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Turkey bans Facebook, YouTube and now parts of Google





Bondings
A lot of Google services have been banned by Turkey without any official explanation as of yet.

Facebook and YouTube were also banned, albeit since quite some time now. YouTube was banned for insulting Ataturk.

It seems the internet censorship is getting out of hand. More and more countries are doing it or trying to do it. I assume however, that if you ban Youtube, Facebook and Google that you would get quite some protests, at least in a country like Turkey. (I assume in China people are used a lot more)

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/27221/20100607/turkey-internet-google.htm
Bikerman
Now that is genuinely worrying. OK - Turkey is not exactly France and I wouldn't really call it a European country at all, but it is reasonably democratic (if we allow a wide margin and basically mean it to say Turkey is not completely dictatorial or theocratic) and I would be surprised if there was not some serious trouble over it.
I also have to wonder about all the ISPs closing so quickly....craven blighters...surely they should at least have thought about an appeal before caving in?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1483840.ece
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6427355.stm

This rather re-enforces my previous opinion that Turkey should not be offered EEC membership....even if the US do stamp their feet and sulk...
HalfBloodPrince
I doubt this will hold for too long though, due to the fact that those are among (if not the) most popular websites used today. Considering that the redirection message is "access to this site is banned by court order” I think it's most likely a temporary political protest against something. Gosh, what really pissed Turkey off this week? But when I say temporary, they'll probably be forced to lift the ban (either due to wide protest, or pressure from Google and Facebook, or hopefully both). Pakistan pulled this same crap a few weeks ago, banning YouTube and Facebook because of one "Draw Muhammed Day" page on Facebook.

If a single book offends you, burn the entire f*cking library, son.
Bikerman
Yes, I knew about the Pakistan case - it was a bit longer back, and they apparently made some real boo-boos in trying to block the sites:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3356520/Pakistan-ban-to-blame-for-YouTube-blackout.html

That particular ban lasted less than a day, if sources are correct...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/25/pakistan.youtube
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7262071.stm
Bondings
There are rumors that in the case of Google it's a tax issue. I guess they want a part of the advertising revenue.
LimpFish
Who's surprised? They persecute and kill christians all the time. This seems almost reasonable compared to that.
Bondings
LimpFish wrote:
Who's surprised? They persecute and kill christians all the time. This seems almost reasonable compared to that.

Pardon me? We're talking about Turkey here, a secular state. They definitely do not murder and kill Christians all the time (unless you are talking about some kind of serial killer).
Bikerman
Bondings wrote:
LimpFish wrote:
Who's surprised? They persecute and kill christians all the time. This seems almost reasonable compared to that.

Pardon me? We're talking about Turkey here, a secular state. They definitely do not murder and kill Christians all the time (unless you are talking about some kind of serial killer).

I agree, but I wouldn't press home too far the secular credentials. The method for keeping the state secular has been to deny democratic elections on several occasions, for fear that the Islamists might gain significant power or even win an election. Horrible dilemma - do you allow a free vote and risk loosing that freedom to an islamic state..

(This is not an anti-Turkey polemic btw - it is a real dilemma and the Turks have to sort it out for themselves. All in all it compares favourably with its neighbours and apart from its appalling record against the Kurds, it has a reasonable human rights record - certainly for that geographical location...)
deanhills
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
I doubt this will hold for too long though, due to the fact that those are among (if not the) most popular websites used today.
Youtube is very popular, especially in Turkey. However, I'm almost certain that there are easy alternatives for Facebook and Google, I get a sense of above average computer savvy in Turkey, and who knows, maybe they will be forced to design something better than Google and Facebook for Turkey. I sometimes wonder why the whole world should subscribe to one idea only. When there are so many different cultures. Would be nice if computer geeks from different countries could come up with healthy competition, or a new unique way of doing Youtube, Facebook and Google. Competition is always good for progress.
Bikerman
It doesn't actually matter what Turks design for themselves - if the Government is prepared to block one site it can block any. They are doing it by instructing the ISP to block the site - unlike China, who block at the borders. ISPs can block anything they like using local routing, so even if the site is in the next room your ISP could block internet access to it. I think the ISPs in this country would have a bit more bottle - at least some of the smaller ones - and demand a court order first, rather than caving in as soon as the pres speaks.
cemycc
Bikerman wrote:
It doesn't actually matter what Turks design for themselves - if the Government is prepared to block one site it can block any. They are doing it by instructing the ISP to block the site - unlike China, who block at the borders. ISPs can block anything they like using local routing, so even if the site is in the next room your ISP could block internet access to it. I think the ISPs in this country would have a bit more bottle - at least some of the smaller ones - and demand a court order first, rather than caving in as soon as the pres speaks.


