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Teacher fired for pre-marital sex...





liljp617
Quote:
After Hamilton admitted that her child had been conceived about three weeks before her February 20, 2009, wedding, the school fired her.

Now she's suing in federal court.


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/florida/os-christian-school-premarital-sex-20100607,0,5428043.story

Lovely story!

The school proclaims itself to be a Christian entity and their excuse for the firing is:

Quote:
"Jarretta was asked not to return because of a moral issue that was disregarded, namely fornication, sex outside of marriage," the letter reads. "The employment application, which she filled out, clearly states that as a leader before our students we require all teachers to maintain and communicate the values and purpose of our school."



Ignoring the vagueness of what they say is on their employment application, does she have a legitimate case? Obviously it's hard to say without seeing the exact language of the contract/application, but I just can't see this being legal.
deanhills
liljp617 wrote:
Ignoring the vagueness of what they say is on their employment application, does she have a legitimate case? Obviously it's hard to say without seeing the exact language of the contract/application, but I just can't see this being legal.
Without considering the moral aspects of it, this is a private school, isn't it, i.e. not public? So I imagine they then have the right to decide on whether something like this should be allowed, from a legal point of view, whether the public like it or not.

From a subjective and outsider point of view, I thought the decision lacked compassion from a Christian point of view. I would have thought that even if they thought pre-marital sex were sinful, that they would have embraced someone who became pregnant and still had the guts to get married and continue with her schooling. I'm glad the School is being challenged, really shows guts on the part of Jarretta. Would be interesting if she were to be compensated, however wonder how the compensation will really help her get over this stress. Already bad enough to have a baby at this young age, and to get married and attend school all at the same time, and now a court case on top of it as well. Thumbs up though for her tackling it head on.
Afaceinthematrix
Quote:
"We request that Jarretta withdraw her complaint and consider the testimony of the Lord," closed the letter.



That is the worst part of the article. But what do you expect from South Florida? Does this surprise me? Not in the slightest. Is it sad that I can read something like this and not be surprised? Yes - a little.

The Bible belt of the U.S. is a very different world than the rest of the U.S. and is a place where religious freedom (freedom in general, actually) is frowned upon. Most of my family lives in Oklahoma - the heart of the Bible Belt), but I am lucky enough to be located in the Los Angeles area - which is much more liberal.

I know for a (an almost certain) fact that some of the teachers that I had in high school had children and were no married. I know this mainly from putting together little side remarks that they may have said on separate occasions (I have one child that is ten years old/I was single until I met my wife five years ago/etc.). I don't find this a big deal really. It may be ideal to bring your child into a two parent situation, but not necessary. And why would you not want to have sex before marriage? It would be nice to have some experience so that you know what you're getting into with a person you're spending the rest of your life with... Many people do not like it and to each their own. But to fire someone for it is the pinnacle of bullshit.
deanhills
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
Does this surprise me? Not in the slightest. Is it sad that I can read something like this and not be surprised? Yes - a little.
I'm surprised. As surely that goes against Christian principles of compassion and forgiveness. Does not make sense to me at all. With that kind of narrow-mindedness, I can just imagine how restricted the curriculum would be as well. Not a good sign for the school at all.
Afaceinthematrix
deanhills wrote:
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
Does this surprise me? Not in the slightest. Is it sad that I can read something like this and not be surprised? Yes - a little.
I'm surprised. As surely that goes against Christian principles of compassion and forgiveness. Does not make sense to me at all. With that kind of narrow-mindedness, I can just imagine how restricted the curriculum would be as well. Not a good sign for the school at all.


Then you know nothing about Christianity. Christianity isn't about forgiveness - it is about burning witches and throwing stones at anyone that doesn't agree with your specific philosophy. Christians don't actually care about the "He who has not sinned may throw the first stone" philosophy of Jesus. They just want to be hostile to non-Christians. Islam is also that way. Muslims, as we all know, can be very hostile to non-Muslims. Both religions were spread by the sword and even though Christianity isn't spread by the sword anymore, Christians are still very hostile towards non-Christians.

