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I'm not sure if this falls under a "sub-category" of "the meaning of life".
Ignore the human "need" to know the "something bigger awaits" or the need of the comfort that religion somehow provides.
Why in the hell do people need religion. Why is it so important? The majority of those who're religious say "so long as you go to church" or don't care what religious affiliation you have, so long as you believe in god. Any other option that doesn't include "believing in god" (and Jesus for Christians) is "wrong". If you can accept another religious view, why can't you accept a non-religious view.
I've been sitting in Church lately since I've been spending the weekend with my religious aunts and grandmother. The pastor says all the religious stories about accepting god and accepting Jesus as your savior. Then he goes on to talk about nonbelievers saying they're always angry. Basically, he was saying if Jesus isn't in your heart, then the devil is. I was thinking, "Wait a minute, just because I don't hold the same belief as you I somehow have something evil inside of me".
I'm just really torn up right now. My family is so religious that I'm afraid to tell them how I feel about religion and what I believe. My eldest aunt is so religious I swear she's a nut. But I can't bring myself to say anything to her because while I think she's a little crazy in her religion, she's a sincere person and just wants to make everyone happy. Right now, religion is so ingrained in people that anything other than religion is simply unacceptable.
The pastor was going on about all the other happy, smiling girls who came to Church. (A little creepy yes.) But I was the only one who wasn't smiling. It's just that I feel so alone in Church. I can't say anything. I'm nonreligious, and even when I try to get it out of my life it comes storming back in. Either by going to Church with my family, or having some kids knock on my apartment door trying to tell me about god. I know, they're just children. I don't judge them. It's just that I'm so afraid that my family will think completely different of me. They love me, yes. But they won't respect me anymore. They'll think, "I love her, but she needs to get right with god . . . oh, she's a good kid, but this or that".
When I was a kid I had the same problem. 
Nowadays when my parents invite me to church, I never go in. I never listen. I just stay outside and graze around in the midst of numerous small food vendors (a common sight especially within church grounds), particularly selling peanuts, cotton candy, and these:
yum.
| JessieF wrote: | | The pastor was going on about all the other happy, smiling girls who came to Church. (A little creepy yes.) But I was the only one who wasn't smiling. It's just that I feel so alone in Church. I can't say anything. I'm nonreligious, and even when I try to get it out of my life it comes storming back in. Either by going to Church with my family, or having some kids knock on my apartment door trying to tell me about god. I know, they're just children. I don't judge them. It's just that I'm so afraid that my family will think completely different of me. They love me, yes. But they won't respect me anymore. They'll think, "I love her, but she needs to get right with god . . . oh, she's a good kid, but this or that". |
This is really difficult. And not unique. I was also in that boat, but can't recall that it really bothered me as much, I generally found it hilarious, but then my parents were quite tolerant of my views to a certain extent. My dad was an atheist (without making statements about it in public), my mom was religious (the non-preaching variety) and now and then got emotional with me. I found the religion that was being practiced in the small town I grew up in very narrow-minded and hypocritical. Sin from Monday to Saturday, and repent on Sunday. The preaching often referred to all the sinners outside the church and that just did not make sense to me at all. I remember once when the town called on everyone to go to church to pray for rain. And apparently the minister during the gathering my family attended referred to those sinners outside who were not in church being partially responsible for there not being rain. My mom must have been very moved by the sermon, as she completely vented at me when they got home, that was quite unique for her however as she was very tolerant of others' views, in fact more tolerant than my dad used to be. I did not think that it was a gathering that I wanted to be part off. My dad's criticism was more along the practical lines of "what people might think and making oneself less acceptable to them".
Your situation is of course unique and your family may not be as tolerant as mine have been. In our family in matters like these it was OK to have a different opinion (in moderation of course). And important to respect those with different opinions to our own. Like my dad, I kept my opinions to myself and never really felt it necessary to make it an issue with people who are clearly of a different thinking. It would have been both pointless and discourteous. Maybe I also was lucky, as no one pointed fingers at me as well, although they might have, and I was not focussed on it, my focus was more on getting out of that town as soon as I could. I left it within a month of my graduation from school.