If the ISP block it then they can`t use anything to unblock it right ?
Wow... Turks will go down without Google Smile
Bikerman
cemycc wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
It doesn't actually matter what Turks design for themselves - if the Government is prepared to block one site it can block any. They are doing it by instructing the ISP to block the site - unlike China, who block at the borders. ISPs can block anything they like using local routing, so even if the site is in the next room your ISP could block internet access to it. I think the ISPs in this country would have a bit more bottle - at least some of the smaller ones - and demand a court order first, rather than caving in as soon as the pres speaks.


If the ISP block it then they can`t use anything to unblock it right ?
Wow... Turks will go down without Google Smile

Your ISP has complete control over your connection. Did you know, for example, that they record EVERYTHING you do online? Every site you visit, ever email sent, every file downloaded. They have to - it is the law. Now there is no need to panic - even if you do things which are dodgy - because the information is just logged and archived to disk. There is FAR too much information for anyone to troll through. It is generally kept for 3-5 years in case the police want to see it later. It cannot be passed on (legally) to others.

As far as blocking sites - nothing easier. The ISP can simply put a filter at their end which blocks any site they like. They could block it for one user, a hundred users, or all users - no problem at all. There is nothing you can do about it because you only 'see' what they send down the line to you.
It means that the site is still available generally on the internet, but your particular 'branch line' from the ISP will not allow the traffic to travel down it because there is a 'red light' at the far end of the 'track' (the ISP).

The Chinese do it differently. They block sites at the connections where they come into the country (the backbone routers). That is much more difficult but it means that the traffic from the blocked sites never actually gets onto their 'train-tracks' at all - it is stopped at the 'main station'.
Bondings
@Bikerman, those things are easy to circumvent by using a vps or even a proxy. Of course it is rather hard to find a proxy that would work for Youtube movies, though.
Bikerman
Bondings wrote:
@Bikerman, those things are easy to circumvent by using a vps or even a proxy. Of course it is rather hard to find a proxy that would work for Youtube movies, though.


Oh true enough, but then there are a couple of other tricks you can use to defeat that as well if the ISP really wants to. I'm betting that they don't actually want to - things like header/port filtering have a major performance hit as well - though I've seen some nifty hardware scan/filter boxes that can perform active filtering and rewriting - not just on the TCP headers but on the whole data-block - in pretty much real-time - Corning were playing with one system a few years ago...
Bondings
Bikerman wrote:
Bondings wrote:
@Bikerman, those things are easy to circumvent by using a vps or even a proxy. Of course it is rather hard to find a proxy that would work for Youtube movies, though.


Oh true enough, but then there are a couple of other tricks you can use to defeat that as well if the ISP really wants to. I'm betting that they don't actually want to - things like header/port filtering have a major performance hit as well - though I've seen some nifty hardware scan/filter boxes that can perform active filtering and rewriting - not just on the TCP headers but on the whole data-block - in pretty much real-time - Corning were playing with one system a few years ago...

The point of a VPS setup is that you can't filter it, at least not the connection between the VPS and yourself. The only thing that is possible is to block the ip address of the VPS itself.

The point of the system is to encrypt all the traffic between yourself and the VPS and you surf just like your local machine would be the VPS. The only problems with this setup is that you need to rent a VPS, the VPS may not be in a country that censors the web and finally the VPS itself may not be blocked (which isn't that likely unless they block all companies renting vps's).
Bikerman
Sorry - misunderstood you. I call them vpn (virtual private networks) - is that what you mean?
(To me a vps is a private server - a method of splitting a real server into several virtual ones)

As regards VPNs - they must be relatively easy to stop because my ISP has it as a 'toggle' option - it doesn't allow a vpn but if you ring them, low and behold you can then establish the connection....
I take the point about the data being un-readable once the connection is established - a lot of crims are using them for live illegal broadcasting of gigs, sports events etc
Bondings
Bikerman wrote:
Sorry - misunderstood you. I call them vpn (virtual private networks) - is that what you mean?
(To me a vps is a private server - a method of splitting a real server into several virtual ones)

As regards VPNs - they must be relatively easy to stop because my ISP has it as a 'toggle' option - it doesn't allow a vpn but if you ring them, low and behold you can then establish the connection....
I take the point about the data being un-readable once the connection is established - a lot of crims are using them for live illegal broadcasting of gigs, sports events etc

I'm sorry for the confusion, I didn't clarify what I actually meant.

