Make your own decision! . . . by Bluedoll
The world is coming to an end. All the systems are crashing, nothing is working like it should be, there is mayhem, hostility and general destruction. Nothing can be done, hope seems lost!
Someone tells you there is another way and you have nothing to loose by trying. Science isn’t providing the solutions at least not in time, people are fighting and everyone is disagreeing on everything.
All you need to do is put forth a little effort with some kind of sincerity and pray for help. But you do not believe in God, don’t trust it or have simply given up and feel like submitting to defeat.
Do you try to open your heart and give it an attempt or do you stick to your present course of action or non-action?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Hypothetical Question presented in the Philosophy and Religion Section - - - - - - - - - - -
_______________________________________________________________
"and you tell me over and over and over again my friend, you don't believe we're on the eve of distruction, no you don't believe we're on the eve of distruction," . . . Bob Dylan
Er...in other words, do you adopt an irrational 'solution' or not?
I think not.
If systems are crashing then there is a logical reason for it. Far better to address the causes than address a mythical entity. Besides, which particular entity would you be praying to? Budhha? Jesus? Yaweh? Zeus? All-mother Earth? The Invisible Pink Unicorn?
Resorting to superstition doesn't have a great track record. Throughout history people have prayed to sky faeries when in times of dire peril. We can imagine the inhabitants of Pompeii praying to their assorted deities when the volcano started erupting. We certainly know that thousands of people were busy praying in 2004 when the tidal wave struck Asia.
The notion that some entity will step in and sort out the problem(s) seems to me to be not only useless, from a practical point of view, but also positively damaging, since it seems to offer a solution without actually doing so - leading to complacency. We have seen this attitude expressed quite clearly by the major Christian religions over history in response to all sorts of physical and social dangers - "trust in the Lord and everything will be fine".
Well, sorry to inject some reality here but, no, it really won't be.
One could pose the same hypothetical in slightly different terms.
The world that you know is coming to an end. You can try to understand why, and either adapt or modify to suit, or you can jump up and down on the spot, in the hope that the vibrations you cause will somehow set everything to rights....
Last edited by Bikerman on Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
Isn't there a saying along the lines of God only helps those who help themselves? I'm inclined to agree with Chris that this is an irrational approach whereas the problem requires a rational approach. Praying would be good from the point of view that it could provide some comfort and motivate people positively, but in the end of the day, people would have to get together and figure out how they can solve the problem.
You know, I have nothing against people resorting to religion for emotional "back-up" in times of crisis. We all have our own way of dealing with traumatic events. Some people flip out, some people pray, etc. The thing is, prayer by itself is completely useless in times of crisis. Russians have an old saying, "pray for God, but swim for shore"(at least I think it's a Russian adage). If one absolutely must pray to a God for emotional comfort or piece of mind or whatever, that's fine. Just don't forget to put in some of your own effort.
I don't have a problem with people praying either. In this scenario, however, we are offered prayer as a potential solution (as opposed to science which is hypothesised to be failing).
It would surely be better to devote one's energies to making the science succeed, rather than spending those energies trying to talk to the sky fairy...
If you want to do both, then fine - but it should be recognised that the former is the way to get an actual solution and the latter is concerned with personal matters.
You know what? i'm going to take this question at face value, and assume a hypothetical scenario where the end is near, i know it, and i know there is absolutely nothing practical i can do to prevent it. Any possible solution that may exist, if any, are simply beyond even the most optimistic assessment of my ability to figure out.
So, as Bikerman put it, the systems are crashing, and there might be a logical reason for it... but i know it's utterly beyond my power to fix it. Normally i would do as Bikerman says - spend my last hours trying to fix it... but for the sake of the hypothetical, let's say i recognize that as functionally impossible (or at least completely beyond my power).
Then someone comes up to me and says they have a solution: prayer. So, knowing i have no other options, do i pray?