Religion is a personal thing. You don't haveto show it to everyone. You don't have to discuss it with everyone. And you don't have to force people into it!
It is a common scenario. My father was very religious and I know it hurt him when I decided, as a teenager, that I didn't share his beliefs. The choice I faced - and the choice you face - is whether to 'pretend' in order to keep things as they are, or whether to be honest and risk alienating your relatives. I chose the latter option, and stuck to it. I tried not to raise religion as an issue, because I knew it was hurtful, but whenever it WAS raised, I simply explained that I didn't share his beliefs and that it would be hypocritical of me to pretend otherwise.
It wasn't easy, but eventually we reached a sort of 'truce' and didn't discuss it anymore.
| goutha wrote: | | Religion is a personal thing. You don't haveto show it to everyone. You don't have to discuss it with everyone. And you don't have to force people into it! |
I don't force anything on anyone. I feel like it's being shoved down my throat since everyone is telling me how I can "get to know Jesus" so I can "go to heaven". Automatically assuming I even care about it. What I care about is my family. Family means everything to me. But honesty is another thing that means everything to me. It'll hurt my family to be honest with them, and it'll hurt me to not be honest. I guess my mom already kind of thinks my brother and I aren't religious. Sometimes an argument over religion flares up. I just don't like to say I know something when I can't possibly know, such as even the existence of god. I don't know, and neither do I care. But it means a lot to my family. I know running away isn't the answer. I don't want to turn my back on my family if they can't accept what I believe.
I know very well that my step-dad is open minded. He'll accept me no matter what I believe. But he does believe in god. Every time something good happens my mom says "thank you Jesus" over and over. It's annoying but I don't say anything because, 1 it is HER belief & 2 she would get angry with me.
One of my aunts believes in god so much, she believes god game her the ability to play the piano and some other woman to play a tuba. To me, that's irrational. You don't learn anything by "magic". You learn it by practicing constantly.
| JessieF wrote: | | One of my aunts believes in god so much, she believes god game her the ability to play the piano and some other woman to play a tuba. To me, that's irrational. You don't learn anything by "magic". You learn it by practicing constantly. |
That is what really annoys me about some religious people. My abilities in math is a gift from God. Certainly, you can't give my dad any credit, who introduced and explained math to me at a young age and in such an interesting way that I became interested. It also can't have anything to do with me practicing it, and putting some hard work into learning it.
Or when there was a plane crash but every one survived. Well, why don't we give God all the credit? How about the rescue team who risked their lives to save these people? You don't even think of thanking the one who just save you, because it's all God's work anyways?
This, of course, does not only apply to religious people (even though they're much more common to do it). My good VO2 max level (I think that's the english word for it) came from orienteering. Cause if you orientate, you don't even have to train frequently to improve it. No hard work involved at all. It comes magically and instantly.
| catscratches wrote: | | JessieF wrote: | | One of my aunts believes in god so much, she believes god game her the ability to play the piano and some other woman to play a tuba. To me, that's irrational. You don't learn anything by "magic". You learn it by practicing constantly. |
That is what really annoys me about some religious people. My abilities in math is a gift from God. Certainly, you can't give my dad any credit, who introduced and explained math to me at a young age and in such an interesting way that I became interested. It also can't have anything to do with me practicing it, and putting some hard work into learning it.
Or when there was a plane crash but every one survived. Well, why don't we give God all the credit? How about the rescue team who risked their lives to save these people? You don't even think of thanking the one who just save you, because it's all God's work anyways?
This, of course, does not only apply to religious people (even though they're much more common to do it). My good VO2 max level (I think that's the english word for it) came from orienteering. Cause if you orientate, you don't even have to train frequently to improve it. No hard work involved at all. It comes magically and instantly. |
I can see where you're getting at. Religious people continue to say, everything that has happened which was positive is a gift from god and exclude factors which say, god didn't do it and it was through determination and hard work. But what about the people who are born really smart? Is it a genetic mutation or a gift from god?
How about all the negatives? Like murders, car crashes, natural disasters which killed innocent people? Is that a gift from god too? It's annoying because whenever you ask them, what about them? They say, "it's all apart of gods divine plan" which to me is saying, because god has a divine plan, we can justify murders and abortions.