I am surprised that you posted that, Dean. The reason that I am surprised is that we have had this very same discussion before and you agreed that Christians are very hostile to non-Christians. I even remember posting a Youtube video where it showed how two atheists became outcasts in their town when people found out they didn't believe in God! Nobody would talk to them or have any association with them. I, unfortunately, do not remember what that video was called and so I cannot look it up but you have seen the video before! It isn't hard to find similar videos:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=discrimination%20towards%20atheists&search=Search&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&spell=1
Bikerman
liljp617 wrote:
Ignoring the vagueness of what they say is on their employment application, does she have a legitimate case? Obviously it's hard to say without seeing the exact language of the contract/application, but I just can't see this being legal.
I'm not very familiar with US employment law, so all I can say is that she would certainly have a case in the UK. Religious discrimination is not illegal here (unfortunately that might change if the new government revive a Labour bill which proposes making it an offense, but I hope not). However, the company have not given sufficient justification for sacking the worker and the decision could be classified as 'perverse' and 'irrational' which would automatically put it into the realms of an industrial tribunal and mean, almost certainly, that she would win a case. That would not get her a job back (the tribunal has no such power and I'm not sure it should have), but it does mean a very nice pay-off and a record/references which would be fair and not pejorative. She would probably receive at least a year of salary and any other benefits to which she would normally be entitled (pension credits etc).

* The above is all assuming that this is a private company rather than a state school. It would not (and could not) arise in any state school.
deanhills
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
deanhills wrote:
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
Does this surprise me? Not in the slightest. Is it sad that I can read something like this and not be surprised? Yes - a little.
I'm surprised. As surely that goes against Christian principles of compassion and forgiveness. Does not make sense to me at all. With that kind of narrow-mindedness, I can just imagine how restricted the curriculum would be as well. Not a good sign for the school at all.


Then you know nothing about Christianity. Christianity isn't about forgiveness - it is about burning witches and throwing stones at anyone that doesn't agree with your specific philosophy. Christians don't actually care about the "He who has not sinned may throw the first stone" philosophy of Jesus. They just want to be hostile to non-Christians. Islam is also that way. Muslims, as we all know, can be very hostile to non-Muslims. Both religions were spread by the sword and even though Christianity isn't spread by the sword anymore, Christians are still very hostile towards non-Christians.
In you opinion perhaps.

Afaceinthematrix wrote:
I am surprised that you posted that, Dean. The reason that I am surprised is that we have had this very same discussion before and you agreed that Christians are very hostile to non-Christians.

Is it possible to provide a link to that discussion? It is surprising that I would have said that. I am not denying that I said it, however it could have been said in a different context? Before I can comment on that however, I would need to see what I have written before.

Afaceinthematrix wrote:
I even remember posting a Youtube video where it showed how two atheists became outcasts in their town when people found out they didn't believe in God! Nobody would talk to them or have any association with them. I, unfortunately, do not remember what that video was called and so I cannot look it up but you have seen the video before! It isn't hard to find similar videos:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=discrimination%20towards%20atheists&search=Search&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&spell=1
Just so that we can be clear about this, as one could easily interpret this differently. I did not post that YouTube movie.

Also, I really don't like stereotyping like this, as as much as not all atheists think exactly the same way, Christians are also different in thinking from one another. There are Christians and Christians. There are Christians who are genuinely compassionate and forgiving. Perhaps not in your life, but in my life I have seen a number of those. I have seen hypocrites as well who wear Christianity on their sleeve, in order to control the behaviour of others, however I have also seen Christians who are genuine and sincere in their compassion and forgiveness of others. They are also the ones who don't broadcast Christianity on street corners. When I am in their presence I feel at peace, as they are usually into unconditional acceptance of people the way they are. They don't burn them at firestakes and they don't throw stones.
iman
Well, it's the boss' choice, he had the rights to do it.
Moreover, the school's visions and missions are prolly in conflict with her actions.
Bikerman
No, it isn't the bosses choice. Civilised societies have a bit more regard for the rights of the individual.
Afaceinthematrix
deanhills wrote:
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
Then you know nothing about Christianity. Christianity isn't about forgiveness - it is about burning witches and throwing stones at anyone that doesn't agree with your specific philosophy. Christians don't actually care about the "He who has not sinned may throw the first stone" philosophy of Jesus. They just want to be hostile to non-Christians. Islam is also that way. Muslims, as we all know, can be very hostile to non-Muslims. Both religions were spread by the sword and even though Christianity isn't spread by the sword anymore, Christians are still very hostile towards non-Christians.
In you opinion perhaps.


