A discussion started in a different thread in the Politics Forum:
http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-110081-4.html
on at what point the US debts can be called in by China for example? Do you have any views on this? The part that I cannot understand is that there is no clear picture of what point those loans become due, or whether they would ever become due? So perhaps theoretically, the US citizens' indebtedness is not limited to the US, but it is making debtors of the whole world? The financial system is not only in a rut in the US, but the whole world is in a rut, and by the list of people that the US owe so much debt to, possibly those are the people who are living within their means, but they are catching up fast. What would happen if everyone owes everyone, what would the collateral be at that stage? Would that be the point where everything collapses?
| deanhills wrote: |
| I've always wondered about this, and maybe you can comment on this, the US debt is owned by the rest of the world. China owns about 25% of that debt. If I were to owe someone that amount of debt, I would not be able to sleep at night, especially if their Government policies are in conflict of mine. How does this work? If I were to be a private individual, the bank would be able to call in my loans at any time. Can China do that, call in its loans, and what do you think would the effect of it be? Or can the US continue with ad infinitum trillions of debt? It's just a paper tiger growing bigger and bigger? |
| Alaskacameradude wrote: |
This question is a little more complicated. Yes, I do worry a little about us owing all that
money to China. But it is a little more complicated than that. Although China and the US are NOT
on great terms, the LAST thing China wants is for the US economy to crash. Could China 'call in'
it's loans to the US? I would guess it is theoretically possible. But think how interrelated the whole
world's economic system is now. If the US economy was to crash, what would happen. Well first off, I bet there would be a LOT of Chinese product that would not get bought......stuff that the US
usually would be buying. See, this is a tricky situation, and China could crash their OWN economy by 'calling in the loans'......
As for how long this can go on.....who knows? I have a friend that has been in college for 12 years
because he owes so much in student loans that he doesn't want to stop going to college......once
he stops going to school he has to start paying off the student loans. How is he funding his
'continuing' education? Student loans. At some point, they are going to come due, and by
putting off the 'pain' now, he is making it worse for later. We as a country are doing much the
same. I cringe when I read, that our children will have a 30% lower standard of living than
we do, because we will be having to make so much payments in just INTEREST on our national
debt. We are supposed to be sacrificing to make life for our children BETTER than ours......not
handing them some huge national debt......well, in my opinion at least. |
The debt doesn't actually exist. Its all a con. The money doesn't exist.
| lagoon wrote: |
| The debt doesn't actually exist. Its all a con. The money doesn't exist. |
Right! Reminds me of that Ceaser story, when his fashion designer provided him with a novel new "dress", that no one could see. Which actually was nothing, except the fashion designer got to convince the ceaser and everyone else that the Ceaser is wearing a beautiful dress. So when the Ceaser walked down the aisle, completely naked, everyone was oohing and aahing over his dress. Until someone shouted, "but the Ceaser is naked" .... so wonder how long this spiralling debt issue will continue, until someone comes up with some of the same ... 
Never. The day it does, the value of the debt is worthless. | deanhills wrote: |
| lagoon wrote: | | The debt doesn't actually exist. Its all a con. The money doesn't exist. |
Right! Reminds me of that Ceaser story, when his fashion designer provided him with a novel new "dress", that no one could see. Which actually was nothing, except the fashion designer got to convince the ceaser and everyone else that the Ceaser is wearing a beautiful dress. So when the Ceaser walked down the aisle, completely naked, everyone was oohing and aahing over his dress. Until someone shouted, "but the Ceaser is naked" .... so wonder how long this spiralling debt issue will continue, until someone comes up with some of the same ... |
BTW, the story is a Children's tale by Hans Christian Andersen. You mixed up cultures by a few hundred miles. Buy buy us . . . by Bluedoll
Debts are always called in but not by a tiny little man with a very stern face pointing to an i-o-u slip but by trade advantages.
For myself, it is difficult to relate to countries financial like I would to my own tiny finances. So in order to relate to the big numbers let us create a fiction scenario here.
They own an island on the pacific called Dominite Island. They are constantly building new resorts which puts them deep into dept but the people that live on the island the GDP’s (Good Dominite People) are happy and so this advantage attracts new vacationers to the island.
Lately, however on the island, there is a lot of concern because the GDP are less happy, vacationers are not coming, a Tsunami has reeked the beach, the weather is acting funny and there isn’t much room to build any more hotels.
Do they open the door with lower prices or struggle along with less stuff which they need from the mainland’s? What is the solution?
I am not sure but now outsiders are buying up the island property cheaply and the GDP’s have all gone fishing.
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Actually the USA is doing well in relation with other countries because of its' GDP.
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reference:
http://useconomy.about.com/od/grossdomesticproduct/f/GDP_Components.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pub_deb-economy-public-debt Umm guys...
Isn't that what happened in the US just now for our global recession?
They had debt. People bought mortgages they couldn't pay. People took out loans they couldn't pay. And finally, enough people couldn't pay them that the companies couldn't pay, and that's how the whole thing started.