It really to me, doesn't sound right at all.
The credits go to . . . by Bluedoll
God agrees with you on that one, religion can be a pain for people and for God too - doesn’t like it either. Religion is sometimes a curse when it is in your face and a source of annoyance. Religion shouldn’t stop you from believing in what you want to believe in and living the kind of life you want. The reason however religion had never been perfect is because it is being administered by people. Some times, people simply mess up.
I do agree we should never feel it is being forced on us nor be turned off by it but it can happen just like with other things, politics, peer pressure, etc.
That, attitude of God made it all happen, I think, is miss-constructed and way over done. People make things happen, stuff makes things happen. If we can play the piano, we did the work to get there. Now the fact that maybe our father helped us sometimes or even paid for a few lessons and actually was responsible for us being here in the first place is a factor but when it comes right down to it, we did the practice, we deserve the credit!
Now, when it comes time to thank someone on honour night and we are looking at the audience with our award in our hands we can choose to say I did it all or we can thank someone. It is our choice. If we believe, we have a father that helped us and cares about us then we can say thanks to him. I still think though even if we thank our dad, we received the reward because we are the one that actually practiced and played.
| Bluedoll wrote: | | Now, when it comes time to thank someone on honour night and we are looking at the audience with our award in our hands we can choose to say |
Hey Bluedoll, that's a real good post an' Imma let you finish, but goutha had one of the BEST posts of all time!...
Seriously though, I couldn't resist.
Religion shouldn't be pushed on people, but some religious groups would disagree. Not that they come right out and say "You need to be converted", but many sects of Christianity truly believe that conversion is 'part and parcel' of their religion. It goes under the flag of 'spreading the Gospel'. It can be annoying sometimes, but it will not go away. Ever.
The best way to deal with it is, in my opinion, to simply ignore it. I have different ways of dealing with the door to door 'salespeople of God'. For the JW's, I tell them I was excommunicated from the Kingdom Hall. They don't even respond with any comments, they just turn around and walk away. Most of the time though, when someone approaches me in public, and tries to sell me religion, I don't even look at them. I pretend they aren't even there.
| Ophois wrote: | | that's a real good post an' Imma let you |
geee suks thanks...
gotta remembeer yat 2, yah just ignore, yah good idea will try that!
Religion is in our genetic code!
So how do you get rid of a genetic code????
You alter it! The only way to get rid of religion is by genetic engineering!
| spinout wrote: | Religion is in our genetic code!
So how do you get rid of a genetic code???? |
Why do people say this?
Did you see the BULLSHIT that was about the Vatican City? OR did you watch the Richard Dawkins program last night on c4? 
| liljp617 wrote: | | spinout wrote: | Religion is in our genetic code!
So how do you get rid of a genetic code???? |
Why do people say this? |
Because every group of humans we've come across, left to their own devices, will formulate some kind of religion. I'd be interesting to experiment on that, to see how a religion first forms... we'd have to separate a bunch of uneducated children and just leave them to raise themselves to find out though.
| spinout wrote: | | So how do you get rid of a genetic code???? |
Easy... Make religion detrimental to the body and let natural selection take care of business... (not that I'm condoning the death of all religious people... I'm just answering a question)...
| spinout wrote: | Religion is in our genetic code!
So how do you get rid of a genetic code????
You alter it! The only way to get rid of religion is by genetic engineering! |
Nononono...Religion is not in the genetic code - that is silly. It implies that belief in God is coded, which I find a ridiculous concept in terms of evolutionary biology. What IS, it appears, coded, is the propensity to look for explanations of perceived natural events, and to assign some 'agency' to those events. You should read Daniel Dennett for a deeper explanation of this. I'll just give the short version.
There are 3 ways of looking at the world - 3 'stances' you can adopt. The physical, the design and the intentional.
The physical stance involves looking at the physics - how does it work? Measure it. Test it.
The design stance involves looking at what it appears to be designed to do. This is a short-cut. Looking at the physics is detailed and takes time. Assuming it is designed means you can concentrate on the function, rather than the detail of the bits.