What I meant was getting a VPS (virtual private server) somewhere, there are pretty cheap ones available nowadays. And then tunnel the (encrypted) traffic between your computer and the VPS. This is often done by VPN software, like OpenVPN.

However you can easily do it with ssh by creating a SOCKS proxy or some other kind of tunneling.

I think your isp blocked the port that you used for your VPN connection. I assume that if you control the VPN you can change the port to one that isn't blocked.
Bikerman
Got you - I didn't think you would have it wrong Smile
Funnily enough I'm setting up a server as I type - a machine I've built from bits and bobs lying around my workshop. I'm going to stick server 2008 on it and use it to stream the media to my site here on Frih - if I can get this damned disk to format (tip - don't buy a 500gig Hitachi HDS SATAII drive - even if you do see it for 30 quid in a sale - Windows positively refuses to finish a format on it - and of course it fails right at the last few sectors).

I wasn't aware of a limit on size in NFTS on win7 (below the normal 2 terrabyte limit imposed by the MBR), but I've split it into 2 partitions anyway and the first one has now formatted ok...fingers crossed with this second one Smile

On the VPN - I actually tried several ports and it wouldn't connect. That's when I rang my ISP. The guy at the other end said 'hang on a moment......try it now' and it then connected. I figured they must have a way of blocking VPNs and to be honest I don't know very much about that particular technology. TCP/IP I'm good to go, but I haven't done any serious training for a few years and VPNs passed me by. It's only because I'm going to use this new server that I looked into it...
Bondings
Bikerman wrote:
I'm going to stick server 2008 on it

Oh, probably because you lost your Linux cd, I presume? Twisted Evil

Anyway, it seems like we got way off topic. Arrow Let's get back to Turkey.
Bikerman
Yes we have strayed, naughty of us. Let me bring it back to pay my penance.
Anyone interested in which countries are doing what, with regard to internet blocking, needs to know where to get accurate and authoritative data. There is one source :- ONI (Open Network Initiative). They don't get many plugs so I'm going to plug them here.
The ONI is largely staffed and run by academics and although it is funded by grants from various bodies, I have gone through them looking for anything dodgy and found nothing amis - looks pretty clean to me (otherwise I wouldn't plug it).
I first became aware of them last year when a student referenced ONI in an essay about privacy/security. I thought he might have invented it so I checked it out (he got an A).
http://opennet.net/
deanhills
This completely boggles my mind. How the President of Turkey could express himself publicly against the ban, and Tweet his protest on Twitter Smile
Quote:
Turkey's president has used his Twitter account to slam the country's ban on YouTube and some Google services.

In separate tweets sent out late Thursday, Abdullah Gul says he does not approve of the bans and has instructed officials to look into legal ways to reopen access.

Courts have blocked access to YouTube since 2008 over videos deemed to be insulting to Turkey's founder, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

Last week, Turkey extended the ban to some Google pages that use the same Internet Protocol addresses as YouTube.

In January, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, urged Turkey to abolish or reform a law allowing it to block around 3,700 Internet sites.

Maybe Turkey is more democratic than what I thought. Perhaps this is a good sign that the ban will not be lasting that long? Being a typical politician he must have hedged his bet on the positive outcome, and score a few brownie points for himself?
Source: CBSNews
Bikerman
Practical advice for Turks (if any of them are reading this despite the ban, then please pass this around via email).
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/03/howto_evade_tur/
Quote:
- YouTube videos embedded in a web page or blog work fine

- A proxy, specifically http://youtubeproxy.org/ works well. Just visit that page and then find the video you want to watch.

- TOR – The Onion Router — Commenter says it works, but is slow.

- The TORPARK browser

- OperaTor (after setting it to allow Javascript and plug-ins). It works, but it is slow.

- OpenDNS in combination with OperaTor. OperaTor with OpenDNS seemed to be more responsive than using TT’s DNS. I did not try OpenDNS with Torpark.

