exactly the same kind of initiative and was very proud of the results. He was based in Canada at the time and used funds from a research project to start a pyramid type health scheme in a village in Pakistan. Focus being on treatment of heart disease through proper education of diet. The local workers got paid for doing the work and there were volunteer doctors who trained the locals to assist with medical services.

I agree that poverty can be a case of mental attitude, but if one is born into poverty, surrounded by poverty, and trapped by poverty, exploited because of poverty, then it can become self-perpetuating. I immediately feel guilty when I read about stuff like this. As basically all of us are responsible and could perhaps help to work against it. I therefore admire efforts like Watersoul's for making people aware and going a step further in the action mode.
jeffryjon
Yes Deanhills, the point I was trying to make is throwing money at a problem is not the solution. I also have many friends in/from Pakistan and to some extent, some (though not all) of the problems can be easier to resolve as alcohol is officially prohibited to muslims. The point I was making is that the problem can't be solved with money alone - there has to be an in-depth study of the local people who are suffering from poverty so that an appropriate solution can be found. There is no easy solution to the problem, though with enough effort and adaptability improvements can be made.
deanhills
jeffryjon wrote:
The point I was making is that the problem can't be solved with money alone - there has to be an in-depth study of the local people who are suffering from poverty so that an appropriate solution can be found. There is no easy solution to the problem, though with enough effort and adaptability improvements can be made.
Thanks jeffryjon. I understood differently from your previous story. I thought the point you made was that people were unable to benefit from more pay because of substance abuse. I am sure that not all Indians who are of a belief other than Muslim would be using their income for the purpose of substance abuse. There could also have been other factors at play in your example, such as staff who are not properly selected for their tasks, and/or mismanaged. I also did not understand that the point was that money would cure the problem. Thought the problem was child exploitation and that the solution of that would not be more money, but to get the children to go to school rather than working in factories. For that money would probably be needed in the big picture, as the reason they are being exploited is because they could be the only means of supporting their families. There has to be some support for the families in overall, and that is what that experiment that I mentioned to you provided. Looking after communities as a whole.
jeffryjon
Yes deanhills. The points raised were not about paying kids more money, but the parents (in the belief that this would resolve the problem). Personally I'd like to see something where the children are properly schooled as part of an employmeny package for the parents. Unfortunately many of the schools here are very substandard and the good ones tend to involve a substantial fee. A good scheme was launched in government schools in India which now officially provides a free meal every day as an incentive for children to attend. The state of Karnataka even goes further than this and the Hare-Krishna movement are playing an ever-increasing role in provision of a nutritionally balanced meal. It's not a cure for poor education, though a step in the right direction. You can watch a short video here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f227UYDJ7EU
deanhills
jeffryjon wrote:
A good scheme was launched in government schools in India which now officially provides a free meal every day as an incentive for children to attend. The state of Karnataka even goes further than this and the Hare-Krishna movement are playing an ever-increasing role in provision of a nutritionally balanced meal. It's not a cure for poor education, though a step in the right direction. You can watch a short video here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f227UYDJ7EU
Sounds very promising, but wonder how it will be possible to get to millions of destitute kids who don't even know about school. Great that there are however efforts being made, but I wonder if they will ever have enough sources to cover an overpopulation than seems to be growing unabatedly regardless of the logical consequences.
bukaida
deanhills wrote:
Is that how it is in India? No middle class? Quite a number of my colleagues here in the UAE are from India, and I would have thought they were members of the middle class? They are not wealthy, but nor are they poor by UAE standards. Or do you think that they would be regarded wealthy by Indian standards?


The defination of middle class changed rapidly in India in the post globalisation era. It is the indian economy which is one of the leaders in the post recession ( Thats what OBAMA has said yesterday during his visit to India). So some people hugely benefited from the scenario. Still the things in India are quite cheap compare to the rest of the world. But the fruit went to a very selective class.

The NRI( Non Residential Indians) are always rich compared to their counterparts because of the difference in the valuation of currencies. Moreover the Gulf offers the best pay package in the world ( My own brother is a Site in-charge for Dolphin, Qatar, so I know the scenario Smile.