The intentional stance involves assigning an intention to the event and acting according to that intention.
Now, imagine our primitive ancestor. He meets a large carnivore.
He could adopt a physical stance - hmm, those are large teeth and large claws. I shall measure those and compare with other species I know, and.....(at this point the reflection ends in a contented munching sound....)
He could adopt a design stance - hmm, those large teeth and large claws appear to conform to a general design principle. Perhaps the design is to do with killing.....(at this point, if our caveman is REALLY sharp he will be running, but chances are there will also be the contented munching sound)
He could adopt the intentional stance - hmm, this bugger intends to eat me...I'm off.
Now, which stance is more likely to result in our hero living to have kids? Obviously the intentional stance.
The drawback is that this genetically predisposes the whole 'intentional' mechanism. We naturally, therefore, apply it to everything.
Our hero experiences a thunderstorm - clearly there is an intent here - what is it?
Our hero has a particularly successful hunt - clearly there is an intent here....
Now, with 'intent' goes 'agency'. The thing which has the intent.
Therefore our hero assigns this intent to some agency. The earliest religions we have any information on tend to assume that this agency is some visible entity - the sun, planets, rock formations etc. As religion gets more sophisticated then the agency also becomes more sophisticated. It is difficult to maintain that the Sun is divine when you develop a better understanding of climate and agriculture. You need a more 'sophisticated' God - or you need many Gods. Thus we get pantheism and eventually a complex mono-theism in which the 'agency' becomes the most sophisticated thing we know - ourselves. Thus we get Christianity, and the idea of man made in God's image and Jesus, the physical manifestation of God in human form.
So no, religion is not genetically coded. If that were so then it would be very difficult to explain why I am a fairly convinced atheist and my father was such a convinced catholic. It is hard to believe that the genetic code for his beliefs would not have been passed on to me....
What appears to be hard-coded is a propensity to assign intent, and therefore agency, to natural events.
Communism made religion go away and did communism do well without religion?
| angfrayle wrote: | | Communism made religion go away and did communism do well without religion? |
Communism did not make religion go away. The early revolutionary leaders - up to Stalin - tried to suppress the Russian Orthodox Church but it never really 'went away'.
Did the USSR do well without religion? Not too bad, I would say. It wasn't until well after the communist party had done with suppressing the churches that the institutional failings of the state, coupled with the economic cost of trying to match the US, finally made collapse inevitable. People tend to forget exactly what the USSR DID achieve - particularly during and after WW2. It turned from a third-world peasant country into a superpower in a very short time.
| Bikerman wrote: |
Did the USSR do well without religion? Not too bad, I would say. It wasn't until well after the communist party had done with suppressing the churches that the institutional failings of the state, coupled with the economic cost of trying to match the US, finally made collapse inevitable. People tend to forget exactly what the USSR DID achieve - particularly during and after WW2. It turned from a third-world peasant country into a superpower in a very short time. |
Over the lives of many... Have you read Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago?
| angfrayle wrote: | | Bikerman wrote: |
Did the USSR do well without religion? Not too bad, I would say. It wasn't until well after the communist party had done with suppressing the churches that the institutional failings of the state, coupled with the economic cost of trying to match the US, finally made collapse inevitable. People tend to forget exactly what the USSR DID achieve - particularly during and after WW2. It turned from a third-world peasant country into a superpower in a very short time. |
Over the lives of many... Have you read Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago? |
No I haven't, but I'm aware of the general story and can make an intelligent guess about the horrors contained.
I am not seeking to either defend or praise Stalin, merely to point out that the USSR should be seen in the round, rather than the simplistic picture normally painted.
| angfrayle wrote: | | Bikerman wrote: |
Did the USSR do well without religion? Not too bad, I would say. It wasn't until well after the communist party had done with suppressing the churches that the institutional failings of the state, coupled with the economic cost of trying to match the US, finally made collapse inevitable. People tend to forget exactly what the USSR DID achieve - particularly during and after WW2. It turned from a third-world peasant country into a superpower in a very short time. |
Over the lives of many... |
As every superpower in history...