It is not opinion - it is fact and history. And to deny it is silly. Christianity has burned people they thought were "witches." Islam and Christianity were spread by the sword. Christians are very hostie to non-Christians and I provided a link full of videos where you can see the discrimination. Things like this article happen all of the time in America and to simply deny it and say that Christians don't do that because they're "forgiving" is foolish because it is easy to find thousands of cases of it!

Quote:
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
I am surprised that you posted that, Dean. The reason that I am surprised is that we have had this very same discussion before and you agreed that Christians are very hostile to non-Christians.

Is it possible to provide a link to that discussion? It is surprising that I would have said that. I am not denying that I said it, however it could have been said in a different context? Before I can comment on that however, I would need to see what I have written before.


I mention that I cannot even find the Youtube video so what makes you think I'd find that thread? I searched for it but could not find it. It is months old. Basically, a Youtube video was posted where two atheists living in a community in the Bible Belt came out and told their friends and neighbors that they didn't believe in God. They became instant outcasts. No one wanted to speak to them. No one would be associated with them. No one wanted their children to come near them. Etc.

Atheists are discriminated against and there are still laws in some U.S. states requiring you to believe in God to hold public office!
Quote:

Afaceinthematrix wrote:
I even remember posting a Youtube video where it showed how two atheists became outcasts in their town when people found out they didn't believe in God! Nobody would talk to them or have any association with them. I, unfortunately, do not remember what that video was called and so I cannot look it up but you have seen the video before! It isn't hard to find similar videos:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=discrimination%20towards%20atheists&search=Search&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&spell=1
Just so that we can be clear about this, as one could easily interpret this differently. I did not post that YouTube movie.


I know that. I mentioned that. But you acknowledged that fact that these atheists were discriminated against. That's all that matters! This isn't about who posts the damn video. It's about the video. You're being foolish. Your argument here is: Christians are forgiving and wouldn't hold it against someone for not holding to their exact beliefs. Then somebody comes by and says, "No. I can provide counter-examples." You then say, "I didn't post those counter examples." WTF? Does it matter who posts the evidence? Of course not! The content of the proof is what matters - not who posts it. Did you honestly think saying, "I did not post that YouTube movie" would do anything to help your case?

Quote:

Also, I really don't like stereotyping like this, as as much as not all atheists think exactly the same way, Christians are also different in thinking from one another. There are Christians and Christians. There are Christians who are genuinely compassionate and forgiving. Perhaps not in your life, but in my life I have seen a number of those. I have seen hypocrites as well who wear Christianity on their sleeve, in order to control the behaviour of others, however I have also seen Christians who are genuine and sincere in their compassion and forgiveness of others. They are also the ones who don't broadcast Christianity on street corners. When I am in their presence I feel at peace, as they are usually into unconditional acceptance of people the way they are. They don't burn them at firestakes and they don't throw stones.


You said, "I'm surprised. As surely that goes against Christian principles of compassion and forgiveness." That was a concrete statement. I am merely pointing out that you shouldn't be surprised that it happens because many Christians will pull shit like this. Did I ever mention that all Christians do? No. I just said don't be surprised because it happens. I didn't stereotype at all... I just said that it happens and then provided cases to clearly prove that it happens... You can ignore the proof if you want...

Bikerman wrote:
I'm not very familiar with US employment law, so all I can say is that she would certainly have a case in the UK. Religious discrimination is not illegal here (unfortunately that might change if the new government revive a Labour bill which proposes making it an offense, but I hope not).


1) U.S. employment laws forbid discrimination on the basis of gender, age, religion, and ethnicity (unless, of course, it directly affects the job. For instance, ff you're a director, you have to discriminate on those because you couldn't have a young white girl play the role of Martin Luther King, Jr. in your movie about the Civil Rights Movement...) She definitely has a case.

