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A Comres poll found 79 per cent of people had "no personal interest"
When the Pope last visited the UK (Pope John Paul in 1982) It was a huge event,crowds flocked to see him where ever he went,they were expecting a million people at his mass in a Manchester park at the time but only got 200.000, when i say only,its still a lot of people.
It will be interesting this time to see the numbers who turn up at the public events,in a country that is becoming increasingly indifferent to religion.
Isn't there some "controversy" over who is footing the bill for this visit? This seems like a testament to the point that tax payers shouldn't have to foot any portion of the bill.
A little controversy but it has been kept out of the news to a great extent, so i don't know what the actual level of interest is. I'm not at all happy about subsidising a trip by Ratzinger. He should be on trial rather than getting his ring kissed by royalty and hoi-poloy (in both senses of that phrase).
| liljp617 wrote: | | Isn't there some "controversy" over who is footing the bill for this visit? This seems like a testament to the point that tax payers shouldn't have to foot any portion of the bill. |
Yeah estimates of his visit costing 20 million (maybe plus) with the tax players picking up most of the bill.
Link to story.
It did annoy me a bit that any part of the taxes I pay have gone toward that trip.
I absolutely respect anyones right to religious belief if it causes others no harm, but put it in perspective, only 10% of my country are Catholics in the first place, so really, why would the other 90% really care about his visit.
The UK Government explained that it was a "state" visit not a religious one, and as leader of a "state" (The Vatican city state) he was awarded the same respect and arrangements for costs as any other world leader.
I laughed at that as well though, a leader of a pretend "state" who's people don't choose him. A leader of an organisation that denies management positions for women, denounces homosexuality, and denies safe sex birth control to impoverished people where HIV/AIDS is rampant.
I won't even start on the abuse cover-ups, but I again will respect his freedom to come to my country, and the freedom of my countryfolk to want him here if they wish (all 10% of them).
But as for the taxes I've worked to pay for, I object to even one penny of them funding this pseudo-state leaders visit - especially with the current economic position and cuts ahead in public services 
(rant over lol)
Proof that the religion is getting old in the UK!
Good for them! I could even think that a clown could do better in interest 
Well at least those who were responsible for making the visit possible must know exactly how little the citizens of the UK wanted him there. Can anyone see the Pope visiting the UK in the next five maybe ten years again? I got a very strong anti-Pope message in most of the Media. Watersoul I like your stats of 10%, and I agree, to me he does not qualify for a Statesman. More like a religious leader. Probably OK for him to visit, but all the pomp and ceremony and the expenses surrounding it, especially during hard times in the UK when the Government is implementing all kinds of austerity measures, sort of does not make sense at all.
i have started to see Arrest the Pope T-shirts popping up around campus.
i remain extremely skeptical that anyone will actually do anything about it, but my, the pressure and the outrage is really building in a way it wouldn't have just 10 scant years ago.
| Indi wrote: | i have started to see Arrest the Pope T-shirts popping up around campus.
i remain extremely skeptical that anyone will actually do anything about it, but my, the pressure and the outrage is really building in a way it wouldn't have just 10 scant years ago. |
Personally, I'm not sure about the practicalities of "arrest the pope", nor the inner details of his involvement in anything that would justify an arrest. The organisation is so powerful that lets face it, only positions of power in said organisation would have that knowledge, and for sure their own interests would influence their own actions in that case.
I would say I think your absolutely right about the change of mindset regarding this "spiritual leader" and his importance in the world these days. People have access to far more information and make their own minds up far more than we did in days past. Thankfully the days of "if you don't do x or y then you'll burn in a terrible fire" doesn't have the same control over the masses that it once did.
...and our sense of right and wrong is based more on what we see affects fellow man, and less about what they believe. The fighting over land in Ireland/UK under pseudo religious Protestant/Catholic banners served only to blind people and muddy the waters through this religious control.
| Indi wrote: | i have started to see Arrest the Pope T-shirts popping up around campus.
i remain extremely skeptical that anyone will actually do anything about it, but my, the pressure and the outrage is really building in a way it wouldn't have just 10 scant years ago. |
I thought that outrage already happened a few centuries ago in Britain? End of sixteenth and beginning of seventeenth century during the religious wars? Catholics are in a great minority in Britain as they have been sorted out quite a number of centuries before. Hence why it is even more mind boggling why the visit actually happened. But yes, for those who would like to see the rest of the catholics go as well, this could not have been a better move.
| deanhills wrote: | | Indi wrote: | i have started to see Arrest the Pope T-shirts popping up around campus.
i remain extremely skeptical that anyone will actually do anything about it, but my, the pressure and the outrage is really building in a way it wouldn't have just 10 scant years ago. |
I thought that outrage already happened a few centuries ago in Britain? End of sixteenth and beginning of seventeenth century during the religious wars? Catholics are in a great minority in Britain as they have been definitely sorted out and then some quite a number of centuries before. Hence why it is even more mind boggling why the visit actually happened. |
Still about six million of them here, so I can see why the Catholic powers that be thought a visit to keep them happy was appropriate.