This thought has been in my mind a bit lately.
What would be the effect of removing certain religions from the world?
For example if Hinduism and all the Hindu's disappeared what effects would it have, both good and bad?
My view is this. If you removed any of the religions from the earth it would have a negative effect to at least some extent. Christian aid groups, Hindu colorful ceremonies and festivals and their positive attitude to protecting animals, Buddhism's philosophy of peace and harmony they all exert a positive influence with little negative effect.
All except one, Islam.
It seems to me that if you removed Islam from the world a large part of the terrorism and hatred would be removed without loosing anything positive. What does Islam contribute to the happiness of the world, particularly to the non muslims?
| paul_indo wrote: |
All except one, Islam.
It seems to me that if you removed Islam from the world a large part of the terrorism and hatred would be removed without loosing anything positive. What does Islam contribute to the happiness of the world, particularly to the non muslims? |
Very politically incorrect, but you may have a point, though I'm sure a devout Muslim could find something that could be said to benefit the world outside of Islam itself.
It would be an enormous violation of peoples' religious freedom to 'get rid of' any religion that didn't contribute to those outside of it.
| paul_indo wrote: | | It seems to me that if you removed Islam from the world a large part of the terrorism and hatred would be removed without loosing anything positive. What does Islam contribute to the happiness of the world, particularly to the non muslims? |
I totally disagree with this. It is not Islam that is responsible for terrorism, it is people who use Islam for a purpose that it is not supposed to be used. Those responsible for terrorism has to be a fraction of Muslim people in the world and the fraction that the media seems to be mostly preoccupied with and that people hear about the most. The majority are peace loving people. Normal people like you and me who happen to have a different religion.
| paul_indo wrote: | All except one, Islam.
It seems to me that if you removed Islam from the world a large part of the terrorism and hatred would be removed without loosing anything positive. What does Islam contribute to the happiness of the world, particularly to the non muslims? |
http://www.google.com/search?q=islamic+charity+organizations&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Simple 2 second search will yield answers.
But sure, I think overall the world would be more positive without just about every major religion, especially the Abrahamic. Personal opinion. I can't think of a necessary task religion addresses that couldn't be just as or better accomplished by a non-religious organization*
*Discussed in the past here: http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-103065.html
Terrorists use religion as an excuse to spread hate... Fanatical followers usually leave their holy books behind them when they join such associates...
I am using this purely as a hypothetical situation.
What I realised after I wrote it was that I didn't make my point clear.
What I meant was to be as if the said religion had never existed It's followers would still be here but the religious beliefs would not exist anywhere, therefore they would have a totally different world view.
You may say we would be best off without Christianity or some other religion. that is your perogative.
I am simply pondering the effect and that is my conclusion, so far.
| paul_indo wrote: | I am using this purely as a hypothetical situation.
What I realised after I wrote it was that I didn't make my point clear.
What I meant was to be as if the said religion had never existed It's followers would still be here but the religious beliefs would not exist anywhere, therefore they would have a totally different world view.
You may say we would be best off without Christianity or some other religion. that is your perogative.
I am simply pondering the effect and that is my conclusion, so far. |
You don't think your conclusion is a bit warped given you implied Islam provides nothing positive to the world (which is clearly incorrect)?
Well maybe you could give me some examples to change my conclusion?
And no I wouldn't say it is warped. Many westerners these days seem to have a negative opinion of all religion and believe we would be better off without any religion in the world. I am merely considering the implications of those views but on a religion by religion basis as I don't believe it is reasonable to judge them all as being the same. Although maybe they are correct that the world would be better without religion.
But as I said please give me some examples of what Islam contributes to the worlds well being.
| paul_indo wrote: | Well maybe you could give me some examples to change my conclusion?
And no I wouldn't say it is warped. Many westerners these days seem to have a negative opinion of all religion and believe we would be better off without any religion in the world. I am merely considering the implications of those views but on a religion by religion basis as I don't believe it is reasonable to judge them all as being the same. Although maybe they are correct that the world would be better without religion.