2) What??? "Religious discrimination is not illegal here (unfortunately that might change...)." Did you misspeak or do you believe that it is unfortunate that it may become legal to discriminate on the basis of religion? Sure religion annoys the Hell out of me, but I think that discrimination of any form is wrong...*

*Although I do understand and slightly agree with the argument that employment discrimination should be legal because employers should have the right to hire whoever they want as it is their business... While it is definitely wrong IMO, it shouldn't necessarily be illegal...
Bikerman
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
2) What??? "Religious discrimination is not illegal here (unfortunately that might change...)." Did you misspeak or do you believe that it is unfortunate that it may become legal to discriminate on the basis of religion? Sure religion annoys the Hell out of me, but I think that discrimination of any form is wrong...*
No, I think a religious discrimination law would be a nightmare. Think about it. The first in court will be the comedians - tell an anti-Christian joke and see you in court. Next, we'd obviously have to bin several of my favourite films. Life of Brian wouldn't make it, neither would the Holy Grail.
Then we would have every unemployable numpty in the country claiming that it was their deep and profound religious beliefs that cause them not to get the job, and the fact that they made 47 spelling mistakes on their CV was just an excuse...
I can see absolutely NO case for any law concerning religious discrimination. We already have very powerful 'incitement' laws that can land you in jail for 10 years, we have aggravated and actual bodily harm - another 7 years. What, exactly, do we suggest that religion needs, in the way of protection? The only thing not currently covered by other statute would be insulting comment, jokes, parodies etc etc.
No thank-you!
The notion that employers discriminate against religion is laughable, and always has been. Race? Yes. Sex? Yes. Age? Yes. Religion? Doubtful, unless it was a particular job requiring a particular uniform and the religious interviewee was obviously not going to work...rare...very rare...
You choose your religion (or at least that option is open to you). No other law on discrimination concerns things you choose. They are things you can't choose (gender, age, disability, colour etc). Once we start legislating against things which people choose to do - even if to 'protect' it - then we are on a fast-track to hell in a hand-basket.
Afaceinthematrix
Bikerman wrote:
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
2) What??? "Religious discrimination is not illegal here (unfortunately that might change...)." Did you misspeak or do you believe that it is unfortunate that it may become legal to discriminate on the basis of religion? Sure religion annoys the Hell out of me, but I think that discrimination of any form is wrong...*
No, I think a religious discrimination law would be a nightmare. Think about it. The first in court will be the comedians - tell an anti-Christian joke and see you in court. Next, we'd obviously have to bin several of my favourite films. Life of Brian wouldn't make it, neither would the Holy Grail.
Then we would have every unemployable numpty in the country claiming that it was their deep and profound religious beliefs that cause them not to get the job, and the fact that they made 47 spelling mistakes on their CV was just an excuse...
I can see absolutely NO case for any law concerning religious discrimination. We already have very powerful 'incitement' laws that can land you in jail for 10 years, we have aggravated and actual bodily harm - another 7 years. What, exactly, do we suggest that religion needs, in the way of protection? The only thing not currently covered by other statute would be insulting comment, jokes, parodies etc etc.
No thank-you!
The notion that employers discriminate against religion is laughable, and always has been. Race? Yes. Sex? Yes. Age? Yes. Religion? Doubtful, unless it was a particular job requiring a particular uniform and the religious interviewee was obviously not going to work...rare...very rare...
You choose your religion (or at least that option is open to you). No other law on discrimination concerns things you choose. They are things you can't choose (gender, age, disability, colour etc). Once we start legislating against things which people choose to do - even if to 'protect' it - then we are on a fast-track to hell in a hand-basket.


I don't think that would happen.

First, the comedian and movie scenario wouldn't happen because you mentioned that the law might change as in a new labor law will be created. That is what we have in the U.S. A labor law prevents employers from discriminating their hiring/firing choices on the basis of age, gender, ethnicity, and religion. So why would movies have to be banned? Why would comedians be sent to court for their jokes? We are talking about a labor discrimination law - we are not talking about banning the freedom of speech. These are two different things. I can't see any labor law extending to the freedom of speech.