In short , the rich people today can be catagorized in India as "rich" and "More rich". Rest all are poor.
bini
Child Labour is indulging children in the labour market instead of giving them the required eductational foundation. This is most conversant in third world countries and if proper measures are taken, it could be eradicated. I hope and pray that something drastic should be done to give the children a brighter and better tomorrow.
jeffryjon
bini wrote:
Child Labour is indulging children in the labour market instead of giving them the required eductational foundation. This is most conversant in third world countries and if proper measures are taken, it could be eradicated. I hope and pray that something drastic should be done to give the children a brighter and better tomorrow.


Bini, I agree totally. Something drastic needs to be done on a global level if this practice is to be eradicated. It reminds me often of the situation in South Africa a few years ago when people sought to eradicate apartheid. In Britain we were encouraged to boycott South African goods and many disagreed saying it would cause more suffering for the South Africans. Unfortunately these kinds of short-term hurts are necessary as in this time, changing things is more practically achieved not by helping the people directly, but by hurting the pockets of those who benefit from the practices. In the case of child labour, the hurt of pockets would have to go deeper and would almost certainly take longer. In many cases, child labour is a problem, due to the west being so dependent on these countries making profit for them.

The only workable solution for child labour eradication I can see at the moment is for the world at large to pick one country that has enough credence with all the other child labour countries and boycott it until the practice is abolished. There would have to be simultaneous effort to provide facilities for the children to be educated in that country. As other countries saw the effect, the next one should be easier to persuade, though even so it won't be easy. Trying to remove child labour globally in one-fell-swoop would probably be ineffective in achieving any long-term results for the general populace.
menino
In Most developing countries, where child labour persists, what parents who condone their children to work, do not realise that they are in fact increasing to the poverty of that region.
If children do work, then their wages aren't as much as the normal wages of adult workers, and what happens then, is that poverty actually increases in that region.
What is required is awareness for parents and children alike, and also convicting companies and industries who allow child labour in their places.
With companies saving money on allowing child labour to accomodated, in order to get more profit in a short time, it is difficult to make those companies aware of the problems that they are causing.

Its a good thing that UNICEF is around to make us aware of child labour, otherwise, I don't think we would even have this thread, or have people and countries care about children all over the world.
deanhills
menino wrote:
In Most developing countries, where child labour persists, what parents who condone their children to work, do not realise that they are in fact increasing to the poverty of that region.
I can't imagine those parents being able to see beyond survival when they have to send their children to work. They may not be able to think of anything beyond surviving the day.
jeffryjon
Yes I'm sure at least some of the parents know all about the poverty trap. This has been going on for so long that many of them must have wished they'd had an education to break the circle. since the advent of TV many poor people are only too aware of the riches they will never reap.
deanhills
jeffryjon wrote:
Yes I'm sure at least some of the parents know all about the poverty trap. This has been going on for so long that many of them must have wished they'd had an education to break the circle. since the advent of TV many poor people are only too aware of the riches they will never reap.
I wonder how many really poor people have access to a TV.
jeffryjon
Yes Deanhills, I'm sure there are parts of the world where nobody has, but in the slums of India there are TVs. Not in every house of course, but still quite a lot as I've seen them. A TV seems to be one of the first things people will buy if they get enough to buy one and of course that makes people very popular with the neighbours.
sudipbanerjee
In a developed country Guardian are concious and child labour is not a big problem in those country. But in an under developed country I think Child labour is not solutionable problem
deanhills
jeffryjon wrote:
Yes Deanhills, I'm sure there are parts of the world where nobody has, but in the slums of India there are TVs. Not in every house of course, but still quite a lot as I've seen them. A TV seems to be one of the first things people will buy if they get enough to buy one and of course that makes people very popular with the neighbours.
Thanks for that insight jeffryjon, I can visualize it much better now. Do you know how they get TVs to work without electricity, or I can imagine maybe they have their own generators and there is always a million ways of getting a TV to work? Am just curious about this as I can imagine having a TV would also be a way for them to make money as well, i.e. charging viewing fees etc.
jeffryjon
In India where there's a will there's a way. More precisely where there's a wire there's a way. Even if they pay the company, the cost is a standard 66Rps ($1.50) for the basic 32 Kwh per month. Everything here is subjected to the black market though - WMF estimates around 52% of all transactions. TVs and if people have more money (still little) bootleg booze are the main outlets to distract from the hardships of life. The one thing that has improved life in the city slums at least is the advent of the mobile phone. It gives people more of a chance to work freelance and make a few extra pennies on the day.
achowles
chatrack wrote:
HI,

in a well developed country, child labor can be banned strictly by law.