The religious flag is still hoisted in places where it shouldn't really be the issue, think Northern Ireland (land and governance of the land being the important reason for the troubles), and think football, especially in Scotland, and their two main clubs:
| Quote: | Celtic were formed in 1888 by Irish Catholic immigrants who began emigrating to the West of Scotland in the 1840s and their descendants.
Rangers, who were formed in 1873, have always been perceived as "the Protestant club" and Celtic "the Catholic club". |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5289202.stm
I grew up in Wales and it didn't seem an issue with most people I grew up with either. The Catholic community kept itself to itself (including the Catholic schools) and there was no more rivalry between "Protestant" state schools than with the Catholics. But the Welsh coast was a first port of call to many Irish during various troubles over the years so maybe integration happened more gradually and earlier so people just got over themselves and their dogma a bit quicker.
Maybe this might make a difference as well:
| Quote: | | The Roman Catholic Church (Eglwys Gatholig Rufeinig) and the Church in Wales (Eglwys yng Nghymru) are the two largest churches in Wales, both of which have less than 5% of the population as members. The next largest religious society is the Presbyterian Church of Wales (Eglwys Bresbyteraidd Cymru) with 34,819 (2004) members (slightly more than 1% of the population), followed by the Union of Welsh Independents (Undeb yr Annibynwyr Cymraeg) and the Baptist Union of Wales (Undeb Bedyddwyr Cymru) which each have about 1% of the population as members. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Wales#Statistics
...perhaps, as a region of the UK, we just aren't that blinded by dangerous religious fervour?
It also probably explains why the pope didn't pop into Wales during his visit and say hi to little over 100,000 people who might have been interested in seeing him.
| deanhills wrote: | | Indi wrote: | i have started to see Arrest the Pope T-shirts popping up around campus.
i remain extremely skeptical that anyone will actually do anything about it, but my, the pressure and the outrage is really building in a way it wouldn't have just 10 scant years ago. |
I thought that outrage already happened a few centuries ago in Britain? End of sixteenth and beginning of seventeenth century during the religious wars? Catholics are in a great minority in Britain as they have been sorted out quite a number of centuries before. Hence why it is even more mind boggling why the visit actually happened. But yes, for those who would like to see the rest of the catholics go as well, this could not have been a better move. |
What religious wars are you talking about? That was mainly on mainland Europe. English Catholicism was doomed during the reign of Henry VIII when he wanted a dispensation for his divorce from Catherine of Aragon. The Pope refused to grant the dispensation and Henry subsequently declared a new Church - The Church of England - with himself as the head. This, coupled with the Protestant movement in Europe started by Luther, was the start of a precipitous decline in Catholicism in Europe. England didn't have 'religious wars', though it is certainly true that Catholics were persecuted from the time of Henry onwards.
| Quote: | | perhaps, as a region of the UK, we just aren't that blinded by dangerous religious fervour? |
Wales has a strong Methodist tradition dating back to the mid 18th century and such figures as Griffith Jones, William Williams and Howell Harris. The methodists had little time for papists
Thanks for the history lesson Bikerman. You are right of course. Fact still remains, the Catholic Religion is in a great minority. To me the outrage is not a sign of "progress", but a logical consequence of making a big fuss about a religion that has not been well regarded by the total population for centuries now.
There are 4.2 million Catholics in the UK - 8% of the population.
No religion is 'well regarded' by all of the population and no religion has been since the middle ages. The Church of England is best tolerated, since it generally makes no demands on people. 22 million people identify themselves as Anglican (though only about 1.5 million actually attend Church).
In fact Catholicism is growing in the UK.
| Bikerman wrote: | There are 4.2 million Catholics in the UK - 8% of the population.
No religion is 'well regarded' by all of the population and no religion has been since the middle ages. |
I would have agreed with that too. As well as with: | Quote: | | The Church of England is best tolerated, since it generally makes no demands on people. |
But this is new information and interesting | Quote: | | In fact Catholicism is growing in the UK. |
Do you know why it is growing? Lack of contraception/natural growth or other reasons?
| Bikerman wrote: |
Wales has a strong Methodist tradition dating back to the mid 18th century and such figures as Griffith Jones, William Williams and Howell Harris. The methodists had little time for papists |
Off topic a bit, sorry (it is relevant in a historical sense though, regarding attitudes to Catholics in this part of the UK) but Griffith Jones was more motivated by increasing literacy and championing the Welsh language after the effect of The Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542, Sunday schools were set up for adults and children alike because it was the day most people were available to learn - churches & chapels being useful meeting places available at the time.
Returning closer to the topic, the Welsh at the time were working harder at reclaiming a Welsh identity and less worried at grass roots level about the Irish Catholics who were equally perceiving their own struggle against Anglican English dominance.
*edit* even the disestablishment of the Welsh element of the Church of England from the state points further to my view that Wales has long viewed religion in general as individual choice and not something that should be controlling or dividing us - unlike the more militant elements of the Catholic congregations we see sometimes.
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