The second scenario is, of course, possible. I can see the courts being full of people complaining that they did not get hired because of their religion. But I doubt it will happen. The reason why I doubt it is that it doesn't happen in the U.S. and we have laws about discrimination. The only time it happens is when it is legitimate - like in this case!

And you also have to look at what the U.K. already has. Do you guys already have laws ruling against hiring/firing discrimination based on age/gender/ethnicity? If you do, then are your courts full of cases of people claiming that they didn't get a job because of one of these when their resume had 47 spelling errors? If the answer is "no?" then why would it happen with religion? And even if it does already happen, then what's a few more cases of the same type? Your court system would already be used to it...

P.S. It isn't really any particular religion that needs protection - it is for cases like this where religious discrimination should maybe be protected against.
Bikerman
Well, consider the fact that we have no such law at the moment. Then consider that there have been 3 court cases in the last 2 years - all trivial, involving christians refusing to take off crucifixes - and all loosing badly. I think we are actually at cross purposes because I didn't make it clear what the proposed law actually is. Specifically it makes it illegal to incite religious hatred. THAT is the problem.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/article_2018.jsp

The other point which I haven't made clear enough is that we already have more than enough law to deal with any case I can conceive of. Our legal system is very different to yours (for a start I can just about afford to use ours still Smile.) - the main difference being that the Articles of Human Rights legislation are already built-in - as they are with any EU country. That means article 9 (the right to freedom to practice religion and believe as you like) is already in the law.
http://www.abouthumanrights.co.uk/religious-freedom--right-believe-what-you-want.html

You can now see where this is coming from - clearly driven by the Islamic mullahs, aided and abetted by their 'friend in Christ' the Archbishop of Canterbury. The Church of England has been wailing for some time about the lack of respect given to Christians and other people of 'faith'. Rowan Williams (the aforesaid ArchBish) has been at the forefront of this moaning and whinging. This new proposed law is right up his alley...And that will certainly be used against comedians, films, and other forms of free expression, despite Government promises to the contrary- I'd bet good money on it.
deanhills
Afaceinthematrix wrote:

It is not opinion - it is fact and history. And to deny it is silly. Christianity has burned people they thought were "witches." Islam and Christianity were spread by the sword. Christians are very hostie to non-Christians and I provided a link full of videos where you can see the discrimination. Things like this article happen all of the time in America and to simply deny it and say that Christians don't do that because they're "forgiving" is foolish because it is easy to find thousands of cases of it!
Come off it Matrix. People do awful things in the name of many things, including Christianity and Islam, as well as many other crazy reasons. If one person does something wrong, it does not say Christianity is wrong, just that that person is doing something wrong. Check out all the hate groups in the US. May just as well blame whole humanity for being responsible for really bad things in life. That would cover it much better.

Afaceinthematrix wrote:
But you acknowledged that fact that these atheists were discriminated against. That's all that matters! This isn't about who posts the damn video. It's about the video. You're being foolish. Your argument here is: Christians are forgiving and wouldn't hold it against someone for not holding to their exact beliefs. Then somebody comes by and says, "No. I can provide counter-examples." You then say, "I didn't post those counter examples." WTF? Does it matter who posts the evidence? Of course not! The content of the proof is what matters - not who posts it. Did you honestly think saying, "I did not post that YouTube movie" would do anything to help your case?
Now you are arguing crazy Matrix. I was saying that Christians are supposed to be forgiving, there is lots about that in the New Testament. It is being taught all over it. I don't know how you are getting to atheism. I did not mention anything about that. I definitely agreed that what had happened at that school was just completely wrong, and to me not representative of how Christians should act. And add to this too for the record, I don't agree with discriminating against atheists either. I wish that people could be more tolerant of one another's belief systems. Hacking away at one another does not serve any purpose.

