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Health Care bill





yagnyavalkya
Can somebody tell why the health care bill is being opposed in the US and who benefits from the bill and who will be affected negatively by it
ocalhoun
Well, I oppose it because I want government to shrink, not grow. Others may have different reasons. (I also question the constitutionality of it.)

As for who benefits, that would be the people who want health insurance, but can't get it because it's too expensive, or because they have existing medical conditions. It is also supposed to prevent insurance companies from canceling coverage of people when they become ill.

Who is affected negatively?
- Those who don't have and don't want insurance will be forced to buy it anyway.
- Those who end up paying for the subsidies that help the poor afford insurance. (Not certain who that is in this version of the legislation.)
--It is also another step in trading freedom for security... A road that ends in having neither.
handfleisch
yagnyavalkya wrote:
Can somebody tell why the health care bill is being opposed in the US and who benefits from the bill and who will be affected negatively by it


The primary energy against the health care bill came from large corporations that stand to lose money if universal health insurance was adopted; overwhelmingly, they are the ones who would be affected negatively.

These corporations in the pharmaceutical and insurance business make billions of dollars of profit off of sick people, often in very dishonest or unethical ways -- inflating prices, denying payments for treatment to people who have expensive illnesses, cutting people from insurance when they get sick and raising premiums even when they are making mega-profits.

These corporations started the organizations that mobilized people against the health care bill -- for example, Freedomworks started and promoted much of the movement that loudly protested the bill; Freedomworks is a front for large corporations. The same big money runs media that did propaganda against the bill on talk radio and FOX as well as putting their "experts" (paid shills) on legitimate news outlets. (Talk radio has a lot of power in the USA). Right wing politicians that reflexively oppose anything that might hurt corporate profit also did a lot of propaganda, telling Americans such outrageous lies as the health care bill would mean "death panels" for old people. Other propaganda and lies intended to scare people by calling the bill "socialism" that would somehow take away their freedom, make everything more expensive, make health care worse in the USA.

Even though most Americans historically support the idea of health care reform, all this propaganda resulted in some Americans being confused and anxious about the bill, and tending to oppose it as a whole even though they supported most of the individual parts of it. Also, some general anti-Congress feeling came out over the negotiations during the bill.

However, now that the bill has won and is law, polls say most Americans support it, and Obama's popularity even went up.

I hope this answers your question.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/nov05election/detail?blogid=14&entry_id=59755
Quote:
And a new Gallup Poll released this afternoon finds an immediate and dramatic shift in public opinion toward the newly enacted health-reform law.

In a period of two weeks, the public went from a net 3 percentage points negative on the Democratic overhaul of our health-care system to a net positive of 9 points.

Not overwhelming approval, by any means, but not exactly the overwhelming public rejection cited by Republicans in House floor debate this past weekend.

President Obama is the particular beneficiary of the public's shift in opinion. His handling of health care is viewed much more favorably than either congressional Democrats or Republicans.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/nov05election/detail?blogid=14&entry_id=59755#ixzz0jrnjmioX
deanhills
handfleisch wrote:
yagnyavalkya wrote:
Can somebody tell why the health care bill is being opposed in the US and who benefits from the bill and who will be affected negatively by it

Even though most Americans historically support the idea of health care reform, all this propaganda resulted in some Americans being confused and anxious about the bill, and tending to oppose it as a whole even though they supported most of the individual parts of it. Also, some general anti-Congress feeling came out over the negotiations during the bill.
This is one point of view "yagnyavalkya". There are Americans who are confused in both parties, not only the one party, and for good reasons. The Bill is not easy to read. The present Health Care Reform Bill is being opposed by Americans (in both parties by the way) who feel that the Bill needs to be rewritten as it has become too long and clumsy to implement. It is more than 2000 pages long, and with all the wheels and deals Obama and the Dems had to do to get votes for the Bill and to get it passed, they kept on adding band-aid "concessionary" regulations to the Bill. People also think that the Bill in its current form is going to be very costly to implement and that the United States cannot afford the cost of the Bill. It is good to keep in mind that most of the Americans who are opposing Obama's Health Care Reform Bill are not opposing health care reform, they are specifically opposing the Health Care Reform bill of Obama and the Dems, as per the above reasons.
handfleisch
deanhills wrote:
handfleisch wrote:
yagnyavalkya wrote:
Can somebody tell why the health care bill is being opposed in the US and who benefits from the bill and who will be affected negatively by it

Even though most Americans historically support the idea of health care reform, all this propaganda resulted in some Americans being confused and anxious about the bill, and tending to oppose it as a whole even though they supported most of the individual parts of it. Also, some general anti-Congress feeling came out over the negotiations during the bill.
This is one point of view "yagnyavalkya". There are Americans who are confused in both parties, not only the one party, and for good reasons. The Bill is not easy to read. The present Health Care Reform Bill is being opposed by Americans (in both parties by the way) who feel that the Bill needs to be rewritten as it has become too long and clumsy to implement. It is more than 2000 pages long, and with all the wheels and deals Obama and the Dems had to do to get votes for the Bill and to get it passed, they kept on adding band-aid "concessionary" regulations to the Bill. People also think that the Bill in its current form is going to be very costly to implement and that the United States cannot afford the cost of the Bill. It is good to keep in mind that most of the Americans who are opposing Obama's Health Care Reform Bill are not opposing health care reform, they are specifically opposing the Health Care Reform bill of Obama and the Dems, as per the above reasons.