So seriously, don't take out a loan if you can't pay for it. In fact, there are very few cases when you should take out a loan. Save your money instead!
Maybe the US can sell China some of it's "bad" debt like the banks have done recently.
| standready wrote: |
| Maybe the US can sell China some of it's "bad" debt like the banks have done recently. |
China is already one of the two main owners of US debt! (Along with Japan.) | azoundria wrote: |
| So seriously, don't take out a loan if you can't pay for it. In fact, there are very few cases when you should take out a loan. Save your money instead! |
That's just the point. The Government is taking out huge loans, so how come the little guy has to watch his pennies, however Big Government is continuing on making huge debt, without buckling in. Being into the trillions right now. | deanhills wrote: |
| azoundria wrote: | | So seriously, don't take out a loan if you can't pay for it. In fact, there are very few cases when you should take out a loan. Save your money instead! |
That's just the point. The Government is taking out huge loans, so how come the little guy has to watch his pennies, however Big Government is continuing on making huge debt, without buckling in. Being into the trillions right now. |
Because you are allowing them too!Taking loans seem to be bad, but our complete economic system is build on it. Because if you lent money, you can pay for example for a car. So the car seller is happy, he made money, the car builder aswel, the seller buys an new one. The factory workers get more paid, spent more.... the man who lent gets money. So if the workers for example do not spent their money but save it for later on, the man could get in trouble. And overall there's less welfare. So spending is the way the system works. What went wrong? The banks lent too much to some people...
However, Obama spent too much, but if the economy is doing better, taxes can rise (they have to) and debts are decreased. This crisis will be known for years.
| LumberJack wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: | | azoundria wrote: | | So seriously, don't take out a loan if you can't pay for it. In fact, there are very few cases when you should take out a loan. Save your money instead! |
That's just the point. The Government is taking out huge loans, so how come the little guy has to watch his pennies, however Big Government is continuing on making huge debt, without buckling in. Being into the trillions right now. |
Because you are allowing them too! |
I'm not 'allowing them to'... They're doing it despite my efforts to stop them. | ocalhoun wrote: |
| LumberJack wrote: | | deanhills wrote: | | azoundria wrote: | | So seriously, don't take out a loan if you can't pay for it. In fact, there are very few cases when you should take out a loan. Save your money instead! |
That's just the point. The Government is taking out huge loans, so how come the little guy has to watch his pennies, however Big Government is continuing on making huge debt, without buckling in. Being into the trillions right now. |
Because you are allowing them too! |
I'm not 'allowing them to'... They're doing it despite my efforts to stop them. |
Maybe Lumberjack meant a collective "you", i.e. the Nation, rather than one person specifically. Perhaps he is right in that? I still can't believe how very fast, and how very EASILY the bail-out package of 1.2-trillion got passed in January. Also however very EASILY debts are approved. Almost like US citizens have given their Government a "blank cheque" with almost no stumbling blocks in the way. | azoundria wrote: |
| So seriously, don't take out a loan if you can't pay for it. In fact, there are very few cases when you should take out a loan. Save your money instead! |
In fact, that's the absolute worst thing you can do. By the US being in a lot of debt, it means that there's bucketloads of cash circulating the US economy -- creating economic growth, and furthering their economic development. Whilst it likely will have less significant repercussions, they'll be just that -- less significant.
Conversely, if everybody were to save their money and not spend it (thus removing it from the circular flow of income), you'd end up with the exact economic troubles the US has now. Less money circulating the economy is a leakage, and basically results in a downward spiral for the economic growth of the US (note: recession).
Take for example student loans. You take a loan, and become in debt -- but by the time you pay that loan back, you're likely making substantially more money (even with inflation) than you would be before you took it, and thus now you've both been able to pay back the loan easier and placed yourself in a better position to repay future loans.I've not heard of any debt principle being paid off. I don't know if these notes are like interest only loans or if there is an eventual balloon due. Even with interest only loans, this ponzi scheme the government and unions are running is doomed to collapse by design. It's the only way to have a global redistribution of wealth. What are the sign posts and precursors to the collapse of the ponzi bubble.
Inflation will indicate the tipping point. Inflation has to start kicking in at some point from all this reckless spending and money printing. In fact, it seems as though they are counting on inflation so they can try and pay the debt down with worthless dollars.
One school of thought is to pay off everything you can and invest in recession resistant savings and survival gear and goods.
Another strategy could be to follow suite with the government. Go in debt as much as possible in anticipation of inflation to pay it off with devalued money. Maybe even go in debt to invest in the same stocks as some of the politicians are invested in.
| jwellsy wrote: |
| Maybe even go in debt to invest in the same stocks as some of the politicians are invested in. |
Bad idea; they'll sell it just before it tanks, based on insider (or at least up-to-the-second) information. After people see the fat cats selling it, it will become worthless very quickly.