Afaceinthematrix wrote:


You said, "I'm surprised. As surely that goes against Christian principles of compassion and forgiveness." That was a concrete statement. I am merely pointing out that you shouldn't be surprised that it happens because many Christians will pull shit like this. Did I ever mention that all Christians do? No. I just said don't be surprised because it happens. I didn't stereotype at all... I just said that it happens and then provided cases to clearly prove that it happens... You can ignore the proof if you want...
Then I misunderstood what you said. Thanks for sorting that out for me.
Afaceinthematrix
Quote:
Come off it Matrix. People do awful things in the name of many things, including Christianity and Islam, as well as many other crazy reasons. If one person does something wrong, it does not say Christianity is wrong, just that that person is doing something wrong. Check out all the hate groups in the US. May just as well blame whole humanity for being responsible for really bad things in life. That would cover it much better.


You just don't get it, do you? Of course people do awful things in the name of many things? That's my freaking point! You said that, "I'm surprised. As surely that goes against Christian principles of compassion and forgiveness. Does not make sense to me at all." I basically said, "Don't be surprised. This happens all the time." When I provide the DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE, you ignore it and start talking about a bunch of other crap. Honestly, where do you not get this? You say that you're surprised that it happens and I say to not be surprised because it happens all of the time. This seems pretty basic to me...

Quote:
Now you are arguing crazy Matrix. I was saying that Christians are supposed to be forgiving, there is lots about that in the New Testament. It is being taught all over it. I don't know how you are getting to atheism. I did not mention anything about that. I definitely agreed that what had happened at that school was just completely wrong, and to me not representative of how Christians should act. And add to this too for the record, I don't agree with discriminating against atheists either. I wish that people could be more tolerant of one another's belief systems. Hacking away at one another does not serve any purpose.


I am being crazy? I'm not the one who says something doesn't happen and then when someone provides cases where it does happens completely doesn't understand the point. I'll even try it again.

You: I'm surprised this happens.
Me: Don't be surprised, it happens all of the time.

And are you joking? It doesn't matter what the New Testament preaches. It matters what the Christians do. I already pointed this out. Jesus said that he is without sin must cast the first stone. Christians respond to that by burning witches a few hundred years later...

And are you serious? You don't know why I brought up atheism? Are you seriously serious? I only told you exactly why I brought it up... The reason why was that WE'VE had a conversation in the past where two atheists were discriminated against by Christians and so this is an EXAMPLE of why you should not be surprised. Is it that difficult? I am sorry that I cannot find the thread or video from at least a year ago, but I did provide a link to many other videos...
HalfBloodPrince
They have a problem with the lady as she had sex as a consenting adult. Were she an unwilling five year old, they'd be A-OK with that...
deanhills
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
You just don't get it, do you? Of course people do awful things in the name of many things? That's my freaking point! You said that, "I'm surprised. As surely that goes against Christian principles of compassion and forgiveness. Does not make sense to me at all." I basically said, "Don't be surprised. This happens all the time." When I provide the DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE, you ignore it and start talking about a bunch of other crap. Honestly, where do you not get this? You say that you're surprised that it happens and I say to not be surprised because it happens all of the time. This seems pretty basic to me...
I don't know what you are fighting about? Do you? As for your documented evidence, that was not documented evidence. It was a collection of Youtube shows on discrimination against atheism. I did not look at them, because as far as I know that is not relevant to this thread. Nor to what I said. You brought it up.

Afaceinthematrix wrote:


You: I'm surprised this happens.
Me: Don't be surprised, it happens all of the time.
OK this I can understand. So perhaps if I rephrased this to: This happened, but it should not have? Would that make you happy? Choose any wording if you don't like it. That was not a BIG deal statement, except you made it into one.

Afaceinthematrix wrote:
And are you joking? It doesn't matter what the New Testament preaches. It matters what the Christians do. I already pointed this out. Jesus said that he is without sin must cast the first stone. Christians respond to that by burning witches a few hundred years later...
Saying it matters what people do, more than what they preach, is stating the obvious. Why are you stating it as though I would differ with you on this? I have already said that all Christians are not the same. As much as all atheists and all muslims are not the same. People are people. They do weird things, as obviously they are doing at this school in the name of Christianity. You can't stereotype Christians by the worst that you believe them to be capable off. You seem to be relishing in that.