Your reply contains some misleading statements. You say "people also think that the Bill in its current form is going to be very costly", but the Congressional Budget Office, a nonpartisan committee, has calculated it will actually save money and lower the deficit. Therefore if people think the bill will do something that it will not, it is because those same PR companies fronting for corporations have successfully spread this falsehood. You are right, of course, that many people may think this, but it should be stated that they think it erroneously.

Another misleading statement is that "most of the Americans who are opposing Obama's Health Care Reform Bill are not opposing health care reform, they are specifically opposing the Health Care Reform bill of Obama and the Dems". In fact, as I said in my post, most Americans supported the individual, separate aspects of the bill when asked about their opinion on taking each measures, but then when asked if they support the bill they would say no. This would indicate a definite confusion or perhaps a misconception of the bill, most likely from the negative, untrue PR campaign, as I stated.
ocalhoun
handfleisch wrote:
deanhills wrote:
handfleisch wrote:
yagnyavalkya wrote:
Can somebody tell why the health care bill is being opposed in the US and who benefits from the bill and who will be affected negatively by it

Even though most Americans historically support the idea of health care reform, all this propaganda resulted in some Americans being confused and anxious about the bill, and tending to oppose it as a whole even though they supported most of the individual parts of it. Also, some general anti-Congress feeling came out over the negotiations during the bill.
This is one point of view "yagnyavalkya". There are Americans who are confused in both parties, not only the one party, and for good reasons. The Bill is not easy to read. The present Health Care Reform Bill is being opposed by Americans (in both parties by the way) who feel that the Bill needs to be rewritten as it has become too long and clumsy to implement. It is more than 2000 pages long, and with all the wheels and deals Obama and the Dems had to do to get votes for the Bill and to get it passed, they kept on adding band-aid "concessionary" regulations to the Bill. People also think that the Bill in its current form is going to be very costly to implement and that the United States cannot afford the cost of the Bill. It is good to keep in mind that most of the Americans who are opposing Obama's Health Care Reform Bill are not opposing health care reform, they are specifically opposing the Health Care Reform bill of Obama and the Dems, as per the above reasons.


Your reply contains some misleading statements. You say "people also think that the Bill in its current form is going to be very costly", but the Congressional Budget Office, a nonpartisan committee, has calculated it will actually save money and lower the deficit.

It gives the government a net gain-- by increasing government income.
It isn't free of charge to the taxpayer though.
Quote:

Another misleading statement is that "most of the Americans who are opposing Obama's Health Care Reform Bill are not opposing health care reform, they are specifically opposing the Health Care Reform bill of Obama and the Dems". In fact, as I said in my post, most Americans supported the individual, separate aspects of the bill when asked about their opinion on taking each measures, but then when asked if they support the bill they would say no. This would indicate a definite confusion or perhaps a misconception of the bill, most likely from the negative, untrue PR campaign, as I stated.

If people support all the individual measures, but don't support the bill, why not start over, and pass the measures individually?
(Answer: 1- That wouldn't provide the 'big win' of passing the bill. 2- It would make adding in extra, unrelated, things to the bill more difficult. 3- They had to pass the bill quickly, before public sentiment could manifest in elections.)
deanhills
ocalhoun wrote:
If people support all the individual measures, but don't support the bill, why not start over, and pass the measures individually?
(Answer: 1- That wouldn't provide the 'big win' of passing the bill. 2- It would make adding in extra, unrelated, things to the bill more difficult. 3- They had to pass the bill quickly, before public sentiment could manifest in elections.)
Well put Ocalhoun, I did not tie up the public sentiment and elections, and that is obviously what happened. I wonder whether anyone can take legal action against the Government for trying to push through a Bill as fast as they did, when the Bill was not in a ready shape by a long shot? Also, Obama and the Dems must have spend millions of US dollars on their campaigns, right from the beginning of his Presidency? Have they calculated how much all those campaigns cost, and who is going to pay for it?
Voodoocat
Quote:
Your reply contains some misleading statements. You say "people also think that the Bill in its current form is going to be very costly", but the Congressional Budget Office, a nonpartisan committee, has calculated it will actually save money and lower the deficit.


Wrong! The CBO itself clarified their earlier claim of savings (convientiently AFTER the healthcare bill was passed):

Quote:
To describe the full amount of hospital insurance trust fund savings as both improving the government’s ability to pay future Medicare benefits and financing new spending outside of Medicare would essentially double-count a large share of those savings, and thus overstate the improvement in the government’s fiscal position,” the budget office said.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/29/health/policy/29health.html

Additionally, the healthcare bill has already had a very negative impact on private business: ATT, Caterpillar, and Verizon just to name a few.