We have slavery in the UK. It's been outlawed for centuries, but there it is. We also buy our clothes from places that use child labour. Will it end? I doubt it. Even if we replaced such workforces with robots there would still be some depraved trades robots couldn't fill.
jeffryjon
menino wrote:
One of the good things happening with 3rd world countries, is micro loans, which was started by a smart guy in bangladesh, for which he got a nobel peace prize some time back. The idea is to put your land on kind of a mortgage, or even if you had some cattle, or just a cow, and put it on a micro loan, so that the poor could invest in themselves.

jeffryjon wrote:
Here's an example of what happens with micro-loans - the new quick fix. I live in the state quoted in the article but there's more. The microloan scheme has encouraged poor people to come forward to authorized people who then pass on their details to other 'lenders'. These 'lenders' gain money to lend to the poor by operating high interest savings schemes with local business people. generally when they receive significantly more than with the banks, customers are just happy to deposit in these short-term investments. This problem is rife in the town where I live and even those I know well took some convincing that these investments are 'bad karma' (as I explained it to them). Andhra Pradesh has practically the highest farmer suicide rate in the country and with the exception of 2 cities, farming is pretty much all they have.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11669393


Another update stressing how the operation of microloans needs a great deal of control. The situation with micro-loaning in India at least is getting worse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12035909
raaeft1
I live in Chandigarh,India. Child labour is mostly employed by restaurants,hotels,shopkeepers to do menial chores. These kids,mostly boys, are exploited to the hilt. However, it is very sad that the authorities do not take any action under the law to prevent exploitation of child labour.
icechild
bukaida wrote:
In the third world countries where the population is growing exponentialy, the people becomes poorer
everyday.For a poor family, every family member is a source of income (I have seen two months old babies being rented to professional beggers on daily basis, so that public sympathy becomes more and also the income). The general rule is that the progress of the country is heavily hampered if the future generation cannot be built properly. But I donot think it can be ended in highly populated and economicaly backword countries.

I live in a third world country myself, a country called Nigeria (West Africa). Amd it is a country which is doing extremely well.
A country that is blessed with more than everything needed to make any country a first world country. You can rean about it on[url]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria[/url] or www.nigeriaworld.com or https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ni.html

But as much as She is endowed with some really good things she has her worms and as you must have read She is still too poor and mis-treated by those in power.
Therefore child labour, like in anyother third world countries, is very present. Grom its lowest form to its highest point.
But fortunately we have in Nigeria certain individuals, who see child labour as a scourge and a pain in any economy and society and have decided to do something about it with or without the help of the government.
If everyone can adopt the mindset of persons like this, then child labour might not be ended but would definately reduces drastically. At least 98% of it would disappare.
My point is that starts with you and the good part is this: you don't need millions to start changing the world around you.

DO THE LITTLE YOU CAN TODAY.
Related topics
"global warming" questions... please share your an
What song makes you sad?
10 games to keep your child away from
The Whole "GOD" Thing
just wanna know
What will you do if you know the date of your death?
Frihost Writing Contest : THE RESULTS
Prank Excuse Form
Prank Excuse Form
Do you believe in NibiRu and 2012?
Human Cloning Benefits
Banned from sex
Terrible games that you've played anyway
Here is a really screwed up one.
Reply to topic    Frihost Forum Index -> General -> General Chat

FRIHOST HOME | FAQ | TOS | ABOUT US | CONTACT US | SITE MAP
© 2005-2011 Frihost, forums powered by phpBB.