Others proxies to try include:

http://www.proxymy.com
http://www.proxysmurf.com/
http://www.worksurfing.com/
http://unblockfacebook.com/
http://www.bypassfilter.net/
http://www.ibypass.org/
http://www.ipzap.com/
https://proxify.com/ https://proxify.us/ https://proxify.biz/
http://kproxy.com/index.jsp
http://www.attackcensorship.com/attack-censorship.html
http://mrnewguy.com/
http://www.unblockwebsites.com/
http://spysurfing.com/
https://www.the-cloak.com/anonymous-surfing-home.html
http://www.stupidcensorship.com/
http://www.evilsprouts.co.uk/defilter/
http://www.bypassbrowser.com/
http://www.proxymouse.com/
http://www.fsurf.com/
http://www.browseatwork.com/
http://www.surfonym.com/
http://www.iamnewguy.com/
http://www.ninjaproxy.com/

Read More http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/03/howto_evade_tur/#ixzz0qgvf7A2n
Bondings
Bikerman wrote:
Yes we have strayed, naughty of us. Let me bring it back to pay my penance.
Anyone interested in which countries are doing what, with regard to internet blocking, needs to know where to get accurate and authoritative data. There is one source :- ONI (Open Network Initiative). They don't get many plugs so I'm going to plug them here.
The ONI is largely staffed and run by academics and although it is funded by grants from various bodies, I have gone through them looking for anything dodgy and found nothing amis - looks pretty clean to me (otherwise I wouldn't plug it).
I first became aware of them last year when a student referenced ONI in an essay about privacy/security. I thought he might have invented it so I checked it out (he got an A).
http://opennet.net/

The list doesn't seem complete. It doesn't list Belgium and by my knowledge the isp's here are required to block (by dns) a few websites.
Bikerman
Bondings wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
Yes we have strayed, naughty of us. Let me bring it back to pay my penance.
Anyone interested in which countries are doing what, with regard to internet blocking, needs to know where to get accurate and authoritative data. There is one source :- ONI (Open Network Initiative). They don't get many plugs so I'm going to plug them here.
The ONI is largely staffed and run by academics and although it is funded by grants from various bodies, I have gone through them looking for anything dodgy and found nothing amis - looks pretty clean to me (otherwise I wouldn't plug it).
I first became aware of them last year when a student referenced ONI in an essay about privacy/security. I thought he might have invented it so I checked it out (he got an A).
http://opennet.net/

The list doesn't seem complete. It doesn't list Belgium and by my knowledge the isp's here are required to block (by dns) a few websites.
Interesting - I'll drop them a line and see what they say. I don't think they play favourites so it may be just an oversight...
HalfBloodPrince
HTTP-Tunnel
Toonel

Both of those clients work really well; HTTP-Tunnel is only released as a Windows .exe but works completely fine for me in WINE. Toonel comes as a cross platform .jar file and only requires the Java Runtime Environment installed to work. For both those clients you direct your browser to 127.0.0.1 (localhost), and port 1080 for HTTP-Tunnel or 8080 for Toonel.

They're both much faster than web proxies and don't limit anything; Flash, Java, etc. everything works.
Bikerman
Are you currently 'blocked' then? In Turkey?
LimpFish
Bondings wrote:
LimpFish wrote:
Who's surprised? They persecute and kill christians all the time. This seems almost reasonable compared to that.

Pardon me? We're talking about Turkey here, a secular state. They definitely do not murder and kill Christians all the time (unless you are talking about some kind of serial killer).


Of course I am not saying that the goverment organize these killings, but the climate for christians in turkey is very hard. I provide some links to show kind of what I am talking about.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7108607.stm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100603/wl_nm/us_turkey_bishop_murder_1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians
(Under heading "Republic of Turkey")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_nB9yszx-4
deanhills
LimpFish wrote:
Bondings wrote:
LimpFish wrote:
Who's surprised? They persecute and kill christians all the time. This seems almost reasonable compared to that.

Pardon me? We're talking about Turkey here, a secular state. They definitely do not murder and kill Christians all the time (unless you are talking about some kind of serial killer).