Don't be silly. ^_^ i get me a 40 of quality vodka, a decent sound system with a library of nice tunes, a bunch of like-minded friends, and damn well earn my place in Hell - like, seriously, the first words out of the Devil's mouth when he sees me are gonna be, "Dude... that was ****** awesome."
i'm not being flip either. If the end was near, and i knew it, and i knew there was no way to avoid it, i'm not dying on my knees. (Well, maybe on my knees, and possibly crying out to God, but not in the praying sense.) If i'm not partying up my last hours, i will choose a good book and curl up to read as much as i can until time runs out. Or, i might find a good place to sit, and watch the final fireworks.
Why not? All of these things have as much chance of fixing the problem as prayer, after all, and if the end is inevitable, i'd rather spend it making friends and/or myself happy than some imaginary sky fairy.
^ Ooh.. that gives me an interesting idea for a new topic...
*spin-off time*
| Indi wrote: |
| Then someone comes up to me and says they have a solution: prayer. So, knowing i have no other options, do i pray?. |
Playing devil's advocate here, isn't this exactly where we are right now? All of us know we are going to die, we all know there is nothing we can do about it, we are definitely going to die, whether we want to or not. We can't fix that. We could perhaps postpone it a little by living good life styles but in the end death is a fact of life.
So are we on a permanent partying spree as a result (well I guess some are), or are we building new houses, raising families, and finding our own missions of life and trying to do things we enjoy to do? Even trying to figure out the meaning of life?
I think even in this hypothetical situation, if someone comes with "prayer" as something that would miraculously keep me alive for the rest of eternity, I would keep to practical solutions for practical daily living in proper perspective. This is a good analogy however for a philosophy of life that will make the most of life for the living instead of focussing on escape from the inevitable. | deanhills wrote: |
| Playing devil's advocate here, |
^.^ Isn't that an odd situation now!
The Devil's advocate is God's advocate. ^.^ | ocalhoun wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: | | Playing devil's advocate here, |
^.^ Isn't that an odd situation now!
The Devil's advocate is God's advocate. ^.^ |
Are you sure that is what I was saying? I was saying that although prayer has a place in our lives, it can't be a cop-out measure. We have our lives to take care off in the meanwhile. | deanhills wrote: |
| Playing devil's advocate here, isn't this exactly where we are right now? All of us know we are going to die, we all know there is nothing we can do about it, we are definitely going to die, whether we want to or not. We can't fix that. We could perhaps postpone it a little by living good life styles but in the end death is a fact of life. |
Do you have no sense of time? ^_^; Do you put on your best suit for an interview you will have... two weeks before the interview? Do you apply for your 65+ retirement pension when you are 18?
Of course not. Yes, dying is inevitable (maybe!), but not dying today, or even tomorrow, or even next year. Until that inevitability has a realistic timeline, there is no rational reason to live your life as if it's time is immediately imminent.
| deanhills wrote: |
| So are we on a permanent partying spree as a result (well I guess some are), or are we building new houses, raising families, and finding our own missions of life and trying to do things we enjoy to do? Even trying to figure out the meaning of life? |
One does not need any notion of the "meaning of life" - if a thing even exists - to want to try and make the lives of people around us, and people that will come after us, better lives. To put it bluntly, why wouldn't you want to try and make life for everyone better? i don't really need any grand philosophy to say, "Well, my life isn't that uncomfortable, largely due to the efforts of people before me, but also due to the people around me right now. Seems only fair to make an effort to return the favour." Indeed, it takes philosophical gymnastics to justify not trying to help make the world a better place. | Indi wrote: |
Of course not. Yes, dying is inevitable (maybe!), but not dying today, or even tomorrow, or even next year. Until that inevitability has a realistic timeline, there is no rational reason to live your life as if it's time is immediately imminent.
|
While there is no rational reason to live as if it is immediately imminent, there is reason to live as if it is imminent. Doing so will help you avoid those death-bed regrets. | Indi wrote: |
Do you have no sense of time? ^_^; Do you put on your best suit for an interview you will have... two weeks before the interview? Do you apply for your 65+ retirement pension when you are 18?