But as I said please give me some examples of what Islam contributes to the worlds well being. |
Many Islamic countries were on the cutting edge of science, mathematics, philosophy, and art while most of Europe was still stuck in the dark ages. So while Christianity was holding back Europe, Islam was molding a culture that was responsible for quite a bit of development.
However, you can argue over how much Islam actually helped these cultures vs. how much they would have developed without it. But you can do the same with Christianity, or any religion, and then sit around thinking "what good has come from any religion?"
But then again, Islam is, at its core, a much more peaceful religion than Christianity of Judaism. The Koran (from what I remember from the parts that I've read) does promote charitable giving and many good acts which Muslims have followed over the years...
So given that, at its core, Islam is more peaceful than both Christianity and Judaism, and that the death toll of Christianity and Islam are both high and probably pretty similar, I would argue that Islam has done much more for the world than Christianity has...
However, I personally believe that all religion is crap and that we'd be much better off without it. The little good that does come from it (I am sure that there are some Muslims and Christians who only do good because of their religion) is far outweighed by all the bad that comes from religion. I would say that the only real good that comes from religion that we wouldn't have otherwise is art (well we'd still have art, of course, but it would be much different and I'm not sure if it would be better or not).
| paul_indo wrote: | Well maybe you could give me some examples to change my conclusion?
And no I wouldn't say it is warped. Many westerners these days seem to have a negative opinion of all religion and believe we would be better off without any religion in the world. I am merely considering the implications of those views but on a religion by religion basis as I don't believe it is reasonable to judge them all as being the same. Although maybe they are correct that the world would be better without religion.
But as I said please give me some examples of what Islam contributes to the worlds well being. |
I already did a few posts up: http://www.google.com/search?q=islamic+charity+organizations&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
155,000 hits on "Islamic charity organizations"
You want direct information? Okay, I'll click on the first link in the search for you:
| Quote: | 1. Islamic Relief
Islamic Relief is an international relief and development organization with permanent offices in 35 countries. Islamic Relief's USA office has been given a 4-star rating by Charity Navigator. Islamic Relief works in partnership with other international aid organizations, church groups, and local relief agencies in the areas they serve.
2. Life for Relief and Development (LIFE)
A non-governmental organization founded by Iraqi-American professionals in 1992, now providing humanitarian assistance to people in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Palestinian Territories, Jordan, Pakistan, and Sierra Leone. Charity Navigator rates LIFE as a 4-star charity, their top ranking. The LIFE website provides copies of their credentials with the US government and the United Nations, and registration documents for the countries in which they work.
3. Muslim Aid
Muslim Aid aims to provide emergency, long-term assistance and other charitable work to alleviate the pain of those suffering and in need of relief. Their focus is on sustainable development programs which tackle the root causes of poverty.
4. International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies
There are 186 National Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies around the world, forming a network of volunteers and staff who have provided humanitarian services worldwide since 1919. The Red Crescent is used in place of the Red Cross in many Islamic countries, and all societies provide assistance without discrimination as to nationality, race, religious beliefs, class, or political opinions. Each national society is independent and supports the public authorities in their own country, with local knowledge and expertise, infrastructure, and access.
5. ICNA Relief
A program of the Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), ICNA Relief is a humanitarian relief and development organization which responds to emergency and disaster situations at home and abroad. ICNA Relief runs special programs to help the needy in poor neighborhoods within North America. |
A few examples of the many you could easily find if you wanted to.
Well lilutejp617 I guess you are right then. I admit that Islam does contribute. Although I live in a country with a population of 200 million muslims and I really don't actually see much evidence on the ground. Maybe that's just Indonesia though.
I think I am still leaning towards John Lennon and those who believe we are better off without religion though although Buddhism seems pretty harmless to me.
I think the negatives overall probably outweigh the positives if you take all religions combined.
| paul_indo wrote: | | I think the negatives overall probably outweigh the positives if you take all religions combined. |
I guess that has to be in the eye of the beholder. For me the positives outweigh the negatives. In overall, I see happy Islam people who feel they have purpose and meaning in their lives and know exactly where they are going to end up. The negatives are really very bad, but a lot of that is thanks to the media. Good and positive news is no news really.
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