Of course I am not saying that the goverment organize these killings, but the climate for christians in turkey is very hard. I provide some links to show kind of what I am talking about.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7108607.stm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100603/wl_nm/us_turkey_bishop_murder_1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians
(Under heading "Republic of Turkey")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_nB9yszx-4
Wow LimpFish! I did not realize Christians were that unpopular in Turkey, I always thought Turkey was one of the most modern Muslim countries there is. Just learned something new, including that the country only has 100,000 Christians out of 71 million people.
Bondings
LimpFish wrote:
Bondings wrote:
LimpFish wrote:
Who's surprised? They persecute and kill christians all the time. This seems almost reasonable compared to that.

Pardon me? We're talking about Turkey here, a secular state. They definitely do not murder and kill Christians all the time (unless you are talking about some kind of serial killer).


Of course I am not saying that the goverment organize these killings, but the climate for christians in turkey is very hard. I provide some links to show kind of what I am talking about.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7108607.stm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100603/wl_nm/us_turkey_bishop_murder_1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians
(Under heading "Republic of Turkey")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_nB9yszx-4

There are 72 million people living in Turkey, with a lot of diversity. So if there is a group of people responsible for hate crimes against Christians, that does not mean that you may generalize it for the whole country.

By the way, Turkey is one of the top vacation destinations in Europe. Pretty much all tourists are Christians and they are treated pretty well in most cases, at least Turkish people are known for their hospitality.
deanhills
Bondings wrote:
By the way, Turkey is one of the top vacation destinations in Europe. Pretty much all tourists are Christians and they are treated pretty well in most cases, at least Turkish people are known for their hospitality.
True, but the prevalence of intolerance towards Christians in Turkey, especially since it is such a sophisticated country, is surprising. For example, I have not seen that kind of hate crime in Saudi Arabia, singling out specifically Christians. There have been incidents of terrorism against expats as groups and suspected "spies", but not the same as the incidents that have been reported in Turkey that are specifically aimed at Christians. That is an interesting phenomenon. Including the very low percentage of Christians the country.
Bondings
deanhills wrote:
Bondings wrote:
By the way, Turkey is one of the top vacation destinations in Europe. Pretty much all tourists are Christians and they are treated pretty well in most cases, at least Turkish people are known for their hospitality.
True, but the prevalence of intolerance towards Christians in Turkey, especially since it is such a sophisticated country, is surprising. For example, I have not seen that kind of hate crime in Saudi Arabia, singling out specifically Christians. There have been incidents of terrorism against expats as groups and suspected "spies", but not the same as the incidents that have been reported in Turkey that are specifically aimed at Christians. That is an interesting phenomenon. Including the very low percentage of Christians the country.

This doesn't seem like some systematic murders. In the linked articles at least it appears there have only been a few of those murders and that otherwise it is a pretty peaceful region.

Quote:
"We are in a state of sadness and shock. This is something you would never expect in Hatay. It is a safe place," said Fadi Hurigil, head of the Greek Orthodox Church Foundation of Antakya, the Turkish name for Antioch, by telephone.
Bikerman
Quote:
I have not seen that kind of hate crime in Saudi Arabia, singling out specifically Christians.
Well you have not looked very hard then.

Saudi Arabia – Saudi Man Killed Daughter for Converting to Christianity
Phillipino Christian persecuted
Saudi Arabia Officials Condemned for Abuses Against Bibles & Christian Symbols
Various crimes - mostly in Egypt but including many in SA..
Persecution, prison and torture for Christians (profile)
Worst Christian Persecution Expected in Saudi Arabia, N. Korea
SAUDI ARABIA STARTS DEPORTING EXPATRIATE CHRISTIAN PRISONERS
Detailed reports on SA's persecution of Christians

Saudi Arabia is not a good place to be a Christian....trust me on this....(I could cite hundreds of articles if required)
deanhills
Bikerman wrote:
Quote:
I have not seen that kind of hate crime in Saudi Arabia, singling out specifically Christians.
Well you have not looked very hard then.

Saudi Arabia – Saudi Man Killed Daughter for Converting to Christianity
Phillipino Christian persecuted
Saudi Arabia Officials Condemned for Abuses Against Bibles & Christian Symbols
Various crimes - mostly in Egypt but including many in SA..
Persecution, prison and torture for Christians (profile)
Worst Christian Persecution Expected in Saudi Arabia, N. Korea
SAUDI ARABIA STARTS DEPORTING EXPATRIATE CHRISTIAN PRISONERS
Detailed reports on SA's persecution of Christians

Saudi Arabia is not a good place to be a Christian....trust me on this....(I could cite hundreds of articles if required)
Saudi is not a good place to be a non-Muslim in. And definitely not a non-Muslim woman. Are you sure that these people were persecuted for their faith, or that they were non-Muslims? Which is a difference.