Quote:
Nearly 15 companies have announced a total of $2.8 billion of expenses due to health care reforms.


http://www.themoneytimes.com/featured/20100402/verizon-records-970mn-costs-under-us-healthcare-bill-id-10106393.html
Where are the savings?
ocalhoun
Voodoocat wrote:

Where are the savings?

1- In government coffers.
2- In the pockets of people receiving government subsidy to help pay for insurance.
premium
i really dont get why americans are so against free health care. In works ok in the UK, the people who earn the most pay for their prescriptions. But none working, poor people who may not be able to afford treatment can get it on the national health.

surley this is good for you americans. or are you all that selfish you dont care about the people who cant afford health care in your country.
jmi256
premium wrote:
i really dont get why americans are so against free health care. In works ok in the UK, the people who earn the most pay for their prescriptions. But none working, poor people who may not be able to afford treatment can get it on the national health.

surley this is good for you americans. or are you all that selfish you dont care about the people who cant afford health care in your country.

As noted above (and elsewhere) nothing is “free.” It’s not about being “selfish” but rather a point of view that the focus of healthcare reform should be lowering costs and increasing quality rather than the bill passed by Obama and the Democrats that increases premium costs, increases taxes and will most likely lead to a decrease in quality as Medicare is defunded. There are already many programs that help the truly needy, but by forcing everyone to buy insurance from the health insurance companies, Obama and the Democrats have repaid the insurance companies, who made Obama and the Democratic leadership the biggest recipients of their political contributions, by handing them an increased source of customers who will be mandated by law to purchase their products or face stiff fines (and possibly jail time if they break the law).
premium
in 10 years time you will all look back and say this its actually a good thing. you dont see it now, but you americans dont like change really. but it will be better
jmi256
premium wrote:
in 10 years time you will all look back and say this its actually a good thing. you dont see it now, but you americans dont like change really. but it will be better


So Obama and the Democrats know what's best for citizens, even better than the citizens themselves? That's a scary proposition. That's nice wishful thinking that by some magical process Americans will appreciate totalitarianism, but I doubt the American people will look back and be thankful that the Democrats in Washington went against their hopes and interests to pass a bill they clearly said they didn't want. I'm sure they will also not like the government-run mess that is sure to come, the 10-12% increase in premiums right off the bat, increased tax burdens and less money in Medicare for seniors.
ocalhoun
premium wrote:
in 10 years time you will all look back and say this its actually a good thing. you dont see it now, but you americans dont like change really. but it will be better

Condescending much?

You sound like parents telling their child 'you'll thank me when you're older'...
handfleisch
premium wrote:
i really dont get why americans are so against free health care. In works ok in the UK, the people who earn the most pay for their prescriptions. But none working, poor people who may not be able to afford treatment can get it on the national health.

surley this is good for you americans. or are you all that selfish you dont care about the people who cant afford health care in your country.


First, please remember that a majority of Americans have always favored government-sponsored health care.

But yes you are right, a significant minority of Americans have a knee-jerk response against universal health care, and it is bizarre by any reasonable standard. I don't know if it is selfishness as you say, or envy, greed, anger, a bit of sadism, or just simplemindedness (being led by corporate / conservative propaganda) that causes it. But the tide is turning now, and (finally) the majority are winning on this basic human right.
deanhills
handfleisch wrote:
and (finally) the majority are winning on this basic human right.
I don't see a clearcut majority here. A large number of the votes were made through deals and closed room negotiations, completely artificially. For a Bill with as serious repercussions as there are certain to be financially as well as socially, there should have been a rule for a two thirds majority in both Congress and the Senate. That to me is majority rule. Not just scraping through by the skin of their teeth.

If you look at your famous polls, there is also no indication of a clear, and I mean a really clear majority, well over the 50% supporting the Healthcare Reform Bill.

And this is before we get to check on the messiness of a Bill that has had regulations added to it, like band-aid strips resulting in a totally chaotic Bill, the consquences of which obviously are going to result in an enormous expense in administrative cost, just to figure out what it was supposed to have said.

If this is an "achievement" for the Dems, then I don't think very much of their standards at all. As this bill is most certainly going to haunt them for decades to come, provided it does not get nixed by the States first.
liljp617
jmi256 wrote:
premium wrote:
in 10 years time you will all look back and say this its actually a good thing. you dont see it now, but you americans dont like change really. but it will be better


So Obama and the Democrats know what's best for citizens, even better than the citizens themselves?


The overwhelming majority of citizens certainly don't know what's best for them in the big picture. That doesn't imply any politician does, however.
deanhills
liljp617 wrote:
jmi256 wrote:
premium wrote:
in 10 years time you will all look back and say this its actually a good thing. you dont see it now, but you americans dont like change really. but it will be better


So Obama and the Democrats know what's best for citizens, even better than the citizens themselves?


The overwhelming majority of citizens certainly don't know what's best for them in the big picture. That doesn't imply any politician does, however.
Right, including Obama and the Democrats. Difference is that Obama and the Dems think they do know what is best, and even worse than that think everyone else who thinks differently is mistaken or on the wrong track.
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