Afaceinthematrix wrote:
And are you serious? You don't know why I brought up atheism? Are you seriously serious? I only told you exactly why I brought it up... The reason why was that WE'VE had a conversation in the past where two atheists were discriminated against by Christians and so this is an EXAMPLE of why you should not be surprised. Is it that difficult? I am sorry that I cannot find the thread or video from at least a year ago, but I did provide a link to many other videos...
But what has discrimination of atheism got to do with the topic of this thread? That I don't get. I now understand your argument, which was basically you were surprised I was surprised. And wow, are you making it into a mosquito sledgehammer argument. I'm now saying you can change my wording if you like it. Anything to make you happy.
silverdown
wow, and i bet before that most of the people who wanted her out she thought here her dear friends.
deanhills
silverdown wrote:
wow, and i bet before that most of the people who wanted her out she thought here her dear friends.
This is a really good point. Sometimes something really bad starts with straightforward complaints, and then when the problem has been highlighted people may start to keep their distance, it just gets worse and worse and the issue becomes a matter of principle. Parents may also advise their children not to socialize with her. Not a nice world we are living in. People are fickle and weird all over the world. I think it was a year ago when we had a discussion about students in a High School in Sydney who got expelled because of things they had said about the principal in Facebook. That could also have started as a complaint, and then turned into a matter of principle and discipline.

http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-114231-2.html
Afaceinthematrix
deanhills wrote:
Afaceinthematrix wrote:
You just don't get it, do you? Of course people do awful things in the name of many things? That's my freaking point! You said that, "I'm surprised. As surely that goes against Christian principles of compassion and forgiveness. Does not make sense to me at all." I basically said, "Don't be surprised. This happens all the time." When I provide the DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE, you ignore it and start talking about a bunch of other crap. Honestly, where do you not get this? You say that you're surprised that it happens and I say to not be surprised because it happens all of the time. This seems pretty basic to me...
I don't know what you are fighting about? Do you? As for your documented evidence, that was not documented evidence. It was a collection of Youtube shows on discrimination against atheism. I did not look at them, because as far as I know that is not relevant to this thread. Nor to what I said. You brought it up.


I am not fighting. I am just extremely annoyed that I have to keep repeating myself over and over again. Look at what you just said, "...because as far as I know that is not relevant to this thread." I JUST SAID AGAIN WHY IT WAS!!! Didn't you even read my previous post? Here, I'll say it again.

Afaceinthematrix wrote:
And are you serious? You don't know why I brought up atheism? Are you seriously serious? I only told you exactly why I brought it up... The reason why was that WE'VE had a conversation in the past where two atheists were discriminated against by Christians and so this is an EXAMPLE of why you should not be surprised. Is it that difficult? I am sorry that I cannot find the thread or video from at least a year ago, but I did provide a link to many other videos...


As I said, I brought up witch burning for the same reason. I'll continue the explanation that has already happened.

You: I'm surprised this happens.
Me: Don't be surprised, it happens all of the time.
You: Give me an example of where this has happened.
Me: There's plenty of examples of Christians going against (in your own words) "principles of compassion and forgiveness." One example would be a case that you've already seen where two atheists were discriminated against and treated as outcasts when people found out they didn't believe in God. I don't remember the link to the exact video because I watched it quite some time ago, but here are plenty of other links.

Is it that difficult? I've already explained this. The whole point was that you said Christians will never go against the "principles of compassion and forgiveness" and I pointed to counter-examples. You're just ignoring everything I said even though I am quite clearly showing you that you're position is ridiculous. You cannot argue that Christians will never go against the "principles of compassion and forgiveness" when I can point out cases where they do...
natilovesmike
religious people can be dumb sometimes....they want to hold on to their belief no matter what...they feel like if they can't hold on to it their world will collapse...you see people in this country holding on to beliefs that are absolutely crazy...what are they so afraid of?
deanhills
natilovesmike wrote:
religious people can be dumb sometimes....they want to hold on to their belief no matter what...they feel like if they can't hold on to it their world will collapse...you see people in this country holding on to beliefs that are absolutely crazy...what are they so afraid of?
I guess we all are a little bit like that. We need to have something we believe in, whether religion or trusting someone or relying on a job. Safety and security in familiarity. I don't think that is exclusive to religion, it is a human trait.
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