Also, are you sure the sources you quoted were good ones, the majority seem to be the very ones that you would usually stay away from?

With regard to the Filipino maid, Filipino and maids of other ethnic groups such as Sri Lankans are badly treated allover the world, specifically in Lebanon there are numerous really bad cases reported. They are vulnerable. However not because of their religion. As non-Muslims and in most cases "cheap labour" they are regarded as infidels and looked upon as human cattle. How those Filipinos land in Saudi Arabia, ESPECIALLY, when they know how they would be looked upon, is mind boggling. There are very thorough reports in their own country of why not to go to Saudi Arabia. If the Saudis are already treating their own Muslim women so badly, why go there when the end product is so well documented?

I would not advise anyone to go to Saudi, it is most certainly not on my list of countries to travel to. However, sweeping statements aside, there are good Saudi people too. People are people. Let's not forget that either. I know of Filipino women who were married to Saudi men, but yes, would be difficult to see how their status could ever be good, as women in the first place, and being non-Muslim.
LimpFish
deanhills wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
Quote:
I have not seen that kind of hate crime in Saudi Arabia, singling out specifically Christians.
Well you have not looked very hard then.

Saudi Arabia – Saudi Man Killed Daughter for Converting to Christianity
Phillipino Christian persecuted
Saudi Arabia Officials Condemned for Abuses Against Bibles & Christian Symbols
Various crimes - mostly in Egypt but including many in SA..
Persecution, prison and torture for Christians (profile)
Worst Christian Persecution Expected in Saudi Arabia, N. Korea
SAUDI ARABIA STARTS DEPORTING EXPATRIATE CHRISTIAN PRISONERS
Detailed reports on SA's persecution of Christians

Saudi Arabia is not a good place to be a Christian....trust me on this....(I could cite hundreds of articles if required)
Saudi is not a good place to be a non-Muslim in. And definitely not a non-Muslim woman. Are you sure that these people were persecuted for their faith, or that they were non-Muslims? Which is a difference.

Also, are you sure the sources you quoted were good ones, the majority seem to be the very ones that you would usually stay away from?

With regard to the Filipino maid, Filipino and maids of other ethnic groups such as Sri Lankans are badly treated allover the world, specifically in Lebanon there are numerous really bad cases reported. They are vulnerable. However not because of their religion. As non-Muslims and in most cases "cheap labour" they are regarded as infidels and looked upon as human cattle. How those Filipinos land in Saudi Arabia, ESPECIALLY, when they know how they would be looked upon, is mind boggling. There are very thorough reports in their own country of why not to go to Saudi Arabia. If the Saudis are already treating their own Muslim women so badly, why go there when the end product is so well documented?

I would not advise anyone to go to Saudi, it is most certainly not on my list of countries to travel to. However, sweeping statements aside, there are good Saudi people too. People are people. Let's not forget that either. I know of Filipino women who were married to Saudi men, but yes, would be difficult to see how their status could ever be good, as women in the first place, and being non-Muslim.


I just read the other day about a Sri Lankan maid in Saudi where the saudi husband and wife of the family she was a maid in, together drove I think 21 or something nails into her body, such as in the forehead, her legs, etc. Apparently she wasnt treated until back in Sri Lanka, a terrible story really.

It was said in the article that the reason for them torturing her like this was that she had said that she thought her workload was too much, that she could not do all work that was assigned to her as she did not have enough time.

Indeed they seem to be treated like human cattle since they were infidels... Which sadly many muslims do.
owenbeckham
Give the freedom to citizen!!!
gandalfthegrey
I still don't understand the desire many Europeans had to admit Turkey into the European Union. Turkey is still struggling between being a modern and progressive nation centered around Istanbul, versus fundamentalism found on the mainland in Asia.
deanhills
gandalfthegrey wrote:
I still don't understand the desire many Europeans had to admit Turkey into the European Union. Turkey is still struggling between being a modern and progressive nation centered around Istanbul, versus fundamentalism found on the mainland in Asia.
it must be trade. There are always economic considerations. Also Turkey is a Gateway to a very strategic part of the world. I do agree with you however that there is plenty of fundamentalism. It is however a very progressive country, with plenty of opportunities for trading.
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