Of course not. Yes, dying is inevitable (maybe!), but not dying today, or even tomorrow, or even next year. Until that inevitability has a realistic timeline, there is no rational reason to live your life as if it's time is immediately imminent.
|
Dying today is quite a normal expectation. We could die at any moment for a number of reasons. Death is real. In addition, I saw a programme recently of an ozzie calculating the number of really "living" hours he could realistically expect to have, and only then listing the reasons for living life full out. So why do we need to have a major threat hanging over us to live life to its fullest? Maybe this analogy is a good reason for checking up why we aren't doing what we regard as real "fun" right now. Good chance we will die tomorrow.
| Indi wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: | | So are we on a permanent partying spree as a result (well I guess some are), or are we building new houses, raising families, and finding our own missions of life and trying to do things we enjoy to do? Even trying to figure out the meaning of life? |
One does not need any notion of the "meaning of life" - if a thing even exists - to want to try and make the lives of people around us, and people that will come after us, better lives. To put it bluntly, why wouldn't you want to try and make life for everyone better? i don't really need any grand philosophy to say, "Well, my life isn't that uncomfortable, largely due to the efforts of people before me, but also due to the people around me right now. Seems only fair to make an effort to return the favour." Indeed, it takes philosophical gymnastics to justify not trying to help make the world a better place. |
I don't think I quite get this one Indi. I doubt I mentioned any community service, or making other people's lives meaningful. I was talking about our own lives relative to our own selves. | deanhills wrote: |
| Dying today is quite a normal expectation. |
Good grief, no it's not. ^_^; Even you don't really expect to die today. Don't you have plans for something beyond today, like this weekend?
Dying today is a possibility, but most certainly not an expectation for most people. It's not even a significant probability. There is no "Good chance we will die tomorrow", don't be absurd. And that's why there's no point in worrying too much about it.
It's inevitable, sure, which is why you make preparations for just in case. But once that's taken care of, forget about it and live your life. There's no rational reason to worry about death once you've taken the steps you need to take in preparation for it.
| deanhills wrote: |
| I don't think I quite get this one Indi. I doubt I mentioned any community service, or making other people's lives meaningful. I was talking about our own lives relative to our own selves. |
My life "relative to my own self" revolves around the fact that i live in a society, and want to make it better. Making society better makes my own life better, while at the same time making everyone else's better. It makes no sense to consider your own life in a vacuum without considering the community around. This world is my world in the same way that this life is my life - there is no real distinction between the two for me. i try to make my life/world better because it doesn't make sense not to, and plenty or reasons why i should. | Indi wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: | | Dying today is quite a normal expectation. |
Good grief, no it's not. ^_^; Even you don't really expect to die today. Don't you have plans for something beyond today, like this weekend?
Dying today is a possibility, but most certainly not an expectation for most people. It's not even a significant probability. There is no "Good chance we will die tomorrow", don't be absurd. And that's why there's no point in worrying too much about it.
It's inevitable, sure, which is why you make preparations for just in case. But once that's taken care of, forget about it and live your life. There's no rational reason to worry about death once you've taken the steps you need to take in preparation for it. |
Where I am in the Middle East and with the way they are driving, it is high-risk living every day. So death is real to me every day. That obviously does not mean that I'm not making plans in the meanwhile. Life goes on regardless of the expectation of death.
| Indi wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: | | I don't think I quite get this one Indi. I doubt I mentioned any community service, or making other people's lives meaningful. I was talking about our own lives relative to our own selves. |
My life "relative to my own self" revolves around the fact that i live in a society, and want to make it better. Making society better makes my own life better, while at the same time making everyone else's better. It makes no sense to consider your own life in a vacuum without considering the community around. This world is my world in the same way that this life is my life - there is no real distinction between the two for me. i try to make my life/world better because it doesn't make sense not to, and plenty or reasons why i should. |
I like the way you put this Indi as this is obviously very true. One realizes this even more when you move from one country to another and you realize how much you have left of yourself behind that belongs to your neighbour, your family, friends and society. It is impossible to consider our lives in a vacuum.