I've made my opinion on economic crash survival in another thread in this section... Properly stored bullets will never be worthless, no matter what the economy does. | Hogwarts wrote: |
| azoundria wrote: | | So seriously, don't take out a loan if you can't pay for it. In fact, there are very few cases when you should take out a loan. Save your money instead! |
In fact, that's the absolute worst thing you can do. By the US being in a lot of debt, it means that there's bucketloads of cash circulating the US economy -- creating economic growth, and furthering their economic development. Whilst it likely will have less significant repercussions, they'll be just that -- less significant. |
For now, perhaps. But it is coming at the price of being beholden to China and Japan. Let's see where that is going to lead the world in future? Maybe in a century from now when history is written, it would have a long story about how the economy was one of conning everyone by pretending there was money when there was actually none. And finally all of it had to collapse one day when people lost their trust in their Governments to look after them. Because that is basically how the debt is sustained at the moment. People are closing their eyes and giving their Governments blank cheques to make as much debt as they can get away with, and your theory is a very popular one for justifying the debt economy. | deanhills wrote: |
| and your theory is a very popular one for justifying the debt economy. |
Where's the problem there? It's absolutely logical if you've studied economics. | Hogwarts wrote: |
| deanhills wrote: | | and your theory is a very popular one for justifying the debt economy. |
Where's the problem there? It's absolutely logical if you've studied economics. |
Why would it only be logical for someone who studied economics? What economics do you refer to? An undergraduate degree course at University, or a career that is allied to the economy? That part definitely does not make sense to me as there are people who have been part of the economy without any formal study of economics who did pretty good for themselves.
With regard to the "bigger" picture of making debt in order to make money. I don't think it takes a degree in economics to grasp that sooner or later something has to give in this equation. What props it up at the moment is lots of brainwashing and following the "financial gurus" and "economists" as well as "politicians" who have the ability to pursuade people that that is in their own good interest, so that they can surrender a blank trust for Government to go into more debt. I think that is exactly what happened from September 2008 to January 2009 leading up to the 1.2 trillion bailout package. For me the "bubble" has just been given another boost and lease of life. Time will tell how great the economists have been for the period of the last two centuries. So far I don't see anything really great that came from it except an enormous gap between the very rich and the very poor, the economists of course arguing on the side of the very rich, the middle class and the poor just being plain "dumb" of course although handy to have around as consumers and taxpayers.OK thanks Ocalhoun for saying like it is!!
This scene isn't my fault nor anyone elses that is a US citizen and votes. The system has failed, just try contacting you congressmen, house reps, or senators and asking the to vote or not vote a certain way on any bills........you will get no where, and they will vote how they want.
The system has failed and the elected officials no longer represent the people who elect them. So what's the answer? Impeachment, revolution, marital law....where do we go from here?
Not to mentiont he fact that the monetary system is a DEBTOR SYSTEM and cannot help itself and will in all scenarios fail at some point.
Here is why!
Federal Reserve Bank which is NOT A GOVERNMENT ENTITY is the central bank. US Department of engraving and printing prints the money. They sell it at about 7 cents per bill (DOES NOT MATTER THE DENOMINATION) to the Federal Reserve Banks. The Federal reserve then lends out that money at face value plus interest to the banks, which are allowed to lend up to 7 times their cash reserves out to bank memebers.
Where the national debt comes from is that the Government approves it's budget, say they need 500 billion dollars, they then turn to the Federal Reserve Bank for this money. The Fed Reserve then turns to the IRS it's subsidery organization and the IRS tells them....we collected 400 billion in taxes. so we will give you that, and we will now lend you the 100 billion extra you need with interest attached.
So in essence we the people and the government print the money, sell it at face value to the federal reserve, who then lends it back to us at face value plus interest.......GOTTA LOVE IT!!
Plus the IRS is NOT A GOVERNMENT ENTITY EITHER....they are a private corporation operating out of (I Think) Puerto Rico, and never once since their creation around 1920 have they ever reported to congress or the American people, how much they actually collected in taxes as compared to how much they gave back to the US Government. AND THEY ARE A PRIVATE CORPORATION, so the operate at a profit!!
Plus since the federal reserve as well as all the banks are allowed to lend out 7 times the value of the cash on hand, and they lend that oiut with interest attached, even if all the banks called in all the debt, there is no possible way yo collect that money because it is physically NOT THERE!!!
I can't remember the actual numbers, as it has been some years since I researched this for my class on economics, but I think that if the recalled all the cash ever printed it would only equalt like 1/100th of the natinal debt.
With a system like that, there is no way it can ever do anything but fail...in essence the Federal Reserve and the member banks have created a debt that can NEVER EVER be repaid.
Now knowing all this I always ask the question......How can I set myself up to buy cash at 7 cents per bill.......I'd be happy to empty out my change jar and go by a bunch of 100 dollar bills
@BigGeek. I read your posting with great interest. Wow! A company in Puerto Rico. And not reporting to anyone specific? I also like the identification of a "debtor" system, which is what it is. However in another thread someone is arguing that it is the debt that is enriching everyone in the system?
The part that has me confused in your posting however, if this were true, and this company is printing money as much as the US Government needs, how come the United States owe China and all the other countries so much money? Are you saying that the money that this company loans to the Government, i.e. the 100 billion dollars are over and above all the other loans that are raised through bonds etc?
