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Saudi women open fire and punch virtue police





paul_indo
Quote:
Saudi women open fire and punch virtue police
May 23, 2010 - 9:24AM
Sydney Morning Herald

Women are reportedly fighting back against Saudi Arabia's so-called virtue police, with one married woman opening fire and another punching an officer.

The incident involving the married woman happened when she was caught in an "illegal seclusion" with another man in Ha'il last week, reported The Los Angeles Times.

"She shot at the officers to distract them and allow the man to escape instant detention," Sheik Mutlak al Nabet, a spokesman for Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, known as the religious police, told the Times.

The woman's husband has asked the police to punish his wife and strip of her Saudi nationality, as it is illegal for women to socialise with unrelated men or walk in public without a male guardian.

A few days earlier a young woman had reportedly punched an officer of the religious police in Al Mubarrazz so badly he had to go to hospital to be treated for bruising.

Saudi newspaper Okaz wrote that the woman lashed out when the policeman challenged on the relationship she had with a man she was with in a public park. She now could face jail or the lash.

The Los Angeles Times reported Saudi human rights activist Wajiha Huwaidar as saying: "People are so fed up with these religious police, and now they have to pay the price for the humiliation they put people through for years and years.

"This is just the beginning and there will be more resistance."


And we're arguing about banning the burqa ha ha.

No one seems to think it worth the effort to argue the case against women's discrimination in the "Muslim World" ha ha

At least some of them seem willing to fight for themselves although most would be too scared

Westerners seem to have been educated to "feel guilty" about everything they once believed and I find it pathetic that they are only to willing to criticise their own countries and cultures while accepting the most outrages injustices in other cultures with barely a word.

It's time the majority joined the condemnation of these countries and cultures. Stand up and give women like this the encouragement of knowing that they are supported by the wider world and that they are not alone in the battle.
deanhills
Agreed. It is particularly bad in Saudi Arabia. Especially with the virtue police. When they wear their black kabaya, it has to be completely closed and bottoned down in the front, if any of the buttons are undone, so that their dress is visible, then they get reprimanded by the virtue police. I think that is worthy of a revolution, totally undignified and lacking of respect for women. Saudi Arabia however may be forced to make some changes soon, as it is completely behind the other countries in the Middle East in the treatment of their women.

The offense of catching a married woman with another man however is a serious one everywhere in the Middle East. Not that it is not being practised, however, the virtue police don't usually go out to look for something like this. It is usually one of the parties (probably the husband who got to find out about it) who complains to the police, and then the police have to investigate. If found guilty, the penalty can be severe, and probably is more severe in Saudi Arabia than other countries of the region.
paul_indo
One thing that offends me is that Saudi Arabia seems to be financing a lot of new mosques and Islamic schools in Indonesia and it appears that they then expect the promotion of their Wahhabi Islam in return and this is destroying the religious tolerance here.

That is one rreason I post so often on Islamic issues.

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0703/43.html

This was back in 2003, the plan is bearing fruit now with regular incidents between Muslims and other religions.

http://www.hatefreeamerica.com/saudi-committee.html
deanhills
paul_indo wrote:
One thing that offends me is that Saudi Arabia seems to be financing a lot of new mosques and Islamic schools in Indonesia and it appears that they then expect the promotion of their Wahhabi Islam in return and this is destroying the religious tolerance here.

