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Ocalhoun and Obama agree? Yes it IS possible!

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ocalhoun
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/18/obama-ties-immigration-to-health-care-battle/?feat=home_cube_position1

The article wrote:

President Obama said this week that his health care plan won't cover illegal immigrants, but argued that's all the more reason to legalize them and ensure they eventually do get coverage

Obama himself wrote:

I also don't simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken,

Obama himself wrote:

this debate underscores the necessity of passing comprehensive immigration reform and resolving the issue of 12 million undocumented people living and working in this country once and for all


Wow! I agree with Obama on something!
Though he supports it for the wrong reasons, making legal immigration easier will fix several of the country's biggest problems.
Almost worth having government health care, if that is included with it...
Afaceinthematrix
ocalhoun wrote:
Almost worth having government health care, if that is included with it...


Wow! You must feel strongly about making immigration easier if you're almost willing to compromise and get health care with the package.

Of course you did say once that if it was up to you, getting citizenshipsy (sp?) would be half an hour at the border...

I do agree that immigration reform is necessary. A lot of problems, that would go away if the illegals were legal, happen because of people here illegally.
ocalhoun
Afaceinthematrix wrote:

Of course you did say once that if it was up to you, getting citizenshipsy (sp?) would be half an hour at the border...
.

I do feel strongly about it.
Unless you are a terrorist, a fugitive, or a smuggler, you should be able to get a US citizenship, complete with all the rights of a natural-born citizen, in less than 30 minutes after crossing the border.

Problems this would greatly help with:
-Illegal immigrants stealing jobs by working below minimum wage
-Non-taxpayers getting tax funded benefits
-American companies outsourcing to find cheap labor
-Tax revenues falling
-Crime and drug use/sales
-Border security

Of course, there are those who, for some reason, think Mexicans (and other immigrants) aren't entitled to the rights they have... Their insistence upon keeping them from getting those rights legally has forced the immigrants to steal those rights, making it worse for everyone.

"But they'll work for minimum wage: I won't be able to get an above-minimum-wage job!"
Well, either, A) Learn to live on the minimum wage, B) Learn skills that make you more valuable, or C) Petition to get the minimum wage raised.
Afaceinthematrix
You're speaking to the choir. I also believe that many problems would be solve if illegal immigrants were legal citizens. One problem that you overlooked that's big where I live (but that's mostly because I live in Southern California, 90 miles North of Mexico in an area that's about 85% Hispanic) is illegal immigrants driving without a license and sometimes getting in accidents... This has happened to several people I know. They were hit by someone (one of my friends had his car completely totaled) who wasn't a citizen... Since they were illegal, they obviously didn't have a license which means that they also didn't have insurance... Since they aren't even supposed to be here, you cannot even take them to court... So you're basically screwed because your car was totaled in an accident that wasn't even your fault... If they were legal, they would probably have insurance and if they didn't, you could at least take them to court...
deanhills
I was thinking of you last night when I was watching the movie (a really poor one) with Harrison Ford in it: "Crossing Over". The film deals with the Mexican border, document fraud, the asylum and green card process, work-site enforcement, naturalization, the office of counter terrorism and clash of cultures. I can't believe I sat through it, but I was reminded of what you said, and the movie certainly highlighted all the problems. Smile

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0924129/synopsis
hunnyhiteshseth
ocalhoun wrote:

Problems this would greatly help with:
-Illegal immigrants stealing jobs by working below minimum wage

Quote:

-American companies outsourcing to find cheap labor


I think these two are mutually exclusive benefits. Both these cannot be achieved. If they won't be stealing jobs, then they would be working at minimum wage. But minimum wage of US being too high as compared to rest of the world, American companies will be forced to outsource to find INEXPENSIVE labour. To prevent outsourcing, minimum wages must be reduced but then for such low wages only poor immigrants will work and hence 'steal' American jobs.

Hence, US will be able to have only ONE of these benefits.
deanhills
hunnyhiteshseth wrote:
ocalhoun wrote:

Problems this would greatly help with:
-Illegal immigrants stealing jobs by working below minimum wage

Quote:

-American companies outsourcing to find cheap labor


I think these two are mutually exclusive benefits. Both these cannot be achieved. If they won't be stealing jobs, then they would be working at minimum wage. But minimum wage of US being too high as compared to rest of the world, American companies will be forced to outsource to find INEXPENSIVE labour. To prevent outsourcing, minimum wages must be reduced but then for such low wages only poor immigrants will work and hence 'steal' American jobs.

Hence, US will be able to have only ONE of these benefits.
Maybe illegal immigrants are a source of cheap labour. Maybe even American companies' way of outsourcing. I think both are possible because there is such a diversity of people all over the world that not only want to emigrate to the United States, but would do anything they can to get access to such opportunity by working below minimum wage. The American dream.
ocalhoun
hunnyhiteshseth wrote:
ocalhoun wrote:

Problems this would greatly help with:
-Illegal immigrants stealing jobs by working below minimum wage

Quote:

-American companies outsourcing to find cheap labor


I think these two are mutually exclusive benefits. Both these cannot be achieved. If they won't be stealing jobs, then they would be working at minimum wage. But minimum wage of US being too high as compared to rest of the world, American companies will be forced to outsource to find INEXPENSIVE labour. To prevent outsourcing, minimum wages must be reduced but then for such low wages only poor immigrants will work and hence 'steal' American jobs.

Hence, US will be able to have only ONE of these benefits.

It is, of course, relative.

Neither benefit will entirely eliminate either problem:
Companies will still outsource to hire under minimum wage.
Higher-paid workers will still be undercut by immigrants willing to work for minimum wage.

Each benefit would still occur though.
A factory about to be forced to outsource to keep up with the competition could lay off their $12/hr current employees and hire immigrants at $7/hr, which might save them enough money that they could afford to stay in the country.
Highly paid (overpaid) workers would still loose jobs or take pay cuts, but, if they are willing to adopt the same standard of living as the immigrants, then they should be able to afford to live on the same wages the immigrants get paid. (If you're getting paid a LOT of money for something a 'fresh-off-the-boat' immigrant could do, you know you're in trouble... Companies would probably still pay more for people with more training, superior performance, or more experience though.)
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