That is one rreason I post so often on Islamic issues.
OK. Maybe that is understandable. If I had something pushed down my throat like that, probably I would have resisted similarly. I must say your postings are educational though, I am learning a lot from you. I never realized that Saudi Arabia was so involved with Indonesia. Is this link between the two countries economically as well? Or only religious?
Bikerman
Quote:
Westerners seem to have been educated to "feel guilty" about everything they once believed and I find it pathetic that they are only to willing to criticise their own countries and cultures while accepting the most outrages injustices in other cultures with barely a word.
I don't know what you mean by 'westerners'. If you mean the general population of the western hemisphere then this clearly isn't true. A quick search on these forums for Saudi will highlight a very large number of threads, and most contain condemnation and/or criticism of that particular country/regime.
If you mean Politicians then I think you will find that those in government are wary about offending the Saudis because of the huge leverage they have (how much of the remaining oil is under Saudi Arabia? A goodly proportion. And what if Saudi Arabia get a bit miffed and decide to slow OPEC supply down a bit - oil crisis in days.
paul_indo
What's going on, this post was invisible?
HalfBloodPrince
It's getting better. I know I don't have anything to show you, but having lived there for 12 years, I can assure you that Saudi Arabia is getting much, much better. Over the years you will see these cases of cracking down on "loose" women decrease very much. Again, I know what I'm saying may be meaningless as I'm just speaking from experience, but at least over the last 5 years the place has improved and modernized. Just the other day at the mall I saw a giant perfume ad with a semi naked woman sprawled twenty feet across the wall - yes, in Saudi Arabia. This is a huge deviation from the standard practice of blacking out/completely blurring anything of female origin that is slowly fading away. The muttawa (religious police) are much more scarce nowadays, and slowly women are finding themselves able to appear in public without abayas. Five years ago a woman walking on the street or in the mall without an abaya would certainly get odd looks and perhaps get snapped at by a muttawa - that's not the case any more and thankfully the place is improving. You'll see a lot of women in bikinis at the beach, etc. It's a pretty normal place when you live there. Well that's my little unbiased/non-media report Smile
deanhills
HalfBloodPrince wrote:
It's getting better. I know I don't have anything to show you, but having lived there for 12 years, I can assure you that Saudi Arabia is getting much, much better. Over the years you will see these cases of cracking down on "loose" women decrease very much. Again, I know what I'm saying may be meaningless as I'm just speaking from experience, but at least over the last 5 years the place has improved and modernized. Just the other day at the mall I saw a giant perfume ad with a semi naked woman sprawled twenty feet across the wall - yes, in Saudi Arabia. This is a huge deviation from the standard practice of blacking out/completely blurring anything of female origin that is slowly fading away. The muttawa (religious police) are much more scarce nowadays, and slowly women are finding themselves able to appear in public without abayas. Five years ago a woman walking on the street or in the mall without an abaya would certainly get odd looks and perhaps get snapped at by a muttawa - that's not the case any more and thankfully the place is improving. You'll see a lot of women in bikinis at the beach, etc. It's a pretty normal place when you live there. Well that's my little unbiased/non-media report Smile
I would agree with you that it may have improved, but then the better comes from such a very low base, in comparison with the other neighbouring countries such as Qatar, UAE and Oman, that technically those women are still being treated like chattel and humiliated on a daily basis. You don't see any of that in the other neighbouring countries, and people are very reluctant to visit Saudi because of that reason.
Bikerman
Quote:
A Dubai appeals court on Sunday upheld a one-month prison sentence for a British couple convicted of kissing in a restaurant.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/dubai/7613229/British-woman-goes-to-jail-in-Dubai-kissing-case.html

(Not that I disagree with the main point - I don't - but let's not pretend everything is rosy in ANY gulf state, because it is not.)
deanhills
Bikerman wrote:
Quote:
A Dubai appeals court on Sunday upheld a one-month prison sentence for a British couple convicted of kissing in a restaurant.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/dubai/7613229/British-woman-goes-to-jail-in-Dubai-kissing-case.html

(Not that I disagree with the main point - I don't - but let's not pretend everything is rosy in ANY gulf state, because it is not.)
Did I say that it was? I don't think so. I was saying Saudi was behind countries like the UAE, Qatar and Oman, and I was referring specifically to the treatment of women as per the topic of the thread. Saudi is miles and miles behind in the treatment of their women.

In the article that you cited, the complaint was actually made by an Emirati woman. I can't imagine that she would have submitted a complaint for just a peck on the cheek. It was also very dumb for the expat to have a public kissing session in a family restaurant in a country with a culture that would obviously frown on that. I've seen a similar situation, where the husband was present as well, who then asked the owner of the restaurant to intervene in a smooching session. He was deeply offended for his family. I imagine if one is a guest in a country, that one should at least behave as a guest by showing some respect for its customs.
Bikerman
As I said, there is no doubt that UAE is way better than Saudi (and other states in the area) - I don't dispute that. The point is not that she was imprisoned for a kiss - that is bad enough. The point is that the woman who made the accusation didn't even appear after doing so and yet the court STILL convicted. That is bollox - any proper court would have thrown it out there and then when the prosecution could not produce the witness.
deanhills
Bikerman wrote:
As I said, there is no doubt that UAE is way better than Saudi (and other states in the area) - I don't dispute that. The point is not that she was imprisoned for a kiss - that is bad enough. The point is that the woman who made the accusation didn't even appear after doing so and yet the court STILL convicted. That is bollox - any proper court would have thrown it out there and then when the prosecution could not produce the witness.
OK, on that I do agree. Yet at the same time, the expat still behaved without common sense. She broke the rule of the land. Most important for her would have been to apologize profusely, and make amends to the family. Show genuine concern for the "harm" that has been done. Instead of denying.
Bikerman
deanhills wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
As I said, there is no doubt that UAE is way better than Saudi (and other states in the area) - I don't dispute that. The point is not that she was imprisoned for a kiss - that is bad enough. The point is that the woman who made the accusation didn't even appear after doing so and yet the court STILL convicted. That is bollox - any proper court would have thrown it out there and then when the prosecution could not produce the witness.
OK, on that I do agree. Yet at the same time, the expat still behaved without common sense. She broke the rule of the land. Most important for her would have been to apologize profusely, and make amends to the family. Show genuine concern for the "harm" that has been done. Instead of denying.

Err, no, sorry I cannot go along with that. Kissing a partner does no harm at all to the women who reported her - she didn't have to look. Nor do I think they would have been 'going at it'. It was a public eating place and others would have objected had they been really making a show of themselves. I see no reason to believe that it was anything other than the couple claim, and since there are apparently no witnesses saying otherwise then it is astonishing that the matter is still going on.
paul_indo
Reposting the invisible one, seems to work now?

To Deanhills
In recent times Indonesia has been forging closer ties with the middle east particularly in the field of Sharia banking also in less formal sectors


http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2009/12/30/new-mosque-new-koran.html


http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/02/24/another-terror-supect-stands-trial-over-jakarta-hotel-bombings.html

A muslims views on the issue

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/02/15/westernization-vs-arabization.html

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/01/05/insight-gus-dur-his-cultural-legacy-lives.html

quote from above source

Quote:
This was where his idea of indigenization came in. In his view there is no need to put Islam culturally in the context of its origin, Saudi Arabia.

In Indonesia, Islam would thrive and make no discordance if it developed in the country’s socio-cultural context. Because of that, it is incumbent upon Islam to accept pluralism and accommodate indigenous and local cultures. Islam should also serve as a complementary factor in Indonesia’s socio-cultural and political life.

It was in this regard that once he posed the rhetorical question, “Why must we use the Arab word shalat [or pray] if the Indonesian term sembahyang is no less true [than the former in meaning]?”

And on another occasion he argued for the socio-cultural comparability of the Arabic “Assalamualaikum” with local greetings such as “Selamat pagi”.

These viewpoints became controversial only because many did not grasp the noble intention behind them.


to bikerman

See my post "The manipulation of Western youth"
http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-116670.html

thanks for the comments guys, nothing like a good discussion.
Bikerman
paul_indo wrote:
to bikerman

See my post "The manipulation of Western youth"
http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-116670.html

thanks for the comments guys, nothing like a good discussion.

I've seen it and it doesn't impress I'm afraid...
deanhills
Thanks for all the info paul_indo. Looks as though there is growing public sentiment against Saudi "terrorism" in Indonesia?

We are still on the subject of Saudi women though aren't we? I was talking to someone a few days ago, and there is really so much freedom we are taking for granted in Western countries especially in comparison with women in Saudi. For example, Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-muslim men, however muslim men are allowed to marry non-muslim women. I find the reasons for this completely baffling, refer the article below and very interesting discussion following the article. The discussion is particularly interesting as it is exclusively among Muslim women, and quite revealing of their attitudes in general:

http://sisters.islamway.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=230
Xanify
Hell yes! It's about time they fought back. Very Happy
c'tair
This just shows how western ideals have corrupted the great society of allah.

But in all seriousness, good, humans finally fighting to be treated like humans. Makes me kinda proud of them, actually.
deanhills
c'tair wrote:
This just shows how western ideals have corrupted the great society of allah.

But in all seriousness, good, humans finally fighting to be treated like humans. Makes me kinda proud of them, actually.
Good point. I was watching a movie on TV recently - Iron Jawed Ladies (with Hilary Swank playing Alice Paul) about the battles women had to go through in the US to be able to get citizenship and the vote. Probably difficult to remember that at one stage women were similarly treated in Western countries, less than a century ago.

Quote:
The efforts of the women’s suffrage organizations met with determined resistance. By seeking a voice in politics, women were challenging the conventional belief that women’s proper sphere of influence was domestic, while men properly dominated the public sphere, including the political process. Even many women deplored the effort to extend the vote to women. In 1911, Josephine Dodge, the wife of a leading New York capitalist, formed the National Association Opposed to Woman Suffrage. Like many other anti-suffragists, Dodge advised women to influence policy from behind the scenes, through their influence on men. By involving themselves in politics, she insisted, women would undermine their moral and spiritual role, as well as create chaos by meddling in matters that were beyond their understanding.

Source: The Women's Suffrage Movement in the United States
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